Mark W Hemphill's last paragraph...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

As far as setting up a major railroad along the lines of Jet Blue or Southwest Airlines, there are several factors to consider. Most of these carriers are mostly non-union, many are underfinanced. Jet Blue and Southwest have been successful, but keep in mind that Vanguard, Midway, National and many others failed.
Airlines also don't have to supply their own right-of-way so they can pick and choose their routes. Southwest has pulled out of several cities that weren't profitable or affected their on-time performance (Denver). A railroad doesn't have this option.

Yes they are non union......but in that vain....has that been a bad thing? I don't want to start a Union vs no union argument, becasue I'm pretty neutral on the subject, but in the airlines case, the union were a contributing problem (pilots, mechanics, attendents)when it came to the demise of some of the airlines. Airlines don't supply their own ROW but, can't just turn routes on and off without approval. And in some cases are required to maintain less profitble routes to smaller markets. They have infrastructure issues also, though rails are not one of them.

I have to admit I was not knowledgable of the CNW issues. But after since being on these forums, the common thread seems to be how messed up and unresponsive management is...Okay, that's a common complaint in just about every business.....So either you live with it, you change careers or you try to change it. You and 2500 of your closesest freinds each buy x amount of stack and go to the share holder meetings and vote your block of shares. Sounds idealistic.....but if you don't like the government, vote it out. Corporations live and die by the control of shares. Sound ludricroius.....stranger things have happened. Block A of shares thinks we should reduce the dividend and reinvest more capital into maintenance and training......if you get it on the agenda, it has to be voted on...... I have 100 shares of CSX. You can have my proxy if you can pull it off. Its on the table......It only takes one share to get a vote.

[zardoz]

Regarding the "Employee Owned" CNW.

I was working there when the option to "buy in" to the company was offered. The middle & upper management people were the ones that did most of the purchasing. The 'workers' (those that pull pins, fix track, drive trains) had such low confidence in the company, that very few union people would decide to risk what they had saved to buy the fupped-duck railroad.

Ahh, but the managers knew what was going on, and chose not to disseminate that information to those 'beneath' them. Many managers mortgaged their houses, took out loans, and did what they could to buy all the stock they could.

Surprise, surprise! Soon after the initial offering, the stock split 60-to-1!!!!!!! About a year later, it split again, this time 4-to-1.

Just think how much money all those managers made.
Just think what a morale-booster that was to the rank-and-file.
Just think what it did for productivity.

It wasn't that the managers made lots of money, it was that they chose to not share their information with the "employees". Most of us felt very betrayed, and it fostered an attitude of downright "F***-em-whenever-you-get-a-chance attitude.

I was too young (20) to care, plus I had no money to invest anyway. And I really liked working for the CNW, after all, they actually hired me!!. I was still in the so-happy-to-be-doing-what-I-always-wanted-to-do mode that I found the bad attitude of my fellow rails a bit depressing. Now, 30 years later, I understand their feelings.

Anyway, to get to the point, the idea that the CNW was "Employee-Owned" was rather a bit misleading. Granted, it was employees that owned it, but it was a very select group of employees, and those employees (and their business decisions) were mostly the reason the railroad was in the shape it was in anyway. In another post someone had thought that the employees could buy their railroad, and fire the CEO or other managers if they felt it neccessary. With the CNW, the owners were the ones that needed the firing.

[Anonymous]

coco the clown was one of them, there are many more, the ones that are uttered behind my back are the worst ones, but still,

I rememebr there was one old head who was hell bent on making my life a living hell, I was teamed up with him the first ngiht, It was sunday, And we were about to do the 12 o'clock milk run, I had just gotten out of Church, from 12 o'clock on That entire 60 minutes he never had anythign nice to say, he would alwasy adress my in manners like, Hey toddler, or hey brat, and would tell me i'd never get anywhere and you know the usual routine.. I never responded believeing in the Honest Abe approach. Well we got off the Train, he got in his car, I got in mine, he had a heart attack and colided with a cement barriere on his way to lunch.

Sure i still went to his funeral, I disliked his behavior, I didn't Dislike him, Deep down i could see he was insecure about his job, and he was ultimately worried that i'd do a better job then him, so all his goals were was to make me feel bad so I would ultimately do a terrible job. Well, I probobly owe that guy the biggest thanks of my life.

Believe it or not, he taught me what the Railraod was about, and I know Ed has said this before in a reply to a girl called Lisa, he told her that the Railroad was about Cheap shots and one up man-ship (Rememebr that ED?) , how you always have to be better then the people around you. Well I met a guy, or they paired me up wiht Robert, an Engineer whose about 23. I like working with him, we call each other names for the fun of it, we rush if theres a Hockey Game on, and our Train has never been more then 30 secondes late.

That really isn't much of a problem, except for exceptions, people aren't that possesive over their job enough to make new people feel terrible. Threr aren't that many new heads around, and my suggestion that we hire the hooters girls for conductors... well.. that one is still in the works.,

If I may, a quick storry, You know Ed was right, Good engineers make the job look like a sinch, I know that it is not, Even thoguh i could be an engineer, I would never be. Not fer me, I can't sit down like that, I can jsut see myself getting out of shape, I like the freedom to walk up and down the train to go and talk to trhe passengers. Sometimes, if theres more then 8 cars, we have the theird Conductor, and normally that makes times even better.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

As far as setting up a major railroad along the lines of Jet Blue or Southwest Airlines, there are several factors to consider. Most of these carriers are mostly non-union, many are underfinanced. Jet Blue and Southwest have been successful, but keep in mind that Vanguard, Midway, National and many others failed.
Airlines also don't have to supply their own right-of-way so they can pick and choose their routes. Southwest has pulled out of several cities that weren't profitable or affected their on-time performance (Denver). A railroad doesn't have this option.

[Mookie]

[soapbox] Mookie pulls out her soapbox, turns it over and sits in it!

I had to contain myself while I read all the postings. Years ago - my ex-brother-in-law hired out on BN - took two student trips and was a fireman. But he had several years training with the engineers before he became an engineer. Gee - that is so simple, wonder why the railroads ever let that go!

Mookie

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I don't mean to change the subject or anything...but the last three posts, check the times.....

Yeah! You wait until Mookie goes home to talk!

[V]

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input.
Kevin, If I remember correctly you are under 20-right? You are right that my husband is lucky to have me....but I am also lucky to have someone like him
My husband is 33, I am somewhat older...(?).....I just want you to know that he was a trainee for the 1st year and worked in the yard too.
Kevin....You are young...I am not knocking that by a long shot. That you are young but still have a clear goal in mind is rare. When you have worked 30 years you will still be young enough to enjoy retirement. Travel, fish, camp. sleep ,drink beer.... whatever.
Remind your GF that guys like you are NOT a dime a dozen You will probably replace her a dozen times before you find the right one (at least you should) and you will find one that appreciates a man (not a boy) that takes care of business. Nuf said.

Ed...Why are you having to fight for the washer?.... All those females and no laundress?

My husband does work for a Class 1 . ..You are correct in saying that alot of people are unhappy with how things are within some of the the railroads, but it is worse and more cut throat in the 'civilian world'. The RR life is pretty sheltered in some aspects. And what company is going to have 100% satisfaction anyway. Let the complainers go out to civilian job hunt. It would be a real eye opener with little or no benefits.

Kevin...by the way...what nickname did the old heads give you?

[edblysard]

And as a added bonus, the fireman often stayed in the same district as he "learned' on, so he had several years experience in the very place he ended up working.

RRwife,
if your husband and you havent realized it yet, there quite a few offical, and unoffical reasons/rules in use at a railroad.

Do conductors ever sneak a try at running the train?
You bet they do!
Why?
Because they want to learn how its done, and why things work the way they do.
Quite a few want to be engineers, I know I pestered my engineer to let me try when I worked on a "road" job.

It aint anywhere near as easy as it looks.

And the good engineers make it look real easy, real easy.

Do the railroad know this unoffical tryouts go on?

Sure, they turn a blind eye to it, unless something goes wrong, because, like Eric said, thats where the real training goes on, and when they have a engineers class, they expect the conductors to have some time under their belt.

It weeds out the really bad or indifferent ones ahead of time, because a engineers who lets a conductor give it a try will not allow him to run it again if he dosnt pay attention, or beats the train up.

Now, offically, this never happens, for liability reasons, but unoffically, it goes on all the time.

One thing I have noticed is crews dont seem to stay together like they did when I first signed on.
Even here at a small terminal road, where you would think most crews would stay pretty much the same, because of seniority, it dosnt happen nearly as often as it did.

I am lucky, my number one helper and I have worked the same jobs together for several years, he can predict what I am going to do, and I can count on him being where he needs to be, without looking to check if he is.

The number two helper seems to change every few months, but I have noticed the same small group of guys back again and again.

I would guess on a large road, the same large group of guys would tend to stay together, but only as a group, not as a fixed crew.
Stay Frosty,
Ed
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Eric,
The reason I wanted to borrow one of yours is because all of mine are in use, or in the washing machine!

Not wait a cotton pickin minute...you work for a switching road......shouldn't be any overnighters...so where are all your socks?[;)]

[#ditto]
Ed, just let me know, and I'll see if I can FedEx you some. Like I said, they ain't washed.

One point in all of the talking about training that has been aluded to but not said straight out, is that the "full crew" of 5 or 6 men trained railroaders far better than any course of books can. Ed, what do think the results would have been for you if your mentoring had been several years in length? There were two reasons for firemen, one official (fire the locomotive and keep the boiler hot) and the other one unofficial (teach and train new locomotive engineers). Same for brakemen and switchmen. I was taught to switch by a snake that went on the road and that man could study a list, put it into his grip, shake the cars out by memory without an error, and do so in about half the time of anyone else because of his economy of moves. You simply can not learn that from a book or from a week or a month of OJC.

I do not pretend to be able to switch as well as this man did, but when I was working as a trainman age 48+, I could switch out a train and get it over the road faster (elapsed time) and get all of the work done and do it at half the speed of the young bucks. When I worked with this man while being an Agent, knowing how he did his work, I could have the train list made up and entered into the computer before he even came to work. That is how accurate and consistant he was. I miss that man.

You simply can't do that sort of training with a two man crew. Really hard even with a 3 man crew.
[soapbox]

(Maybe we need an Icon for putting a sock into ones mouth?)

[edblysard]

Dan,
I live in a house full of women, a 4 year old, one 10, and a 16 year old, plus my wife.
How often do you think I get a crack at the washing machine?

RRwife,
Gald both you and your husband take pride in his job, and his commitment to it.
Thats exactally what I was trying to get to, some of us want to do this, no matter what we have to put up with in the process.
But it shouldnt cost you to go to work railroading, the carriers should be activly recruiting guys like your husband, and investing in their training.

But railroads play their personel cost real clost to the vest, and this time around, they goofed.
No one looked at the trends close enough to realize they were going to run out of crews.
And now, they have trains, lots of them, and no one to run them.

The Feds only require you to pass a written test, so a two week cram course works, sorta of.

What it boils down to is railroads are flat out of people.

Checked the dispatcher site this morning, we have 15 grain trains waiting to get into Houston right now, spaced 6 hours apart, and more on the way.

And UP and BNSF dont have crews for half of them.
Right now, all the are looking for is warm bodies.

Dan was correct, it is cost effective to train us correctly at the get go.

I had two weeks book training, two weeks practice in a hands on enviroment, then was assigned to a mentor for 3 months, before I was marked up as a helper, at 75% pay.
At the end of my 3 months, I got my foreman rights, at 80%, next year 85%, you get the point.

But the three months with the mentor was what paid off most.

I learned more from him in that 3 months that I have learned in the past 7 years.

Because he showed me first how to do things, then allowed me to do it under supervision, then alone.
So he built up not only my skill, but my confidence.

He invested time in me, and therefore invested time in our railroad.

Yes, it is different on regionals and short lines, we do seem to take more pride in what we do, but that may be because we, the switchmen and engineers, have to often deal with the customers directly, and have to put up with the gripes in person if we dont do it right.

I havent worked for a class 1, so I cant realisticly speak about pride there, but I do know a few guys from the Santa Fe, and they really liked working there, and took pride in their railroad.
It showed.
Just read this forum, you can find several NS, CSX, BNSF and UP employees who dont like their jobs, or have a gripe with how their railroad is run, or their railroads management...
ever see a Santa Fe employee gripe here?

Dan, I think CNW wasnt mismanaged, it just didnt have any way to grow its business, and with UP and BN on the prowl, and their long association with UP made the purchase inevitable.

Kinda like the Katy, they had no choice, they couldnt get any bigger, and if you cant grow your business, well...you sell it to the guys who can.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forums, I'm not such a lucky man as your husband is, My Girlfriend has never really approved of me working on Trains.

I can vouch for that, all the jerk and fool new heads were let go within a week. I'm still standing after two yearsm and I LIKE being a new head, although some old heads don't like me one bit, but thats fine.. I never said I cared.

How old is your husband, if you don't mind me asking..?

[Anonymous]

Hi all. I have been reading the topics of various forums with great interest. I have gained alot of insight to the railroading world today. Very enlightening.

I am the wife of a road freight conductor of less than 2 years. It is the best job he has ever had. He worked 5 years retail management and did 4 years in the Military. He has tried hard to learn all he can and do the safest, most effective job he can.
For the old heads-------You cant just start working for the railroads anymore----the times have changed. We paid large money for him to take a course that covered HazMat/Signals/Regulations and FRA Laws. We did not get reimbursed the $4250.00 course fee, nor did he get paid for the 5 weeks that it took for him to take the class. (There was no time left in the day for him to work another job. There was also NO guarantee of a job when he finished-just an interview) He worked for 4 months at substantially less than he was making as a retail manager and was gone for days at a time training. He is now a road conductor and is gone all the time and still doesnt make full pay.
We figure that going to work for the railroad cost us about 30k (cash out of pocket in course fees and lost wages) .

What did that money get? A competant conductor that is committed to his job and company. He may not know all the old ways, but he is knowledgable about what he needs to do and how to do it safely.
Are all new heads like that? Probably not. You are always going to work with jerks and fools but in this job they dont survive long do they? Some of the old heads give the new heads a hard time figuring they have not paid their dues. We paid.

RAILROADING IS STILL A GOOD, HONEST, RESPECTABLE, EXCELLENT PAYING JOB.
I am proud to be a trainman's wife.
Thanks....now kick the soapbox out from under me.
RRWife

[Anonymous]

See thats all I've run over, A mangie skunk, that was in bad health anyways

I still couldn't sleep that night, it was quite morally dipressing.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman



Wait, do skunks Count?

Only if they work in Uncle Petes corporate offices.....

[dharmon]

I don't mean to change the subject or anything...but the last three posts, check the times.....

[Anonymous]

Just so we all know

I havn't (Touch Titanium or "wood" but thats old school) hit anyone, or anything,

Wait, do skunks Count?

WHY should they count, it's not like it was YOUR PET or anyhting...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Eric,
The reason I wanted to borrow one of yours is because all of mine are in use, or in the washing machine!

Not wait a cotton pickin minute...you work for a switching road......shouldn't be any overnighters...so where are all your socks?[;)]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

See personally, I can't imagoine 2 week wonders ruling the Railroad, my Training took 1 year, and another 6 months of taking various Engineer Tests.

Two weeks sounds like a breeze, but how can they compact a one year course (what I got) into Two weeks, or are there important things being left out?

I can't imagine learning that quickly in two weeks. It would be impossible for me, I'm a fast learner but not two wekks fast learner.

As a in-the-trench worker you have 18 months training but what if that two-week wonder is in the corporate office, straight out of business school, and is more concerned with his stock options than worker safety?

I think that is the primary point of this conversation.

Just my two cents worth and its only worth about 2 cents...

[techguy57]

Okay, so I couldn't hold my tongue any longer. If I don't start moving it it'll probably freeze anyway.

I think there will always be some differing of opinions between the new and the old no matter what line of work you are in but the point I see Ed is making is really about experience more than ability. Kevin, please take note, as this also relates to your posts as well. Ed, and really also Mark H's article, seem to be reffering to the rise in new hires leading to its natural progression of having train personnel with very little experience. Now Kevin, I haven't reviewed your safety record but it seems to me that only having 6 collisions is considerably within the limitations [:D]so you are definitely an exception to the rule. I think the real concern comes with personnel that need the experience to stay within the established guidelines.

Okay, let me make an analogy. Everyone probably knew someone from school, be it high school or college or whatever, who cut class a lot or slept through classes. Maybe even it was you ( I had a semester at college like that).
Now, if that same person chose to be a surgeon in your town, would you rather he spent a week studying and then begin practicing because of financial constraints or take his time with his studies until he and his instructors were fully confident that he could perform successfully. Ideally most of us would prefer the latter, especially if we are the ones being operated on. Realistically each person learns at a different pace and some of the candidates might not be ready for decades if this is how it really worked. So there are time restrictions and ready or not at some point they have to be tested to see how much they have learned. But just as Ed and Mark both wrote, the ones who find challenge and enjoyment in their work are the ones who tend to excel. If the railroads want to do a two week course AND THEY CAN DO IT SAFELY, then I think let them do it. But if they are just hiring and passing a bunch of folks just to have people to work, then there really is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Dan- As for a new startup RR in the mold of a Southwest, it seems to me that trackage rights are the biggest problem. I mean looking at all of the short lines like the Indiana Rail Road that have been successful they have made it by buying track that no one else wanted or by providing more specific services that the big carriers can't afford to. I think it would be difficult to start up a Class I from scratch. Just an opinion.

Hope this help the discussion along.

Mike

[dharmon]

I guess my point was that RRs aren't unique in being different so to speak. The military is one example of a group that unless you are a member of it (like police or firemen or RRs) the average Joe (not Koh) may not have an understanding of the whys and how comes......But like the RRs we find ourselves in similiar positions regarding the new folks coming in. But that in it's self is an issue that old timers have always had...regardless of profession, and is not unique to RRs.

It is a shame that standardized training is not prevelant in RRs. Most is OJT it would seem. But then again, like I said, training someone to fly and making them a combat pilot is two different things and the reality is, OJT is huge. You can put someone in a simulator (plane or train) and teach them to drive......but until they feel it under their butts and hear the real sounds.....it ain't real. That cold feeling in your stomach that something isn't right can't be simulated or taught, they gotta go out and do it, so your job becomes harder as you do yours and train them at the same time.

It would seem that the RRs should see it as a cost savings to provide better and standardized training. Accidents from a purely financial perspective are expensive. If you did a cost analysis of a crews that had standardized training vs crews that did not, taking into the cost of any accidents involving the two groups, I would venture to bet that the cost of formal training would be less than clean up. That's why airlines invest a fair amount of bucks into their training facilities and companies like Flight Safety International stay in business. It's a simple business decision. Accidents cost money. Lots of money. Is the cost of a wrecked SD70 more or less than the cost of making a six or eight week training syllabus or what about a HAZMAT cleanup?

So CNW tried employee ownership and failed. Why was that? Why not try it again? You won't get things to change unless management is forced to change them. It would seem at the rate things are going, something has to change or RRs are going to be thing of the past.

[rrnut282]

Just a thought, but could the percieved lack of "pride in the RR" have a lot to do with the dim view the RR takes of fans? i.e. I don't want to labelled as a foamer so I'll pretend to not care.

[Anonymous]

See personally, I can't imagoine 2 week wonders ruling the Railroad, my Training took 1 year, and another 6 months of taking various Engineer Tests.

Two weeks sounds like a breeze, but how can they compact a one year course (what I got) into Two weeks, or are there important things being left out?

I can't imagine learning that quickly in two weeks. It would be impossible for me, I'm a fast learner but not two wekks fast learner.

[daveklepper]

Ed, I understand this attitude, this problem you speak of, does not exist on some of the regional and short line carriers, where there still is genuine pride in being part of the whole outfit. Would you advise a young aspiring railroader to get his first experience on one of the those railroads? Dave

[edblysard]

Eric,
The reason I wanted to borrow one of yours is because all of mine are in use, or in the washing machine!

Dan, your right on the mark, military life is, like railroading, a closed society,
with it own code of behaviour and unwritten rules.

You already know why I correct people when they call me Mister Blysard, I tell them no, thats my father.

And yes, old heads, be it pilots or conductors, do teach and train the new guys, as a matter of self preseveration, if for no other reason.

None of us want to see a new guy get hurt, or killed.
Neither do we want to see one of our friends killed, or ourselves be hurt or killed because no one taught the new guy what to do, and what not to do.

My point was that railroads are counting on that, instead providing a basic boot camp first, they are just going through the motions, and counting on us to fill in the missing parts.

Now, I am by no means a old head, I have been railroading only 7 years, but came to this industry at age 38, a little older and more mature than most "new" guys, and had already discovered I am not bullet proof.

The new crop of trainees are almost all kids, ( no offense intended Kevin) so you already know their attitude.

I can teach a baboon to pull pins and line switches, but I cant teach one to use their judgement, nor can I give them skill at this, any more than you can give a skill to a fighter pilot, you can teach him to fly, and fly reallly well, but the skill to be the best is something he has to develope on his own.

I, and you, can nuture the "skill", if it is already present, but we cant give or teach it to someone.

My beef was that the basics, how to safely get on and off a moving railcar, why a handbrake tied to tight is useless, what sounds should you listen for, why we dont take chances with this stuff, isnt being taught by the carriers.

And it is true, your pay, even as a combat pilot, sucks compaired to what you could earn in the private sector.

How the armed services gets people to stay is something most folks, outside of the military life, wont ever see or understand.

It is a secret society, where one group of people have to call my dad Chief, and others can call him Mister instead.

It is all about being one of the few who do wear the colors, and guard the citizens and the country from peril.

It is all about duty, loyality, service and sacrifice, performed with pride, and secure in the knowledge that your comrades respect you for your skills and abilities, not because you "earn" more money that someone else.

And railroads have lost the willingness to creat that pride in service amoungest their employees, they flat dont care if you want to work for them or not.

We are reduced to nothing more that warm bodies filling a slot.
And that attitude is slowly trickleing down into the rank and file, who did, at one time, take pride in their work and craft.

When I came out here, we did it right, because we wanted to.
I took pride in telling people where I worked, and what I did.

I still do, but I have noticed that quite a few other railroaders no longer wear their "colors" with pride.

And that is what is going to cost railroads in a big way.

Because if a person no longer takes pride in his craft or job, he dosnt perform as well or safely as he should.

Stay frosty,
Ed

[daveklepper]

Ed, you really got it right in answering Kevin, and think you are really on the ball. Note that Mark is not afraid to point out that GM mentions EMD's part in their organization and profit structure only in a footnotein their Annual Report. Everyone interesting the future of the rail industry should work together, and usually I find inspiration in TRAINS on how that can be accomplished. That, together with the nostalgia and the technical articles and the armchair experience of being on the property make it extremely worthwhile. When I get each issue, I am almost distracted from important matters that I must do because I find the material both interesting and enjoyable reading. Sometimes Mark makes a point very subtly that others of us would make by lashing out. He ran a story about a couple who like to live a car-free existance, and this made the point in an enjoyable and noncombatitive way that owning a car should, in a civilized country, be an option and not a necessity. He showed a 1960's era photo of a streetcar on St. Charles in New Orleans (a beautiful ride, by the way, I recommend it if you are there, and it was once a steam railway), which made the point that there was no real good reason for any large USA city to scrap its streetcar network, and we all know why most cities were forced to do so and who was to blame. The reporting on the relationship between the Government and the Industry is important. And it is also obvious that he thinks highly of Canadians and Canadian railways, and that Canadian's happiness is of concern to him just as citizens of the USA. When Israelis and Europeans ask me "What is your favorite American City?" I almost always reply, "My favorite USA city happens to be in Canada, Toronto." Then: "Yes, because it is the only American city that decided that people were more important the automobiles. It kept its streetcars, not because there were tunnels or subways or huge stretches of rapid-transit-like right-of-way, but just ordinary streetcars, sharing the street with automobiles and stopping and every other corner." One European responded: "Ah yes, Toronto. New York City run by the Swiss!" Dave

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


OK, Kenno, got the other sock handy?
Stay frosty,
Ed

Ed, I have a whole drawer full of them! And you can call me Eric. I can send you a few, but they have already been used.[:-,]

And I don't need to stay frosty tonight. It is 16 degrees and blowing a blizzard. We are supposed to have a foot of snow tonight. Oh, how I hope that weatherman is wrong. I got to work ahead of the plows. [sigh]

[dharmon]

Ed,

Your right, we don't stick"em a plane and go "off you go". But there is a huge difference between teaching someone to fly and making them a pilot and making them a combat pilot. That's like high school, college and masters difference. What I was trying to say is that ......... I was the young dude in a world of Desert Storm veterens.....and they went...who's gonnna teach this guy......he knows nothing .... he and his buddies just want to chase tail, drink beer and mess around......they can barely fly the plane much less fight the plane, and they want to change the way we do things....a whole three years later, I'm leaving the unit, going, who they hell is going to teach these guys how to stay out of trouble.....and less than a year later, I hear my old co-pilot is doing the things that I did.......only better! What I was getting at was they are there (Naval Aviation or Union Pacific) because they want to be...it's not the pay or the bennies, it's the lifestyle, the camraderie, the thrill, etc. Every generation, heck every few years the guys say the same thing....... The military goes through rich and lean years..some years we can fly the wings off the planes, some years we're killing each other to get a couple of hours....it doesn't matter. the old dudes train the new ones regardless, and sometimes the new dudes ask us why we do it a certain way, and we suddenly realize that because we've always done it this way isn;t the right answer. When guys start talkin bout ...the new guys it starts to rub me........So if if takes awhile to to train a new dude or one from UP or BNSF to run PTRA, you do it. It helps you and it helps him, so it helps you. They don't learn sometimes unless you do it.

Ed, I'm really not fightin , honest........but you said....so I'm going to use it againt you.............

"And the culture of railroading is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here..."

You are the son of a CPO......tell me that can't be said of the service..hold on let me do put it this way....

" And the culture of (Army / Navy / Air Force / Marines / Airlines / Merchant Marine / Oil Rig Dudes / Truck Drivers / Policemen / Firemen /EMTs / Nurses / Teachers / etc.....) is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here..."

See what I mean........don't hit me bro...just using your words, sort of......

I understand what you mean, RRs may be special cases, but not that special....


My original question was, really and without malice, okay.... CNW didn't work, but why can't employee owned be done. There are sucessful models in other industries, why not RRs ?

And don't give anymore of the lost art, new guys got no history, no experience, no reason to live, a' in't gonna make it BS, ......RRs are just one of several professions that people do cause they want to.....not the only one.....or I'll sic Kevin on you again..[:)]

[edblysard]

Hi Kevin,

Dude, I think you missed Marks point, or I didnt express it in quite the manner he intended...

He wasnt asking "do we need railroads?"
I think he was asking, "do railroads know how badly they need us?"

What he was trying to get across was that, at one point in time, almost every small town and city in America and Canada had one major employeer, a railroad.
The railroad brought the people who built the towns, and employeed most of the population.

If you needed a job, you almost had to ask the railroad for work.

You needed to work for the railroad, because there wasnt any other jobs around.

And railroads could be picky about who they hired, you almost had to have a relative working there to get on.

Now, things have changed...

there are many other jobs, blue collar jobs, that pay better than railroading.

And railroads cant be picky anymore, they are out of people.

People no longer need to work for a railroad to make a decent living.

What he was pointing out was that some people, me, you, wabash, kenno and mudchicken, work for railroads because we want to, not because we have to.

No one doubts you love your job, myself, I almost cant remember the last jobs I had before railroading.

Dan, your right, the young guys will learn by trial and error, but like flying, they have to have the basics taught to them, you dont turn a rookie loose in a F11 to practice first, someone, like you, teaches them the basics over and over till they can do it in their sleep, then let them solo.

Sadly, the railroads dont think it is necessary anymore.

So we have two week wonders, (instead of 90 day wonders), as conductors on big, dangerous trains.

Here is a scary though.

Unlike the military, where boot camps, be it Navy, Army or Airforce, even the Marines, are all pretty muck alike, railroads dont have a unified training program.

If your in boot camp, every service teaches you the same basics, how to march in formation, how to salute, how to shoot, and field clean a weapon, how to talk on a radio, what to do when captured, you get the point.

But BNSF teaches a different lenght of time, and different skills, than UP, who donst teach the same basics that NS or CSX teaches.

So a guy who may be a qualified conductor on BNSF needs a babysitter on the PTRA.

Kevin is a qualified passenger conductor and engineer on CP, but would be lost down here, same as I would be up there, ( I guess you dont kick those passenger cars down to the joint?)

And the culture of railroading is almost beyond the understanding of someone outside the industry looking in...throw out almost every business practice and guidline you learned, that dog just dont bark out here...

If Enron had hired railroad accountants, well....

Management needs labor, as labor needs management, to be, on the surface, antagonistic towards each other, it helps justify each one actions and exsistence.

Management needs labor unions, and their attitude, to justify their heavy handedness, if they slack off even a little bit, labor will run off with the railroad.

Labor, of course, needs management to be buttheads, to justify their exsistence, if it wasnt for unions, workers would barely survive a day....
blah blah blah...each feeds off the other, and it is exactly what both sides want, it keeps the status quo.

Railroads, and railroaders, hate and resist change, even the smallest one.

And neither side will ever admitt that, if they both sat down, and placed both sides basic needs, and those of the industry as a whole, on the table, and worked towards a contract that was mutialy benifical for each other, they could work wonders.
Fat chance, but you never know...

Mark was right, we dont need to work for a railroad,
but some of us still want too!

OK, Kenno, got the other sock handy?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

Hey, Kevin --- ease up, lad. When I would go off the deep end about some subject or another, after waiting for me to stop for a breath, he'd say "Put a sock in it! Let your mouth rest a bit and your ears do some work for a change." So listen a minute, please.

You have your opinion and we can see that it is strongly held. That is OK, because change does not come from milquetoast. However, change or even the simple acceptance of your opinion by others comes much quicker when one uses the "humble approach". With that method, I get up on my soap box and say my peice and then get down, you, then, get up on your soap box and say your piece and then get down. I listen to you and you listen to me, whether or not we agree, we do it as gentlemen. Then, being the gentlemen we are, we go off together to railroad, you run the engine and I'll take the tickets - TOGETHER we will make the train run.

Now, I'll be quiet and you can take the sock out, having wearied your ears listening to an old fart who has been around more barns, yards and wrecks in my 60 years than you even know exist.

I'll sit back, now, and listen to you and consider your thoughts. My sock has been inserted.