Sure, but I was referring to incentivizing people who might want to work longer or who may be on the fence about wanting to retire. People who want to retire should absolutely be allowed to do so and at whatever age they want to; however, there are a significant number of older people who would love to stay on but can't due to company retirement policies and to ageism. Sadly, many capable people are sidelined when they want to continue to contribute.. I'm talking about making it easier for those people to remain in the workforce... maybe through financial incentives or by somehow arranging the work to better fit their needs and capabilities.
I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc.
BackshopI'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc.
Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Sigh.. no one here has suggested bringing retirees back. The idea was to encourage those who don't want to retire and those who aren't sure to stay on .. big difference. Cajoling people who have made up their minds to retire is an exercise in futility..
BaltACD Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc. Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue.
Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc.
Some of us can comprehend..
Ulrich BaltACD Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc. Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue. Some of us can comprehend.. as we too have worked in challenging environments.. perhaps even more challenging..
Some of us can comprehend.. as we too have worked in challenging environments.. perhaps even more challenging..
Backshop Ulrich BaltACD Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc. Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue. Some of us can comprehend.. as we too have worked in challenging environments.. perhaps even more challenging.. Have you been responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis...I think not.
Have you been responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis...I think not.
Don't assume.. we don't know that much about each other. Perhaps you can tell us about how you've been responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis..
Ulrich Don't assume.. we don't know that much about each other. Perhaps you can tell us about how you've been responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis..
Backshop Ulrich Don't assume.. we don't know that much about each other. Perhaps you can tell us about how you've been responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis.. I never said that I did. I said that airline pilots and railroad engineers do.
I never said that I did. I said that airline pilots and railroad engineers do.
Don't forget truck drivers.. a mistake on their part can make the national news as well.
UlrichSigh.. no one here has suggested bringing retirees back. The idea was to encourage those who don't want to retire and those who aren't sure to stay on .. big difference. Cajoling people who have made up their minds to retire is an exercise in futility..
If guys don't want to retire, they don't have to (as long as they can pass their physicals). I've seen a bunch stay long after they could retire.
But on the flip side, those that stay take up spots on the roster that will prevent others from moving up, and those towards the bottom get tired of waiting to hold something "more decent-er" and may end up leaving. So to keep a qualified person 5 more years, you may lose a qualified person that had 25+ more years left.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann Ulrich Sigh.. no one here has suggested bringing retirees back. The idea was to encourage those who don't want to retire and those who aren't sure to stay on .. big difference. Cajoling people who have made up their minds to retire is an exercise in futility.. If guys don't want to retire, they don't have to (as long as they can pass their physicals). I've seen a bunch stay long after they could retire. But on the flip side, those that stay take up spots on the roster that will prevent others from moving up, and those towards the bottom get tired of waiting to hold something "more decent-er" and may end up leaving. So to keep a qualified person 5 more years, you may lose a qualified person that had 25+ more years left.
Ulrich Sigh.. no one here has suggested bringing retirees back. The idea was to encourage those who don't want to retire and those who aren't sure to stay on .. big difference. Cajoling people who have made up their minds to retire is an exercise in futility..
All true, but the basic premise here is that there's a shortfall in staff for a number of reasons.. some of them self inflicted (read PSR) and some due to population demographics. So to bridge the gap between now and 2034.. when we can once again see young people entering the workforce outpacing retirements, there should be enough work for all.
Ulrich BaltACD Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc. Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue. Some of us can comprehend..
Backshop Ulrich BaltACD Backshop I'm on an airline forum and this thread would fit right in. People from outside the industry suggest that retirees be brought back. Insiders are continually telling them that there's a reason they retired and they aren't coming back. Same complaints, too. Fatigue, long hours, etc. Outsiders that have NEVER worked under the conditions the retiree's are escaping can't comprehend the conditions. They 'think' they can, but they don't have a clue. Some of us can comprehend.. Nice post editing...
Nice post editing...
I know.. my original comment came across as a little too aggressive.. I edited it but I wasn't quick enough.
Ulrich. So to bridge the gap between now and 2034.. when we can once again see young people entering the workforce outpacing retirements, there should be enough work for all.
Wouldn't it be better to just fix the issues that prevent younger people from wanting to work for the RR to begin with? Becuase that isn't going to fix itself by 2034 at this rate. Plus some of those same issues are reasons many people will retire the second they can.
zugmann Ulrich . So to bridge the gap between now and 2034.. when we can once again see young people entering the workforce outpacing retirements, there should be enough work for all. Wouldn't it be better to just fix the issues that prevent younger people from wanting to work for the RR to begin with? Becuase that isn't going to fix itself by 2034 at this rate. Plus some of those same issues are reasons many people will retire the second they can.
Ulrich . So to bridge the gap between now and 2034.. when we can once again see young people entering the workforce outpacing retirements, there should be enough work for all.
I would think so. And fixing the issues should be done concurrently with bridging the employment shortfall as above. There's no reason both can't be done.. No matter what happens now, they won't be able to hire people fast enough as there's inertia in the hiring process at the best of times..
A big part of the problem is that it costs money to have people on the payroll, whether they are working or not.
I was told some years ago that it is cheaper to pay overtime than to hire someone to cover the work/hours required.
This tidbit is certainly not lost on the railroads, which is likely why the boards are cut to the minimum. They'd rather leave a train hanging than have two more people on the roster.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Is there any such thing as "part time" HOS crew positions on Class 1's? Let's say an experienced engineer/ conductor was nearing retirement, but was willing to stay on for, say, 3 specified days a week (with a commensurate reduction in pay). Worker gets to transition into a lighter schedule, but RR retains an experienced person to provide some crew capacity.
Is that a thing on the railroad, or is it like slack - all in or all out?
Historically, the problem was often the opposite. Part of the reason the FDR administration created the US Railroad Retirement Board was that there were railroad engineers and conductors in their 70s, 80s, even 90s who were still working. Generally, the greater your seniority, the better job you could bid on, so by the time you were near retirement age you had a relatively easy - and high paying - job.
Which circles back to the original OP question, have there been shortages in railroad employment before? When the RRB kicked in it required employees to retire at age 70. There were so many employees older than that, that for a time there was actually a shortage or railroad workers in the middle of the Great Depression.
zugmann If guys don't want to retire, they don't have to (as long as they can pass their physicals). I've seen a bunch stay long after they could retire.
I've known a number of folks who were enjoying their jobs, reasonably healthy, etc., but who retired younger than 65 because "I'll make more in retirement than if I kept working." May or may not literally be true, but the point is once you hit 60/30, the pay you get for continuing to work is very small versus what you would get by retiring. Many of them go on to hold part-time jobs with contractors - but they are limited in how much they can work each year, lest they negatively affect their status with RRRB.
The guys I'm thinking of were not TY&E, but many of them were agreement employees.
So yes, there is some room to make railroad retirement rules friendlier to people who want to keep working.
Dan
dpeltierSo yes, there is some room to make railroad retirement rules friendlier to people who want to keep working.
I've also known guys that stayed a few extra years, then retired, and regretted not retiring the minute they could.
You never can get back time.
There's millions of other jobs that will let you work until they stick you into a hole in the earth. Railroading is not one of those yet. I don't want it to become one. At least not until after I retire if I make it that far.
dpeltier zugmann If guys don't want to retire, they don't have to (as long as they can pass their physicals). I've seen a bunch stay long after they could retire. I've known a number of folks who were enjoying their jobs, reasonably healthy, etc., but who retired younger than 65 because "I'll make more in retirement than if I kept working." May or may not literally be true, but the point is once you hit 60/30, the pay you get for continuing to work is very small versus what you would get by retiring. Many of them go on to hold part-time jobs with contractors - but they are limited in how much they can work each year, lest they negatively affect their status with RRRB. The guys I'm thinking of were not TY&E, but many of them were agreement employees. So yes, there is some room to make railroad retirement rules friendlier to people who want to keep working. Dan
Can't speak for anyone but myself. I am CLEARING more in retirement than I was clearing when I was working.
I was grossing more when working, however, I was paying into Railroad Retirement on both Tier 1 and Tier 2, my donation to my 401-K, federal and state taxes (in Maryland not Florida) as well as a portion of healthcare.
In retirement I am paying federal and state taxes as well as an amount for Medicare. The results are that between my RRB payments and my non-contract Company pension I am clearing more than when I was working. I doesn't hurt that I had 50 years of RRB credits and maxed out RRB witholding for my last 25 years of working.
zugmannThere's millions of other jobs that will let you work until they stick you into a hole in the earth.
I think we all know of people who lived to work. When they retired (voluntarily or otherwise), they lose a major part of their life, and many pass only a few years after retiring.
tree68I think we all know of people who lived to work. When they retired (voluntarily or otherwise), they lose a major part of their life, and many pass only a few years after retiring.
And I think that's pretty sad. Both before and after their passing.
zugmann tree68 I think we all know of people who lived to work. When they retired (voluntarily or otherwise), they lose a major part of their life, and many pass only a few years after retiring. And I think that's pretty sad. Both before and after their passing.
tree68 I think we all know of people who lived to work. When they retired (voluntarily or otherwise), they lose a major part of their life, and many pass only a few years after retiring.
Had a Dispatcher at Jacksonville that walked out of the building on his retirement day and died in his car in the parking lot.
Backshop zugmann tree68 I think we all know of people who lived to work. When they retired (voluntarily or otherwise), they lose a major part of their life, and many pass only a few years after retiring. And I think that's pretty sad. Both before and after their passing. Those are usually people who didn't have any pastimes or hobbies. Their entire lives was working.
Those are usually people who didn't have any pastimes or hobbies. Their entire lives was working.
For some work isn't so bad. It's probably best to learn to like what one does and to become tolerant of the many imperfections of the workplace and of those around you. Retirement may never happen.. don't put off living.
UlrichRetirement may never happen.. don't put off living.
And at the same time, if you do make it to retirement, why not enjoy it? Not like you haven't earned it.
zugmann Ulrich Retirement may never happen.. don't put off living. And at the same time, if you do make it to retirement, why not enjoy it? Not like you haven't earned it.
Ulrich Retirement may never happen.. don't put off living.
Absolutely!
BaltACDHad a Dispatcher at Jacksonville that walked out of the building on his retirement day and died in his car in the parking lot.
Truly sad. But I have so far enjoyed the last 20+ years without having to get up and catch the 6:30 AM commuter train (though I did enjoy the ride). Now I am on a portable oxygen system and don't like the limitations on what I can do. My oncologist said to me "Getting Old is not for sissies."The downward slope awaits and I hope to enjoy a few more days before I can't.
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zugmann SD70Dude And sure, a lot of older folks could continue working, but why should they? They won't get any special thanks (certainly not from management or the government) and don't they deserve to enjoy retirement when they planned to? I was always a fan of "30 and out" myself. It's not like we have all the yard jobs and locals of years past. How many people are really going to want to stay past retirement working unassigned pool crap?
SD70Dude And sure, a lot of older folks could continue working, but why should they? They won't get any special thanks (certainly not from management or the government) and don't they deserve to enjoy retirement when they planned to?
I was always a fan of "30 and out" myself.
It's not like we have all the yard jobs and locals of years past. How many people are really going to want to stay past retirement working unassigned pool crap?
Well, depending on things, I'm planning on going to 70. Hopefully working the pool. I rarely work the yard when they are out of extra board, unless there is a benefit. (Like the time it got me 48 hours Federal required rest.) I've not really had any bad experiences working the yard, I just would rather work the road.
The things dependent on staying, I'll have 30 years in when I'm 65, are my health and the level of BS. When the level reaches my chin, it's time to leave. That is a possiblity.
I recently read in a magazine, not Trains, about a guy who retired at 81. He started off as a clerk/operator at a class one and finished up as an engineer on a short line.
Jeff
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