FJ and G wrote: 1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.
1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.
BNSF. Ex-Great Northern trackage.
Used to be the track that connected Great Northerns Union Freight Yard at Saint Anthony with the Depot in Minneapolis - crossing the river a little upstream on the famous Stone Arch Bridge. With a couple of sidings on the east bank (north side) of the river.
The Stone Arch Bridge hasn't carried RR traffic since 1978 and is now a foot/bike path across the river.
As far as I can tell from google earth, the tracks now form a small storage yard with a few tracks, where the BNSF apparently was storing some covered hoppers and a few tank cars.
Google earth image:
FJ and G wrote: 2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars.
2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars.
Both covered hoppers and tank cars under the bridge. Pictures show at least one, maybe two covered hoppers with damage from falling bridge, and a tank car (closer to the bridge supports) that seems reasonably undamaged.
FJ and G wrote: 3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
Can't help you with any stupification you may feel. There is no sign of a terrorist attack. No sign of car bombs, no particular reason why terrorists should attack one of thousands of interstate highway bridges, no one has claimed responsibility for a terrorist attack.
It is a reasonable null hypothesis that it was not a terrorist attack. Further investigation will probably show what the cause of the bridge collapse.
Stein
FJ and G wrote: 1. Which railroad is that? MapQuest only lists BNSF several blocks away.2. CNN called the hopper cars tank cars. 3. Almost immediately, Homeland Security said it wasn't a terrorist attack. With the cause still unknown, how can they say that????? I just don't believe the government anymore (not that I think it was an attack, just how can they speculate like that when no one knows the cause). I'm stupified.
HC did not say that it was not a terrorist attack. They basically said they have no indication that it was a terrorist attack. They cannot rule out sabotage until they get into the structural elements under the decking in the river.
jeaton wrote: It will probably take some time to get the answers, but the forensic structural engineer types are really very good at figuring out just how failures occur. I am thinking about the collapse of the walkway over the lobby in the Kansas City hotel, and of course, the World Trade Center Towers.
It will probably take some time to get the answers, but the forensic structural engineer types are really very good at figuring out just how failures occur. I am thinking about the collapse of the walkway over the lobby in the Kansas City hotel, and of course, the World Trade Center Towers.
Based on a report from 2001 MNDOT declared "poor fatigue details" on the main truss. I would put money down on fatigue being the cause of the collapse. Fatigue faliure is most often catastrophic in nature, which would explain the sudden and rapid nature of the collapse.
While it is true that there are factors of saftey built into structures, accurately predicting loading patterns 40 years in the future can be hit or miss. The construction could have contributed by altering the resonance of the structure, but that isn't too likely. The damage would have been there for years in the form of microcracking, which is detectable, but usually after 90% of the fatigue life is over.
In my opinion, MNDOT really dropped the ball in 2001, but the PE on the original construction will probably take the heat. Hopefully, he will be long retired. I am praying that there is no more loss of life.
Who owns the bridge?
Why was it not replaced last year?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I saw one of the latest abc news footage earlier and they had a flew around the whole site and mentioned about the trains as they flew pass and I thought I saw a NS single unit at the front just missed out been crushed because it was almost right underneath the partially collapsed section and the crushed hoppers was just a few cars behind it. IT was amazing that the chassis is still standing holding up tons of concrete and steel despite the hopper body been crushed beyond recognistion.
The Washington Post reported this morning that a train had been passing beneath the roadway at the time it fell, hitting a cars carrying a chemical (unidentified) and polystyrene beads and that the fire chief said was not particularly hazardous.
They did mention this morning on CNN that the last two summers had been hotter than average (they have to try and tie it to global warming) and that it may have contributed to the collapse. They also mentioned in other reports that the bridge had gotten a 50 out of 120 on the last structural inspection, but that it did not indicate the bridge was dangerous. They were also acting all amazed that people who were not too seriously hurt were actually evacuating themselves rather than waiting for someone to come save them.
There have been annual reports in the news about the crumbling infrastructure of the US, including bridges, water and sewer pipe, etc. They also constantly talk about how what is in place is handling way more traffic and use then it was ever designed for.
It might actually be more amazing that this type of event does not happen more often.
Hey Dewey,
Thanks for the post..nice to see someone has a good head on their shoulders,and that some people "hopefully" would add heat to the cause of this tragic accident!!!!As for the rail cars....plastic pellets in the covered hoppers,and the tank car..its owned by MCP-Minnesota Corn Processers.Looking at the length of it,it could have been loaded with ethanol at one time,or corn syrup,your guess is good as mine.
>"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!! After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.
Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse?
Theres video now, from AOL
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/divers-search-for-bodies-after-collapse/20070801194509990001
Sad, they've been telling us for years that we need major investment in our intrastructure, but our leaders prefer burning billions on anything but...unless that bridge was in alaska
Have fun with your trains
Bucyrus wrote:There will be calls for spending over one trillion dollars to fix it.
In some cases, a repeat of calls.....
IIRC, the bridge was described as a box truss structure. The word truss says it all. One member fails, especially those under tension, the whole shebang fails. Given the reports of fatigue and cracking, I'd say that's where the culprit will be found.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
What a random tragety. Such a shame. When I heard of this event, I gave every member of my family an extra hug before bed. You just never know what can happen when you leave the house. My hopes and prayers go out to those who were involved.
dalien wrote: >"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!! After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse?
Gee,if you think I'm wrong,then maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS,on the History Channel,and drive a 80,000 pound rig,hauling a 96,000 pound load to a diamond mine,traveling only 15 miles per hour, on 38 inches of ice!!!!! Hmmmm...think the weather conditions wont have an effect on that?
FJ and G wrote:I heard on CNN about an hour ago that an average of one bridge collapses each week in the US. I wasn't aware of this. I thought these structures are made to last forever. How come the Romans could make stuff last and we can't?
Money. Government Indifference and Fumbling. It took 30 years to get 6 seperate entitys to come up with a plan to replace the I-495 Woodwrow Wilson Bridge before it too falls into the River south of DC.
Well, I buried family in Arlington some years ago and happily report that a brand new replacement is just about done or nearly so. The old one is going to be scrapped and sent to the sea for reef work or something. And good riddiance to that worn out old bridge.
I gotta tell ya, there are many bridges in the USA that I dont feel good driving onto with a 40 ton vehicle. Some of these were built "Just good enough" and future problems left to the grand children who will be the Government officials someday.
cnwfan2 wrote: dalien wrote: >"HEAT" may be the culprit for this collapse?!!!!!!!!! After all, Minneapolis has had a week, if not more, of excesssive 90 degree temperatures in the city.Maybe next you will blame "Global Warming" for the collapse? Gee,if you think I'm wrong,then maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS,on the History Channel,and drive a 80,000 pound rig,hauling a 96,000 pound load to a diamond mine,traveling only 15 miles per hour, on 38 inches of ice!!!!! Hmmmm...think the weather conditions wont have an effect on that?
Actually the ice is not a constant thickness. There is a risk of a fall through. I have been all over that show since it started and love it. Especially that Hugh, he is a Trucker I understand very well. I wont go onto that Ice, oh no, not me, done enough of that climbing out of Ft Bridger. Actually a little too much.
It aint the loud creaking, groaning Lake Ice that youre driving on... it's the super sheer, thin slipperyiest sheet barely perceptaible to the eye that brings down the mightest truck, usually on a steep hill. I laugh at the big ice, but cower when the thin stuff is around.
Not everyone gets the history channel.
This is my last post about the bridge problem.
My fear is simple. The media will carry this story and Jam it down our throats daily for 6 months to a year. First the incident, then the investigation, then the blame game and followed by every individual anywhere near that bridge on that day. UGH.
Let's move on shall we?
One other thing, certain hospitals in my area should grease and maintain those elevators from time to time. Those things creak along good to the last drop. I dont want to be on it when it does.
Especially when the owners are pouring billions to build new facilities next door.
tree68 wrote: IIRC, the bridge was described as a box truss structure. The word truss says it all. One member fails, especially those under tension, the whole shebang fails. Given the reports of fatigue and cracking, I'd say that's where the culprit will be found.
I think that is an excellent observation. I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers. It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape. Then adjoining decks on each side went down. If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began. The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.
I heard an interview with someone who said he knew one of the construction workers. That person told him that there was appprehension and speculation all day amoung many of the construction workers about whether the bridge was going to collapse. He said they all felt that the bridge was vibrating in a very unusual and excessive manner all day, and it concerned them enough to discuss it with each other.
That would have been a good time to go below and eyeball the bottom chords to make sure there was not a one-foot gap where one of them had already parted.
FJ and G wrote:I'm not sure what you mean about wire story. Is there a link or something to get there?
That's the Newswire at Trains.com. (Trains magazine subscription required)
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
>...maybe YOU should watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS...
I do watch it. But even better, I know a real Ice Road Trucker and listen to his stories with amazement. Now long retired, as one of the original Ice Road Truckers he helped haul the Dew Line equipment north over uncharted lakes. But I never heard him blame "Global Warming" for anything. That fantasy had not yet been invented.
Any other irrelevant comments?
Link please.
Yes, I'm a subscriber but am unfamiliar with this newswire and do not find it referenced on the front page. Tnx.
vsmith wrote: Theres video now, from AOLhttp://news.aol.com/story/_a/divers-search-for-bodies-after-collapse/20070801194509990001Sad, they've been telling us for years that we need major investment in our intrastructure, but our leaders prefer burning billions on anything but...unless that bridge was in alaska
Seems like that security video might give the investigators some clues on where to start looking.
The Federal Highway Administration had the 35W bridge on its deficient list. It should be noted that a bridge can make that list and still be structurally sound. No doubt the details of the deficiencies will be forthcoming.
Bucyrus wrote: I think that is an excellent observation. I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers. It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape. Then adjoining decks on each side went down. If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began. The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.
I suggest watching CNN's security video of the bridge going down. It appears as if the big truss dropped straight down, as if the piers holding it up had been pulled out from under it. That's why I think the first failure occurred off to the right of the camera's view on that approach.
blhanel wrote: Bucyrus wrote: I think that is an excellent observation. I have not seen an absolutely definitive diagram of the collapse, but what I have seen suggests that the first break was right in the center of the big truss that allows the river to be spanned without any piers. It broke in the center, and both halves tilted downward into a "V" shape. Then adjoining decks on each side went down. If the center span truss broke in the middle, the bottom chords would have parted in tension as the break began. The box truss design does seem a bit like have all your eggs in one basket.I suggest watching CNN's security video of the bridge going down. It appears as if the big truss dropped straight down, as if the piers holding it up had been pulled out from under it. That's why I think the first failure occurred off to the right of the camera's view on that approach.
I think you are correct that the failure began out of the video frame to the right. I think that would be where the center of the span was. But I really cannot say that I am certain how it all came down from seeing the video or the computer model. There have been press conferences all afternoon with a ton of engineering and inspection information being discussed in tremendous detail by engineers and state officials. I would not have expected such forthright addressing of the public's question about the cause at this early point in the investigation.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.