UP Turbine train question

[Modelcar]

........AntiGates: Those are ugly brutes aren't they....You know it's probably not possible for me to put my finger on which one we did see so many years ago but believe it wasn't this model {ALCO}. The grill worlk and angle at the top of the body along the side seems to be a feature that stands out in my memory, but we all know time sometimes plays tricks on our remembering certain items....I really do believe I did get to see a Gas Turbine or a Diesel Hydraulic unit of some sort but guess that will have to be as far as I can ID it....On a parallel note: I once had an opportunity to witness one of Chrysler's turbine cars of the late 60's.....{Believe there were 50 of them...}, and I and a friend were about to get a ride in it and the person that had the vehicle at the time..{certain people had them for limited time}, had to tend to something in his business}, and all we got to do was sit in it and check it out that way...The engine WAS running and I remember looking at the tach and it was idiling at 18,000 rpm....The overall car reminded me of a 4-passenger Thunderbird of the era, only somewhat smaller.....It was a thrill to see and hear but boy....just missed out in riding in it....Location: Somerset, Pa....and it was being cared for at the time by a Lumber Mill owner....

[kenneo]

Diesel Hydrolics --- SP and DRGW split original order for 6 from Krauss-Mauffi. Both roads thought that they would be the cats meow on stiff mountian grades. Wrong.

The DRGW quickly decided that the DH was not the wave of the future and sent their 3 units to the SP. Hardly had they gotten on the property, than the SP put them into helper service and on their first run up the hill out of Roseville, one of the units caught fire from overheated hydrolic transmission oil and promptly destroyed itself.

The SP also ordered the "hood" variety and the three ALCO C643H's. Those units (ALCO's) rode so hard that crews started filing injury claims!

DH's and steam locomotives shared the trait of being "constant torque" machines in that they produced nearly the same torque at starting as they did at full speed. This made them very sutiable for high speed service, and when used in that service were fantastic performers. There were several reasons why they were not continued, but most can be called "unfamilure technology". Cost of parts also played a part.

We had several assigned to Eugene for a while and the Division used them on the Brooklyn-Eugene pool with one K-M and an F7 A unit paired back-to-back. The F7 would be able to start the train which the K-M could not do. But once the F7 had even only just 1/2 MPH the K-M could hold its feet and the train took off like a rocket. Quite a sight! At 1 HP/T they could move a train along at 60 MPH which would take diesel electrics 5 or 6 HP/T.

The SP was looking for miracle workers. Properly used, these units were great, but they were not miracle workers.

[TrainFreak409]

I love the Krauss Maffeis, too bad they weren't exactly successful over here in the States. I've been trying to the find the model Rivarossi made of the ML-4000 cab unit. I know this should really be in the Model Railroader forum, but I wish someone would reproduce that model, and make a hood unit as well.

[Paul Milenkovic]

This business about the Diesel hydraulics kind of makes sense. No transmission is 100 percent efficient and they all have to dissipate heat, and if you lug them down you stand a chance of burning them up. Even electric drive has a "short-time rating" although I hear that the AC traction motors are more rugged. But I suppose in an AC drive if the traction motor is no longer the problem, you probably have to worry about dissipating heat from the inverter electronics so as to not burn up the drive.

Also, I was shopping for a lawn-cutting tractor the other day, and it seems hydrostatic drives have dominated the market -- last time our family bought such equipment hydrostatics were considered pretty exotic. One of the thing I have seen in all of the catalog pictures for these tractors as they show the hydrostatic transaxle (the pump and motor and gears and everything are all packaged in one compact unit that goes between the back tires) I see this cooling fan -- kind of like a fan on a CPU chip in your home computer. I guess that thing needs proper cooling like everything else.

I guess what I wonder about with the KM's is didn't the manufacturer ask the railroad what they were going to use them for? Didn't the railroad get some kind of instruction manual from KM indicating what kind of restrictions there were on lugging? When you buy a car, they tell you about towing capacity, and I don't see people using a high horsepower car like an Eclipse or a Firebird used to tow many boats.

But I guess some customers can't be helped. My friend had this house on a hillside outside of Los Angeles and bought these telephone poles to be used as pilings for the retaining wall. He told me he burned up the automatic transmission on his Suburban towing a trailer of these things up the hill. Just hope the cost of a new transmission was worth it in terms of savings over paying a guy with a big truck to bring the poles.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo



The SP also ordered the "hood" variety and the three ALCO C643H's. Those units (ALCO's) rode so hard that crews started filing injury claims!

Really? you mean like "back injuries" because of bumpy rides? or something else?

QUOTE:
There were several reasons why they were not continued, but most can be called "unfamilure technology". Cost of parts also played a part.

Think trains mag made mention of something a few years ago along the lines that the railroads were not set up like the socialist german govt where primary interest is in creating jobs for people to work, which I guess was a shot at the high maintenance labor requirement?

QUOTE:
We had several assigned to Eugene for a while and the Division used them on the Brooklyn-Eugene pool with one K-M and an F7 A unit paired back-to-back. The F7 would be able to start the train which the K-M could not do. But once the F7 had even only just 1/2 MPH the K-M could hold its feet and the train took off like a rocket. Quite a sight!

I'll bet...got any pix?

[Anonymous]

For those interested in learning more about Diesel-Hydraulics on the Southern Pacific, John Bonds Garmany has a chapter devoted to Diesel-Hydraulics (chapter 12 pp 323 - 345) in his book titled "Southern Pacific Dieselization," published by Pacific Fast Mail - Edmonds, Washington, ISBN No 0-915713-12-8. It would be worth getting it via interlibrary loan. A very good read.

In the Epilogue to Chapter 12 the author quotes the SP, " It is the Southern Pacific's view that the experiment with the diesel-hydraulic locomotives has demonstrated the merits of the drive principle as an alternative to electric propulsion on locomotives. The hydraulic transmission was an excellent piece of equipment, which we think would be very practical for U. S. operation..." Then Garmany states, "The Maybach engine was incompatible with SP servicing practices and facilities."

Jim

[Tulyar15]

It's interesting how this discussion has moved on to Diesel Hydraulic locos. I found my copy of Keith Robertson's book about the Great Western's Gas Turbine loco's last night.

After buying two gas turbine locos and running them for a few years in the 1950's, the Western Region of British Rail decided to order diesel hydraulic locos. This flew in the face of general BR traction policy, which favoured diesel electric locos. The main argument the Western region used was the better power weight ratio. The 2,200 hp "Warship" class diesel hyrdaulics, which were based on the German V200 class weighed 80 tons whereas the 2,000 hp diesel electric D200 (later class 40) built by English Electric weighed 130 tons! But the diesel hydraulics were more expensive to run, even though in the 1960's the "Warships" clocked up more miles per annum than other 2,000+ hp diesel on BR (except for the Deltics!). But by then improvements in electrical technology meant that generators were a lot lighter and so too were the bodies. By 1971 BR had produce the two prototype diesel electric locomotives for the prototype High Speed Diesel Train (later shortened to HST) that produced 2,500hp but only weighted 75 tons. By then the decision had already been taken to phase out the diesel hydraulics on the Western region. When the production HST's entered service on the Western Region in 1976 the diesel hydraulics had nearly all gone by the end of that year.

But one area where hydraulic transmission does reign supreme in Britain to-day is with diesel multiple units. Apart from the Virgin Voyagers, which have electric transmission, all the new DMU's in Britain to-day have hydraulic transmission. Likewise the Northern Ireland Railways, who favoured Diesel-electric transmission for a long time have now taken delivery of new DMU's with hydraulic transmission.

[Modelcar]

....With the post above pondering the hydrostatic transmission for his lawn tractor...That's the best way to go...Have had my John Deere now 10 years and I couldn't be more satisfied...Press one pedal to go forward and one to go back...and the farther one presses those pedals the faster it travels....Could not be better.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The use of torque-converter (hydraulic) transmissions for DMU's was also quite successful on this side of the Atlantic as attested to by the Budd RDC.

In the issue of TRAINS in which he expounded on his "true" train, John G. Kneiling advocated a gas-turbine direct drive rather than a gas-turbine electric drive. I have no idea how this could have been accomplished. Off the top of my head, it would require a fair amount of gear reduction (like a turboprop) and a very heavy duty torque converter.

[Tulyar15]

I believe Bombardier have proposed building such a locomotive. A few years ago they tried to interest Great Western in this as a replacement for their diesel High Speed Trains (HST)' - GW being the biggest user of them. However it now seems more likely that they will be replaced with a Mk2 version. Already some of the locomotives have been rebuilt with new engines which will hopefully power the replacement trains.