Elgin, Joliet & Eastern- a couple of questions.

[DPD1]

Nice shot Jim, mind if I save it for the site?

As far as the rumors... All I can say is that it looks like there's about a 90% chance that *something* will probably be announced in a couple weeks or so. As far as the exact details, I think that's still up in the air. Unfortunately, the B&OCT scenario is proof that an arrangement like that is possible. Cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Dave
The Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Ry. Archive & Email List
http://www.ejearchive.com

EJ&E switcher #313 working the Mittal Steel factory in East Chicago in June:

 

[n012944]

Murph:

First of all, are you selling any lumber these days? 

Regarding the other lines in Chicago...the J, IHB (Harbor) and Belt Railway of Chicago (Belt) are somewhat similar in that their routes are all used for trackage rights by the class ones.

We have discussed the J's trackage.

The Harbor runs similar to J, except on the inside (closer to Chicago).  It is a major funnel of freight coming off of the NS other eastern railroads.  They have a major yard at Blue Island (hump) and a flat yard at Gibson (Hammond, In).  Gibson is used for auto racks.  Trains are received at Gibson and then switched into solid trains.  Typically, NS, CSX, and CN will bring in autorack cars which are then assembled into solid UP and BNSF outbound trains.  Dont know if the same happens Eastbound.

The Harbor runs north to ex Milwaukee Road mainline at Franklin Park.  Major interchange points includes Blue Island Tower, Argo (with BNSF ex SF mainline), BNSF (ex BN) at Lagrange, Proviso with UP and Franklin Park with CP. 

The Harbor is owned by CP and NS, possibly another road.  They, like the J are also a heavy industrial railroad, particularly the NW Indiana area with Mittal Steel.  Also Corn Products in Chicago is a big shipper.

 

More later,

ed

 

Don't forget about the B&OCT which is still used as by many class ones to get from the north side to the south side.  Athough the B&OCT no longer has any locomotives it still exists as a separate part of CSX.

[Poppa_Zit]

You know that debate about open access? One company owns the track, maintains it, dispatches it, etc. Then the railroad becomes a toll road for whoever wants to use it. That's what the "J" is now (my opinion). Does the "J" uses trackage rights? I'm not sureThe BNSF runs stack/coal trains from Eola to various points, the UP coal/auto (and lets not forget the ICE detour) trains from West Chicago both north and south on the "J" and the CN enters and exits at different points. The "J" also has plenty of its own traffic. My point... I can't see one class-one buying the entire "J" because at least two others would object. Besides, the only class-one that uses the "J" from one end to the other is the UP.

CC

Chris- What's up with the font on your post?  I can't read it.  It's small, and weird-like the lower lines on an eye doctor's eye chart.  Any idea?

Murph -- besides the usual font-size adjustment, you can adjust the setting for viewing all font sizes on these forums. Go to your "profiles" page and choose a different size.

[EJE818]

Clearing is quite a neat yard. A great view of it can be had from the Cicero Avenue bridge, which has sidewalks on both sides of it for safe viewing from public property. Other then the bridge, most of the yard is unaccessable for railfanning. EJ&E's main yard is Kirk Yard. Joliet Yard seems to have diminished in use the last couple of years as the old shop buildings (they were not owned by EJ&E but by a private passenger car repair company) have came down and the switch engines there have been getting a lot of time off. A lot of trains (usually taconite trains off the eastern sub) go through Joliet Yard without stopping. If you plan on visiting the EJ&E, they seem to be busier in the winter as taconite trains coming from the CN (DM&IR) and BNSF use the line, and EJ&E will sometimes lease power for these trains from other short lines or leasing companies, or in other cases just run the CN power through with EJ&E crews. Do not enter any of the EJ&E yards without permission if you do visit. EJ&E is very friendly until you trespass. A good view of Joliet Yard can be had from the Jackson Street bridge.. Kirk yard is pretty hard to get even close to without trespassing, which is kind of too bad since thats where the ex-DM&IR SDMs plus SD18 616, which still has a high hood work. Another good spot for the EJ&E is Pine Junction. Pine is one of the only places where you can see the SDMs. The only problem with Pine is that CSX is known for throwing people out of there even if you aren't on their property.

[vlmuke]

No what I am saying while in blue island there are a lot of crossovers in the yard to get where you need to go and when you stop and get out to line yourself thur several crossovers and walk back many times the local guys will flip one or more of your switches to get where you need to go and you have to wait on them then go back and reline yourself back to that track it kinda like a free for all it can get scary real quick

[Murphy Siding]

clearing is really kinda of neat to see I have had to wait on a cab for several hours and its cool to see cuts going both ways and if you doing any railfanning be careful as they have cameras everywhere that have really high resolution, blue island is kinda scary for rail crews as they will steal you line up and run right in front of you. you really need to go switch to switch if not by the time you walk back to your train and turn around someone will have stole you line up

Are you saying other trains will steal your spot in line to get in the yard?  Isn't that determined by the dispatcher?

[vlmuke]

clearing is really kinda of neat to see I have had to wait on a cab for several hours and its cool to see cuts going both ways and if you doing any railfanning be careful as they have cameras everywhere that have really high resolution, blue island is kinda scary for rail crews as they will steal you line up and run right in front of you. you really need to go switch to switch if not by the time you walk back to your train and turn around someone will have stole you line up

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Clearing is indeed a hump yard, in fact its the only bi-directional hump in the country.  It is quite common to see hump cuts being pushed in BOTH directions over the crest of the hump.  The whole-set up, including the 59th Street line, was designed with efficient movement of cars and equipment in mind when it was built in the 1900's.  There are balloon tracks running under the hump that were built to allow steam locomotives from transfer runs to be serviced and sent to the departure yards without having to use a turntable.

[EJE818]

Clearing Yard is alive and well, and is just as busy as ever, with BNSF, UP, CN, CP, CSX, NS, IC&E, WSOR, plus the BRC's own trains using it. I have been to Griffith before. Great place to go see the EJ&E. There is a nice museum next to the tracks that has 3 EJ&E cabooses (there seem to be quite a few EJ&E cabooses donated to various towns) plus Griffith tower. The neat thing about Griffith is not only do you see EJ&E trains, but also CN trains on the old GTW mainline. Another little known fact is that EJ&E steam engine 765 is on display in Gary across from town hall, and is said to be the last existing EJ&E steam engine. It was donated by EJ&E and USS to the town. It is too bad that it isn't in the nicest area, and a lot of its con trols have been vandalized or stolen. Dave, I agree with you it must be frustrating to the employees of EJ&E that they have dozens and dozens of merger rumors every year. I just can't see one railroad owning the EJ&E outright. BNSF and UP would object if CN tried to buy the EJ&E. I've heard these CN meger rumors for years, and nothing has happened, so I don't see it happening all of a sudden. I remember the day that they actually sent me a HO model of 703, a hat, and a letter thanking me for being interested in their railroad. I always hear people complain about how unfriendly the EJ&E is, but that isn't true The EJ&E is truely a unique and unusual railroad (and well worth a visit on any Chicago trip) that has been around for almost 110 years and if it is still around in 5-10 years, I would love to work for them!

Long live the EJ&E!

[KCSfan]

Murph:

First of all, are you selling any lumber these days? 

Surprizingly, yes.  Our area seems to be an oasis of growth and building.  We are told that we are one of the few bright spots 'round these parts.  Of late, we've been overrun by hungry salesmen from all over.

     You mention Belt's Blue Island hump yard in Chicago.  I recognize the name.  Is it an old Milwaukee Road yard?

 

No Murph the Milw's big yard in Chicago was the Bensenville Yard located on the city's north west side. The IHB Blue Island yard is on the south west side. The third belt road serving the metro area is the Belt Railway of Chicago whose big yard is in a community known as Clearing. This is also on the south west side but nearer in to the city's center than Blue Island. I don't recall if the BRC Clearing yard is a hump operation or not but someone will likely let us know in a following reply.

Mark

[ndbprr]

A really neat area on the J is Griffith, Indiana.  The J, GTW, PRR and several other roads crossed there making it the largest group of crossings in the country at one time.  even today it is massive.  I'll bet the locals didn;t get much sleep with all those diamonds there

[Murphy Siding]

Murph:

First of all, are you selling any lumber these days? 

Surprizingly, yes.  Our area seems to be an oasis of growth and building.  We are told that we are one of the few bright spots 'round these parts.  Of late, we've been overrun by hungry salesmen from all over.

     You mention Belt's Blue Island hump yard in Chicago.  I recognize the name.  Is it an old Milwaukee Road yard?

[EJE818]

CN did not buy the EJ&E and I haven't heard any plans of it. UP tried to buy out EJ&E a few years ago but they pulled out when they realized they would have to buy all of the railways transtar (at this time EJ&E, DM&IR, B&LE, Union RR, Birmingham Southern before the Great Lakes Transportation deal). There are at least 4 BNSF trains a day on the EJ&E. The western sun sees more run-throughs while the eastern sun sees more of EJ&E's own trains, but you do see a few run-throughs on the eastern sub and EJ&E's own trains on the western sub, especially from Joliet to Eola. On the western sub, you are better off staying around the Joliet area. You can pretty much go anywhere on the eastern sub and expect probably 20 or so trains a day. The Metra service, the STAR line, is still in the future. For now, the EJ&E lines, especially the western sub, continue to increase and traffic. The future of the EJ&E looks bright as hopefully more transfers will use the line in the future.

[MP173]

Murph:

First of all, are you selling any lumber these days? 

Regarding the other lines in Chicago...the J, IHB (Harbor) and Belt Railway of Chicago (Belt) are somewhat similar in that their routes are all used for trackage rights by the class ones.

We have discussed the J's trackage.

The Harbor runs similar to J, except on the inside (closer to Chicago).  It is a major funnel of freight coming off of the NS other eastern railroads.  They have a major yard at Blue Island (hump) and a flat yard at Gibson (Hammond, In).  Gibson is used for auto racks.  Trains are received at Gibson and then switched into solid trains.  Typically, NS, CSX, and CN will bring in autorack cars which are then assembled into solid UP and BNSF outbound trains.  Dont know if the same happens Eastbound.

The Harbor runs north to ex Milwaukee Road mainline at Franklin Park.  Major interchange points includes Blue Island Tower, Argo (with BNSF ex SF mainline), BNSF (ex BN) at Lagrange, Proviso with UP and Franklin Park with CP. 

The Harbor is owned by CP and NS, possibly another road.  They, like the J are also a heavy industrial railroad, particularly the NW Indiana area with Mittal Steel.  Also Corn Products in Chicago is a big shipper.

 

More later,

ed

[Chris30]

I don't know what happened with the font... As soon as I typed "open access" it got all messed up. Can you read me now? I don't know the answer to railroads other than the class one's using the "J". Going by the info at the EJE Archive site, I would say no. I not familar with the east end of "J" where there's a lot of industrial track. So, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some trackage/haulage rights agreements with small switching/industrial railroads in that area. Maybe DPD (Dave) has a better answer on this?

CC

[Krazykat112079]

You can select the text and copy it into word then mess around with fonts, etc.  All I did was hit quote and changed the font size.  It was originally at 8pt which makes for one heck of a time writting a 20 page lab report...or grading it.

[Murphy Siding]

     Nathaniel:  Thanks!  Ignorant question on my part-Is there a simple way, for me to blow that up, the way you did?  Also, is the fact that it shows up really small on my screen a setting on my computer, or on Chris' computer?  Thanks again.

 

     Chris:  Interesting thought there, on open access.  It sounds like the majority of the traffic on the J, is run by other railroads, using traffic rights.  Do the other small railroads in Chicago, whose names I can't quite remember-( Indianna Harbor Belt?),(Chicago Beltline?) operate in the same manor?

[Krazykat112079]

You know that debate about open access? One company owns the track, maintains it, dispatches it, etc. Then the railroad becomes a toll road for whoever wants to use it. That's what the "J" is now (my opinion). Does the "J" uses trackage rights? I'm not sureThe BNSF runs stack/coal trains from Eola to various points, the UP coal/auto (and lets not forget the ICE detour) trains from West Chicago both north and south on the "J" and the CN enters and exits at different points. The "J" also has plenty of its own traffic. My point... I can't see one class-one buying the entire "J" because at least two others would object. Besides, the only class-one that uses the "J" from one end to the other is the UP.

CC

There ya go, Murph.

[Murphy Siding]

You know that debate about open access? One company owns the track, maintains it, dispatches it, etc. Then the railroad becomes a toll road for whoever wants to use it. That's what the "J" is now (my opinion). Does the "J" uses trackage rights? I'm not sureThe BNSF runs stack/coal trains from Eola to various points, the UP coal/auto (and lets not forget the ICE detour) trains from West Chicago both north and south on the "J" and the CN enters and exits at different points. The "J" also has plenty of its own traffic. My point... I can't see one class-one buying the entire "J" because at least two others would object. Besides, the only class-one that uses the "J" from one end to the other is the UP.

CC

Chris- What's up with the font on your post?  I can't read it.  It's small, and weird-like the lower lines on an eye doctor's eye chart.  Any idea?

[Chris30]

You know that debate about open access? One company owns the track, maintains it, dispatches it, etc. Then the railroad becomes a toll road for whoever wants to use it. That's what the "J" is now (my opinion). Does the "J" uses trackage rights? I'm not sureThe BNSF runs stack/coal trains from Eola to various points, the UP coal/auto (and lets not forget the ICE detour) trains from West Chicago both north and south on the "J" and the CN enters and exits at different points. The "J" also has plenty of its own traffic. My point... I can't see one class-one buying the entire "J" because at least two others would object. Besides, the only class-one that uses the "J" from one end to the other is the UP.

CC

[Murphy Siding]

Then, in 2001, Blackstone decided to take their capital gains and bail
out. At this point, Transtar once again became a wholly-owned subsid-
iary of US Steel, which it remains to this day. Regards, Joe McSpadden

It sounds to me, like US Steel has a goldmine here.  Wouldn't it be darned near impossible for any one of the Class 1's to buy out the EJ&E?

[Anonymous]

EJ&E switcher #313 working the Mittal Steel factory in East Chicago in June:

 

 

 

[DPD1]

I just heard that CN just gobbled EJE up.

Gobbled up? Are you privy to some inside info? I assume not. If I had a dollar for every time a rumor went around that they were being taken over, I could buy an SD38-2. It kind of reminds me of Apple in the 90's... It's almost like some people secretly wish it would go down, just so they can be the one to say 'told you so'. The rumors have been going on for decades. One of these days, one of the rumors will be the one that's true. Maybe it will even be this one. But until then, it's just a rumor, nothing more. I can't imagine it must be fun working at a company that everybody constantly keeps saying is being bought a dozen times a year... I certainly know I wouldn't appreciate it.

Dave
The Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Ry. Archive & Email List
http://www.ejearchive.com

[joemcspadden]

Regarding the ownership, US Steel owned the "J" outright until 1988.
In that year, as Paul indicated, USS got together with the Blackstone
Group, a private venture capital firm, and formed Transtar to become
the sole shareholder of the railroad. Prior to that, USS had owned the
road since 1901.

Then, in 2001, Blackstone decided to take their capital gains and bail
out. At this point, Transtar once again became a wholly-owned subsid-
iary of US Steel, which it remains to this day. Of course, during the 13
years that Transtar was jointly-owned, it acquired several other
transportation operations, including some other railroads, some barge,
operations, etc. They are now all owned by US Steel.

Regards, Joe McSpadden

[TimChgo9]

I live near the "J" and I do hear alot of activity. I don't always get to see much, but when I am out and about, I have seen at least,(what appears to me anyway)  one BNSF move a day, the UP bringing in loaded coal trains, and hauling out empties, plus the usual EJ&E stuff. Weber Rd, goes over the "J" and the siding that is there is almost always occupied by something.  There is a branch line that paralells Route 53, north of the "J" it apparently serves the power plant at Romeo Rd, and the DesPlaines River. I see the UP and EJE units taking coal trains up the line, as well as hoppers full of rock that come from the quarry over there.  The rock hoppers are stored on a couple of storage tracks that are just south of the Route 7 bridge when they are not being used. I caught the following, EJE #661 taking a string of empty rock hoppers back up to the storage tracks.

 

 

I catch a movement at least once a week on this line, but this was the only time I had my camera with me.  Apparently the line traverses a "prairie preserve" that is administered by the county. Division St is the only access to the area. In the fall, the colors are pretty dramatic.  Anyway, just thought I would share that with you... 

[eolafan]

Lately BNSF seems to be sending and receiving quite a few trains to and from Logistics Park near Joliet, including at least one auto rack trains to and from Portland, OR per day (saw one on the J exiting to Eola yard yesterday down the connector track at Liberty Street in Aurora).

[MP173]

In addition to the mainline in Indiana (Gary to Griffith then on to Chicago Heights and Joliet), there are a couple of branch lines.  One line runs along the lakefront from Gary to Stateline, where coal trains are delivered.  The J may also serve Inland Steel...I am not sure as those security folks over at the mills are not friendly.  I have seen a J train unloading coal at Stateline (view from Indiana Toll Road).

Another line branch off of the mainline at Cavanaugh and winds thru East Chicago and terminates at Whiting Yard.  This is a pretty heavy duty branch line.  In fact there is CWR on the ground waiting to be installed.  The Whiting Yard serves the local steel mills and also the huge BP Amoco Whiting refinery, plus a few industries in EC.  There is a local based at Whiting and a "road train" runs from Kirk to Whiting.  This week I twice saw trains tied down at Cavanaugh waiting to get on the main, both trains were 50 - 75 cars in length.  This line thru EC is very interesting as it passes a metal recycling business, serves a couple more industries before heading north and crossing the IHB and CSX at Calumet Tower.  Towers are in use at both Calumet and Grassilli. 

I do know there is a branchline which runs from Joliet out towards Mokena, thru the "chemical valley", which has quite a bit of business.  Not sure about any operations or traffic volumes on that line.

That is about all I know about the J.  It is a very interesting operation, a mix of mainline, industrial, and branch. 

It would be interesting to place a value on the J...the real estate (railroad) value alone for the Waukegan to Gary (90 miles) would place it at $100million based on costs to build a railroad at $1million/mile, which is probably pretty low these days.  With the online business (USX, generating stations, BP Amoco, etc), one could easily place a value approaching $250million when real estate (Joliet and Gary yards), railroad, and enterprise are all factored in.  Comments?

ed

[MP173]

Murph:

I am not an expert on the J, but do see it and have it tuned on my scanner.  I will pass on a little knowledge and hopefully others will correct me or add to my info.

As previously state, the J is the outer belt with a route which is about encircles Chicago about  30-40 miles from downtown.  There are several branchlines in addition to the mainline.  The mainline is pretty much a heavy duty railroad with some CTC, but mainly ABS and warrents.  With it's location, it is obviously important as a "toll road" from carrier to carrier, or even from BNSF to BNSF (Eola to Joliet - Logistics Park).

Some moves on the J include (not all moves, but at least a few):

1.  CN uses Leithton to Munger for moves from the old WC to access the ex IC Iowa line.  This allows them to run trains from say Fond du Lac to Hawthorne, Markham, or perhaps Glenn Yards in Chicago.  Also, there is a train 357 which runs from Battle Creek to Western Canada using this route.  CN uses a stretch from Griffith, In to Mattson, Il to connect the old GTW with the IC line south.  This stretch is used by a number of trains daily, including manifest trains 396, 397, 398, 399 plus several auto rack trains and coal trains off of the UP.  I would guess that CN sends 10 trains daily over this stretch.

2.  UP sends coal trains off of it's CNW track at West Chicago both north and south.  I believe they send an autorack train to CN via West Chicago to Griffith.  Perhaps more trains

3.  BNSF sends coal trains from Eola both north and south.  They also send a train from Eola to Joliet where it jumps on the former ATSF mainline to Logistics Park, south of Joliet. 

The J generates and terminates a lot of freight.  Again, all my info is subject to correction, but...

1.  EJE is the house band for USX, Gary Works.  I believe all coal/coke trains are interchanged to them for delivery.   The NS delivers a couple of coal/coke trains to them at Van Loon....883/884/885/886.  These run very frequently, often daily.  NS also runs a daily turn from Ft Wayne to Van Loon for daily steel loads (and empties).  In fact, that train 323, is passing thru Valpo now.  They typically pickup 20 -70 coil cars daily, with empties coming back.

Take a look at a Google or your favorite satellite view of Gary and Kirk Yard.  It is an operational hump yard.  Pretty cool view from the Indiana Toll road.

2.  EJE seems to serve just about every generating station in the Chicago area.  I dont know who owns them, but at one time these were Commonwealth Edison.  Trains run to Plaines (south of Joliet), Waukegan, State Line, and perhaps a couple more.  In addition, UP delivers a NIPSCO train to the J at Gary which is then interchanged with the South Shore at Gary...just off of the Indiana Toll Road.  Makes an interesting couple of miles thru Gary.

More to follow.

 

ed

[coborn35]

I just heard that CN just gobbled EJE up.

[Murphy Siding]

     If I'm getting this right, EJ&E functions mostly as a connecting route between the Class 1's?  Or, does it also originate ans terminate a lot of traffi on it's route as well?