Regarding the Ranchero Ave. Overpass.
Just a bit more information: http://www.vvdailypress.com/articles/hesperia-29833-road-underpass.html
And more information: http://www.cityofhesperia.us/index.aspx?NID=844
A third bridge can be added at anytime BNSF, thinks it's needed. One of the problems with three tracks into Victorville is the Upper and Lower Narrows. Originally BNSF had plans to three track all the way to Needles, Ca. Don't count that idea as lost in the scuffle. On hold perhaps but should freight traffic pick up...if you get my drift.
My speculation, which is about as good as K.P.'s. I believe, eventually they will three track all the way to Daggett, Ca., and in a later building project continue on to Needles. There are places where sidings already contribute to the three tracking concept. Ie., Daggett to Barstow, Ca.
Keep those photos and your thoughts on the subject coming K.P. Your guess is as good as anybody else's.
Old Rick, taking notes.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
K.P., thank you for the great set of photos!
However, I have to question your reasoning w.r.t. the Ranchero Road bridge:
I meant to share these links when I first saw this particular thread.
Great links ... This photo from http://www.trainmaster.ch/ shows what looks like the tracks centered over the columns with room for a third.
Convulsions Central
K.P. is starting to think he needs to take a medical leave FROM the forum …and the Ranchero Road underpass …
It had been understood that the Ranchero Rd. underpass only had a two-track wide spanning. The official “Riverside Construction Company, Inc.” website, which K.P. could not find a physical address for, so he is assuming it is an earth based outfit and not from outer space (though K.P. has learned NOT to assume things), speaks of that bridge as a “bridge for the two BNSF tracks.” In hindsight, that is an interpretive phrase, NOT limiting the bridge to just two tracks. Top side visuals spoken of and posted here at the forum seem to indicate the bridging is indeed for three-tracks, though only two-tracks are presently laid over it.
So, we are back to square one, and Ranchero Road area could eventually have three-tracks eastward to who knows where!
Anybody know of a good place that K.P. can check himself into for recovery rehab?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
If you find some place, find out if they have group rates ..
K.P., I'm not really a Jimmy Buffett fan, but I suggest a Cheeseburger in Paradise or Margaritaville?
Kidding aside, I wish I would've posted those links sooner. I've had them bookmarked for at least a year.
Thank you, as always, for your excellent work!
K. P. HarrierConvulsions Central K.P. is starting to think he needs to take a medical leave FROM the forum …and the Ranchero Road underpass … ... Anybody know of a good place that K.P. can check himself into for recovery rehab?
...
Count me in. I want to go too. Maybe for anger management...heeheehee.
LOL
K. P. Harrier Update as of March 26, 2013 The New Signals, an Underpass, and Assessing Matters Part III (of I-VIII) At this point in the presentation, it might be good to consider the new, still under construction (North) Milliken Ave. Flyover in Ontario maybe 35 miles east of Los Angeles, a flyover on the Union Pacific Sunset Route. As seen in the last photo above, that structure has FOUR pillars, and the end product will be a two-track flyover! In contrast, the NEW Ranchero Ave. underpass in Hesperia has THREE such pillars, hence, the bridging ONLY HAS A TWO-TRACK WIDTH! Through logical deduction, then, since this is a new bridge, THE EAST SLOPE OF CAJON PASS WILL THUS NEVER HAVE THREE-TRACKS! The trackage by this Ranchero Ave underpass is on a moderate uphill grade between FROST to the east (right) and LUGO to the west (left). Continued in Part IV
The New Signals, an Underpass, and Assessing Matters
Part III (of I-VIII)
At this point in the presentation, it might be good to consider the new, still under construction (North) Milliken Ave. Flyover in Ontario maybe 35 miles east of Los Angeles, a flyover on the Union Pacific Sunset Route.
As seen in the last photo above, that structure has FOUR pillars, and the end product will be a two-track flyover!
In contrast, the NEW Ranchero Ave. underpass in Hesperia has THREE such pillars, hence, the bridging ONLY HAS A TWO-TRACK WIDTH!
Through logical deduction, then, since this is a new bridge, THE EAST SLOPE OF CAJON PASS WILL THUS NEVER HAVE THREE-TRACKS!
The trackage by this Ranchero Ave underpass is on a moderate uphill grade between FROST to the east (right) and LUGO to the west (left).
Continued in Part IV
- Paul North.
Big Money in Devore
The Devore, CA area was triple-tracked a number of years ago (but less than a decade). It has been known that Glen Helen Parkway (formerly Devore Rd.) was projected to have a grade separation built. K.P. was by there the late afternoon of Thursday, March 28, 2013. What was seen cause him to stop and take a few photos.
The land in the far background has been cleared. Previously, on the left (above photo), was a rural restaurant, and on the right possibly old houses.
So, the grade separation must by near. It is supposed to be an overpass, so temporary track relocations won’t be needed.
The SANBAG website lists the project as costing nearly $26 million.
LINK: Glen Helen Pkwy Technical Project Info
It is listed as having a completion date of June 2015. So, if that still holds, the start of the project theoretically should be soon. The fact that the nearby lands have been cleared substantiates that.
Very nearby, the almost a third of a billion dollar I-15 / I-215 interchange revamping is getting close too.
LINK: Diagram of I-15 / I-215 Project
Railfans will be interested to know Cajon Blvd. will be made a through road in that project.
The one thing I appreciate about K.P.'s presentations here is: He uses "Tell Tales" to deduce what is happening. Not always accurate as we've all been fooled into thinking one thing oddly enough to discover the railroad is thinking and doing something else. After looking at some of the pictures he has shared here I have to say I've agreed with most of his conclusions and he hasn't been to often wrong.
Now with the bridge pillar thing... well, anyone could make that mistake. BNSF has unofficially informed their staff that they will eventually three track all the way from the Summit, CA. to Barstow, CA. However, it isn't on the highest priority of things to do as other areas are needing track replacement or double tracked.
The key to all of this: Should the merchandise being shipped continue to come in from off shore, there will be a need to increase the number of trains to deliver said goods. The bottle neck starts in the L.A. Basin but is more pronounced between San Bernardino, CA. and Daggett,CA., just east of Barstow, Ca. Keeping in mind from Riverside eastbound to Daggett UP has trackage rights over the BNSF tracks.
One of the advantages to the west slope of Cajon Pass, is the BNSF and UP are joined at the hip with a crossover just before the Summit giving both railroads the use of a total of four tracks and two sidings to negotiate the steeper grades of the pass.
The downhill grade on the east side of Cajon Pass, Ie., Hesperia down to the Upper and Lower Narrows at Victorville, CA. Has been graded for a third track. Looking at the tell tales you can and will most likely conclude that BNSF, will eventually add a third track.
Also, old news perhaps but Metro at one time wanted to base commuter trains in Victorville to run between the High Desert and Los Angeles Communities.
Because, most of us don't have access to or are privy to the board room tables and decisions made at the administrative levels for the various railroads. We will have to put some things on hold. Take a wait and see attitude and stand by to see what happens next.
K.P. I do enjoy your reports and speculation as you read the tell tales. Keep your reports coming. They are appreciated by this participant. Adding, the only real time news we seem to be getting. Thanks!
KP;; Some pure speculation of the triple tracking Summit -- Barstow.
1. As you posted elsewhere UP is adding sidings / 2nd main track on the Tehachapi - Bakersfield route at the apparent behest of BNSF.
2. Could it be that BNSF expects a growth of traffic from the LA basin to the SAN JOAQUIN valley ?
3. If so that traffic could reduce the fluidity to unacceptable levels on the Summit - BARSTOW SEGMENT.
4. Maybe one of our posters can provide info on the BNSF BARSTOW --- SOUTH MOJAVE track as to how much traffic on that segment and if any major infrastructure improvements as well ??
Maybe a little in left field but ??
Of course if Perris - Oceanside was still in service ????
K.P. I hope you don't mind my jumping in here.
To answer Blue Streak's question about BNSF routing traffic into San Joaquin Valley. The hump yard in Barstow was located there for a purpose. To run all traffic destined to go eastbound or north bound to Barstow for Classification, then made up into trains and dispatched.
One of the interesting things about the mega mergers of BN & SF, UP & SP the now BNSF and UP both railroads gained specific trackage rights over each other's rails. Today UP can use the Barstow to Mojave tracks to move trains from the old UP, LA&SL lines over the former SP later traded to the AT&SF. In case I lost you. UP can now route trains between Barstow to Mojave, CA. Giving UP's westbound trains direct access over the Tehachapi Pass and into the Gateway to the San Joaquin Valley via Bakersfield, CA. Avoiding having to go all the way into Colton, Ca. and back out. Perfect for unit trains. Did I confuse you yet?
What I don't know about... is whether or not BNSF and UP came to any trackage agreements with regard to the old SP Colton Cut Off. If unknown to this author.... BNSF and UP did arrive at any trackage agreements with regard to BNSF running the Colton Cut Off, Westbound. They would need to build a BNSF to UP crossover to allow trains to move from the old AT&SF to the old SP somewhere (I presume) near Devore, CA. Difficult at best but not an impossible task to accomplish.
No speculation on a future third track from Summit, Ca. to Barstow, Ca. Give them time to get'r done. Unless the green minded ones decide...well....to put a halt to the project.
The Ranchero Rd. Underpass
Hesperia, CA
Part “A” (of A-C)
On the afternoon of Friday, March 29, 2013 K.P. returned to the Ranchero Rd. underpass area, and quickly found the general vicinity of where that “proof” of three tracks wide bridging photo was shot from. And, he took several photos himself …
It definitely looks like a three-track wide structure.
It especially has a three-track width look in this view:
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-C)
The new roadway is highway-like wide.
Looking west into the sun:
An eastward view … going into the distance:
As seen in the photos above, Ranchero Rd. will be a wide, artery-like passageway for a community that the railroad basically cuts in half with limited ability for the community to travel between those halves.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-C)
The master game plan is for Ranchero Rd. to be such a wide passageway all the way west to the I-15 Freeway, where presently an interchange is in the early stages of being constructed.
Presently, locals that desire a quicker access to I-15 southbound take Summit Valley Rd. that straddles the BNSF tracks for much of the way (upper left).
With a wide Ranchero Rd., however, traffic patterns undoubtedly will change.
A Google Maps puts matters into perspective. Key roads: I-15, Ranchero Rd, Highway 138, and Summit Valley Rd.
LINK: Overview Map
Most parts of Ranchero Rd. are now narrow, as the below road closed informational sign view shows. The narrow roadway is on the photo’s lower left.
Access to the area, especially to view three-tracking, has had its trials. But things will undoubted improve with the new Ranchero Rd. If nothing else, it will lighten the danger of Summit Valley Rd. Presently, the speed limit on some parts of the two-lane road is 30 M.P.H., but people doing 70 M.P.H. are often seen. Railroaders and railfans traversing it more or less put their lives in jeopardy! That will be lessened after the Ranchero Rd. overpass at I-15 and the underpass at the BNSF are open.
Now, if only more three-tracking of Cajon Pass was as certain.
Ranchero Rd. and Intermediates
North of the below underpass grading (photo bottom) …
… it is estimated that between 1000 and 1500 feet are now color light signals (that replaced old target signals at the same location).
…
While it is now established that the new underpass bridging at Ranchero Rd. is for three-tracks, the signals this side of Lugo all the way to Frost utilize masts (one on each side of the two-tracks) for the new signals and not cantilever bridging structures.
As has been pointed out herein, BNSF seems to be in NO hurry to lay a third track on the east slope of Cajon Pass, and the NEW mast signals seem to back that up.
Replies:
Paul D. North Jr. (3-28):
You are so right, Paul.
blue streak 1 (3-29):
No 2: Not being privy to inside corporate masterminds, it is difficult to say if BNSF is anticipating an influx or not of traffic from Mexico bound to traverse Tehachapi, but I doubt it. BNSF wanting additional tracks on Tehachapi is probably only to make their heavy Bay Area to Chicago traffic more fluid. (See also the reply to BarstowRick.)
No. 4: BNSF’s Mojave-Barstow trackage is a nifty speedway to say the least, and meets are swift. To go into a siding, trains are limited to 30 M.P.H. (because of the red over yellow signals), but can exit at 40 M.P.H. for anything more favorable than yellow!
BarstowRick (3-29):
In my opinion, BNSF desires to use UP’s line south of Mojave and to Cajon Pass via UP’s Palmdale Cutoff to Alray. That was the conclusion I reached many months ago because of the now 20-years old three-track signal bridge at an intermediates location for Mains 1 and 2.
K.P. sees no other rational explanation for such an old bridge among …
… a bunch of two-track new one!
Take care all,
K.P.
If I remember correctly (Which is a challenge at times), That 3-Track bridge came out of Barstow when they did some track work there. Not sure if it was a surplus reuse or part of a bigger master plan.
When they did the work at Summit adding the third main (Then a siding) to Martinez, a BNSF employee told me that they had extending the culverts to support a third track all the way to Main St. in Hesperia. Although the signals do not show it, I would bet they could be easily extended to match the single support three track versions that are down at Cajon. I think this just applies to the ones at Lugo, but the other intermediates would need replacing.
Of course all this happened before "BB" (Before Buffet)
Robert
Just a word of caution from a member of the choir. To look at or use the signals as a tell tale for what's going to happen next may be misleading. Signals are usually the last thing that goes in before the track is opened for traffic. Santa Fe, UP, SP, and now BNSF & UP all have used temporary signals to allow for the safe movement of traffic. To be used and maintained until the project is complete.
Barstow has been known for stock piling bridge parts for further projects. Not surprised to hear mention of such here.
Oddly enough I've arrived at the same conclusions you have by reading the all to familiar tell tales. So, we are on the same page. Just don't be to surprised when it doesn't quite go the way you think it will. Those boys and girls in the railroad engineering departments have ways of sabotaging our best guesses.
From the side door Pullman: KP you mentioned a signal bridge and referred to it as old, that's a relatively new signal bridge. The old ATSF signal bridges were black with heavy metal plate construction. The one pictured is pipe in construction. That be new! Picture taken at the Summit Crossovers before the 3rd main had arrived...right?
Looking forward to more of KP's and Rad's aka Robert, fine input here. Keep it coming and if you don't mind I will throw in my two cents in from time to time.
The Freeway Walling at the Far Western Foot of Cajon Pass
Part I (of I-II)
On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 K.P. had opportunity to photograph the new, pronounced I-215 / BNSF walling north of Baseline Rd. in San Bernardino, CA.
Above, the under construction 16th Street bridge over the BNSF and I-215 Freeway is seen. When it opens, tt will give a view of the walling never before seen.
An overview of all the present temporary Interstate 215 (I-215) / State Route 259 (S.R. 259) Freeways junction lanes with the BNSF on the upper left:
A combination of I-215 and S.R. 259 southbound off ramps will be next to the tracks, with S.R. 259 lowering and junctioning into I-215 southbound (presently not concrete laid on the lower right).
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-II)
The BNSF walling and I-215 / S.R. 259 Baseline Rd. off ramps being watered:
A lot of dirt will have to be removed.(lower middle). Note the walling curves with the tracks (far right). The I-215 Freeway southbound lanes should be closer to the BNSF tracks north of the 16th Street bridge (piers upper right).
The BNSF tracks can be seen under the Baseline Rd. off ramp right next to Baseline Rd.
A closer view of the presently ungraded future southbound I-215 lanes:
Those unpaved future dug down lanes use to be at track level and right next to the triple-track mains..
The freeway construction project should be finished by the Fall of this year, 2013.
Update as of Sunday, May 12, 2013
Ranchero Rd.
On the east slope of Cajon Pass, in the southern part of Hesperia, the new Ranchero Rd. divided roadway is now paved under the new triple-track bridging.
The sun was low in the evening light, and shadowing was severe when a BNSF westbound happened by.
Is Cajon Pass a New “Ground Zero”?
Most of us that are old enough remember well Ground Zero of September 11, 2001 and what happened at the World Trade Center’s Twin Towers. K.P. perceives another Ground Zero brewing, but this one involves TWO railroads, labor, and Cajon Pass!
Very recently the Alray area of Cajon Pass was visited and some photos taken there for a planned upcoming ‘Ground Zero’ posting series. The above photo is a resultant view looking eastbound at Alray to where Tunnel 2 used to be. The planned series will look at what K.P. perceives as a major labor conflict brewing very peculiar to the rail routes passing through Cajon Pass.
By the nature of the BNSF right-of-way in that Alray area, an onsite inspection proved somewhat inconclusive about the location’s future, but one of two future physical plant possibilities (“possibilities”), one at Alray, the other a mile of two to the east, are likely to be involved in a potentially hostile management-labor environment.
Sometime in the relatively near future K.P.’s hope is to finish putting together the series on what he knows of the situation, and it then will be shared with the forum for its own analysis and opinion formation.
Triple-Tracking That Is NOT Triple-Tracking: Is It a New “Ground Zero” for Cajon Pass?
Part “A” (of A-F)
Union Pacific has “I-5 Corridor” trains between the Pacific Northwest and Southern California, i.e., Seattle, WA-Los Angeles, CA. BNSF has a similar, competing operation, though on a more circuitous, out of the way route.
Since 2008 K.P. has anticipated BNSF in Cajon Pass eventually putting in a long connection between UP’s Silverwood and BNSF’s Alray. Instrumental in forming that opinion was the 2008 erection of a relocated, now twenty-year old three-track signal bridge midway between those two mentioned points. The ground seems graded for a third-track.
Word has come through K.P.’s grapevine of contacts that UP has run a few BNSF trains for BNSF over the Palmdale Cutoff.
Both UP and BNSF trains go over Tehachapi …
… but at Mojave the BNSF heads east to Barstow, and in taking the long way around transfers to the Transcon at Jewell (turnout route on background left) …
… and eventually goes through Summit in Cajon Pass on its way to Los Angeles.
Part “B” (of A-F)
BNSF could save 40 miles if trains went via UP, passed Ansel …
… Palmdale Junction (left) …
… approached the northwest slope of Cajon Pass …
… then transferred to the BNSF track near Silverwood and go under that “old” signal bridge between Silverwood and Alray, and get back on the BNSF at Alray.
Part “C” (of A-F)
On Sunday, May 13, 2013 K.P. visited Alray, and below are four resultant normal to heavy telephoto photos. From left to right are Mains 1 and 2. The steeper Main 3 is nearby on a different route (out of view on the right).
In comparing the above four photos with the first photo in Part A, it is not clear if another track could fit through the Alray cuts. The above four views were where Tunnel 2 used to be.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-F)
One thing that pops out to an onsite Alray observer is that the ballast there is extremely high, maybe four feet!
The 2007-2008 altered right-of-way width of the grading is probably wide enough for three-tracks, but because the ballast is so high here, the illusion is that three tracks might not fit.
At the same general location, a westbound view towards I-15:
If a BNSF-UP connecting track did come this far from the Silverwood area, it would have to end near where the Tunnel 2 once was, because there is no grading for a third-track to the west. And, there is only an old two-track bridge over the public dirt road. Note the guard railing on the photo background middle-right.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-F)
So, what is the idea of a “Ground Zero”?
To satisfy monopoly concerns in the SP-UP merger of 1997, UP agreed to grant BNSF rights between Oakland, CA and Salt Lake City, UT, and Salt Lake City to Denver over the D&RGW Moffatt Tunnel route.
So, BNSF trains traverse the trackage through Moffatt Tunnel.
A more close-up view:
This very rocky and mountainous area around Moffatt Tunnel has greatly commercialized in the last 30 years.
It is K.P.’s understanding that such Oakland-Denver BNSF powered BNSF trains are crewed by UP trainmen and NOT BNSF’s own labor forces!
Most BNSF traffic from Northern California goes over Tehachapi to Barstow, and takes the Transcon to Chicago, and vice-versa. Thus, the limited, token BNSF traffic over Donner Pass and the Feather River Canyon, and through the Rocky’s, to save exorbitant staffing costs with little return, BNSF contracts with UP to provide crews! Apparently BNSF unionized trainmen see the wisdom in such an arrangement.
Continued in Part F
Part “F” (of A-F)
It is believed that that concept is what BNSF is hoping to do with visions of running over the UP between Mojave and Alray instead of their own 40 miles longer tracks. It has been reported to K.P. that at least TWO test trains have run, one to West Colton Yard on the UP, and one to San Bernardino. Below is a non-test reshown San Bernardino photo.
Without a present connection between Silverwood and Alray, it is unknown if a test train backed through a transition track or not, but it somehow changed railroads.
The big difference between starting a new route on the Central Corridor from scratch and Cajon Pass is that both railroads in Cajon Pass have long established labor patterns with many employees. It is understood BNSF employees are not very happy about a new connection in Cajon Pass that potentially could thin their ranks a bit.
Whether UP crews or BNSF crews will be manning a few north-south regular BNSF runs in the future is unknown at this time.
While the World Trade Center attack by terrorists over a decade ago is most synonymous with “Ground Zero,” Cajon Pass just might have its own labor “Ground Zero” for us to ponder and observe what happens …
Checking Out Hesperia
May 21, 2013
Part I (of I-IV)
During an assignment, K.P. had two hours of free time. Both the new Ranchero Rd. underpass and new color light signals by Main St. were focused on.
According to the City of Hesperia’s website, the end of June to mid-July is projected as the opening of the new Ranchero Rd. through roadway. View looks east.
Looking the other way (west), the Ranchero Ave. roadway and underpass is seen.
Part II (of I-IV)
The many trucks were a show in themselves, as they would come down, U-turn, and head back up.
It is unclear whether this new underpass will increase traffic on Summit Valley Rd. or not, but taking the back road along the tracks to Summit is already a harrowing experience.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-IV)
South of Ranchero Rd. is presently a collection of grading equipment, by the tracks that goes downgrade photo left to right. If it wasn’t for that building on the right, the house would be a perfect residence for some railbuff …
Adventurous railfans that fly in have a good view of the tracks from both the south of town airport and from the sky as few have had opportunity to see at Cajon Pass.
K.P. once had a friend that had a pilot’s license, and years ago he, while not landing at this Hesperia Airport, flew over Cajon Pass for a most memorable experience.
That friend also took K.P. to Catalina Island by plane. On the way back, the plane suddenly had mechanical problems, and for a while we thought we might have to crash land out in the ocean! We made it to land, and emergency landed at Meadowlark Airport by the ocean, and contacted a mutual friend in that area whom just happened to be getting ready to drive over to where we both lived at the time …
Finally, back at Ranchero Rd. again, a view of where a number of railroad photographers have taken photos from above the bridging (upper left). It is unknown if that ledge walkway will continue to be accessible or not.
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