How to 'Ask Trains' / Broken Rail repairs

[Thomas 9011]

 

 

edblysard

Track type	Freight train	Passenger
Excepted [us 1]	<10 mph (16 km/h)	not allowed
Class 1	10 mph (16 km/h)	15 mph (24 km/h)
Class 2	25 mph (40 km/h)	30 mph (48 km/h)
Class 3	40 mph (64 km/h)	60 mph (97 km/h)
Class 4 [us 2]	60 mph (97 km/h)	80 mph (129 km/h)
Class 5 [us 3]	80 mph (129 km/h)	90 mph (145 km/h)
Class 6	110 mph (177 km/h)
Class 7 [us 4]	125 mph (201 km/h)
Class 8 [us 5]	160 mph (257 km/h)
Class 9 [us 6]	200 mph (322 km/h)

 

 

§ 213.122   Torch cut rail.

(a) Except as a temporary repair in emergency situations no rail having a torch cut end shall be used in Classes 3 through 5 track. When a rail end is torch cut in emergency situations, train speed over that rail end shall not exceed the maximum allowable for Class 2 track. For existing torch cut rail ends in Classes 3 through 5 track the following shall apply—

(1) Within one year of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 5 track shall be removed;

(2) Within two years of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 4 track shall be removed; and

(3) Within one year of September 21, 1998, all torch cut rail ends in Class 3 track over which regularly scheduled passenger trains operate, shall be inventoried by the track owner.

(b) Following the expiration of the time limits specified in paragraphs (a)(1), (2), and (3) of this section, any torch cut rail end not removed from Classes 4 and 5 track, or any torch cut rail end not inventoried in Class 3 track over which regularly scheduled passenger trains operate, shall be removed within 30 days of discovery. Train speed over that rail end shall not exceed the maximum allowable for Class 2 track until removed.

 

 

Federal Railroad Administration, DOT Pt. 213, App. .

I would like to correct you here, exempt, class 1 and class 2 track are three distinct and separate critters…

Excepted tracks are pretty much either abandoned or if used, you have to take a weed eater, machete and ax with you to remove the trees inside the gauge.

You also tote a re-rail frog, wood wedges, rail bolts and joint bars, wrenches and as much chain as you can get on the locomotives running boards, and a track jack or two plus shovels and pry bars.

Max speed is under 10 mph hour, and you would be both brave and lucky if you ran anywhere near that speed.

Exempt track may not have seen a train in years, they are often abandoned and left to rot because the railroad as a company no longer exists, maybe the owner has not found a customer to buy the property, or the railroad has one customer they serve on an as needed basis.

Basically, exempt track is one step away from total abandonment, if not actually abandoned already; maintenance isn’t an issue, because there isn’t any to begin with.

Class 1 and 2 track are those track belonging to the mom and pop railroads, you know, they ones that serve 1 or two customers once every day, the old lumber mill out in the boonies and the rock quarry.

Class 2 track means that is not just a possibility you will get on the ground, but a fact…somewhere at some point in time the track will give out…even though passenger traffic is allowed, most tourist operations don’t do well when the train falls down so they rarely allow their track to be less than class 3.

On class 1 track, if you’re lucky, every fifth or sixth tie has two spikes on each side holding the rail down, and every 6^th tie isn’t beginning to rot.

On these railroads, the speed limits should be the tip off …because of the speeds, derailments are less likely to cause serious damage to the cars, and CWR with thermite welding isn’t a possibility to begin with, way out of their cost range.

Most class 1 and 2 tracks are laid with second hand rail of varying weight.

If memory serves me, exempt track and class 1 may not carry any hazardous material, class 2 track no more than five cars of hazardous material.

Class 3 tracks are found on the smaller regional and local short lines, the ones that might serve a small industrial park, or a few grain elevators, they may run two or three trains a day, they gather up cars which they interchange with other railroads, often at the host railroads yards.

Better than the mom and pop operations, but on tight budgets, if it ain’t broke and not in the budget, don’t fix it.

Most industrial tracks and leads in older plants and facilities are class 2 or 3 track.

Note that the CFR requires all torch cut rail be removed from class 3 through 5 tracks by Sept. 21, 1998.

The regulations themselves are laws, and most of them come with fairly stiff civil penalties for violations.

Thomas, the FRA didn’t write these laws; they are simply the agency that was created to and is charged with interpreting and enforcing them under administrative law..

The laws themselves were written by Congress, enabled under the U.S Code which precedes the CFR.

The FRA may recommend changes to or modifications of existing regulations, and can propose new regulations, which Congress may pass into law.

The CFR itself are the codes written out in detail for the various agencies charged with administering that particular part of the code, basically the instructions including details they are required to follow.

 

 

Actually hazardous materials are allowed on exempt track. Wrong again!

213.4 Excepted track

 (3) No freight train shall be operated that contains more than five cars required to be placarded by the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR Part 172); 

I found no restrictions on the limits of hazardous materials on class one and class two track.

I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

 

 

 

[Thomas 9011]

I don't think I really need to respond to some of the immature and childish remarks which are growing far away from the subject at hand. It's actually quite amusing to me to watch so many people having a meltdown. This topic isn't about me or my history. It is about the rules. I pointed out early on that one way of repairing a broken rail is using a cutting torch and replacing it with another rail. I was absolutely right. You can whine and cry all you want over this issue. It still wont change the fact that I have the support of the FRA to back me up on this issue. 

 

[tree68]

Thomas 9011

I found no restrictions on the limits of hazardous materials on class one and class two track.

Well, he did say "if memory serves." 

Thomas 9011

I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false. 

 

But it does reflect reality, as most anyone who's actually worked such track can attest.

You're doing a great job of quoting chapter and verse, but I'm not seeing much that indicates real-world railroading experience.

[edblysard]

• I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

???

What in the world have you been sniffing?

[zugmann]

Thomas 9011

I don't think I really need to respond to some of the immature and childish remarks which are growing far away from the subject at hand. It's actually quite amusing to me to watch so many people having a meltdown. This topic isn't about me or my history. It is about the rules. I pointed out early on that one way of repairing a broken rail is using a cutting torch and replacing it with another rail. I was absolutely right. You can whine and cry all you want over this issue. It still wont change the fact that I have the support of the FRA to back me up on this issue. 

Yeah, good luck with that.  For someone that isn't even working for a railroad (I assume since you are dodging that question) you sure are hung up on these regs. 

[John WR]

zugmann

Yeah, good luck with that.  For someone that isn't even working for a railroad (I assume since you are dodging that question) you sure are hung up on these regs. 

I certainly don't work for the railroad.  But if we cannot rely on the very words of FRA regulations to understand those regulations on what shall we rely?

[tree68]

John WR

I certainly don't work for the railroad.  But if we cannot rely on the very words of FRA regulations to understand those regulations on what shall we rely?

Such regs are minumums.  A railroad can, and often will, have more stringent requirements.

If a railroad wants to ban cutting rail with a torch and hazmat on Excepted and Class 1 track, that's their right.  In doing so they are not violating any laws, regs, or anything else.  There is no reg stating that you MUST cut rail with a torch or take hazmat over Excepted or Class 1 track.

Example - in NORAC, restricted speed calls for "not to exceed 20 MPH."

My railroad is NORAC.  But in our timetable is a provision restricting restricted speed to "not to exceed 10 MPH."  If I run 20 MPH when I should be running restricted speed, I'm going to get nailed for it (assuming someone is watching...).

Most of what 9011 has posted is textbook true.  What Mudchicken, and others, have posted is real-life true, and does not violate the regs 9011 has referenced.

Just because something is allowed does not always mean it's desirable.

[zugmann]

And to add to Tree's  most excellent explanation, if a railroad does choose to make a rule more strict than the FRA, the FRA will hold you to that even stricter interpretation. 

[zugmann]

John WR

zugmann

Yeah, good luck with that.  For someone that isn't even working for a railroad (I assume since you are dodging that question) you sure are hung up on these regs. 

I certainly don't work for the railroad.  But if we cannot rely on the very words of FRA regulations to understand those regulations on what shall we rely?

Quoting rule and understanding the rule are two different beasts.

[Anonymous]

So it is a minimum requirement, but the railroads are free to exceed the minimum.  So what is this disagreement about torch cutting about?  I do not understand the opposing positions here.

[Deggesty]

zugmann

John WR

zugmann

Yeah, good luck with that.  For someone that isn't even working for a railroad (I assume since you are dodging that question) you sure are hung up on these regs. 

I certainly don't work for the railroad.  But if we cannot rely on the very words of FRA regulations to understand those regulations on what shall we rely?

Quoting rule and understanding the rule are two different beasts.

Zug, you speak truly.

[Deggesty]

edblysard

• I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

???

What in the world have you been sniffing?

Ed, my question may not be germane to the basic topic of this thread, but just what determines the class of a given track?

[tree68]

Bucyrus

So it is a minimum requirement, but the railroads are free to exceed the minimum.  So what is this disagreement about torch cutting about?  I do not understand the opposing positions here.

My take -

One side says that since the reg says that torch cutting is acceptable under certain circumstances, it should be common practice, and further can't understand why it isn't.

The other side says it may be an acceptable practice per the reg, but that real-world experience dictates that torch cutting should be avoided whenever possible.

 

[Overmod]

Please note that FRA has changed their internal classification system for some of the relevant documentation, and the base domain for the electronic CFR has also changed.

To save a little time, here is a link to the FRA library search page that has clickable links to the .pdfs of some relevant manuals:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Find#p1_z5_lCM_ktrack

Here is the present eCFR, helpfully preset to Title 49 (you will immediately see the FRA section as its own clickable selection:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=9847af98443bc7e39b2343785cf62919&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title49/49tab_02.tpl

(all pasted on one line with no breaks, of course)

RME

[John WR]

tree68

Such [FRA] regs are minumums.  A railroad can, and often will, have more stringent requirements.

Certainly what you say makes sense.  And, as I say, I am a layman.  But if Sam Supervisor is out on a job and he has his company manual which he knows generally exceeds FRA regulations and he comes upon a problem and refers to his company manual for direction but has no FRA manual available how can he be sure he is meeting the FRA minimum as well as meeting his company's standard?

[zugmann]

Company standard will always be at least FRA standards, and is usually more.

[zardoz]

zugmann

Yeah, good luck with that.  For someone that isn't even working for a railroad (I assume since you are dodging that question) you sure are hung up on these regs. 

They say that most rules are written with blood; if so, then that means at some time in the past the rules were insufficient to cover a particular situation, which thereby resulted in an injury or death. Which is why I'll take ONE experienced railroader anytime over a DOZEN rule-quoting officials.

[John WR]

zugmann

Company standard will always be at least FRA standards, and is usually more.

Thanks for your prompt response, Zugman.  Certainly any railroad employee would follow his company's standards.  But there are many railroad companies and I don't know that their standards are identical.  To the extent that FRA standards are in the Code of Federal Regulations they have the force of law.  Even if they are the minimum standards it does seem to me that they should be respected for that fact alone.  Yet the attitude this layman sees displayed here seems at times to border on contempt for FRA standards,  I find that hard to understand.  

[edblysard]

Deggesty

edblysard

• I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

???

What in the world have you been sniffing?

Ed, my question may not be germane to the basic topic of this thread, but just what determines the class of a given track?

Johnny,

The overall condition of the track and roadbed, and its maintenance schedule and records are the determining factors.

The speed limits are part of the CFR, based on what that class of track can handle, not the other way around.

Class 4 track or any class track for that matter, can have speed restriction placed in areas where work is needed or being done, or there is an issue found through regular inspection….the existence of tunnels and curves has no bearing on the track classification, but may have a bearing on the speed limit the railroad chooses to run at in that given area.

As Zug pointed out, railroads may make and enforce more restrictive rules than the CFR requires, and yes, the FRA will enforce the more restrictive rules, which is why the FRA field inspectors are conversant in the rules of every railroad they are assigned to.

The filed inspector here has to know the BNSF rules, the UP rules and the PTRA safety and work rules.

Just because something is allowed under the CFR, doesn’t mean it is allowed under a given railroads own rules, and the same applies for the GCOR, NORAC and CROR.

Case in point, the GCOR requires only that a person protecting a shoving movement in a yard or industry must be in a position to see where the end of the shove will come to rest.

On the PTRA, you must either ride the lead car of the shove, or be in a position to see the knuckle of the lead car all the way to the point of stop…(not just the car, but the end of the car)

[Murphy Siding]

tree68

Bucyrus

So it is a minimum requirement, but the railroads are free to exceed the minimum.  So what is this disagreement about torch cutting about?  I do not understand the opposing positions here.

My take -

One side says that since the reg says that torch cutting is acceptable under certain circumstances, it should be common practice, and further can't understand why it isn't.

The other side says it may be an acceptable practice per the reg, but that real-world experience dictates that torch cutting should be avoided whenever possible.

 

     Further, one side neglects to acknowledge that the other side has lots of cumulative years of experience, yet feels the need to prove that what he says is to be accepted as the gospel truth,  based on what he read on the FRA rulebook website.

[Murphy Siding]

John WR

tree68

Such [FRA] regs are minumums.  A railroad can, and often will, have more stringent requirements.

Certainly what you say makes sense.  And, as I say, I am a layman.  But if Sam Supervisor is out on a job and he has his company manual which he knows generally exceeds FRA regulations and he comes upon a problem and refers to his company manual for direction but has no FRA manual available how can he be sure he is meeting the FRA minimum as well as meeting his company's standard?

    Huh?  If his company standards are higher than FRA standards, meeting his company standards will then exceed FRA standards. 

[Deggesty]

Thank you, Ed. That was what I thought--that it is the overall condition of the track and the other matters that you named that determines its class, not restrictions based upon curvature, enclosure, or grade. To refer to an example given, it is not the curvature of the Little Ten and Big Ten curves as you ascend to or descend from the Moffatt Tunnel or the tunnel itself, but the conditions you name that determine the class of the track there.

I am sure that you have no martinets riding herd on you in your work, but men who understand the rules of your company and all that the federal law requires and forbids.

[Overmod]

Much of the 'controversy' can be solved if you look at the actual FRA materials and understand govspeak while you do.

It may help some of you to think of the FRA as being like a list moderator.  The FRA's intent (and mandate) is to preserve SAFETY.  They make the very immediate point that the railroads get to define 'most' of what that safety is, via their own internal procedures.  Only if some aspect of safety is absolutely involved do the FRA minimums kick in.  (Of course, as with much other Federal-level action, statutory violations and strict scrutiny replace common-sense safety enforcement... but on balance the approach works.

English himself, of the FRA, makes the point that a railroad can determine its track class.  It is not difficult, though, to recognize that this does NOT have anything to do with curve and grade speed, but with absolute permissible safe speed.  If following Thomas's example a railroad wanted to put a piece of Class 1 track in the middle of an otherwise Class 5 main -- they can do it.  And yes, just as with the safety lights on SP equipment, once the railroad does this, the FRA will hold them to it.  But let's look a bit more closely at this.  What earthly reason would a railroad have to go all the way down to permissible levels of Class 1 rot on just the restricted section of its otherwise higher-maintained line?  But that's what Thomas is in essence saying is OK under "FRA rules" -- I think he is conflating slow orders or line restrictions set by the railroad operating department with enforceable maintenance statutes, which is wrong but not a sin.

No, the FRA doesn't ban torch-cut rail until it poses an unavoidable, direct danger, and even then it puts some weasel-wording in there to permit continued operation in a number of circumstances to remediate the issue.  If a railroad has stricter common-sense restrictions against torch-cutting, those will apply as being more safety-oriented than the FRA mandated minima.  In my opinion yes, in case of accident you can torch-cut rails in a pinch if you need to insert a piece of emergency rail -- you can keep it there, too, as long as you understand that in no circumstances can you run faster than 20mph over it before you take it out.  (Again, to me, that's a form of common sense).

If you don't believe me, go look at the new section on Class 6 track, where torch cutting isn't outright banned.  There is a little ambiguity here (probably intentional, although I wish it would be disambiguated) about whether torch-cut emergency rail is permissible after the date given, but I think it was the intent to permit it in a Class 6 repair... so long as you treated the area of the 'repair' as if it were Class 2 or 1 with respect to speed until you get the torch-cut section remediated.

Heck, the FRA even has language in their training manual about who gets to authorize operation over a pull-apart or broken rail to clear an emergency!  THAT is far more "objectionable" (to anyone with common sense) than torching a replacement section, or holes for temporary joint bars, if all you can wrestle to an accident site along with the bars and bolts is a gas axe.

Just don't go claiming you can, or should, leave those joints in place, let alone use torching as a general method in regular track construction, just because the absolute safety rules don't say not to in so many words!  Cut 'em out, grind out the HAZ, use a rail saw for a cleaner end before thermiting... whatever.  Necessity or expedience may have me spray goop and petroleum distillate propellant into a flat tire.  Law doesn't prohibit it.  But I don't need a Federal manual to recognize that I should get that tire replaced... and take out the expedient means that causes maintenance headaches if you leave it untouched 'just because it worked at the time' or was cheap...

RME

[Thomas 9011]

 

edblysard

Deggesty

edblysard

• I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

???

What in the world have you been sniffing?

Ed, my question may not be germane to the basic topic of this thread, but just what determines the class of a given track?

Johnny,

The overall condition of the track and roadbed, and its maintenance schedule and records are the determining factors.

The speed limits are part of the CFR, based on what that class of track can handle, not the other way around.

Class 4 track or any class track for that matter, can have speed restriction placed in areas where work is needed or being done, or there is an issue found through regular inspection….the existence of tunnels and curves has no bearing on the track classification, but may have a bearing on the speed limit the railroad chooses to run at in that given area.

 

Wrong again. " the existence of tunnels and curves has no bearing on the track classification"? Are you kidding me?

 FRA rule 213.9  

"...The initial speed of any track is based on the design characteristics of the track".

 Design characteristics would include tunnels, bridges, grades, and curves.

 If the maximum allowed safe speed around a curve, or bridge, is 15 or 20 mph with out the locomotive or train derailing, then it would be illegal and dangerous to label that stretch of railroad a class 3 and above because you are exceeding the maximum safe speed for that track. If Amtrak said " We need to go from Denver to Winter park on at least class 3 track (60mph) ". Telling them to take the Moffat route would be flat out suicide. Although there are stretches that might be able to run class 3, Once you get into tunnel country you are probably going to be running on class 2 track.

 I know you believe that you can have a class 4 track and simply just put speed restrictions where there is curves and the train will just slow down until the curve has passed and the whole time the train was on class 4 track . But the reality is once that maximum speed is changed, the class of track changes as well. The entire purpose of labeling track classes is to keep trains under a certain speed for safety.

 The FRA rule book specifically address this by telling us that although a passenger train maybe authorized for a class 3 track at 60mph, the speed on a curve is going to be significantly less then the 60 mph. So not only are they seconding that maximum speed limit for that class of track. They are also saying not only will you not exceed that speed limit, they are also giving you more rules for curves that are even more restrictive then the class of track you are on.

There is a great deal written about curves and how the play into determining what class of track that is...

 213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits..

"As described in paragraph (a), the maximum allowable operating speed for each class of track is shown in the table. However, the maximum allowable operating speed on a curve is limited by the geometry parameters contained in § 213.57(b) [Unbalance] and § 213.59(a) [Superelevation]. For example, a speed for a passenger train based on the elevation at a curve may be only 18 mph, even though the track may otherwise comply with a higher class".

Under the FRA regulations you will find that curves play such a big role in rail classification that the radius of a curve DEFINES what the class of track will be on that curve. Read sections...

213.57 Curves; elevation and speed limitations and  213.55 Alinement

 It is also more efficient to say "the first 10 miles into this canyon is class 1 track, and then after the 10 miles it turns into class 2 track". Instead of saying " this curve is 15 mph, the next one is 20 mph, Tunnel #1 is 15mph, tunnel #2 is 10mph, tunnel #3 is 15mph, bridge #6 is 10mph. It is much easier just to label a certain stretch of track with a maximum speed restriction. 

 I can only fathom to think what kind of railroad you would be running. You might want to stop while you are still ahead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[Murphy Siding]

Thomas 9011

 

edblysard

Deggesty

edblysard

• I also found you gave a rather poor example of the classes of track. You can have brand new track that are labeled class one and class two track due to speed restrictions (such as the many tunnels and tight curves on the moffat route). Assuming that the track is in horrible shape due to speed restrictions is false.

 

???

What in the world have you been sniffing?

Ed, my question may not be germane to the basic topic of this thread, but just what determines the class of a given track?

Johnny,

The overall condition of the track and roadbed, and its maintenance schedule and records are the determining factors.

The speed limits are part of the CFR, based on what that class of track can handle, not the other way around.

Class 4 track or any class track for that matter, can have speed restriction placed in areas where work is needed or being done, or there is an issue found through regular inspection….the existence of tunnels and curves has no bearing on the track classification, but may have a bearing on the speed limit the railroad chooses to run at in that given area.

 

Wrong again. " the existence of tunnels and curves has no bearing on the track classification"? Are you kidding me?

 FRA rule 213.9  

"...The initial speed of any track is based on the design characteristics of the track".

 Design characteristics would include tunnels, bridges, grades, and curves.

 If the maximum allowed safe speed around a curve, or bridge, is 15 or 20 mph with out the locomotive or train derailing, then it would be illegal and dangerous to label that stretch of railroad a class 3 and above because you are exceeding the maximum safe speed for that track. If Amtrak said " We need to go from Denver to Winter park on at least class 3 track (60mph) ". Telling them to take the Moffat route would be flat out suicide. Although there are stretches that might be able to run class 3, Once you get into tunnel country you are probably going to be running on class 2 track.

 I know you believe that you can have a class 4 track and simply just put speed restrictions where there is curves and the train will just slow down until the curve has passed and the whole time the train was on class 4 track . But the reality is once that maximum speed is changed, the class of track changes as well. The entire purpose of labeling track classes is to keep trains under a certain speed for safety.

 The FRA rule book specifically address this by telling us that although a passenger train maybe authorized for a class 3 track at 60mph, the speed on a curve is going to be significantly less then the 60 mph. So not only are they seconding that maximum speed limit for that class of track. They are also saying not only will you not exceed that speed limit, they are also giving you more rules for curves that are even more restrictive then the class of track you are on.

There is a great deal written about curves and how the play into determining what class of track that is...

 213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits..

"As described in paragraph (a), the maximum allowable operating speed for each class of track is shown in the table. However, the maximum allowable operating speed on a curve is limited by the geometry parameters contained in § 213.57(b) [Unbalance] and § 213.59(a) [Superelevation]. For example, a speed for a passenger train based on the elevation at a curve may be only 18 mph, even though the track may otherwise comply with a higher class".

Under the FRA regulations you will find that curves play such a big role in rail classification that the radius of a curve DEFINES what the class of track will be on that curve. Read sections...

213.57 Curves; elevation and speed limitations and  213.55 Alinement

 It is also more efficient to say "the first 10 miles into this canyon is class 1 track, and then after the 10 miles it turns into class 2 track". Instead of saying " this curve is 15 mph, the next one is 20 mph, Tunnel #1 is 15mph, tunnel #2 is 10mph, tunnel #3 is 15mph, bridge #6 is 10mph. It is much easier just to label a certain stretch of track with a maximum speed restriction. 

 I can only fathom to think what kind of railroad you would be running. You might want to stop while you are still ahead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

   To every rule, there is an exception.  To every regulation, there is a clarification.  That's why it's most common to defer to people with experience in the industry.  Those with experience cutting rail in scrapyards with torches may be lacking in the expertise required to make those clarifications.

[Anonymous]

Well this is interesting.  Now we have a second technical question about whether track class can depend on curvature.  Setting aside the issue about the credentials of the people providing the information, what is the truth behind this track class question?

[tree68]

Thomas 9011

 It is also more efficient to say "the first 10 miles into this canyon is class 1 track, and then after the 10 miles it turns into class 2 track". Instead of saying " this curve is 15 mph, the next one is 20 mph, Tunnel #1 is 15mph, tunnel #2 is 10mph, tunnel #3 is 15mph, bridge #6 is 10mph. It is much easier just to label a certain stretch of track with a maximum speed restriction. 

 I can only fathom to think what kind of railroad you would be running. You might want to stop while you are still ahead.

The type of railroad they would be running would be a Class 1, because that happens all the time.   And my highlight of your statement is exactly what they do, but they don't do it by changing the class of the track - they do it via timetable instructions.

The tracks are built to the specified class.  A special feature (curve, etc) causes a permanant speed restriction to be placed on that feature.   A line that is a straight as an arrow for miles may pass through a congested area where a lower speed is advisable.  You're suggesting that said track is now a lower class?  I don't think so.  The track is capable of the max speed for the class to which it was built. 

The railroad in that case would have decided that due to environmental considerations, the max speed should be lower.  And that is completely within the federal regs.

A railroad may decide that because of an infusion of money, they're going to surface their Class 2 track to Class 4 standards, so it can slowly deteriorate back to Class 2 (saving them money on maintenance).  Even though their timetable may indicate Class 2 speeds, the track is still Class 4 (at least for a while).

Your book learnin' is coming up a bit short, here.  Not to mention that you're confusing operational considerations with construction considerations.

[edblysard]

From “Ask Trains”

Link to this…

http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Track%20classifications.aspx

 

“Classification of specific segments is determined by each railroad. "While there are standards that must be met for each classification, the only thing that determines the class is (maximum permissible) speed," says English. "You might have a perfect piece of high-speed railroad and, for some reason, elect to operate it at 10 mph. Therefore, that track would be Class 1." A decision to upgrade to a higher classification is solely a railroad's.”

Railroads often “overbuild” tracks for the simple reason maintenance becomes less of an issue.

My railroad has class 3 tracks everywhere, but we can only operate at restricted speed because we work under RTC and DTC in dark territory.

We have higher stands for our track because that means the wear and tear take longer to occur, cost less to repair and maintain, (delayed trains cost money) and the commodities we haul are mostly hazardous material.

So, while we have track that can handle much higher speeds, we choose not to run at that speed.

(See Tree’s post above)

The flip side is our track structure last longer than would be expected.

If a railroad decides to upgrade its track class, they of course can, provided they meet or exceed the engineering standards for that class of track.

Operating speed limits are set by the characteristics of the trains and type of traffic that use a given segment of track, based on the ability of the physical plant to support such traffic.

Thomas fails to understand (or is being intentionally obtuse) that railroads are allowed to create more restrictive rules than the CFR…his touch cutting may be allowed under the CFR, but under UP’s rules, it is forbidden.

And because UP’s rules forbid it, if the FRA catches it being done, they fine the UP.

I have both a BNSF and UP timetable and special instructions book, required here because we operate on their tracks and sometime use their equipment, and in both of those, and my railroads timetable, I can not find a single word about track class…on the other hand, all three have both permanent speed restrictions on certain locations, bridges and such.

Nowhere in either the BNSF or a UP timetable will you find anything such as…”From mile post 123.6 to milepost 220.4 the track is class 4…”, you will, on the other hand, find phrases such as…”From milepost 123.6 to milepost 220.4 maximum permissible speed is 40 mph for  freight trains…”

And yes, what you did for UP, if you did anything at all, does speak to your crediability, or lack there of...

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Bucyrus

Well this is interesting.  Now we have a second technical question about whether track class can depend on curvature.  Setting aside the issue about the credentials of the people providing the information, what is the truth behind this track class question?

"Chicken-or-egg" type issue - at best - and giving Thomas 9011 the benefit of the doubt. 

More generally, this is an analysis with several inputs leading to a single result or a conclusion - and the question is which input is the "most important" or has priority.  Most reasonable people agree on a common structure or framework for this, but it's not 'written in stone', and other 'takes' are possible, though confusing.

- Paul North.