jointed rail vs CWR

[edblysard]

Trust me, that aint that bad at all...if the bolts in the joint bar are tight, I'd hit it 30...

One the other hand, this is what happens when the MOW guys let the bolts in a joint bar and in a guard rail get lose, and the track gages out...you end up picking a switch in a crossover.

Monday really sucked....

 

[wgnrr]

I have never seen stick rail on concrete ties; I suspose it would work, but what's the point of putting stick rail on a concrete tie? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of them?

Union Pacific uses 'gangs'. I believe the gang that took care of the CWR here was UP Gang 9001 out of Omaha, but I can't remember whether it was the 9001 or not (They have a few of them in the 9000 series)

UP is contracting out the removal of the old rail, plates, ect to the Tie Yard of Omaha, which uses it's own hy-rail crane/truck and a cart. I think that they have finished the clean-up here, but as far as I know, the truck is still sitting in Oxford.

Phil

[CNW 6000]

Very educational thread so far.

Would there be any reason to/not to put 'stick' rail on concrete ties?  I know I've seen CWR on wooden ties. 

As far as switches go, have there been any changes in how they're made that are noteworthy?  Or is that one of those 'it's not broken so why fix it' things?

[mudchicken]

Does each major 'sub' have it's own forces that do this work (rotating to where it needs to be done) or do the RRs contract out? 

The Class 1's and some of the Class 2's are still heavilly union, which implies a headquartered gang (section) and then you still have the extra gangs/ production gangs running around with the big project/ speciallized equipment forces. Steel gang/ Tie Gang/Surfacing Gang etc.....All the railroads have to annually report to FRA how the maintenance/ inspection forces are allocated and distributed across the railroad (Section Limits Statement). The bigger railroads will contract out only where they don't have the equipment or expertise. The individual politics of each organisation somewhat determines who does what. The small lines are all over the board and usually lack even the most basic of equipment and know-how.

[tree68]

We have our foul points marked with  - yellow paint.  And often on the joints.

I was standing in front of the Rantoul, IL station once during the 70's, wondering if that locomotive coming up the track toward me was going to sway back, or keep coming over.  It swayed back.  Still scared the daylights out of me.

[CNW 6000]

Does each major 'sub' have it's own forces that do this work (rotating to where it needs to be done) or do the RRs contract out? 

[mudchicken]

Roadmaster/MTM probably could be seen with his tin cup at the division HQ begging for the appropriate sized OTM for his relay rail.  Then he has to figure out how to lay it with his meager forces. Creates some very interesting scenarios.

[wgnrr]

UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.

When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.

He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.

Phil

The concept is called "cascading" rail that is not condemnable. ....Along with the labor costs for the rail comes the issue of changing the OTM (plates, spikes, etc.) to accomodate that rail .

You cannot lay 136# rail in 115# plates. You can't lay 115 lb rail in 90 lb plates. Got new anchors to go with all that new heavier rail? ...the issues become many. Lots of that cascaded rail sits idle for months/years  because of lack of the associated OTM to put it back in service. 

So, Union Pacific is really putting quite a bit of money into this line. The 'cascaded' rail as you call it, sat along the tracks for nearly 1 1/2 years before being installed--it wasn't anything instant.

Phil

[zardoz]

Actually, it's amazing how a section of track can give such a horrible ride in the cab and yet be technically sound.

When I was running suburban trains (until 1992), the track north of Waukegan going to Kenosha was 39' stick rail that was rated for 70mph.  When riding in a "F7", the trucks would slam back and forth laterally so much that we were sure the rail would break at any moment, or a rail would tip, or SOMETHING would happen.  It never did.   The rails held up well until they were replaced by CWR.  Of course, riding in an "E8" unit was a whole different story--the ride was so nice and smooth.....

Dirtybird:  do you or your bosses ever ride on locomotives to determine roadbed conditions?  Or has that practice been rendered moot by technology?

 

Slightly OT (but slightly related):

I've always thought that the guy who supervises highway road repairs should have to drive around in an old Jeep CJ5, instead of a new Suburban (or whatever big vehicle they use).  Perhaps then the boss would feel what a crappy condition the roads are in.

[zardoz]

If it wasn't safe, he (the MTM) would not be alowing trains to run on that rail.

Famous Last Words.

[mudchicken]

Joint batter...can be repaired with arc welder, lots of welding rod and a grinder.

Wow.  In that case, it'll only take them years to repair all those joints, since they all look like my photo.  Simply laying new CWR would take only a few days.

Hmmm...  I wonder what the most-economical, logical, and SAFEST option is.

Now I know where Robin Williams came up with the "Reality - What a concept!" schtick. Try walking a few miles in the local MTM's shoes. If it wasn't safe, he (the MTM) would not be alowing trains to run on that rail. He's doing the best he can with the assets he has.

I think you answered your own question, but are too IRRATIONAL to realize it. Either that, or Wisconsin has an unlimited supply of $$$$$ for the taking that we haven't heard about.

[mudchicken]

UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.

When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.

He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.

Phil

The concept is called "cascading" rail that is not condemnable. ....Along with the labor costs for the rail comes the issue of changing the OTM (plates, spikes, etc.) to accomodate that rail .

You cannot lay 136# rail in 115# plates. You can't lay 115 lb rail in 90 lb plates. Got new anchors to go with all that new heavier rail? ...the issues become many. Lots of that cascaded rail sits idle for months/years  because of lack of the associated OTM to put it back in service. 

[mudchicken]

There is nothing shown there that is obviously a 49CFR213 defect. (flattened rail is only a defect where found outside a rail joint)...What I see is a symptom of another issue, but not a defect. It only becomes a defect if the condition is completely ignored (and I seriously doubt that the local roadmaster is ignoring it....A  36 inch straight edge and a taper gauge are probably getting a workout by just about everyone in the track department there.)

Worn does not automatically imply defective. (This has shades of CSX Covington bridge rust written all over it again.) It very well may be that the welders being unable to keep up with it will cause slow orders and replace the rail. Roadmasters can never have enough welders around, but the darned budget allows him only to do so much.

Worn rail does not imply "rock & roll" (you can deal with joint batter and rail end memory)...

If the rail was so bad it wasn't servicable, the Detector Cars would have ordered it out long ago. I suspect that Uncle Pete has calculated and re-calculated how many MGT/cycles that rail has to go before removal & replacement. No need for all the knee-jerk hysteria.

If you really want to see that rail replaced, donate your lifetime earnings to Uncle Pete to buy new rail from RMSM or fund a field flash butt welder and cropping operation. Better yet, get Uncle Pete to stop wasting money on shiny new locomotives (with new mirrors for the hoggers to obsess over and cabs for the crews to trash) and put that money into shiny new rail instead.

The last time there was a rail defect caused derailment up there was?

[wgnrr]

UP is pulling CWR off of the mainlines in Nebraska, and Iowa almost continously. This CWR is not bad, but it doesn't meet the demands of the 70mph running that some trains do. So, UP has this rail that is perfectly fine for the 40mph that they do in Wisconsin. A few months, and they can have about 150 miles of rail replaced at only labor costs to them.

When they were done replacing the jointed rail with CWR in Oxford, WI, I was able to catch the train with all of the MOW equipment heading to a new destination. After the train went by, the foreman for the operation offered me a ride to my house. I told him that I was going to be picked up by the highway, so he gave me a ride. He showed me how to read the rail, and how the track gangs put a number code on every piece of CWR they install. I asked him why they would invest so much money into a line, when they can't go very fast on it.

He said that CWR is always being retired on the "racetracks" as he called them, and the rail still has years of life in it yet. So, they replace the jointed rail on the small lines. It is less labor intensive, prevents derailments (I have seen a few down here that were caused by a faulty rail joints), is smoother, and they can go faster (but not too fast) on the line. That joint that you had a picture of is the reason why CWR is better.

Phil

[CNW 6000]

What would replacing rail cost?  Strictly from a material standpoint.  How much would a mile of CWR be vs JR?

[CNW534]

Joint batter...can be repaired with arc welder, lots of welding rod and a grinder.

Wow.  In that case, it'll only take them years to repair all those joints, since they all look like my photo.  Simply laying new CWR would take only a few days.

Hmmm...  I wonder what the most-economical, logical, and SAFEST option is.

[zardoz]

Joint batter...can be repaired with arc welder, lots of welding rod and a grinder.

(ran Amtrak #'s 3 & 4 at 90 MPH on much worse, 132# jointed rail laid 1948-1954. Amtrak is still running on it at 79mph...TCS Inductors are now removed, Amtrak kept losing the truck shoes)

I think my confidence in Amtrak just dropped a few points....

[mudchicken]

Joint batter...can be repaired with arc welder, lots of welding rod and a grinder.

(ran Amtrak #'s 3 & 4 at 90 MPH on much worse, 132# jointed rail laid 1948-1954. Amtrak is still running on it at 79mph...TCS Inductors are now removed, Amtrak kept losing the truck shoes)

[CNW534]

Here's what the joints look like around MP 40.  This particular joint has been like this for two years and has been getting progressively worse.  This trackage sees 8 to 10 trains a day.

[CShaveRR]

MC--this was every joint, insulated or not, and on trackage where signal circuits (for grade crossings only) may or may not have been present--it didn't matter, the joints were yellow.

I'll bet I could go back home now and see the same 112-pound rail I grew up with.

[mudchicken]

what are DTM, MTM, and liteslice?   Thanks

DTM is Dermatophyte Test Medium.  MTM is Mary Tyler Moore.  LiteSlice is what they call Diet Slice in Germany.

The long arm of the law (Bergie) won't have much trouble finding CNW534 in the land of cheese for a mandatory time-out.

D irector of Track Maintenance = DTM= Yuppie term for Division Engineer

M anager of Track Maintenance = MTM= Yuppie term for Roadmaster

Main reason for the name changes is that job descriptions and levels of responsibility are different between railroads.

[mudchicken]

LiteSlice= Optical scanner rail profile track railhead wear analysis (BNSF has it mounted on their geometry cars,..... UP has them mounted on some of their geometry cars (not the Plassers), two of their older PMV's and their Corrugation Analyzer) The technology has been in use since 1990 and used to be the exclusive domain of Tamper, now everybody has it. Sure beats going out there with the old style railhead profile gauges (etch-a-sketch pantograph) to measure wear.

Heavier Rail ...119 and up (119, 122, 130, 131, 132,136,141,144..all nominal pounds per yard / standard sizings/ part of the raised letters on the rail web you see)... CNW had a lot of 132 jointed.

Carl: the signal bubbas measure rail circuits (impedence, current, potential) all the time and write their findings in yellow ballstick paint all the time out there - plus they paint insulated joints frequently to find them quickly in the dark when out on trouble calls/ running down CTC track lights.

[beaulieu]

what are DTM, MTM, and liteslice?   Thanks

DTM is Dermatophyte Test Medium.  MTM is Mary Tyler Moore.  LiteSlice is what they call Diet Slice in Germany.

DTM is the Divisional Track Manager (a.k.a the Division Engineer)

MTM is the Manager Track Maintenance (a.k.a the Roadmaster)

LiteSlice???? 

[CNW534]

what are DTM, MTM, and liteslice?   Thanks

DTM is Dermatophyte Test Medium.  MTM is Mary Tyler Moore.  LiteSlice is what they call Diet Slice in Germany.

[CNW 6000]

Also....what do you mean by 'heavy rail'?  What do the pound ratings for rail mean? 

[Murphy Siding]

(1) Flatlands, light curves, light density ( < 10 trains / day) ..no need for CWR.  Especially if the existing jointed rail is heavy rail and probably less than 50 years old with decent surface. If you had decent joint maintenance in the past, UP will get as much life out of that rail as possible. The DTM and MTM probably know how long they figure on keeping the rail.

If the joint batter suddenly gets bad, you will see CWR right quick and in a hurry.

MC- what are DTM, MTM, and liteslice?   Thanks

[Soo 6604]

There is no exaggeration of the "rock and roll" of the trains on the Adams Sub. Going down Hwy 21 and watching a train go by and watching all the rocking just gave you a sense that something might happen.  Now that section got (or going to get) CWR. I have some videos of manifest trains along that route and it just amazes me on how those cars stay on the tracks. The Adams line is slowly getting CWR and its just time before the whole line gets it.

Paul

[CShaveRR]

On the painting/marking of rail joints:  were they painted yellow, by chance?

In my early days of trespassing along railroad tracks, I noted that every joint had yellow paint by it after the Sperry Rail Service's detector cars passed over.  They saw the joints as defects, and marked them accordingly.  I don't know whether something along these lines is what you were seeing, but it's a possibility (haven't heard much about Sperry lately).

I'm also sure that UP has it down to a science, deciding whether it costs more to maintain the jointed rail up to the standards required (and MC is right about tolerance for defects), or to replace it all with CWR and save maintenance money in the long run.  I suspect that on the 30000-mile-plus system there are places and projects far more demanding of limited dollars than this line, with light density and no plans for substantially increasing same.

[mudchicken]

(1) Flatlands, light curves, light density ( < 10 trains / day) ..no need for CWR.  Especially if the existing jointed rail is heavy rail and probably less than 50 years old with decent surface. If you had decent joint maintenance in the past, UP will get as much life out of that rail as possible.

If the joint batter suddenly gets bad, you will see CWR right quick and in a hurry.

The joints are in bad shape five miles either side of MP 40.  Half the rail head is worn away in most places and nearly down to the web in a many others.  Bolts are loose and several joints are marked with spray paint markings (by whom, I don't know).  The coil springs on those cars sure get a workout when the trains pass through Baldwin.

So, where's the CWR?  Or is UP simply waiting for a RoadRailer derailment?

Perception vs. Reality

Methinks you exagerate more than just a tad. Rail detectors, geometry cars, liteslice, random freight car impact detectors and corrugation analyzers would have umasked something that bad long ago. Uncle Pete woulda put some secondhand CWR out there long ago or dropped the track to Class 1 (10 MPH) if the conditions you described were out there on consecutive runs (no matter what local supervision said - Big Yellow is zero tolerance obsessive like that, and they have resource$ that CNW would never have had). The FRA guys woulda caught it too  , independent of UP. (and you don't leave paint and other markings out there to make it easier for FRA to find unless you have addressed the situation)....

[Lord Atmo]

interesting that you bring up the roadrailer derailing. just last friday, i was watching it come through Elk Mound. and as the end passed me and i watched it leaving, i noticed those trailers are REALLY wobbling. i agree they might derail if this keeps up