No wonder UP is shorthanded

[Anonymous]

Hey, Anti-G, Finally someone out there that doesn't have their head up their A*%! I can all too much relate to your opinion of "human resources", I dunna' know, "Slave labor" comes to mind. I think we have too many "armchair railroaders" here in this forum. I'd bet 90% of them sit at a desk all day. If they were asked to disregard their family life alltogether, and be at their employers beck and call, 24/7/365, and have mercy on ya' if you don't answer the call, most of these "railfans" would just as soon go flip burgers for the rest of their lives. It takes a lot of "cahunas" to work the rail and try to live a somewhat normal life. As a union man, I wait with great anticipation, when the S#(! finally starts flowing back up-hill. My contract is expiring this next month, if we can't settle, we'll let the "management" go through hel* for a few weeks.
Regards, Todd C.

[BRAKIE]

Rick,I recall one night while I was braking on the PRR our engineer got so drunk the fireman had to run the engine.In those days you could see drinking on the job.Those few that did had a quart bottle of beer or a pint of whiskey...

[Anonymous]

It's a mad,mad world.Ex-druggies secure railroad employment,and people with rail interests don't make it past the first round.They have compiled the data and know exactly the kinds of people they need.Hooray for profiling!

[Anonymous]

I used to see some drug and alcohol use during the 70's and 80's. It was done fairly openly by those who used the stuff. I once heard a brakeman bragging about how he shot vodka into an orange he carried in his lunch pail. When I asked the conductor why he would let a guy like that work on his crew, he just shrugged and said "he does his job. If he gets messed up we'll just let him sleep in the caboose and do his part of the work. There's not much I can do about it."

I think Operation RedBlock has helped a lot. At least the guys with problems come to work sober no matter what they might be doing in their off hours. And I remember that brakeman was fired about ten years later (he offered to sell me his safety belt buckle because he was broke...very sad).

But I agree, it is very disapointing to see or hear about reckless, incompentent people with drug or alcohol problems getting railroad jobs while people who actually have an interest in the industry get snubbed because they build models or take pictures.

Granted, their are many in the railfan community who could not handle the job. And some are an embarassment to the hobby and give all of us a black eye. Sadly, this is true of all hobbies and industries.

I take pictures at work, I take pictures of old cars, old buildings, family, friends, fellow employees, ships, news events, sunsets, football games, whatever. Photography is a hobby, not a vice. Building models is a constructive past time. Drugs, Alcohol and reckless driving are not.

Oddly enough, when the railroads need photo's, who do they turn to? Foamers. Including their employees who take photo's. We supply the pictures for their calendars, employee pictures for their monthly magazines, accidents, and for the walls of their offices.

Despite the bias against railfans, it's surprising how many actually work for the railroads.

I forget the name, but there was a former Soo Line official who wrote a Soo Line motive power book (was his name Appel?). He claimed (tongue in cheek) in the introduction that the real reason railroads bought new locomotives was so that railroad officials could have their pictures taken on the them for the annual report (funny).

Run8John

[Anonymous]

"Gomer" is an old Army term for a guy who openly smokes at night, sleeps on guard duty, generally doesn't care and screws up a lot. Basically...an easy target who won't last long once the shooting starts.

"Gobbers" was supposed to be "Goobers", (finger slipped on the keyboard) who was of course...Gomer Pyle's cousin.

GERF's are Glassy Eyed Rail Fan's.

I know there are more terms out there but that's probably better suited to a different topic.

Run8John

[Mookie]

What is Operation RedBlock?

[Anonymous]

About 10 years ago I watched a congressional hearing on C-span regarding a derailment in Louisiana.The engineer testified that he was not running the train when it derailed-it was his wife-he wasn't even conscious when the derailment occured.She accompanied him on many of his assignments and she eventually learned some train handling skills.He would drink beer/liquor and she ran the train.While waiting for our freight to get a green signal at the junction one night,my train hopping friends and I saw the conductor tip back a beer.

[Anonymous]

Well, thanks for what I take as a complement!!

Though, I can't take credit for discovering anything in this context,..it's just been a learning experiance...."life" I mean..;-)

Where I work, I have a solid supervisory position, been there 26 years, worked my way through college here in fact before accepting an offer for what became a career.

Few years ago, the company goes on this "new blood" kick...

I'll admit the new blood they brought in was uncommonly sharp, complete with their backstabing henchmen they salted out among the ranks....but the odd thing was, they didn't know squat about running the business. Everytime something non-text book came up, they were sunk, and I mean SUNK! They come running with the dangedest expectations for help, when they never did a thing to deserve it

I am a company man, I know the owners personally, so I continued to serve the company, wherever the newbies agennda suited the companies best interest, despite the unrelated BS I saw the newbies pulling on guys who had been faithful employees for years.

At one such instance I made the the "floats to top" commentary off the cuff, not knowing one of the prime henchmen overheard it, till I hear his brtrayed sounding "hey! that's not nice" rebuttal behind my back....


It was funny, a moment I will treasure forever.

I knew *that* incident would earn me a day in the sun,...but thankfully I have a knack for knowing when to sidestep at the last second, letting them take the brunt of their own ire, head on...=)

[Anonymous]

Funny when you think about it. I'll be the first to admit, I was no angel,...far from it...and if there is a heaven, and a he!!...I'm in big trouble..

I can remember when If you were drunk, got pulled over by a cop for traffic related stuff, If you could stand up, you had nothing to worry about, just get yer ticket, and be on your way...


And The guy I mention? love him like a brother. It's just that when we were all getting our drivers licences years ago, *this* guy would be the one you called "crash", if you get my drift.

He would truly be the last one on the planet I would have suspected to be running 4000 hp locomotives...I guess the rails make all the difference.. ;-)

He has promised me a cab ride when I come home next summer, and I trust his commitment to sobriety enough to trust him (looking forward to it in fact)


I just was tickled over the obvious frustration the author of this thread was having in getting "hired on", when folks I know very well have landed seats as you might say "right in the front row"

Hopefully, he will take it as the encouragement I intended..

[Anonymous]

There's not a thing in your post that I don't agree with, all very true.

But by the same token, I think the screaming Mee mee's have taken the "anti-substance abuse" game a bit far.

I've smoked a lot of pot in my time, eventually, as I got older, I just found it put me to sleep, so I figured "what's the use?" so I stopped. That was about 10 years ago.

Everytime you hear about an accident, the screaming mee-mee's are all over the map, awaiting the results of "who ever's" blood test. If the test is positive "Boil them in oil", if negative...well then that's the last you hear about the operator.

Funny thing is, if you smoke a joint, traces of the fatty metabolite will show a positive for 6 weeks.

As I recall, the intoxicating effect of weed is not much longer than alcohol. If you smoke a joint on a saturday night, I defy you to measure empiracle disfunction on monday morning as a result.

Still, if a hypothetical locomotive, through no fault, crushes through a bus full of preschoolers whose driver was "at fault", if the engineer passes his blood test (aka a "good sober american") nothing more comes of it. But let him flunk, over a joint he smoked a week ago.....and it's manslaughter...do you really call *that* fair?

And, before you launch some "law of the land" argument, I'll remind you that it was once a crime to help slaves escape from the plantation.


Just my 2 cents, not an attack on you logic,..ok?

But I really think that the media spun condemnation of "awful druggies" in a one size fits all capacity is mighty self serving and unjust.

In fact it's not too hard to see a panel of alcoholics more than willing to jump to the ready and say "well, at least I'm not one of those filthy drug addicts"....in self serving fashion...similar.. infunction to the Railroads condemnation of "foamers"...=) your serve!

[Anonymous]

There's not a thing in your post that I don't agree with, all very true.

But by the same token, I think the screaming Mee mee's have taken the "anti-substance abuse" game a bit far.

I've smoked a lot of pot in my time, eventually, as I got older, I just found it put me to sleep, so I figured "what's the use?" so I stopped. That was about 10 years ago.

Everytime you hear about an accident, the screaming mee-mee's are all over the map, awaiting the results of "who ever's" blood test. If the test is positive "Boil them in oil", if negative...well then that's the last you hear about the operator.

Funny thing is, if you smoke a joint, traces of the fatty metabolite will show a positive for 6 weeks.

As I recall, the intoxicating effect of weed is not much longer than alcohol. If you smoke a joint on a saturday night, I defy you to measure empiracle disfunction on monday morning as a result.

Still, if a hypothetical locomotive, through no fault, crushes through a bus full of preschoolers whose driver was "at fault", if the engineer passes his blood test (aka a "good sober american") nothing more comes of it. But let him flunk, over a joint he smoked a week ago.....and it's manslaughter...do you really call *that* fair?

And, before you launch some "law of the land" argument, I'll remind you that it was once a crime to help slaves escape from the plantation.


Just my 2 cents, not an attack on you logic,..ok?

But I really think that the media spun condemnation of "awful druggies" in a one size fits all capacity is mighty self serving and unjust.

In fact it's not too hard to see a panel of alcoholics more than willing to jump to the ready and say "well, at least I'm not one of those filthy drug addicts"....in self serving fashion...similar.. infunction to the Railroads condemnation of "foamers"...=) your serve!

[wabash1]

this is amazing. i have learned that in my 12hr shift running a locomotive that i drink and i am drunk by the time i get there.( maybe that is why it takes 12 hrs and a relief crew not the ge engines) and that to get the job i was a drug addict not to mention i showed up drunk to the interview. that people who can do the job better than us are mad couse they didnt get the job. ( should have showed up drunk like the rest of us. or at least lit up a joint in the first round.) and that the human resources people must be stoned or drunk, couse they couldnt see that fact that you wanted the job, you didnt bring in the beer and drugs to share with them. if you did you be on a engine sitting in a siding drinking smoking and having a good time. making money.

now reality sets in the railroads have hired foamers in the past and they stay long enough to take a few pics and ride a few trains and say yep i did that and quit. all that money wasted. i can say for the railroad i work for when you go to the hire session and if you make it to the interview, you dont get drug tested then it will be a week or so before that happens when they run a back ground check then if nothing is found then you go for a physical and drug test. then if that is negative then you are hired.

but after reading how i am a drug addict and a drunk you wonder why we hate foamers. i guess we pay the man to hide the results of the drug testing . but it had to come we are just like the other transportation groups truckers, bus drivers air line pilots, river boat captains, all drunks and drug addicts. well its time for another beer i want to be right when i get to work .

[Anonymous]

Operation Redblock was a (excuse the pun) joint effort by the railroads and the labor unions to curb drug and alcohol abuse on the railroad.

If I recall correctly, the program started sometime in the early 1980's about the same time as Mothers against Drunk Driving, "Just say No" and the D.A.R.E. program for teens were starting.

The program offered voluntary and first offense rehabilitation programs but after that, the railroads were going to get tough on violations of Rule G (no alcohol or drugs).

You'll see some locomotives lettered "Operation Redblock" and they came out with a lot of bumper stickers, etc for the employees.

run8john

[Anonymous]

Your right.

And I think it illustrates part of the management vs. employees attitude that so many people have commented on in this discussion.

If management automatically assumes the employee is guilty and that there are no other reasons for the problem or accident, then the level of distrust and animosity will only get worse.

We've all heard of the crew fatigue factor. I can't blame a guy for getting off the train at 10:00 am in the morning after a 10 hour trip and having a few beers so he can fall asleep and get rested for the return trip at 10:00 that evening. The work schedules really screws up the sleep cycle.

And your right, there is a double standard:

Wasn't it Graham Claytor, President of the Southern Railway who was at the controls of a steam excursion that derailed and he refused to take the company mandated post accident drug test ?

I also remember the CEO of a prominent railroad who was arrested for DUI on two occasions.

I know that this didn't set a fine example to the employees.

And if your unlucky enough to be involved in an incident in a town or county that has a beef against the railroad...the employees will be the first victims.

A friend of mine hit a guy just sitting on the rail (totally wasted) one night and the local police demanded that my friend take a drug test!

To their credit, the railroad distpatcher and Corridor manager on duty that evening, steadfastly defended their employee and told him to lock himself in the cab until the Special Agent showed up if they persisted. The police backed down and admitted they didn't want to do it but that they we're under orders from a city councilman to test all railroad employees involved in any kind of accident in that town.

The employee's seem to be subject to a lot of unwarrented harrassment .

run8john

[Anonymous]

Thank you John.
Gary Z = GERF

[Anonymous]

I was refused employment by two western roads. One said I was too fat at 180 lbs and the other said I was too Idealistic. Ha!

I got my start at a public transit agency, walking track with a grease bucket on my back. After thirty years, I now do signal engineering. I have found only that as you rise, the S@#$ just gets to you quicker on its way down hill. We have it better here only because all jobs are local. But the same management crap goes on as has been spoken of thoughout this thread.

Seriously though, we have had a lot of people hire on who quit the UP in disgust, at all levels, even top management.

HOW do we fix it?
I don't know a lot, but I know this. Big mega-mergers have got to be outlawed, retro-active. Teddy Roosevelt has got to be rolling in his grave about now! Bust up the UP, Microsloth, Big power companies, or just about any interstate corporation. Maybe a bit of corporate capital punishment (de-charter the corporation and divide the assets to those who were hurt) would deter all this anti-social behavior.

None of this is likely, or even politically palitable.. But in my mind - SO WHAT. The reality is that almost all big corporations, and even big goverments, have grown just too big to to be managed effectively by anyone - even by magic.

[Anonymous]

Whomever you are, your comments are so inaccurate that your entire statement lacks credibility. Go away!

[Anonymous]

"J", I suspect that most of these "people" who are posting these comments don't understand the quality of what you just said. What you say is perfect. For whatever road you work, they are fortunate to have you.

[Anonymous]

You are SO Right.

We really shouldn't be two hard on Amtrak, though. They have had a big problem with "Foamers", I mean guys who seem to actually foam at the mouth about railroads, all foam -nothing real.

It was once a major American pasttime to go down to the station and watch the trains go by - at least at the smaller way-stations. There are even old folksongs about it. I used to take my family to the station, but I gave it up in disgust as every night there were these "Hotdogs" struttin around, bullying the waiting passengers, trying to tell everyone what to do. They even boss some Amtrak agents around. Of course, if you watched long enough, you could figure out that they were only trying to out-do one another -be the big dude who knows it all. I have also witnessed outright theft of railroad property - they always say the company does want it anymore and doesn't realize its value. HA!

I got my start in railroading even before my Father was born - From my Grandfather. Its obviously in my blood. I have worked the rails for thirty years. I take my railroading seriously, and wi***o pass the love of railroading to my descendants, as my fathers did.

But I cannot stomach the behavior of some so-called railfans. I don't want to expose my children to such frothing behavior. So I don't go to the station any more.

Does anyone know how the "Railfan" community can rid itself of these nuisance individuals. If we could manage this, we would probably be welcomed back by the industry with open arms. Going down to the station could again become a favorite American pastime.

[Mookie]

Do the railroads randomly drug test, only in the case of an accident or on any kind of schedule?

[Mookie]

OK - I have learned that foamers and women aren't at the top of most of the lists for employees. But in your (and any one else reading) opinion, is the drug/drinking problem out of control, under control, happens only occasionally or is truely a threat to the driving/riding public. This can be railroads, truckers, bus drivers, etc.

Seems to me that sleep, or lack thereof, is a very major problem - is it more so than drugs/alcohol?

[Mookie]

Thank you for answering my question.

[wabash1]

the way they look at hiring over here is in this order. black women, then women then black men then anyone else. they are alittle harder on a women to start as they are tired of the excuses of i cant work i have nobody to watch my kids, its that time of the month, and sexual harrasment is a big thing for the railroads, all of these make it harder for woman to get jobs on the railroad. the woman we have working are in my opinion great assets to the company.

as far as drugs go there is not a problem the drug man has been in town all week here you never know when he is comming and never know who is going to get pulled. the only person who knows when he is comming is the train master. in transportation drug testing is all random unless it is after a incident, then its manditory. i dont know of any transportation group that has a problem with any substance abuse, its a thing of the past, i should say that you are also pre-employment tested also.

sleep is a problem for the new guys who dont know how to get thier rest properly. when you go into transportation its a 24 / 7 365 year job no matter what it is trucking railroading airlines it never stops. oh sure some people get off but some still work.

in closing if you want a job with the railroad here is how to get it. dont talk to anyone, anything you think you know about railroading keep to yourself, to many foamer tell someone (interviewer)that they know how the railroad works they dont need training that they have watched trains listen to the radio and know the job. railroads want to train you in the way they want it done. that may not be the way you see it done, in other words you are green so they can mold you into what they want. then the other way to keep it after being hired is do as the conductor wants you to do on that job. if not you wont be there long, its called black balled and it does happen. if they cant trust you and cant show you anything then nobody wants you. it gets back to the train master and you are gone.

[Mookie]

Wow! Some real common sense. This is becoming a rarity nowdays. I think you have covered it pretty well. Sounds a little like we can't all be brain surgeons can we? So some work for transporation and some of us just read about it.

Thanx

Jen