CShaveRR wrote: There's the rub, Mark--"properly maintained". You don't have the human forces watching and adjusting the track all the time that you did when the IC was good for 115 m.p.h. I remember tales of trains tearing across the CNW at 90 after the 4R upgrading, but probably still on jointed rail during the Wolfe-Zito era.
There's the rub, Mark--"properly maintained". You don't have the human forces watching and adjusting the track all the time that you did when the IC was good for 115 m.p.h. I remember tales of trains tearing across the CNW at 90 after the 4R upgrading, but probably still on jointed rail during the Wolfe-Zito era.
Carl,
You're absolutely right about that. You may remember, as I do, the time when "Trackwalkers" literally walked the main lines carrying a spike maul and wrench on their shoulder looking for and tightening loose bolts and driving down spikes that were coming up. Labor was cheap in those days and it certainly did require more of it to keep jointed trackage in tip top shape. Today you just don't see a hi-railer stopping every few feet to drive down a loose spike which is why even on CWR main lines there are often many spikes whose heads are 4 inches above the base of the rail.
Just as location, location, location is key to real estate sales; it's drainage, drainage, drainage when it comes to track maintenance. This applies to CWR lines also but is even more important with jointed rail. Of course even CWR has some joints in the vicinity of turnouts and where breaks are required for signalling circuitry. It's at these joints where you're likely to get "mud pumping" because of poor sub surface drainage. I shudder every time I see MOW spread ballast and run the tamper right up to a grade crossing then stop and resume on the other side rather than taking up and working through the crossing. It's a penny wise and pound foolish practice and almost guarantees there will be a soft spot at that point. This is why you so often see cars bouncing and swaying as they pass over a crossing.
Over the years a broken rail was probably the leading cause of so many disastrous wrecks. Fortunately advances in rail metallurgy and manufacture have largely eliminated that. I haven't seen it recently, but at one time it was common to have a joint of rail stored (usually setting on concrete posts) every few miles along the line so it was handy when needed to replace a broken rail. The thermite welds used today to repair a CWR rail break if properly done are stronger than the adjacent rail. Taking short cuts like cutting out the broken section with a torch rather than sawing it are a definite no no. This was the cause of the Texas Eagle wreck a few years ago on the MoPac in east Texas that resulted in the death of several passengers.
Mark
MP173 wrote: This brings up an interesting, yet slightly unrelated topic...speed restrictions.Are engineers closely held to the speed limits/restrictions than in the past?
This brings up an interesting, yet slightly unrelated topic...speed restrictions.
Are engineers closely held to the speed limits/restrictions than in the past?
I'd have to say yes. Technology has a lot to do with it - between GPS and radar, it's much easier to track the speed of a locomotive than it was in the days when you counted telephone poles...
An anecdote in Trains some years ago spoke of the instructions given to the engineer of one of NYC's crack trains departing Grand Central - "Do not arrive at Albany before xx:xx."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
wgnrr wrote: Although the clickity clack is nice, I prefer the trains going faster. The UP press release said that the max speed for the line will be 50mph, and they were at least going 45mph 2 nights ago. Amazingly, even though the CWR has been in for at least a month and 1/2, that is the first train I have seen on the line since the jointed was removed.Another side note, about 3 weeks ago I saw a unit coal train sitting in Adams yard, on the south track ready to go out. According to wisrail, coal trains are rare on the line. Maybe since the CWR is going in in more places, they can run these trains through. Just a thought...Phil
Although the clickity clack is nice, I prefer the trains going faster. The UP press release said that the max speed for the line will be 50mph, and they were at least going 45mph 2 nights ago. Amazingly, even though the CWR has been in for at least a month and 1/2, that is the first train I have seen on the line since the jointed was removed.
Another side note, about 3 weeks ago I saw a unit coal train sitting in Adams yard, on the south track ready to go out. According to wisrail, coal trains are rare on the line. Maybe since the CWR is going in in more places, they can run these trains through. Just a thought...
Phil
CWR could mean trains would go faster and hence arrive in altoona before dark? we might get more coal trains too? then i'm all for it! really i'm indifferent at this point. jointed rail or CWR both have their advantages and disadvantage
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
Also, any update on my previous question about how often UP changes out CWR on the Nebraska lines?
ed
And (I think it's safe to say now), I've ridden freights on the GTW at over 60 on jointed rail when the speed limit of the line was 45, and clocked a Mohawk I was riding at over 100 (on 79-mph track) when welded rail was a novelty--definitely not underneath us!
Welded rail is acceptable now--to find main lines with jointed rail, however well maintained, suggests that the rail is probably 25 or more years old, with whatever wear that "seniority" would create.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
It never fails to amaze me how some people today equate jointed rail to bad track. It just aint so folks - jointed rail if properly maintained has the same load carrying and smooth riding capability as CWR of the same weight. Admittedly this requires keeping the fish plates (I still call them that) and bolts tight, the right number of rail anchors, the ballast and subgrade drainage up to snuff and replacing split or rotten ties particularly at the rail joints. On high traffic density lines this does add up to higher maintenance costs which is why we see CWR on the heavily trafficed main lines. IMHO rail end batter need not be a major problem and is mostly a function of poor tie condition or drainage problems that result in "soft" spots at a rail end. Hell I've ridden the Cities of Miami and New Orleans many times as speed of 115 mph on all jointed rail and the ride was smooth as glass and that was on trackage that took a real pounding from the steam locomotives that at the time headed all the many IC freight trains. What say you Mudchicken?
How often does UP change out its CWR on the Nebraska mainline, particularly the line between North Platte and Gibbon.
Don't hold your breath on the welded rail up in Eau Claire. UP has replaced the jointed rail with CWR up until Adams, WI. As far as I know, the welded is probably in place to the Wisconsin River, as I saw the track equipment up there in August.
In the fall of 2006, they installed welded rail up to about Glen Oak, including the trackage through Clyman Jct. As you can see in this picture, http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=160986&nseq=9, the welded rail is fresh, and the ballast hasn't even been shaped.
From about late September through mid-October 2007, they replaced the track from near Arkdale, to Glen Oak.
Keep in mind that it took 3 months to make about 35-40 miles of trackage. They do that once a year. Don't hold your breath on CWR up there soon.
BTW, the scrap pile for a good portion of the old jointed rail is in Grand Marsh, in case anyone's interiested.
There was a video here on the forum some time ago showing a stick of rail that was not fastened to the ties at all - it was held (more or less) in position by the joint bars and the adjoining rails. Each time a truck would pass over it, one end or the other would go several feet in the air. For the whole train.
Bad track? No problem.
I can identify with the harmonic thing - one of our trips is on less-than-optimum roadbed cleared for 15 mph. It's better to hold around 13 mph, however, as I've been told by a couple of engineers that at 15 the train does hit a harmonic and can really get to swaying.
Dan
so i was watching a train go through the west end of eau claire today and noticed the line was jointed rail still. but i had also heard UP replaced that track with CWR. anyone know which parts of the adams sub have been replaced with CWR currently?
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/PubAffairs/FRA_Natl_Rail_Saf_ActnPln_PrgrssRpt2005_2007.pdf
Even bad track is a lot better than the general condition of track 100 years ago. In some of my research I came across an interview with a traveling salesman who worked the West out of Salt Lake. He made the claim that when the OSL's Butte Special left Idaho Falls bound for Butte, frequent passengers would start a pool as to which milepost they would derail at. Not if they would derail - but where.
dd
zardoz wrote: xlspecial wrote: I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times. Terrible track compared to CP's. I would guess that you (CP) run more trains over that track than the UP does. And FWIW, the track north of Shermer is no better.
xlspecial wrote: I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times. Terrible track compared to CP's.
I beg to differ. As an engineer for CP I run over the UP Milwaukee Sub between Shermer and Bryn Mawr quite often. We all comment on how bad the track is through there and it's been that way since I started running over it in 2001. Bad spots stay bad for a very long time, often without a slow order giving pretty wild rides at times.
Terrible track compared to CP's.
I would guess that you (CP) run more trains over that track than the UP does. And FWIW, the track north of Shermer is no better.
(better chance of a sharp worn flange picking a point or climbing on the the rail than what I'm hearing on track condition being a problem here...still not hearing about trains on the ground anyhow...)
mudchicken wrote:Perception vs. RealityMethinks you exagerate more than just a tad. Rail detectors, geometry cars, liteslice, random freight car impact detectors and corrugation analyzers would have umasked something that bad long ago. Uncle Pete woulda put some secondhand CWR out there long ago or dropped the track to Class 1 (10 MPH) if the conditions you described were out there on consecutive runs (no matter what local supervision said - Big Yellow is zero tolerance obsessive like that, and they have resource$ that CNW would never have had). The FRA guys woulda caught it too , independent of UP. (and you don't leave paint and other markings out there to make it easier for FRA to find unless you have addressed the situation)....
Perception vs. Reality
Methinks you exagerate more than just a tad. Rail detectors, geometry cars, liteslice, random freight car impact detectors and corrugation analyzers would have umasked something that bad long ago. Uncle Pete woulda put some secondhand CWR out there long ago or dropped the track to Class 1 (10 MPH) if the conditions you described were out there on consecutive runs (no matter what local supervision said - Big Yellow is zero tolerance obsessive like that, and they have resource$ that CNW would never have had). The FRA guys woulda caught it too , independent of UP. (and you don't leave paint and other markings out there to make it easier for FRA to find unless you have addressed the situation)....
zardoz wrote: Slightly OT (but slightly related):I've always thought that the guy who supervises highway road repairs should have to drive around in an old Jeep CJ5, instead of a new Suburban (or whatever big vehicle they use). Perhaps then the boss would feel what a crappy condition the roads are in.
Slightly OT (but slightly related):
I've always thought that the guy who supervises highway road repairs should have to drive around in an old Jeep CJ5, instead of a new Suburban (or whatever big vehicle they use). Perhaps then the boss would feel what a crappy condition the roads are in.
Zardoz - Or, the guy who supervises repairs should ride in one of the older, smallest Japanese pickups at 70 miles an hour for 9 or 10 hours. The wheelbase is nearly as short as the CJ5, the narrow track plus the ruts in the asphalt make it hard to control, and the concrete springs can make your internal organs swap places.
Great insight and comments. I swear I learn so much from you 'rails' that it's scary some times.
Is it "easier" to stay on the rails at speed? Or is that dependant on how bad the defect is as to whether or not the unit/car will hit the ground?
If you mean how often on my railroad, this stuff seems to run in cycles.
Same spot, same locomotive, same shift with the same crew three weeks ago and the same basic thing happened, rear truck climbed the switch point and hit the ground.
Yard derailments like this are common, I would bet you my next paycheck that in the time it takes you to read this post, some where, in someone's yard, a locomotive or a car hits the ground.
Not because we, railroaders in general, are careless or not doing our job properly, but simply because yard tracks take a tremendous beating compared to main lines.
And the slow speeds we run at will find every defect, low spot, chipped or broken switch point...you know where every frog with a worn point is...every loose joint bar, and every flat spot is...
Keep in mind most yards use jointed rail, with thousands of joint bars in a few square miles, all have to be checked and tightened on a continuing basis, and all done, usually, under traffic.
Unless you have a huge MOW force, things get missed, or put on the back burner...and often, this is the result...a derailment at 2 or 3 mph...a good gouge in the ties and the really bad spot being found and repaired.
I know, it sounds silly, waiting till something goes wrong before addressing the problem, but sometimes, you don't know there is a problem till you get on the ground.
Take this incident...we shoved back and doubled over through that same crossover at least five times...and it waited till we were light motor and getting back on our side of the yard to crap out under our locomotive.
Short lines and class 3 roads don't have the MOW forces or the funds to check every joint bar or switch point, tighten the thousands of bolts involved with yard tracks...so unless a crew reports a problem, it will not be addressed unless they have a rotating crew that is dedicated to just this yard and just this purpose.
No one has the money for that.
Mow Roadmasters on a short line or class 3 carry a re-rail frog, wedges, spikes and a maul in the back of their truck just because of things like this...and most yard crews are pretty god at getting stuff back on the rail.
If you look at photos of older model switchers they all have a length of chain and a re-rail frog hanging under the frame...they take the tools to get stuff back up on the rails with them.
Now, keep in mind these things are slow speed, I mean really slow speed derailments...most of the time the car or the locomotive suffers no damage.
23 17 46 11
ed-
How often do things like that happen where you are? How often (ballpark) do things go on the ground: locos/cars?
edblysard wrote: Then I spent another hour drinking coffee and watching the MOW guys make the problem disappear.
I hope they thanked you for pointing out the problem, and/or making it easier to spot!
One Roadmaster, along with five MOW guys, about a dozen hardwood wedges, and myself and my engineer got it back on the rails in under an hour...shop guys checked the locomotive to make sure the traction motors were fine, then they OK'ed the motor to return to service.
Then I spent another hour drinking coffee and watching the MOW guys make the problem disappear.
CopCarSS wrote: Ed,What do you do in a situation like that? Is that something that you can re-rail fairly easily, or do you have to bring in a crane to put her back on the tracks?
Ed,
What do you do in a situation like that? Is that something that you can re-rail fairly easily, or do you have to bring in a crane to put her back on the tracks?
wgnrr wrote:I have never seen stick rail on concrete ties
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
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