Mark W Hemphill's last paragraph...

[edblysard]

Well now Mark,
Read you'r editorial in febuary 2004 issue of Trains...
now you have gone and let the cat out of the bag.
The next to last paragraph, where you let the secret out, about people no longer needing to work for a railroad.
To quote
"Worse, railroads have frittered away most of the know how and loyalty they need and -some will not get this- it will never come back without a complete cultural change.
No one needs to work for a railroad anymore.
But they might want to."

You know better that to tell the truth out where railroad management can read it!.
Now they are going to know we work here because we want to, not because we have to!

And all this time we were using their ignorance against them, and they never knew we were having fun.

As soon as they can, trainmasters will try to take all the fun out of work...great, just what I needed, another boring job.
I am going to miss picking on trainmasters...

Seriously, you hit the spike on the head.

No one needs to works for a railroad anymore, its not that high paying a career anymore, my UPS driver earns more per hour than I do, and works less!

I railroad because it is what I want to do, not because it is the only job I could find, after all, I left a job with my state's Attorney General's Office to go switching.

And most of the folks I work with could find better paying, 9 to 5 jobs.

It would startle most people to know how many college degrees are running locomotives and pulling pins.

Every railroads upper management needs to read that paragraph over and over to themselves a few times, and let it sink in.

Skilled and experienced railroaders are here because we want to be, not because we have to.

Loyalty to "your" railroad is just about gone, they are driving the knowledgable guys away in droves.

And it is going to come back and bite them real bad, real soon.

Just read Michael Blaszak's story in the railroad news section about UPs crew shortage.

That means there will be 3000 newbies running the rails by 2004.
(not to knock new hires, you gotta start somewhere)

But the biggest railroad in the US now has to rely on new, or slightly used conductors and switchmen to keep things going?.

And who is going to train them?

The old heads are retiring as soon as they can, there wont be anyone left with the knowledge needed to teach the new guys how to do things, and why you should or shouldnt do things a paticular way.

You were right too, in that it will take a massive change in the railroad culture, on both labor and managements part, to get back the pride and the passion railroad employees once felt for "their" road, and the pride in doing their job, and doing it well.

Its going to get real hairy out there.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

Ed, I don't want to say it, for much the same reason you probably didn't want to write it, but I am afraid that you are right. Bad dispatching, bad observance of the rules, inexpert train handling ... ... ...

[daveklepper]

I generally find Mark Hemphill's editorials extremely constructive even when very critical. One more reason I hope I can always be a Trains subscriber.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Railroading isn't alone concerning crew shortage. Long-haul trucking is running into a similar problem and the new hours-of-service rules won't help.
I wouldn't venture a guess on offering a solution but one quality-of-life issue may be a sticking point for either railroading or trucking: the fact that you spend a lot of time away from home and family unless you're in local service.

[Anonymous]

Well yes and No

I love my Job, plain and simple. If there was a sudden Transit strike, I would find an engineer, and we would have the only Train running on time. Why? I hate unions, And I hate Strikes, All I want to do is what I do best. WORK. and no strike/storm/ or anyhting else is foinf to stop me from working.. holding up a picket sign, what good does that do other then inconvienience the passengers? I've worked on that job now for a few years, and for those people who have said that that will wear of, and you'll be wanting a strike so you don't have to do any work.. Heres a news flash.. it hasn't worn off, and I still love my work and the people.

QUOTE: No one needs to work for a railroad anymore.
But they might want to."

I hate statements like that. They are so general. If i could disagree anymore, I WOULD. Conductors will always be needed on the passenger service to keep the People inline, and to keep the journey rolling along smoothly and safely.

People up in Canada have a NEED to work for the Railway, perhaps we are the only nation who realizes it's true value. We realize up here, that my watch will be maximum 5 to 10 minutes different from yours (not including time change) yeah, you can that the Railraod for Standerdizing time. Perhaps we Realize that The Railroad Built Canada, and Not Canada built the Railroad. 80% of the population of Canada is located withing 20 - 50 miles of a major Railway except where major Cities have developed, Yeah we can thank them for that.

The Railraod started us off,

perhaps, and asuming you DON'T know your history, Mr. Hemphill, June 1st 1872, was a historic Date for Canada. The Canadian Pacific Railraod act was passed and a member of the house of commons, Sir Georges Etienne Cartier stood up and yelled "ALL Aboard for the WEST!" that was one of the few times, no matter what you where, liberal, or a Torie, you stood up and aplauded. Since then that has happened about 3 or 4 times. Imagine that, an event that had both official parties clapping?

So the Railraod Built us, And we are very thankful up north.

So perhaps that isn't somehting you want to say outloud up here, Don't get me wrong, you can say whatever you want, but generally it's more appreciated that you have some kind of Educational degree to back up the Evidence you have presented/brought forward.

Your statement was simmilar to the one "Trash cans can be made of metal, No one needs a trash can made of metal, but it can be made of metal if it wants to be

Quite similar to your quote, really. They are both IRRELIVANT and USELESS facts.

Perhaps your nation was not built by the Railraod, perhaps it was built by a flying Saucer, or Aliens from mars who came down with a Ray gun and magically constructed houses out west, or perhaps a boing 747 landed in California and thats how it all started.

It takes a lot of Nerve to wirte that in a Trains magazine, and I still can't figure out what it's intention was, wa sit to put people to shame, make people realize that unemployment is better for them?

Not to put you down Ed, I don't compare my salery to Mr. Fed-Ex, or Johnny UPS, or the local garbage man, Yeah they probobly make more thne i do.. but hey WHO cares? I enjoy doing what I do. Period. End of sentance.

Two reasons NOT to subscribe to Trains magazine for it, 1) They price up here, is an Arm a leg three teeth and your Girlfriend for 3 nights, 2) And the people who Write for that magazine would make the First president of the CP Railway roll over in agony in his grave, and if i was dead and heard that, it would make me turn in agony too, not because what was said was annoying, but because what was said was so Ignorant, I'm all the dumber for reading it! it has no intellectual basis whatsoever, It is a very bias remark from someone who can wirte an editiorial and SIT in AN OFFICE all day!

What you got planned for next month.. or do I not want to know..

Your killing my Brain cells faster then any illegal drug ever could!

[CShaveRR]

Very nicely put, Ed!

Right now, I'm with you...an older head who still looks forward (most of the time) to going to work and being at work. (And I still say that I won't retire when I become eligible to.) But it never gets any better, does it?

[dharmon]

From my detached point of view, it would seem that no one needs to work for the railroads these days......

Why in the world would you even consider it? It's a dirty, hard life that is full of rules and can be rather unforgiving of complacency.....Instead you can go to college or even a trade school and work in the IT field or any of the other service fields and be in a nice cushy office. It's not like the years past when the RR may have been the only job around.

I tend to think that you have to want to do it. Becasue that's what you want to do becasue you enjoy it or are driven to it. It's like being in the military or even flying. Nobody made me do it. I didn't do it becasue I'm an ultranationalist or war junky or something like that. I did it because it's what I wanted to do and enjoy it...most the time, and as such I have agreed to put up with the parts I don't like to enjoy the parts I do.

I could have gone and done a nice, safe, clean 9-5 job and quite frankly, I would have been bored to tears and after almost 15 years, I am starting to come to the realization that it will be over soon and I'll have to get a real JOB. Who knows maybe, I will go to the railroads...heck I don't know what it's like not to live out of a bag. Maybe the airlines (but like the RRs they aren't what they used to be either), maybe go be a small town sheriff or a school teacher (they get to carry guns don't they?). I think that RR folks are probably the same way.

It seems that with all the tech and service and etc jobs out there...driving the economy, the only folks that work for the RRs have got to be folks that want to do it.

So that being said....why don't the RR folks take the next step and go the Jet Blue or Southwest route. Collectively buy a big chunk of the RR and put employees in the driver seat, as shareholders and employees. Make your RR one "the top ten places to work in America" ..Don't like the CEO...ditch em, get a new one.....promote from within... I'm not saying a railroad run by railfans, that would be doomed to failure trying to support 4-8-8-4s on the UPS run...

Just a question.......not a shot

[mudchicken]

dharmon: CNW tried it, didn't work.

Unihead: Could not agree with you more.(!)

MarkH.: Kneiling rubbed off on you? Amen!

From MudChicken's Point of View: How come senior (mis-)management, the Wall Street Trash (The fast buck artists) and the (lack-of) management consultants never:

(1) admit they made a mistake?
(2) learn from their mistakes?
(3) figured out that the difference between "lean and mean" and "starving and stupid" is very small and that the latter wipes out any long term viability of any company.

Since 1995, the engineering and maintenance side of the industry has been making noise about the lack of training and new people being infused into the pipeline. The generation gap in people working out on line has been visible since I went to work on the railroad in 1980 and has only gotten worse. As the rest of the old heads retire in the next 5-10 years, the loss of institutional memory is going to cost railroads severely.

Mudchicken[banghead]

[dharmon]

I have to admit that I have not read Mark's writings yet....

MC - did CNW fail because of employee "mismanagement" or was it a case of existing unprofitability? I ask because a company like Southwest created and maintains its own market, even in times of airline downturn. JetBlue, another company which has large employee share is doing well too, while the "majors", which share many of the issues that the major RRs suffer, seem to be having problems, even after merging and remerging to try and increase efficiency. Again, remember, I trying to look at this from an outside perspective, not as a railfan or railroader. It's not an emotional issue for me.

Similiarly, who will train the new generation.....well, you will. You will do it by showing them how its done. This is a topic which presents itself both in avaition and military all the time......when all the guys that fought in the last war are gone, who will be training the new guys......every squadron I've been in it's been the same, the guys learn and then they do, and they make mistakes and learn from them and go on. And often times the new guys comes in with fresh new blood and ask us old guys why we do things the way we do and why don't we do it this way instead.......and sometimes they are right too. We the "experienced" ones don't always have the corner on the "right way to do it market" The RRs are no different from the service in that respect. There will always be the generation that is us, saying who is going to teach the new guys, look at them, they know nothing....who is going to maintain that core professional knowledge of time and experience. We do and we we have to pass it on, becasue in ten years the guy that was following you around asking the whys is going to be the guy with some newbie following him around....and he's going to asking his peers.."who's going to teach these guys...."

And will there will have to be a huge change in RR culture, the answer is yes. Twelve years ago, my squadron had TWO computers and the number of folks that could operate them. Us junior officers had more powerful computers at home than the US frontline units had. We were the generation that starting using PCs in college and then the service and now they are all over. Now joe average soldier has more information and communications capablity than the fleet commander had fifteen years ago. No joke. Although I hate the term, maybe RRs need a paradigm shift also. There is still going to be the guy in the foxhole carrying the rifle, or walking the rail and lifting the pins......it has to be done...but the RR guy is going to have to be different. Don't sell them short, though the new guys can rise to the challenge and bring new ideas in with them. Please don't tell me that there is nothing in RRs that doesn't change. But if the management doesn't make it where people want to work there, then they won't...and they go to UPS or Southwest or Gateway or wherever...

Again, I not trying to pick a fight

[Anonymous]

All this Buzz about new this and New that

For some of you I suspect, you probobly thought i'm about 45, been working For the Railraod for about 20 of those years now, and have a Girlfriend who is 18, making our Age gap only.. now let's see 4 take the 1 place it beside the 8 making that 15, Subtract 8, thats 7 then taking the reamining 3 minus the one.. thats.. 27! 27 years apart from each other!

For those of you who thoguht this, you havn't checked my profile, and you obviously havn't been paying attention. For those of you who knew this already, I'm 19, been a conductor for 2 years. i'm 1 year older then My Girlfriend. not 27.

Why the hell am i Spewing this out, simple some of you appear to have some sort of problem with Training new people for the job, look at me i've been trained well, I've only hit 6 people, not my Quota maximum of 10 a year!

see i'm better off then some other Engineers out there already!

and what do you mean, Teenagers can't do the job? You know, most of you must be right, so who votes i should take a hammer, swing it to my lower jaw so my top teeth hang over my lower jaw, and begin talking in incomplete sentances and using the wrong words, That don't work! i'm a teenager I probobly should be out at a party getting drunk of getting laid.. Yeah rock on, man

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but not all teenagers are like that. I have the skill and the maturity, wich some of you seem to have a hard time understanding that some teenagers ACTUALLY do have a tad bit of maturity in them... I KNOW! i couldn't believe it either, actually I just saw it on the 5 o clock news.

I'm not a big partier, I always know who's sleeping beside me, and the latest i've ever shown up for wark is 25 minutes early.

Oh and my training, some of you are fussing about Training, mine was simple.

My best guess, is that some of you, jsut can;'t picture a younger person taking your job, and it's hard to hand the reigns over to a younger crowd, GET A LIFE! next thing your going to start somming up with is that WOMEN can't do the job!

Old head, new Head, I don't give a Damn what head you are, what colour or Gender it is, There is a job out there, and anyone can do it, with the proper training.

Where kan I apply for this here job? I heard all you gots to do is throw that switch from 1 to 8 and pu***he break thingie..

I'm I HIRED yet?

I don't want to hear, Since 1955, since 1980 since this since that, yeah yeah, cut that.. Welcome to 2004, or atleast my watch, and my computer, hecxk even my Radio controlled CP rail clock tells me it's 2004.. I'll have to call someone, that can't be right, Based on most of your posting I thought weed hit the time machine and landed back at a time where it was harder for the new guy to start working, and probobly if you saw a female Conductor or engineer, you'd have a cow too right?

Happy new year, set it, it's 2004.

When I use the term You, it's the GENERAL meaning of it.

[JoeKoh]

Ed
I have a friend who retired from railroading.I sent him pics and that. He said that he is happy that Matt and I are enjoying trains but he has seen enough of them in his life.charles roberts in his east end book asks "why is it that men and women with the most dirtiest hardest and most dangerous jobs weather it be rider brakeman soilder trackman garbageman or cop always get the lowest pay?"(i will add fireman too) it should be the other way around.just my two cents
stay safe
Joe

[kenneo]

Hey, Kevin --- ease up, lad. When I would go off the deep end about some subject or another, after waiting for me to stop for a breath, he'd say "Put a sock in it! Let your mouth rest a bit and your ears do some work for a change." So listen a minute, please.

You have your opinion and we can see that it is strongly held. That is OK, because change does not come from milquetoast. However, change or even the simple acceptance of your opinion by others comes much quicker when one uses the "humble approach". With that method, I get up on my soap box and say my peice and then get down, you, then, get up on your soap box and say your piece and then get down. I listen to you and you listen to me, whether or not we agree, we do it as gentlemen. Then, being the gentlemen we are, we go off together to railroad, you run the engine and I'll take the tickets - TOGETHER we will make the train run.

Now, I'll be quiet and you can take the sock out, having wearied your ears listening to an old fart who has been around more barns, yards and wrecks in my 60 years than you even know exist.

I'll sit back, now, and listen to you and consider your thoughts. My sock has been inserted.

[edblysard]

Hi Kevin,

Dude, I think you missed Marks point, or I didnt express it in quite the manner he intended...

He wasnt asking "do we need railroads?"
I think he was asking, "do railroads know how badly they need us?"

What he was trying to get across was that, at one point in time, almost every small town and city in America and Canada had one major employeer, a railroad.
The railroad brought the people who built the towns, and employeed most of the population.

If you needed a job, you almost had to ask the railroad for work.

You needed to work for the railroad, because there wasnt any other jobs around.

And railroads could be picky about who they hired, you almost had to have a relative working there to get on.

Now, things have changed...

there are many other jobs, blue collar jobs, that pay better than railroading.

And railroads cant be picky anymore, they are out of people.

People no longer need to work for a railroad to make a decent living.

What he was pointing out was that some people, me, you, wabash, kenno and mudchicken, work for railroads because we want to, not because we have to.

No one doubts you love your job, myself, I almost cant remember the last jobs I had before railroading.

Dan, your right, the young guys will learn by trial and error, but like flying, they have to have the basics taught to them, you dont turn a rookie loose in a F11 to practice first, someone, like you, teaches them the basics over and over till they can do it in their sleep, then let them solo.

Sadly, the railroads dont think it is necessary anymore.

So we have two week wonders, (instead of 90 day wonders), as conductors on big, dangerous trains.

Here is a scary though.

Unlike the military, where boot camps, be it Navy, Army or Airforce, even the Marines, are all pretty muck alike, railroads dont have a unified training program.

If your in boot camp, every service teaches you the same basics, how to march in formation, how to salute, how to shoot, and field clean a weapon, how to talk on a radio, what to do when captured, you get the point.

But BNSF teaches a different lenght of time, and different skills, than UP, who donst teach the same basics that NS or CSX teaches.

So a guy who may be a qualified conductor on BNSF needs a babysitter on the PTRA.

Kevin is a qualified passenger conductor and engineer on CP, but would be lost down here, same as I would be up there, ( I guess you dont kick those passenger cars down to the joint?)

And the culture of railroading is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here...

If Enron had hired railroad accountants, well....

Management needs labor, as labor needs management, to be, on the surface, antagonistic towards each other, it helps justify each one actions and exsistence.

Management needs labor unions, and their attitude, to justify their heavy handedness, if they slack off even a little bit, labor will run off with the railroad.

Labor, of course, needs management to be buttheads, to justify their exsistence, if it wasnt for unions, workers would barely survive a day....
blah blah blah...each feeds off the other, and it is exactly what both sides want, it keeps the status quo.

Railroads, and railroaders, hate and resist change, even the smallest one.

And neither side will ever admitt that, if they both sat down, and placed both sides basic needs, and those of the industry as a whole, on the table, and worked towards a contract that was mutialy benifical for each other, they could work wonders.
Fat chance, but you never know...

Mark was right, we dont need to work for a railroad,
but some of us still want too!

OK, Kenno, got the other sock handy?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[dharmon]

Ed,

Your right, we don't stick"em a plane and go "off you go". But there is a huge difference between teaching someone to fly and making them a pilot and making them a combat pilot. That's like high school, college and masters difference. What I was trying to say is that ......... I was the young dude in a world of Desert Storm veterens.....and they went...who's gonnna teach this guy......he knows nothing .... he and his buddies just want to chase tail, drink beer and mess around......they can barely fly the plane much less fight the plane, and they want to change the way we do things....a whole three years later, I'm leaving the unit, going, who they hell is going to teach these guys how to stay out of trouble.....and less than a year later, I hear my old co-pilot is doing the things that I did.......only better! What I was getting at was they are there (Naval Aviation or Union Pacific) because they want to be...it's not the pay or the bennies, it's the lifestyle, the camraderie, the thrill, etc. Every generation, heck every few years the guys say the same thing....... The military goes through rich and lean years..some years we can fly the wings off the planes, some years we're killing each other to get a couple of hours....it doesn't matter. the old dudes train the new ones regardless, and sometimes the new dudes ask us why we do it a certain way, and we suddenly realize that because we've always done it this way isn;t the right answer. When guys start talkin bout ...the new guys it starts to rub me........So if if takes awhile to to train a new dude or one from UP or BNSF to run PTRA, you do it. It helps you and it helps him, so it helps you. They don't learn sometimes unless you do it.

Ed, I'm really not fightin , honest........but you said....so I'm going to use it againt you.............

"And the culture of railroading is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here..."

You are the son of a CPO......tell me that can't be said of the service..hold on let me do put it this way....

" And the culture of (Army / Navy / Air Force / Marines / Airlines / Merchant Marine / Oil Rig Dudes / Truck Drivers / Policemen / Firemen /EMTs / Nurses / Teachers / etc.....) is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here..."

See what I mean........don't hit me bro...just using your words, sort of......

I understand what you mean, RRs may be special cases, but not that special....


My original question was, really and without malice, okay.... CNW didn't work, but why can't employee owned be done. There are sucessful models in other industries, why not RRs ?

And don't give anymore of the lost art, new guys got no history, no experience, no reason to live, a' in't gonna make it BS, ......RRs are just one of several professions that people do cause they want to.....not the only one.....or I'll sic Kevin on you again..[:)]

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


OK, Kenno, got the other sock handy?
Stay frosty,
Ed

Ed, I have a whole drawer full of them! And you can call me Eric. I can send you a few, but they have already been used.[:-,]

And I don't need to stay frosty tonight. It is 16 degrees and blowing a blizzard. We are supposed to have a foot of snow tonight. Oh, how I hope that weatherman is wrong. I got to work ahead of the plows. [sigh]

[daveklepper]

Ed, you really got it right in answering Kevin, and think you are really on the ball. Note that Mark is not afraid to point out that GM mentions EMD's part in their organization and profit structure only in a footnotein their Annual Report. Everyone interesting the future of the rail industry should work together, and usually I find inspiration in TRAINS on how that can be accomplished. That, together with the nostalgia and the technical articles and the armchair experience of being on the property make it extremely worthwhile. When I get each issue, I am almost distracted from important matters that I must do because I find the material both interesting and enjoyable reading. Sometimes Mark makes a point very subtly that others of us would make by lashing out. He ran a story about a couple who like to live a car-free existance, and this made the point in an enjoyable and noncombatitive way that owning a car should, in a civilized country, be an option and not a necessity. He showed a 1960's era photo of a streetcar on St. Charles in New Orleans (a beautiful ride, by the way, I recommend it if you are there, and it was once a steam railway), which made the point that there was no real good reason for any large USA city to scrap its streetcar network, and we all know why most cities were forced to do so and who was to blame. The reporting on the relationship between the Government and the Industry is important. And it is also obvious that he thinks highly of Canadians and Canadian railways, and that Canadian's happiness is of concern to him just as citizens of the USA. When Israelis and Europeans ask me "What is your favorite American City?" I almost always reply, "My favorite USA city happens to be in Canada, Toronto." Then: "Yes, because it is the only American city that decided that people were more important the automobiles. It kept its streetcars, not because there were tunnels or subways or huge stretches of rapid-transit-like right-of-way, but just ordinary streetcars, sharing the street with automobiles and stopping and every other corner." One European responded: "Ah yes, Toronto. New York City run by the Swiss!" Dave

[edblysard]

Eric,
The reason I wanted to borrow one of yours is because all of mine are in use, or in the washing machine!

Dan, your right on the mark, military life is, like railroading, a closed society,
with it own code of behaviour and unwritten rules.

You already know why I correct people when they call me Mister Blysard, I tell them no, thats my father.

And yes, old heads, be it pilots or conductors, do teach and train the new guys, as a matter of self preseveration, if for no other reason.

None of us want to see a new guy get hurt, or killed.
Neither do we want to see one of our friends killed, or ourselves be hurt or killed because no one taught the new guy what to do, and what not to do.

My point was that railroads are counting on that, instead providing a basic boot camp first, they are just going through the motions, and counting on us to fill in the missing parts.

Now, I am by no means a old head, I have been railroading only 7 years, but came to this industry at age 38, a little older and more mature than most "new" guys, and had already discovered I am not bullet proof.

The new crop of trainees are almost all kids, ( no offense intended Kevin) so you already know their attitude.

I can teach a baboon to pull pins and line switches, but I cant teach one to use their judgement, nor can I give them skill at this, any more than you can give a skill to a fighter pilot, you can teach him to fly, and fly reallly well, but the skill to be the best is something he has to develope on his own.

I, and you, can nuture the "skill", if it is already present, but we cant give or teach it to someone.

My beef was that the basics, how to safely get on and off a moving railcar, why a handbrake tied to tight is useless, what sounds should you listen for, why we dont take chances with this stuff, isnt being taught by the carriers.

And it is true, your pay, even as a combat pilot, sucks compaired to what you could earn in the private sector.

How the armed services gets people to stay is something most folks, outside of the military life, wont ever see or understand.

It is a secret society, where one group of people have to call my dad Chief, and others can call him Mister instead.

It is all about being one of the few who do wear the colors, and guard the citizens and the country from peril.

It is all about duty, loyality, service and sacrifice, performed with pride, and secure in the knowledge that your comrades respect you for your skills and abilities, not because you "earn" more money that someone else.

And railroads have lost the willingness to creat that pride in service amoungest their employees, they flat dont care if you want to work for them or not.

We are reduced to nothing more that warm bodies filling a slot.
And that attitude is slowly trickleing down into the rank and file, who did, at one time, take pride in their work and craft.

When I came out here, we did it right, because we wanted to.
I took pride in telling people where I worked, and what I did.

I still do, but I have noticed that quite a few other railroaders no longer wear their "colors" with pride.

And that is what is going to cost railroads in a big way.

Because if a person no longer takes pride in his craft or job, he dosnt perform as well or safely as he should.

Stay frosty,
Ed

[daveklepper]

Ed, I understand this attitude, this problem you speak of, does not exist on some of the regional and short line carriers, where there still is genuine pride in being part of the whole outfit. Would you advise a young aspiring railroader to get his first experience on one of the those railroads? Dave

[Anonymous]

See personally, I can't imagoine 2 week wonders ruling the Railroad, my Training took 1 year, and another 6 months of taking various Engineer Tests.

Two weeks sounds like a breeze, but how can they compact a one year course (what I got) into Two weeks, or are there important things being left out?

I can't imagine learning that quickly in two weeks. It would be impossible for me, I'm a fast learner but not two wekks fast learner.

[rrnut282]

Just a thought, but could the percieved lack of "pride in the RR" have a lot to do with the dim view the RR takes of fans? i.e. I don't want to labelled as a foamer so I'll pretend to not care.

[dharmon]

I guess my point was that RRs aren't unique in being different so to speak. The military is one example of a group that unless you are a member of it (like police or firemen or RRs) the average Joe (not Koh) may not have an understanding of the whys and how comes......But like the RRs we find ourselves in similiar positions regarding the new folks coming in. But that in it's self is an issue that old timers have always had...regardless of profession, and is not unique to RRs.

It is a shame that standardized training is not prevelant in RRs. Most is OJT it would seem. But then again, like I said, training someone to fly and making them a combat pilot is two different things and the reality is, OJT is huge. You can put someone in a simulator (plane or train) and teach them to drive......but until they feel it under their butts and hear the real sounds.....it ain't real. That cold feeling in your stomach that something isn't right can't be simulated or taught, they gotta go out and do it, so your job becomes harder as you do yours and train them at the same time.

It would seem that the RRs should see it as a cost savings to provide better and standardized training. Accidents from a purely financial perspective are expensive. If you did a cost analysis of a crews that had standardized training vs crews that did not, taking into the cost of any accidents involving the two groups, I would venture to bet that the cost of formal training would be less than clean up. That's why airlines invest a fair amount of bucks into their training facilities and companies like Flight Safety International stay in business. It's a simple business decision. Accidents cost money. Lots of money. Is the cost of a wrecked SD70 more or less than the cost of making a six or eight week training syllabus or what about a HAZMAT cleanup?

So CNW tried employee ownership and failed. Why was that? Why not try it again? You won't get things to change unless management is forced to change them. It would seem at the rate things are going, something has to change or RRs are going to be thing of the past.

[techguy57]

Okay, so I couldn't hold my tongue any longer. If I don't start moving it it'll probably freeze anyway.

I think there will always be some differing of opinions between the new and the old no matter what line of work you are in but the point I see Ed is making is really about experience more than ability. Kevin, please take note, as this also relates to your posts as well. Ed, and really also Mark H's article, seem to be reffering to the rise in new hires leading to its natural progression of having train personnel with very little experience. Now Kevin, I haven't reviewed your safety record but it seems to me that only having 6 collisions is considerably within the limitations [:D]so you are definitely an exception to the rule. I think the real concern comes with personnel that need the experience to stay within the established guidelines.

Okay, let me make an analogy. Everyone probably knew someone from school, be it high school or college or whatever, who cut class a lot or slept through classes. Maybe even it was you ( I had a semester at college like that).
Now, if that same person chose to be a surgeon in your town, would you rather he spent a week studying and then begin practicing because of financial constraints or take his time with his studies until he and his instructors were fully confident that he could perform successfully. Ideally most of us would prefer the latter, especially if we are the ones being operated on. Realistically each person learns at a different pace and some of the candidates might not be ready for decades if this is how it really worked. So there are time restrictions and ready or not at some point they have to be tested to see how much they have learned. But just as Ed and Mark both wrote, the ones who find challenge and enjoyment in their work are the ones who tend to excel. If the railroads want to do a two week course AND THEY CAN DO IT SAFELY, then I think let them do it. But if they are just hiring and passing a bunch of folks just to have people to work, then there really is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Dan- As for a new startup RR in the mold of a Southwest, it seems to me that trackage rights are the biggest problem. I mean looking at all of the short lines like the Indiana Rail Road that have been successful they have made it by buying track that no one else wanted or by providing more specific services that the big carriers can't afford to. I think it would be difficult to start up a Class I from scratch. Just an opinion.

Hope this help the discussion along.

Mike

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

See personally, I can't imagoine 2 week wonders ruling the Railroad, my Training took 1 year, and another 6 months of taking various Engineer Tests.

Two weeks sounds like a breeze, but how can they compact a one year course (what I got) into Two weeks, or are there important things being left out?

I can't imagine learning that quickly in two weeks. It would be impossible for me, I'm a fast learner but not two wekks fast learner.

As a in-the-trench worker you have 18 months training but what if that two-week wonder is in the corporate office, straight out of business school, and is more concerned with his stock options than worker safety?

I think that is the primary point of this conversation.

Just my two cents worth and its only worth about 2 cents...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Eric,
The reason I wanted to borrow one of yours is because all of mine are in use, or in the washing machine!

Not wait a cotton pickin minute...you work for a switching road......shouldn't be any overnighters...so where are all your socks?[;)]

[Anonymous]

Just so we all know

I havn't (Touch Titanium or "wood" but thats old school) hit anyone, or anything,

Wait, do skunks Count?

WHY should they count, it's not like it was YOUR PET or anyhting...

[dharmon]

I don't mean to change the subject or anything...but the last three posts, check the times.....

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman



Wait, do skunks Count?

Only if they work in Uncle Petes corporate offices.....

[Anonymous]

See thats all I've run over, A mangie skunk, that was in bad health anyways

I still couldn't sleep that night, it was quite morally dipressing.

[Anonymous]

Hi all. I have been reading the topics of various forums with great interest. I have gained alot of insight to the railroading world today. Very enlightening.

I am the wife of a road freight conductor of less than 2 years. It is the best job he has ever had. He worked 5 years retail management and did 4 years in the Military. He has tried hard to learn all he can and do the safest, most effective job he can.
For the old heads-------You cant just start working for the railroads anymore----the times have changed. We paid large money for him to take a course that covered HazMat/Signals/Regulations and FRA Laws. We did not get reimbursed the $4250.00 course fee, nor did he get paid for the 5 weeks that it took for him to take the class. (There was no time left in the day for him to work another job. There was also NO guarantee of a job when he finished-just an interview) He worked for 4 months at substantially less than he was making as a retail manager and was gone for days at a time training. He is now a road conductor and is gone all the time and still doesnt make full pay.
We figure that going to work for the railroad cost us about 30k (cash out of pocket in course fees and lost wages) .

What did that money get? A competant conductor that is committed to his job and company. He may not know all the old ways, but he is knowledgable about what he needs to do and how to do it safely.
Are all new heads like that? Probably not. You are always going to work with jerks and fools but in this job they dont survive long do they? Some of the old heads give the new heads a hard time figuring they have not paid their dues. We paid.

RAILROADING IS STILL A GOOD, HONEST, RESPECTABLE, EXCELLENT PAYING JOB.
I am proud to be a trainman's wife.
Thanks....now kick the soapbox out from under me.
RRWife

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forums, I'm not such a lucky man as your husband is, My Girlfriend has never really approved of me working on Trains.

I can vouch for that, all the jerk and fool new heads were let go within a week. I'm still standing after two yearsm and I LIKE being a new head, although some old heads don't like me one bit, but thats fine.. I never said I cared.

How old is your husband, if you don't mind me asking..?