Las Vegas Mayor Upset about UP Runaway Chlorine Car

[baberuth73]

Something that wasn't widely publicized about the Graniteville incident is that the engineer, who was being carried to safety by the conductor, possibly could have been saved. A man, who was labeled a hero by the media, drove his vehicle close enough that he could speak to the conductor and then just drove off. Didn't offer to drive the guys to safety. The engineer died but the conductor survived with badly "burned" lungs.

[zugmann]

2nd time you posted this. 

Shall I assume you have some vested interest in this?

[rudycaparros]

HazMat Experts and Firefighters petition Dow Chemical and Union Pacific for safe rail tank cars transporting gas chlorine. Secondary containment is a necessary improvement that must be implemented. See--PETITION C KIT for First Responders Comments.

[tomikawaTT]

I wish Senator Harry Reed would stick a sock in his mouth.

What a terrible fate for a poor, innocent sock.

From the various posts above, it's obvious that UP has gone a long way in addressing the identified problems (including parking 'anchor' cars in the Henderson yard.)  OTOH, the local news channel had to come up with something/anything to distract people from mass mortgage foreclosures, slack tourism and a soft economy.  Who better to kick than the one entity in town that almost nobody knows anything about?

Hate to admit it, but I am thunderously underimpressed with the reporting of this incident a year later, as if nothing had changed in the meantime.

Chuck (Clark County resident)

[caldreamer]

I wish Senator Harry Reed would stick a sock in his mouth.

[Anonymous]

Union Pacific workers threw wood boards under the tires to stop the car.

Did anyone notice the above in the article. Para 5 last sentence.

Your right what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. At least the car did not go anywhere else. Like California.(yes I know wrong way)

By the way who's was the receiver of the errant car?

Thx IGN

[choochoobuff]

Back in the 60's half of Vegas was already gassed, especially Dean Martin.  That is nasty stuff, I have a friend who works at the local water plant, and this chemical is not to be trifled with.  As for Harry Reid, the gas he spreads is more lethal than Chlorine.

 

[csmith9474]

Yes, it was in the news, about a year ago.  Did something else occur to make the timing of this release critical, or is somebody just trolling the public again?

UP has put some operating rule changes in place that directly affect the handling of chlorine and other "inhalation hazard" tank cars.  They're system-wide--I know that, because we've run up against events that are handled differently now than they would have been last year.  New tank car specifications are in the works.  UP is helping with those, but I don't think it's tied in directly with this incident.

And Tomikawa's right--the upshot of this whole thing is that, although plenty could have happened, nothing did happen.  So if one says that nothing happens with all of those trucks on the Interstate, think about what could happen, due either to fatigue, human error, weather conditions, or maybe just a simple bending of a speed limit (which is kind of bent already in Nevada!).

Should Vegas offer odds on who will have the next disaster?

A few years back while we were stationed in San Antonio (I am also originally from that area as well), there was a derailment on the UP that resulted in the release of quite a bit of chlorine gas. I recall that there was at least one death (possibly more) and several injuries that was directly attributed to the chlorine. The authorities came down on the UP really hard, so I know there was some changes that were a direct result of that derailment. Of course the UP's history in San Antonio (especially after the Espee takeover) has been really rough.

The media in San Antonio, it seems, has played a large role in the public's negative perception of the UP. If somebody in East Yard sneezes the wrong way, they are all over it.

[Dakguy201]

Local TV news just ran a short piece on the runaway.  A year after the fact, they finally released the 911 call tape.  Sounds like, "Chicken Little Meets The Keystone Kops!"

(portion of post omitted)

For her part, the 911 op was just as confused.  I don't think she had any idea of where the railroad is located.  She definitely wasn't getting the idea that some kind of emergency response would be appropriate.  I will grant that she was calmer and more professional, but she didn't have any idea of what questions to ask.

When this happened, the UP announced a series of measures, both for this yard and for other yards, to prevent recurrence.  From the posts above, it sounds like those measures have been implemented, although it wouldn't hurt to seek ground truth to be sure.

One wonders, however, what (if any) corrective measures have been taken by the City or Clark County or whoever is in charge of the emergency system out there.  Do the operators have any knowledge regarding the locations of railroads and/or the potential for a hazmat problem? 

Just offhand, I would suspect the railroad has been a lot more effective in addressing the shortcomings revealed by the incident. 

[CShaveRR]

Yes, it was in the news, about a year ago.  Did something else occur to make the timing of this release critical, or is somebody just trolling the public again?

UP has put some operating rule changes in place that directly affect the handling of chlorine and other "inhalation hazard" tank cars.  They're system-wide--I know that, because we've run up against events that are handled differently now than they would have been last year.  New tank car specifications are in the works.  UP is helping with those, but I don't think it's tied in directly with this incident.

And Tomikawa's right--the upshot of this whole thing is that, although plenty could have happened, nothing did happen.  So if one says that nothing happens with all of those trucks on the Interstate, think about what could happen, due either to fatigue, human error, weather conditions, or maybe just a simple bending of a speed limit (which is kind of bent already in Nevada!).

Should Vegas offer odds on who will have the next disaster?

[tomikawaTT]

How and why did this incident become widely known?

Well, it was in the news.

It was very much in the news when it happened, both locally and nationally.  What burns my bearings is that of the plethora of pundits who were doing their best to stir up the NIMBYs, then and now, NOT ONE mentioned the virtual nose-to-tail stream of placarded 18-wheelers running parallel to the UP (and only a few hundred yards away) on I-15 through downtown and 'tourist' Las Vegas.  As a local, an impartial observer and a former disaster control specialist (USAF) I consider THAT to be a far greater danger than anything the UP is likely to get involved in.

Incidentally, somebody caught the runaway on video while it was doing its solo roll.  I think they picked the worst of the available 911 tapes to broadcast.  Managed news, anyone?

Chuck (Clark County resident)

[tree68]

How and why did this incident become widely known?

Well, it was in the news.

[K. P. Harrier]

How and why did this incident become widely known?

[NimbysRule]

Every once in a while, something like this happens and shows that the NIMBY's do have a legitimate right to be concerned for their immediate surroundings

[Ted Marshall]

Las Vegas officials peeved at runaway railcar

http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=37605 LAS VEGAS - The mayor never wants to be blindsided by a runaway car again, the KLAS Web site reports. Reaction and the fallout from Wednesday's runaway railcar containing the deadly chemical chlorine has come from just about everywhere. From changes the city of Las Vegas will make, to how the Clark County HAZMAT team could respond to a chlorine leak. The railcar coasted freely from south of Blue Diamond to North Las Vegas. The scariest thing for HAZMAT experts who looked at this incident is how close the railcar came to a lot of people. The track took it right behind the Mirage, Treasure Island, Fashion Show Mall, and Circus Circus. The runaway car went as fast as 55 miles-per-hour past the Clark County Government Center and downtown Las Vegas.

I remember this story.

I believe, as mayor of a city with the population of Las Vegas that I would be pretty upset too. This IS a big deal. It could easily have derailed and been struck by another train. Don't know what mainline speed is through town, but I imagine it's at least 55 mph. we're talking HUGE HAZMAT incident here. Luckily that didn't happen.

Clearly if there was a release incident as a result of that runaway tank car, the railroad would have a BIG problem on their hands and a lot of people would have to be evacuated real fast. Thinking about the logistics that must be involved makes my head spin so I think I can empathize with Mayor Goodman.

I can't imagine how many lawsuits would immediately follow; that makes my head spin too.  One thing's for certain, the finger will be immediately pointed at the railroad. Who else, right?

 

[gradyo54]

"Dinggy" Harry Reid, What a joke He is!!! Corrupt as they come! 

[tomikawaTT]

Not really resurrecting a dead horse here...

Local TV news just ran a short piece on the runaway.  A year after the fact, they finally released the 911 call tape.  Sounds like, "Chicken Little Meets The Keystone Kops!"

The gooney who made the call (Male local citizen) didn't give anything like a coherent description of what was going on, describing the single car as, "A train without a locomotive," and then 'clarifying(?)' as, "There's only one of it."  No direction, no speed (except, "Fast,") - reminded me why accident investigators hate having to interview civilian eyewitnesses.  He didn't even identify the runaway as a tank car, nor was there any mention of the presence of placards...

For her part, the 911 op was just as confused.  I don't think she had any idea of where the railroad is located.  She definitely wasn't getting the idea that some kind of emergency response would be appropriate.  I will grant that she was calmer and more professional, but she didn't have any idea of what questions to ask.

The rest of it was some technologically challenged 'investigative reporter,' fuming about what HE saw as non-response on UP's part (not that he would have been privy to any response.)

Luckily for all concerned, they DIDN'T interview Harry Reid.

Chuck (Clark County resident)

[Jack_S]

IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid

Hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid) is dissolved hydrogen chloride (HCl) in a solution of water (H2O). It is usually produced in solutions up to industrial grade (38% HCl, 62 % water).

Chlorine plus water is chlorinated water, found in thin solutions in swimming pools and many drinking water supplies.

Chlorine added to water will undergo the following reaction:

 H20 + 2Cl  ->  2HCl + O

The HCl is, of course, hydrochloric acid.  The O is nascent or monatomic oxygen.  O soon recombines into O2 or molecular oxygen, but if it comes into contact with other materials first, which is quite likely, it oxidizes them much more rapidly than normal molecular oxygen will.  That is how chlorinated water is made clean: the monatomic oxygen released by the production of HCl eats up any organic contaminants, including bacteria and viruses.  The HCl helps in this cleansing, but the main action is oxidation.

Obviuosly, a lot of chlorine in contact with water will produce a stronger acid concentration.

Jack

[ericsp]

IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid

Hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid) is dissolved hydrogen chloride (HCl) in a solution of water (H2O). It is usually produced in solutions up to industrial grade (38% HCl, 62 % water).

Chlorine plus water is chlorinated water, found in thin solutions in swimming pools and many drinking water supplies.

Chlorine will react with water to form HCl, among other things. See Section 10 of the linked MSDS.

http://www.piona.com/ehs/msds/cl2-e.pdf

[Poppa_Zit]

IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid

Hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid) is dissolved hydrogen chloride (HCl) in a solution of water (H2O). It is usually produced in solutions up to industrial grade (38% HCl, 62 % water).

Chlorine plus water is chlorinated water, found in thin solutions in swimming pools and many drinking water supplies.

[ericsp]

According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html

Thanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate. 

That be NASA. Right?

No, it would be the company that makes the boosters, Alliant Techsystems.

[NscaleMike]

I live in Henderson, not too far from the Kerr-McGhee, TIMET and Pioneer plants are located. They use a contract industrial switching company to sort out their carloads for the UP. "CANAC " www.CANAC.com It is the only RCL operation in the Vegas Valley at the moment.

[Anonymous]

According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html

Thanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate. 

That be NASA. Right?

[erikem]

According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html

Thanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate. 

[erikem]

Water fog, but the runoff must be diked (you're creating a lot of bleach, there).  According to the MSDS, sodium hydroxide/soda ash are the neutralizing agents.  Unfortunately, getting sufficient quantities for a large scale spill will take time. 

IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid - and NaOH makes for good neutralizing agent (yet another name for the stuff is soda lye). Dealing with either hydrocholic acid or bleach is a lot easier than chlorine gas.

By the way, does anyone remember the ca 1978 derailment in the southeast (Florida?) involving  chlorine tank cars? My recollection was that it was caused by sabotage and that 6 to 10 people died from the chlorine fumes (most on a nearby roadway). I also remember reading about efforts in the mid-60's to raise a barge with chlroine tanks - assumed it went well.

[tree68]

Water fog, but the runoff must be diked (you're creating a lot of bleach, there).  According to the MSDS, sodium hydroxide/soda ash are the neutralizing agents.  Unfortunately, getting sufficient quantities for a large scale spill will take time. 

Up hill, up wind, and the rule of thumb (if your thumb covers the incident scene, you're far enough away) are the judicious choices.

Career fire departments can usually muster a good hazmat response.  Out here in the sticks, where we have to get people in from work, or out of bed, the response can take much longer.  Not many of our volunteer fire departments have a strong hazmat presence - we rely on the county team (also all volunteers) for the technical skills and ability.

[ericsp]

How do they neutralize clorine?  Or do they just let it disapate?

Gabe

My guess is that, if necessary, the initial response would probably be to knock the vapors down with a water fog spray.

http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/erg/g124.pdf

http://www.piona.com/ehs/msds/cl2-e.pdf

[ericsp]

I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.

Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA?

 The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat.

I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.

http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.asp

You're right in that the Pepcon operation was moved to Utah - not sure if Kerr-McGee's operation was moved (or is still in production). Looks like the Pepcon site is only a few blocks away from the Pioneer plant.

What impressed me was that Pioneer produces 150,000 tons of chlorine per year in Henderson - with a major leak at the plant and the wind blowing the right way, Lost Wages would have to worry about something much worse than a single RR tank car with chlorine. 

According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html

[edbenton]

Here is one I was in Propane leak on a tanker trailer involved in an accident tractor of same trailer leaking FUEL and on fire.  Blocking the Interstate and in the back up was a of nerve gas 3 loads back MINE I was not placarded move was being done covert to keep it safe.  Think the stuff from the movie The Rock and you will see why.  I was stuck no place to go in a decent sized area with enough gas on to kill everyone in the area the size of NYC and it took still took 30 mins for a fire dept to even get to the scene with the traffic jams on both sides of the highway.  Yes they may say we can get there in 5 mins or less in practice but put traffic jams in there way and it takes a HELL of a long time longer to get there.  I pulled more crap for the Goverment that would and could kill us than I care to think about.  We have stuff in our arsenals that would make even the worst Warlord sick.