CShaveRR wrote: I'm not sure, but tank cars for transportation of hazardous materials (or a subset thereof, such as pressurized gases) may be limited to a 263K gross rail load. I just had a look (on the computer) at the newest chlorine tank cars I could think of, and they have a 263K GRL and a capacity of around 17,350 gallons. I don't know at what pressure chlorine is transported by rail (the cars test at 500 psi, but it's probably less than that), but you're talking about a pretty big cloud of gas if one of these cars exhausts itself.There are supposed to be new standards for hazmat cars coming out, so we'll see cars less likely to be broken open by a routine accident such as might have resulted from a collision or derailment.
I'm not sure, but tank cars for transportation of hazardous materials (or a subset thereof, such as pressurized gases) may be limited to a 263K gross rail load. I just had a look (on the computer) at the newest chlorine tank cars I could think of, and they have a 263K GRL and a capacity of around 17,350 gallons. I don't know at what pressure chlorine is transported by rail (the cars test at 500 psi, but it's probably less than that), but you're talking about a pretty big cloud of gas if one of these cars exhausts itself.
There are supposed to be new standards for hazmat cars coming out, so we'll see cars less likely to be broken open by a routine accident such as might have resulted from a collision or derailment.
Not sure about the 263K limit, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Also, remember that gas under pressure won't necessarily stay close to the ground immediately. A lot of that will depend upon how the tank is ruptured. Chlorine will being to sink into hollows after it is released. Also, wind conditions and humidity will play a factor in the spread and direction of the cloud.
LC
Go to World War One and learn about how the troops dealt with the chlorine and mustard gas.
Let's just say that any population center downwind and "Lower" in ground level than the incident as expressed in MSL is dead. Then it will take time for the stuff to evaporate (I have another word, but cannot spell it and chose a close match) and as it does, it will inflict more dead and casulties.
If one ever wrecks in my area we would grab mask filters and hope to live long enough to escape the area. It really does not matter to us one way or another as we both are DNR's anyhow but life in a gassed out town filled with dead and dying with no infrastructure is no fun.
Well, with as much chlorine is used in today's society and the amounts that must be shipped all over, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more accidents and fatalities. Most municipalities that have a water treatment system uses chlorine and/or ammonia and you wouldn't want a tank of that breaking open either.
There is an ozone process, but that requires liquid oxygen transport....if you ever want to see a tanker turn to a pile of iron oxide in one quick flash, just spark one of them. Probably take several cars either side, the rails, ties, anything combustible (including iron) within several hundred feet.
edbenton wrote:The Clark County Hazmat team may be good however faced with Chlorine gas they are out of their league big time.
I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Krazykat112079 wrote: Well, with as much chlorine is used in today's society and the amounts that must be shipped all over, I'm surprised that we haven't seen more accidents and fatalities. Most municipalities that have a water treatment system uses chlorine and/or ammonia and you wouldn't want a tank of that breaking open either. There is an ozone process, but that requires liquid oxygen transport....if you ever want to see a tanker turn to a pile of iron oxide in one quick flash, just spark one of them. Probably take several cars either side, the rails, ties, anything combustible (including iron) within several hundred feet.
Some of that credit goes to some of our best drivers who haul the stuff without any problems.
Personally I would not put those loads on my 5th wheel. It is enough to have had that one load with 6000 gallons of acid in car boys sloshing back and forth trying to get out any way it could for a thousand miles. For a old milk tanker man like me I could not get rid of it fast enough.
edbenton wrote:Mustard gas is heavier than air Clorine gas is lighter than air and spreads very fast.
Molecular weight of air is a bit over 28 (mostly N2), molecular weight of Chlorine is about 71 - considerably heavier than air (also heavier than propane or butane).
ericsp wrote:I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA?
The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat.
erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA? The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat.
ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.
I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.
http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.asp
ericsp wrote: erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA? The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat. I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.asp
You're right in that the Pepcon operation was moved to Utah - not sure if Kerr-McGee's operation was moved (or is still in production). Looks like the Pepcon site is only a few blocks away from the Pioneer plant.
What impressed me was that Pioneer produces 150,000 tons of chlorine per year in Henderson - with a major leak at the plant and the wind blowing the right way, Lost Wages would have to worry about something much worse than a single RR tank car with chlorine.
edbenton wrote:Most of the Strip has built walkways over the RR tracks for people to walk to avoid the inconvience of being delayed by the trains. The Clark County Hazmat team may be good however faced with Chlorine gas they are out of their league big time. ..snip..
When was the last time you were in Vegas?
The UP parallels Las Vegas Boulevard (the Strip) about 2 blocks to the west, and is crossed by road bridges that have to go up and over. Sidewalk level on The Strip and ballast level on the railroad are very close to one another. (The pedestrian bridges cross Las Vegas Boulevard and a couple of major cross-streets, not the railroad.)
In addition to traveling hazmat (road and rail) the Clark County Hazmat Team has to be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of an accident involving any of the numerous aircraft using Nellis AFB and McCarran. There are also several local users/producers of toxic substances, most of which have more than a tank-car load on hand at any given time. Don't underestimate the training and expertise involved.
Just in passing, with the possible exception of two posters whose locations are not disclosed, I seem to be the only resident of Clark County who has responded to this subject...
Chuck
ericsp wrote:By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.
That's where they landed, huh?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
edbenton wrote:I do give Clark county props for having a good Hazmat team. However unless they are ready the second that car or tanker is busted open the time it takes to get there is going to be to long. Most Hazmat teams have a respone time of 45 mins in 45 mins that tanker will be empty in if it is a large enough hole. When I was a mechanic we had the emergancy shut off valve drop out of a acid taker that was loaded. 48K lbs of pure sulphric acid hit the gound in 10 mins out of a 1 inch hole without any air pressure. Now you rupture a pressure vessel that time goes down big time. By the time our local Hazmat team got to us 25 mins later all they could do was dilute it and start to counter it which it was already doing being it hit crushed limestone. The fact is we are lucky that nothing major has happened in one of our major cities yet involving a poison gas cloud from either a truck or a RR car. The drivers that haul it OTR and the RR's do everything they can to keep us safe however sooner or later Mr. Murphy will get in there and screw us over.
Most Haz-Mat teams have a response time of 45 minutes??? What is the basis for that fact?? I can assure you, without fear of contradiction, that where I come from that is just simply not the case.... In all of my years of experience, from watching the City of Chicago, to suburban fire departments, Haz-Mat responses are on the order of 15 minutes or less....... The fire department is on the scene in 4-6 minutes, standard response time. Count on it. I was a dispatcher for years, I grew up around the fire service, I was a firefighter myself. "Most haz-mat" teams taking 45 minutes??? Not true, sir, simply not true. In the Chicago area, and the city of Chicago itself, Haz-Mat training is constant, and continually being upgraded. Chicago has a dedicated Haz-Mat response team, that is on duty 24/7, and can go anyhwere in the city and get there in far less than 45 minutes. On any given shift in any firehouse around here, in the suburbs you will have one or more Haz-Mat techs on duty.
A full fledged Haz-Mat box alarm (bringing in mutual aid) will get additional techs, vehicles, and equipment to the scene in 15 minutes or less. All the while the first in companies are working on identification, containment, and evacuation. I have NEVER seen it take less than that. Unless it is in the middle of a rural area, I have yet to see a haz-mat response take that long. I have witnessed potentially dangerous situations brought under control by the rapid actions of the Haz-Mat teams.
And, if the reported spill or leak is something as dangerous as chlorine, the response will be vigorous, and fast. In fact, as a dispatcher, if we got a call of a leak or spill of a highly dangerous substance such as chlorine, we had the authority to automatically make it a Haz-Mat box. On doing that, it brought several towns, all within 5 miles with their techs and equipment to the scene. We coordinated closely with the police to execute evacuation plans, and such. The suburbs are laced with the railroad tracks, Haz-Mat is very much on the minds of every fire chief, shift commander, and firefighter around here.
erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: I would not be sure about that. They have the Pioneer Chlor-Alkali plant in Henderson, so a chlorine release is probably something they train for regularly. I would think that they can probably deal with a chlorine release as well as any haz-mat response teams.Is that by any chance related to the plant producing Ammonium Perchlorate for NASA? The video of that plant blowing up was very impressive - very much like the films of nuke tests. I would also think that Clark County has some experience in handling Hazmat. I do not think they are related. By the way, it seems like when they rebuilt, they did so in Utah.http://www.piona.com/locations/henderson.aspYou're right in that the Pepcon operation was moved to Utah - not sure if Kerr-McGee's operation was moved (or is still in production). Looks like the Pepcon site is only a few blocks away from the Pioneer plant.What impressed me was that Pioneer produces 150,000 tons of chlorine per year in Henderson - with a major leak at the plant and the wind blowing the right way, Lost Wages would have to worry about something much worse than a single RR tank car with chlorine.
According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html
gabe wrote:How do they neutralize clorine? Or do they just let it disapate?Gabe
My guess is that, if necessary, the initial response would probably be to knock the vapors down with a water fog spray.
http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/erg/g124.pdf
http://www.piona.com/ehs/msds/cl2-e.pdf
Water fog, but the runoff must be diked (you're creating a lot of bleach, there). According to the MSDS, sodium hydroxide/soda ash are the neutralizing agents. Unfortunately, getting sufficient quantities for a large scale spill will take time.
Up hill, up wind, and the rule of thumb (if your thumb covers the incident scene, you're far enough away) are the judicious choices.
Career fire departments can usually muster a good hazmat response. Out here in the sticks, where we have to get people in from work, or out of bed, the response can take much longer. Not many of our volunteer fire departments have a strong hazmat presence - we rely on the county team (also all volunteers) for the technical skills and ability.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 wrote:Water fog, but the runoff must be diked (you're creating a lot of bleach, there). According to the MSDS, sodium hydroxide/soda ash are the neutralizing agents. Unfortunately, getting sufficient quantities for a large scale spill will take time.
IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid - and NaOH makes for good neutralizing agent (yet another name for the stuff is soda lye). Dealing with either hydrocholic acid or bleach is a lot easier than chlorine gas.
By the way, does anyone remember the ca 1978 derailment in the southeast (Florida?) involving chlorine tank cars? My recollection was that it was caused by sabotage and that 6 to 10 people died from the chlorine fumes (most on a nearby roadway). I also remember reading about efforts in the mid-60's to raise a barge with chlroine tanks - assumed it went well.
ericsp wrote:According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html
Thanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate.
erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.htmlThanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate.
ericsp wrote: According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.html
That be NASA. Right?
Safety Valve wrote: erikem wrote: ericsp wrote: According to this article, Kerr-McGee is gone. Also, Pioneer did have a chlorine leak.http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/May-03-Sun-1998/news/7426853.htmlThanks for the link - the propellant market has changed since the Pepcon incident - since Alliant Techsystems (ATK????) bought Thiokol, there's basically only one large customer for ammonium perchlorate. That be NASA. Right?
No, it would be the company that makes the boosters, Alliant Techsystems.
erikem wrote: IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid
IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid
Hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid) is dissolved hydrogen chloride (HCl) in a solution of water (H2O). It is usually produced in solutions up to industrial grade (38% HCl, 62 % water).
Chlorine plus water is chlorinated water, found in thin solutions in swimming pools and many drinking water supplies.
Poppa_Zit wrote: erikem wrote: IIRC, Chlorine plus water will produce hydrochloric acid Hydrochloric acid (or muriatic acid) is dissolved hydrogen chloride (HCl) in a solution of water (H2O). It is usually produced in solutions up to industrial grade (38% HCl, 62 % water).Chlorine plus water is chlorinated water, found in thin solutions in swimming pools and many drinking water supplies.
Chlorine will react with water to form HCl, among other things. See Section 10 of the linked MSDS.
Chlorine added to water will undergo the following reaction:
H20 + 2Cl -> 2HCl + O
The HCl is, of course, hydrochloric acid. The O is nascent or monatomic oxygen. O soon recombines into O2 or molecular oxygen, but if it comes into contact with other materials first, which is quite likely, it oxidizes them much more rapidly than normal molecular oxygen will. That is how chlorinated water is made clean: the monatomic oxygen released by the production of HCl eats up any organic contaminants, including bacteria and viruses. The HCl helps in this cleansing, but the main action is oxidation.
Obviuosly, a lot of chlorine in contact with water will produce a stronger acid concentration.
Jack
Not really resurrecting a dead horse here...
Local TV news just ran a short piece on the runaway. A year after the fact, they finally released the 911 call tape. Sounds like, "Chicken Little Meets The Keystone Kops!"
The gooney who made the call (Male local citizen) didn't give anything like a coherent description of what was going on, describing the single car as, "A train without a locomotive," and then 'clarifying(?)' as, "There's only one of it." No direction, no speed (except, "Fast,") - reminded me why accident investigators hate having to interview civilian eyewitnesses. He didn't even identify the runaway as a tank car, nor was there any mention of the presence of placards...
For her part, the 911 op was just as confused. I don't think she had any idea of where the railroad is located. She definitely wasn't getting the idea that some kind of emergency response would be appropriate. I will grant that she was calmer and more professional, but she didn't have any idea of what questions to ask.
The rest of it was some technologically challenged 'investigative reporter,' fuming about what HE saw as non-response on UP's part (not that he would have been privy to any response.)
Luckily for all concerned, they DIDN'T interview Harry Reid.
Chuck (Clark County resident)
Limitedclear wrote: Las Vegas officials peeved at runaway railcar http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=37605LAS VEGAS - The mayor never wants to be blindsided by a runaway car again, the KLAS Web site reports. Reaction and the fallout from Wednesday's runaway railcar containing the deadly chemical chlorine has come from just about everywhere. From changes the city of Las Vegas will make, to how the Clark County HAZMAT team could respond to a chlorine leak. The railcar coasted freely from south of Blue Diamond to North Las Vegas. The scariest thing for HAZMAT experts who looked at this incident is how close the railcar came to a lot of people. The track took it right behind the Mirage, Treasure Island, Fashion Show Mall, and Circus Circus. The runaway car went as fast as 55 miles-per-hour past the Clark County Government Center and downtown Las Vegas.
http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=37605
LAS VEGAS - The mayor never wants to be blindsided by a runaway car again, the KLAS Web site reports.
Reaction and the fallout from Wednesday's runaway railcar containing the deadly chemical chlorine has come from just about everywhere. From changes the city of Las Vegas will make, to how the Clark County HAZMAT team could respond to a chlorine leak.
The railcar coasted freely from south of Blue Diamond to North Las Vegas. The scariest thing for HAZMAT experts who looked at this incident is how close the railcar came to a lot of people.
The track took it right behind the Mirage, Treasure Island, Fashion Show Mall, and Circus Circus. The runaway car went as fast as 55 miles-per-hour past the Clark County Government Center and downtown Las Vegas.
I remember this story.
I believe, as mayor of a city with the population of Las Vegas that I would be pretty upset too. This IS a big deal. It could easily have derailed and been struck by another train. Don't know what mainline speed is through town, but I imagine it's at least 55 mph. we're talking HUGE HAZMAT incident here. Luckily that didn't happen.
Clearly if there was a release incident as a result of that runaway tank car, the railroad would have a BIG problem on their hands and a lot of people would have to be evacuated real fast. Thinking about the logistics that must be involved makes my head spin so I think I can empathize with Mayor Goodman.
I can't imagine how many lawsuits would immediately follow; that makes my head spin too. One thing's for certain, the finger will be immediately pointed at the railroad. Who else, right?
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.