edbenton wrote:I do give Clark county props for having a good Hazmat team. However unless they are ready the second that car or tanker is busted open the time it takes to get there is going to be to long. Most Hazmat teams have a respone time of 45 mins in 45 mins that tanker will be empty in if it is a large enough hole. When I was a mechanic we had the emergancy shut off valve drop out of a acid taker that was loaded. 48K lbs of pure sulphric acid hit the gound in 10 mins out of a 1 inch hole without any air pressure. Now you rupture a pressure vessel that time goes down big time. By the time our local Hazmat team got to us 25 mins later all they could do was dilute it and start to counter it which it was already doing being it hit crushed limestone. The fact is we are lucky that nothing major has happened in one of our major cities yet involving a poison gas cloud from either a truck or a RR car. The drivers that haul it OTR and the RR's do everything they can to keep us safe however sooner or later Mr. Murphy will get in there and screw us over.
Most Haz-Mat teams have a response time of 45 minutes??? What is the basis for that fact?? I can assure you, without fear of contradiction, that where I come from that is just simply not the case.... In all of my years of experience, from watching the City of Chicago, to suburban fire departments, Haz-Mat responses are on the order of 15 minutes or less....... The fire department is on the scene in 4-6 minutes, standard response time. Count on it. I was a dispatcher for years, I grew up around the fire service, I was a firefighter myself. "Most haz-mat" teams taking 45 minutes??? Not true, sir, simply not true. In the Chicago area, and the city of Chicago itself, Haz-Mat training is constant, and continually being upgraded. Chicago has a dedicated Haz-Mat response team, that is on duty 24/7, and can go anyhwere in the city and get there in far less than 45 minutes. On any given shift in any firehouse around here, in the suburbs you will have one or more Haz-Mat techs on duty.
A full fledged Haz-Mat box alarm (bringing in mutual aid) will get additional techs, vehicles, and equipment to the scene in 15 minutes or less. All the while the first in companies are working on identification, containment, and evacuation. I have NEVER seen it take less than that. Unless it is in the middle of a rural area, I have yet to see a haz-mat response take that long. I have witnessed potentially dangerous situations brought under control by the rapid actions of the Haz-Mat teams.
And, if the reported spill or leak is something as dangerous as chlorine, the response will be vigorous, and fast. In fact, as a dispatcher, if we got a call of a leak or spill of a highly dangerous substance such as chlorine, we had the authority to automatically make it a Haz-Mat box. On doing that, it brought several towns, all within 5 miles with their techs and equipment to the scene. We coordinated closely with the police to execute evacuation plans, and such. The suburbs are laced with the railroad tracks, Haz-Mat is very much on the minds of every fire chief, shift commander, and firefighter around here.
ericsp wrote:By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.
That's where they landed, huh?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
edbenton wrote:Most of the Strip has built walkways over the RR tracks for people to walk to avoid the inconvience of being delayed by the trains. The Clark County Hazmat team may be good however faced with Chlorine gas they are out of their league big time. ..snip..
When was the last time you were in Vegas?
The UP parallels Las Vegas Boulevard (the Strip) about 2 blocks to the west, and is crossed by road bridges that have to go up and over. Sidewalk level on The Strip and ballast level on the railroad are very close to one another. (The pedestrian bridges cross Las Vegas Boulevard and a couple of major cross-streets, not the railroad.)
In addition to traveling hazmat (road and rail) the Clark County Hazmat Team has to be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of an accident involving any of the numerous aircraft using Nellis AFB and McCarran. There are also several local users/producers of toxic substances, most of which have more than a tank-car load on hand at any given time. Don't underestimate the training and expertise involved.
Just in passing, with the possible exception of two posters whose locations are not disclosed, I seem to be the only resident of Clark County who has responded to this subject...
Chuck
ericsp wrote: erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA? The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat. I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.asp
erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA? The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat.
ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA?
The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat.
I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.
http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.asp
You're right in that the Pepcon operation was moved to Utah - not sure if Kerr-McGee's operation was moved (or is still in production). Looks like the Pepcon site is only a few blocks away from the Pioneer plant.
What impressed me was that Pioneer produces 150,000 tons of chlorine per year in Henderson - with a major leak at the plant and the wind blowing the right way, Lost Wages would have to worry about something much worse than a single RR tank car with chlorine.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
ericsp wrote:I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
edbenton wrote:Mustard gas is heavier than air Clorine gas is lighter than air and spreads very fast.
Molecular weight of air is a bit over 28 (mostly N2), molecular weight of Chlorine is about 71 - considerably heavier than air (also heavier than propane or butane).
Krazykat112079 wrote: Well, with as much chlorine is used in today's society and the amounts that must be shipped all over, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more accidents and fatalities. Most municipalities that have a water treatment system uses chlorine and/or ammonia and you wouldn't want a tank of that breaking open either. There is an ozone process, but that requires liquid oxygen transport....if you ever want to see a tanker turn to a pile of iron oxide in one quick flash, just spark one of them. Probably take several cars either side, the rails, ties, anything combustible (including iron) within several hundred feet.
Well, with as much chlorine is used in today's society and the amounts that must be shipped all over, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more accidents and fatalities. Most municipalities that have a water treatment system uses chlorine and/or ammonia and you wouldn't want a tank of that breaking open either.
There is an ozone process, but that requires liquid oxygen transport....if you ever want to see a tanker turn to a pile of iron oxide in one quick flash, just spark one of them. Probably take several cars either side, the rails, ties, anything combustible (including iron) within several hundred feet.
Some of that credit goes to some of our best drivers who haul the stuff without any problems.
Personally I would not put those loads on my 5th wheel. It is enough to have had that one load with 6000 gallons of acid in car boys sloshing back and forth trying to get out any way it could for a thousand miles. For a old milk tanker man like me I could not get rid of it fast enough.
edbenton wrote:The Clark County Hazmat team may be good however faced with Chlorine gas they are out of their league big time.
Go to World War One and learn about how the troops dealt with the chlorine and mustard gas.
Let's just say that any population center downwind and "Lower" in ground level than the incident as expressed in MSL is dead. Then it will take time for the stuff to evaporate (I have another word, but cannot spell it and chose a close match) and as it does, it will inflict more dead and casulties.
If one ever wrecks in my area we would grab mask filters and hope to live long enough to escape the area. It really does not matter to us one way or another as we both are DNR's anyhow but life in a gassed out town filled with dead and dying with no infrastructure is no fun.
CShaveRR wrote: I'm not sure, but tank cars for transportation of hazardous materials (or a subset thereof, such as pressurized gases) may be limited to a 263K gross rail load. I just had a look (on the computer) at the newest chlorine tank cars I could think of, and they have a 263K GRL and a capacity of around 17,350 gallons. I don't know at what pressure chlorine is transported by rail (the cars test at 500 psi, but it's probably less than that), but you're talking about a pretty big cloud of gas if one of these cars exhausts itself.There are supposed to be new standards for hazmat cars coming out, so we'll see cars less likely to be broken open by a routine accident such as might have resulted from a collision or derailment.
I'm not sure, but tank cars for transportation of hazardous materials (or a subset thereof, such as pressurized gases) may be limited to a 263K gross rail load. I just had a look (on the computer) at the newest chlorine tank cars I could think of, and they have a 263K GRL and a capacity of around 17,350 gallons. I don't know at what pressure chlorine is transported by rail (the cars test at 500 psi, but it's probably less than that), but you're talking about a pretty big cloud of gas if one of these cars exhausts itself.
There are supposed to be new standards for hazmat cars coming out, so we'll see cars less likely to be broken open by a routine accident such as might have resulted from a collision or derailment.
Not sure about the 263K limit, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Also, remember that gas under pressure won't necessarily stay close to the ground immediately. A lot of that will depend upon how the tank is ruptured. Chlorine will being to sink into hollows after it is released. Also, wind conditions and humidity will play a factor in the spread and direction of the cloud.
LC
edbenton wrote:Mustard gas is heavier than air Clorine gas is lighter than air and spreads very fast. If the tanker trailer I was hauling ever leaked it carried 5K gallons under pressure we had to EVACUATE A 10 MILE RADIUS AREA IN 30 mins or those people were DEAD. Chlorine gas is very dangerous and considering that tank car carried maybe 40K or more in gallons you would had to evac 40 square miles in less than an hour then decontaminate the whole area. Chlorine gas is the same stuff that was leaked in Grantville SC the conductor and engineer of the train that hit the tanker had no chance at all. That accident in a sparsly populated rural area still killed 6 and kept people out of their houses for weeks now imagine the same thing in downtown Vegas or Chicago or DC.
Ed -
With due respect chlorine gas is heavier than air. Also, the NS engineer at Graniteville died (I knew him, R.I.P. Chris Seeling), the conductor survived, although he was exposed to chlorine. Eight others also died.
Evacs are a way of life anymore with RR incidents if there is even a chance of a chlorine spill.
Well, on second thought, maybe not a trench -- but I thought I recalled the tracks in some locations being below street level, like at the south end of the strip. Or so they seemed when we passed over them.
PZ, I know there's a trench for the tracks in Reno, but is Vegas also so blessed?
From the sound of the precautions, primarily the "anchor" car (we call them "posts" in Proviso), it sounds like the tank car may have been kicked into a clear or underprotected track by a yard crew. The kicking of such cars is allowed, but somebody somewhere figured it would stop/be stopped, and it didn't/wasn't.
Emergency notification: If my "kicking" scenario is the correct one, it's possible that the crew that did it had no idea what had happened at the opposite end of the yard. And if nobody was on the lead or elsewhere, who would notice the car roll out, hit a derail if there were one, and run through a switch and get out onto the main line? Probably nobody, until a member of the public encountered it at a crossing. The dispatcher might get an indication that something was on the track there, and start asking questions, but he probably didn't have an answer for anyone. The car itself wasn't going to tell him who it was or where it was headed.
It's sad that some politicians are just now realizing that in a yard like that, there is always something hazardous. I guess the fact that this came as a surprise to them says a lot about how well it's usually handled.
Oh...and yes, chlorine's heavier than air (and tank cars for chlorine rarely carry more than 17,000 gallons of the stuff, under pressure). It's frequently on some of our minds what we would do if there was a rupture of a pressure tank--should we try and get out of there, or stay up above it?
From the Center For Disease Control's web site:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/chlorine/basics/facts.asp
Chlorine gas is two and one-half times heavier than air. In downtown Las Vegas, the RR tracks run in a trench. So wouldn't most of the gas would settle in the trench -- at least in the area around the casinos?
It being heavier than air is one of the characteristics that made it so popular for use in trench warfare during the early days of WW I.
Despite all the bombast from the political set, it is apparent that what could have been a very major incident was avoided mostly by luck. Remember the pictures from Denver a couple of months ago regarding a BNSF tank car runaway. As was brought out elsewhere, the first notification of this problem came from the general public, and apparently the UP was very late in admitting their stray car was a hazmat.
In a press release which has not as yet been included in UP's web site (so I can't give you a link), they say the following actions have been implemented:
1) "Anchor" cars are placed on the north end of every track in the Arden yard, with handbrakes applied.
2) Locomotives are used to move hazmat tank cars, and the cars secured before the loco is disconnected.
3) A review of emergency notification procedures is underway.
Actions to come include "engineering changes" to the yard, a review of safety procedures at yards across the system, and information about the cause of the incident.
All of that is well and good; but considering what might have happened, it strikes me that this incident was serious enough to directly involve the feds. I don't know if the NTSB has the authority to involve themselves in a non-accident; but if they do not have it, they should. I'd be particularly be interested in just what went wrong here because I am under the impression that much of the above is already standard practice.
Dakguy201 wrote: Mayor Goodman wants municipal legislation compelling notification about each movement of a hazmat car? What does he believe, that railroads will only schedule a runaway after filing the appropriate paperwork?I sujggest he go stand trackside and take notice of any manifest train that comes by. I think it is highly probable it is going to contain some hazmat. He might have to create an "Office of Railroad Paperwork" to properly receive and file such notifications.Additionally, it seems probable to me he is going to run into federal preemption of railroad regulation, but I am not an expert in that area.A few more good ideas and this guy could qualify to join Senator Reid.
Mayor Goodman wants municipal legislation compelling notification about each movement of a hazmat car? What does he believe, that railroads will only schedule a runaway after filing the appropriate paperwork?
I sujggest he go stand trackside and take notice of any manifest train that comes by. I think it is highly probable it is going to contain some hazmat. He might have to create an "Office of Railroad Paperwork" to properly receive and file such notifications.
Additionally, it seems probable to me he is going to run into federal preemption of railroad regulation, but I am not an expert in that area.
A few more good ideas and this guy could qualify to join Senator Reid.
Be careful of what you ask for.....You may get it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This whole thread has been quite the gas!
The mayor Fuming, the people unaware and innocent of the danger on the track and the ones responsible are being cashed out while the powers that be attempt to cap the whole sorry scene.
Maybe it SHOULD stay in Las Vegas.
I don't know. Nobody could acheive that plane of existence without a massive frontal lobotomy.
Wouldn't be the first time a car climbed over a hoptoad and kept going either
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.