Amtrak (NC)'s Piedmont strikes tractor-trailer in Mebane, NC

[Norm48327]

After the dust settles and the lawsuits are done, I see a trucking company going out of business.

[Euclid]

What I am wondering about is the amount of time allowed to get the train stopped.  It seems to me that these oversize, heavy haul, loads would have a relatively high probability of getting stuck on the crossing.  And if they do get stuck, it is likely to require a relatively large amount of time to get the truck clear of the crossing.  So I can see why there should be a requirement for the movers to notify the railroad company when they intend to cross.

So, let’s say the truck pulls up to the crossing and the crew notifies the railroad that they want to cross.  Once the railroad says okay, the only way to stop trains in case of a problem is to call the railroad.  Considering the possibility of the phone not getting answered immediately, or other loss of time in getting the message to the train, it seems to me that the okay to cross should not be given if the train is quite close.  For instance giving the okay to cross when the train is only five minutes away would be foolhardy.  A half-hour interval would be prudent. 

It seems to me that the most prudent thing to do would be to give the okay for the truck to cross, and at the same time, tell all trains to approach the crossing prepared to stop.  Then, after the truck clears the crossing, cancel the order for trains to prepare to stop short of the crossing.

If everything goes normally, the truck will be over the crossing in less than a minute.  But if the truck gets stuck, at least there will be failsafe mechanism in place to make sure that a failure warning will not result in a crash.  That is the way I would do it.    

You can say this is unacceptable because slowing down the trains will tie up the railroad.  But if the truck gets across normally, the slow order will be lifted before it affects any trains.  And if the truck gets stuck on the crossing, and if trains are not approaching prepared to stop, and if time is too short to warn the train—then the train hits the truck and ties up the railroad, doing a lot of damage, and possibly killing people. 

[ACY Tom]

With all due respect, Euclid, I don't think your idea is failsafe.

This business of instructing the T&E crew to be "prepared to stop" seems a bit foolish to me.  Doesn't it make more sense to tell the T&E crew where to stop, and inform them that they have NO permission AT ALL to move their train beyond that point until the DS informs them that the obstruction is gone.  I don't suppose the railroad would be able to charge the trucker a fee for disruption of their operations in most cases; but it seems that extensive delays should only be allowed at a hefty price to the trucker.  I don't know the legal issues involved. 

Tom

[tree68]

Two words - foul time.

If I'm going to foul the track, I get foul time per the rules.  The DS will give me that time and prohibit any other occupancy.

If this shipment was going to cross the tracks multiple times, perhaps a railroad employee should have accompanied the movement as well.  He (or she) could have been in contact with the DS to verify start and finish of the foul time.

There are other approaches, as has been noted.  Regardless of the method used, the shipment would have had exclusive use of that portion of the track, with trains held at appropriate locations, as necessary.

[Euclid]

Tom,

I think I am saying essentially the same thing that you are saying.  I don’t follow your distinction between telling a train to stop short of a point versus telling a train not to pass a point.  When I say “prepare to stop,” I would specify the point which must be stopped short of. 

When I say it is failsafe, I mean that the rail traffic is being held back from the crossing while the truck is passing over it.  Conversely, letting the rail traffic have normal running authority during the time the truck is crossing, except if someone calls the railroad and has the dispatcher take that running authority away seems completely ill advised. 

The point is that crossing with a special move like that cannot just rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning.  So I asked how much warning was needed.  I was told that the warning must be no closer than the closest control point because that is the last opportunity for the dispatcher to stop the train.  I understand that, but if the closest control point is just around the curve, and I think it is way too close. 

As I said, I think at least 30 minutes would be prudent.  That way, if the truck starts across and hangs up, there is 30 minutes to contact the dispatcher and get the train stopped.  That would not be what I call failsafe, but 30 minutes is reasonably prudent.  But the failsafe method would be to lock out rail traffic before the truck starts across, and don’t unlock it until the truck is in the clear.

I don’t understand the comments about the highway patrol bearing responsibility because he failed to contact the dispatcher when the train was only 25 seconds away.  What am I missing there?

[tree68]

Bucky - Go back and read Balt's and my posts.  There are established procedures - nay, RULES - for dealing with such situations.  No need to re-invent the wheel.

There is no set time frame.  If there will be a known fouling of the tracks, the crew will be notified well ahead of time, via a track warrant, EC-1, Form B, or whatever means a given railroad uses to convey such information.

The railroad may choose to take the track out of service, or establish work limits, with a foreman or flagman on site.  Trains will then contact whoever is in charge (as included on the BO, TW, or whatever) for permission to pass.  And they will approach the limits prepared to stop.  That limit could be a milepost - it doesn't have to be a signal or CP.

With radios, this can be done "on the fly."  It's done every day, in fact.

Remember, too, that CPs are part of the signal system.  A train is not likely to come around a curve at speed and find a stop signal in their face.  Barring a bona fide emergency, the DS would not do that.  So a given train will get three or four signals with progressively restricting aspects as they approach the stop.  

That it appears that the railroad was never notified tends to say that no one considered the possibility of fouling the crossing for any more time than what it would normally take for a vehicle to cross.  Had this incident not involved a turn, we likely would not be discussing it.

In fact, it's possible that similar trucks have made the same transit without incident, which might explain why the planner didn't find it necessary to notify the railroad.

We can fault the trooper for not calling immediately, but I'm sure a goodly number of us have encountered a glitch in a project that will "just take a moment" to resolve, and ends up taking far more than that.  In fact, I believe he made a comment to a motorist to the effect that it wasn't necessary to call the railroad.  I'm sure all involved thought the truck was going to make it "this time."

Hindsight is almost always 20-20.  I'm sure that all involved will consider this a lesson learned, and new policies and procedures for such oversize movements will be forthcoming.

[Euclid]

Apparently there is a requirement to contact the railroad before crossing with a special permitted load, thus allowing the railroad to control rail traffic if the truck gets stuck on the crossing.  Most of the news fails to mention this, but instead focuses on a need to call the railroad after the truck got stuck.

I know of two similar crashes at Intercession City, Fl., and the reports cite that responsibility to notify the railroad before crossing.     

 

 

[csxns]

Wonder if this load could went by rail.

[zugmann]

Euclid

The point is that crossing with a special move like that cannot just rely on the 25-second crossing signal warning. So I asked how much warning was needed. I was told that the warning must be no closer than the closest control point because that is the last opportunity for the dispatcher to stop the train. I understand that, but if the closest control point is just around the curve, and I think it is way too close. As I said, I think at least 30 minutes would be prudent. That way, if the truck starts across and hangs up, there is 30 minutes to contact the dispatcher and get the train stopped. That would not be what I call failsafe, but 30 minutes is reasonably prudent. But the failsafe method would be to lock out rail traffic before the truck starts across, and don’t unlock it until the truck is in the clear.

 

I've dealt with stuff like this when I was in the DS hot seat.  Foreman Smith calls and says he needs to cross the tracks with his bucket loader.  If nothing is coming, I could put blocks on the tracks (which prevented me from lining a train through there), and let him across.  2 minutes.   If there's a train in the same block, then Mr. Smith is going to have to wait until it passes.

 

Maybe there's a slop freight 2 blocks away.  I don't wan tthem to have to slow down for an approach and stop, so they probably will get to go through before Mr. Smith.  He may have to wait 15 minutes. 

 

If there's a UPS train 30 minutes away, then Mr. Smith may have to wait 30 minutes.  Beucase there's no way I want to explain to the chief that the UPS train is now stuck becuase Mr. Smith's piece of crap wheel loader broke down, blocking the main. The trains only can run as far as they are lined up/instructed.  The dispatcher lines them up.  So there is no magical number of minutes needed. 

 

On the railroad line, the dispatcher is God.  (S)He controls all. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Aren't the time impositions on the DS and crew to set up and release a Track Warrant or foul time, Form B, etc. a lot more than just using the signals at CP to control / stop any movements through the crossing that's involved ?

[BaltACD]

csxns

Wonder if this load could went by rail.

 

Not at 16 feet wide.

[BaltACD]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Aren't the time impositions on the DS and crew to set up and release a Track Warrant or foul time, Form B, etc. a lot more than just using the signals at CP to control / stop any movements through the crossing that's involved ?

 

Depends upon what specific kind of authority has been authorized.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

If the railroad was notified when the truck was 30 minutes away, that would be 10 miles if the truck was moving at 20 MPH.  A lot can happen in that 10 miles to delay the truck - and hence the railroad - which would not be appreciated from a cooperation standpoint. ("Stab the UPS train ?!?")

- Paul North. 

[BaltACD]

Paul_D_North_Jr

If the railroad was notified when the truck was 30 minutes away, that would be 10 miles if the truck was moving at 20 MPH.  A lot can happen in that 10 miles to delay the truck - and hence the railroad - which would not be appreciated from a cooperation standpoint. ("Stab the UPS train ?!?")

- Paul North.

When dealing with MofW for track occupancy or protection - don't tell the Dispatcher when you 'anticipate' you are 30 minutes from the location - tell him when you are THERE and occupancy or protection will be implemented as necessary AT THAT TIME, based upon what is taking place on the territory at the time.  That 30 minutes on the highway could turn into an hour or more with some incident that you are not in control of.

The same caveats apply to a outside party wanting protection for crossing over the track at a road crossing with a oversized load.  Waiting whatever time is required to get PROTECTION outweighs having the load bisected by a train, for both the railroad and the shipper of the load.

[tree68]

Paul_D_North_Jr

If the railroad was notified when the truck was 30 minutes away, that would be 10 miles if the truck was moving at 20 MPH.  A lot can happen in that 10 miles to delay the truck - and hence the railroad - which would not be appreciated from a cooperation standpoint. ("Stab the UPS train ?!?")

- Paul North. 

This is why you might well see a railroad employee at the site.  Trains are notified that Employee X has control of the track between Y and Z.  On approach, they call for clearance from some distance out (whatever the radios will allow).  If the truck isn't there yet (or isn't already fouling the track), they get permission through, probably at maximum allowable speed.  If the truck is there, and is fouling the track when they call, they'll stop at the established limit until cleared by Employee X.

Simple.  Done every day for various situations.

The other option (no employee on site) has already been mentioned.  Escort calls the DS, who puts up appropriate blocks, then lets them cross.  When they're clear of the crossing, they call back and the DS lifts the blocks.

In either case, any train that would otherwise get "stabbed" would likely be allowed to pass before the crossing was made.

[Phoebe Vet]

...and again: 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article34683495.html 

Yet another truck driver thought the train would swerve.

"Amtrak spokeswoman Kimberly Woods said 267 passengers were on the Carolinian, which travels daily between Charlotte and New York City, when it hit the vehicle Thursday in Pleasant Hill near the Virginia line..."

[blue streak 1]

Phoebee:

267 passengers  --  godd load probably 5 - 1/2 Amfleet - 2 car loads.

Waiting for updates from you.

Have you heard anything about the earlier Carolinian that hit the oversize load ?  We have been wondering disposition of the various items of that accident.

 

[BaltACD]

AP story made it seem like the writer was disappointed that there wasn't a derailment and injuries - 2/3's of the article was on the incident 6 months ago hitting the modular building.

[tree68]

BaltACD

AP story made it seem like the writer was disappointed that there wasn't a derailment and injuries...

If it bleeds, it leads...  No carnage, no story.

[Phoebe Vet]

blue streak 1

Phoebee:

267 passengers  --  godd load probably 5 - 1/2 Amfleet - 2 car loads.

Waiting for updates from you.

Have you heard anything about the earlier Carolinian that hit the oversize load ?  We have been wondering disposition of the various items of that accident.

 

The last I heard, Amtrack was suing the trucking company:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/05/01/amtrak-sues-n-c-trucking-firm-over-crash.htm 

 

[matthewsaggie]

267 is actually a pretty average load, especially on a weekday, considering that there are only a little over 340 total seats. On weekends I have seen many sell outs out of Raleigh. The peak is usually between Fredricksburg and Quantico. 

 

While railfanning this this route by car several weeks ago, I drove through this location and thought that it was not a safe design. I would hope that VDOT takes a look at it now.