"Hobbist or Terrorist?" in Time Magazine

[espeefoamer]

Edblysard, I'm with you 100%!

[edblysard]

On the other hand, I also agree with Dan H, it is much better to win their hearts and minds.

If there was a way to lead them to the conclusion that some form of democratic goverment benefits them, that would be my choice.

But, these people have been at war, in some shape, form or fashion, since the begining of recorded time, so...

Personally, if they want to kill each other over their differences in religion, thats fine with me, as long as they keep the fight in their own countries.

But, they chose to bring the fight here, and as far as I am concerned, its time to return the favor, several times over.

The mess at the Iraq prision is a classic example of what can go wrong when you occupy a country.

Shame on the commander who allowed it to go on, shame on the goverment for allowing such tactics to be employeed, shame on the CIA.

Remember, we told them we were the good guys, right?
And wasnt that type of toture and abuse exactly what we were supposed to be rescueing them from?

I am sure quite a few of them can only conclude that they traded one tyrant for another, newer one.

Propaganda?
Sure, but the only difference between propaganda and history is the winners get to call it history.

And what our goverment is selling on the evening news, well, a rose by any other name...

What "history" do we get to write about this mess?
What valor and honor can we show the world, how can we justify these actions, degrading these men in such a fashion?
We won, remember?

Or did we?

Ed

[halifaxcn]

My opinion of the situation is that under the present administration
and the so called Patriot Act, many civil liberties as stated in the
Constitution are being trampled on. If you railfan in a responsible
manner and conduct yourself accordingly, than you have nothing to
worry about. You need to start worrying when everyone caves in to the
present mind set of Homeland and national security. It's akin to
locking the barn after the horse has run out. If we stop even for a
moment in doing what we like when we like, then we have lost and the
bad guys have won. It's that simple; defend the many freedoms that so
many have fought and died for, or cave in and give these up and live
a life of fear.

The article in TIME, is well written and may help the public to understand what
the hobby is about.

That being sad I agree that we should hit back at the enemy, I think the term that I am looking for is "Carpet Bombing". My father, uncles, including one killed in France are rolling over in their graves at what is happening in this Country. In the imortal words of President John F. Kennedy: "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world".

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty".

Never in our history, have these words spoken more than 40 years ago taken on such re-newed meaning.

Regards,
Frank San Severino
CP-198 Amtrak's NEC
Attleboro, MA.

[edblysard]

Well said, Mr. Severino, well said...

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Well said, Mr. Severino, well said...

The only way to deal with terrorists is diplomacy......in 2000 lb increments.

[tree68]

The only problem with carpet bombing the terrorists is that we would level significant portions of our own country. Terrorism, despite its ties to specific places, is a decentralized operation. There are cells around the US (which are being watched, to be sure) located in otherwise nondescript neighborhoods in nondescript small towns throughout the country...

As long as party A believes they are entitled to what party B has, there will be problems. This is not to be compared with party A wanting[/] what party B has. If Lucy [i]wants her little brother's stuffed bear, she'll do what she can to get it, but faces rebuff from others, since the bear is clearly little brother's, not hers. On the other hand, if she feels entitled to it (it was her turn for a gift from grams, not little brothers), she may have the support of others (Mom agrees, Dad sides with little brother). That's when things get interesting.

[Anonymous]

My guess is that a dedicated saboteur or "terrorist" does not need to take pictures to figure out a nice juicy target. They can get all the data they need just by reading posts on the Internet... or by a one month, off the newstand issue of Trains. For example, last month I got to read all about the Hell's Gate bridge, complete with wonderful photographs, professionally taken, and structural information. During World War II the Germans landed two teams of saboteurs... and part of their mission included railroad sabotage. (One of their targets was, I believe, Horseshoe Curve.) They didn't do recconnaiscance beforehand to know what was vulnerable. They knew already. It was fortunate that they got caught before they had a chance to do anything.

On the other hand, the Germans during WW II had a pretty efficient security system over the railroads. Yards were fenced off and access was restricted. The tracks were heavily patrolled. Bridges were guarded. There were huge organizations within the German Army dedicated to keeping the railroads in running condition. All that was defeated by the French resistance right before D-Day, with a lot of help by the Air Force.

I don't need to take pictures of the NEC to determine when and where a train is going to be at a certain point in time. All I have to do is go to the AMTRAK web page. Or SEPTA, or Metro North. During the first Gulf War I was getting ready to go to Saudi Arabia. I was on duty in a National Guard headquarters. One of my buddies there needed to know where a military shipment was that was going by rail. He knew I was a railfan. I picked up the phone, called the local tower, identified myself as an Army Captain (which I was at the time)... and got switched over to Southern Pacific's customer service representative, who told me where the shipment was right then (stuck in El Paso, sorry, the train's running late) and when I could expect the train to reach Tucson (around noon the next day.) I never went near the rails.

It took person (or persons) unknown a set of jumper cables and some heavy duty wrenches to derail the Sunset Limited outside Hyder, AZ not long after that. No one to this day knows who did it. Were they terrorists or vandals? No one knows. It's the very nature of railroads that you can't keep every inch of them under surveillance every second.

Railfans aren't the problem. The sad state of our transportation infrastructure is. It's cheaper and more visible to stick a security guard on a rail platform than to fix the real problem. If I can disrupt high speed passenger service on the NEC just by sticking a fake "bomb" on the tracks, how well can I do if I have real explosives? Will the Feds fund electrification of alternate routes? Nope. They are too busy funding security guards checking sneakers at airports. They are too busy determining how much pollution a locomotive emits rather than determining how important the cargo is that locomotive is pulling.

IMHO, the Feds are wasting time on "all show" and ignoring the real vulnerabilites of the railroads. It's cheaper to publicize how "security" is increased by hassling railfans. It's not so cheap to fix the embarrassing lack of infrastructure that makes the railroad so vulnerable in the first place.

Erik

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I agree with Erik in that information about railroad equipment and infrastructure are widely available especially with the internet. I further agree it's the railfan who gets hassled as was pointed out in the article in Time Magazine. However, Don Phillips made an important point in his article in June Trains following the train bombings in Madrid there is potential for overreacting.

[Anonymous]

Several months ago I was parked off the public road to watch the BNSF roll through Sugar Creek, MO and was asked to leave, not by the railroad, but by some men from the Missouri River terminal which is accross the street! They were very cordial about it, but made it plain they "can't have ya here, partner!". I specifically asked if this policy was related to the World Trade Center destruction and they said it was.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Personally, if they want to kill each other over their differences in religion, thats fine with me, as long as they keep the fight in their own countries.

But, they chose to bring the fight here, and as far as I am concerned, its time to return the favor, several times over.


Ed

Tough row to hoe since the USA remains intent upon "meddling" with support to Israel, and/or the incessant promotion of Globalization

It isn't like Osama Bin Laden just woke up one day and said "Lets see, there's gotta be some way to drag the USA into this".....we put ourselves into it in the form of policy we extend, LONG before 9/11.

In fact, 9/11 can be seen as "reactionary" in much the same way our Boston Tea party was reactionary

[edblysard]

Never said I was a fan of th US support of Israel, even though gramps was Jewish.
And talk about role reversal, you could substitute todays Jewish policy towards Palistine with the *** policy towards Jews in WWII.
Genocide is wrong, no mater whos the victim, or the aggressor.
Those fools may just start WWIII if their not careful.
As far as I am concerned, Israel can sink or swim on their own from here on out.
Granted, their fight, on the surface, seems to be about territory, and denying the Palastines a homeland, but count on it being as much a religious war as the rest of the mess in the middle east.

It still boils down to thinly veiled religious racisim.

Compairing 9/11 to the Boston Tea party is farfetched.

The Tea Party was a political statement agains a sovereign lord whos policy of excessive taxation and exclusionary importing rights were economical blackmail.

Pure economics, but it makes good revolutionary propaganda, especially if you win the revolution.

9/11 was a cowardly attack agains civilians, by a group of religious fanatics,intended to kill as many civilians as possible, to promote their religious jihad worldwide and win support from other religious fanatics.

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Never said I was a fan of th US support of Israel, even though gramps was Jewish.
And talk about role reversal, you could substitute todays Jewish policy towards Palistine with the *** policy towards Jews in WWII.
Genocide is wrong, no mater whos the victim, or the aggressor.
Those fools may just start WWIII if their not careful.
As far as I am concerned, Israel can sink or swim on their own from here on out.
Granted, their fight, on the surface, seems to be about territory, and denying the Palastines a homeland, but count on it being as much a religious war as the rest of the mess in the middle east.

It still boils down to thinly veiled religious racisim.

Compairing 9/11 to the Boston Tea party is farfetched.

The Tea Party was a political statement agains a sovereign lord whos policy of excessive taxation and exclusionary importing rights were economical blackmail.

Pure economics, but it makes good revolutionary propaganda, especially if you win the revolution.

9/11 was a cowardly attack agains civilians, by a group of religious fanatics,intended to kill as many civilians as possible, to promote their religious jihad worldwide and win support from other religious fanatics.

Ed

Yanno Ed, there is an admirable amount of open mindedness in your post[bow] and I don't want to give the mistaken impression that I endorse the acts of 9/11, cause I don't.

All I was saying is ,....look at it from THEIR perspective.. There is one grand influance behind most of the things causing grief in their world, ...the USA.

It is us who seeks to exploit their oil

It is us who supports christian missionary's who go to their land, build "schools" so that the first lesson we can teach their children is "hey, worship the same god as your parents and you will go to the land of eternal fire

And it is us who supports the state imposed seggregation (I still have problems understanding how we could not support the boy scouts due to bias, but can support Israel) of Israel against their fellow semites, and who has conducted ariel raids against Iraq.

WE are the reason *that* bunk flies over there, so it's no big surprise we became a target.

Now, those folks over there are left taking a flyswatter after a rhinocerous if forced to face the USA on "conventional" grounds, the imbalance of power is just too great. So, am I surprised that they have employed unconve ntional means....? No. if I thought my culture was threatened for it's very survival, I might rationalize similar tactics as opposed to "going down the tubes", which is how I think they have come to feel.

Or, as my dad put it years ago, "the one you need to fear is the one who feels he has nothing to lose" (fwiw)

[Allen Jenkins]

Well, I'm runnin' the Rat Hole, thanks to Pentrex, or I climb the Ashville to Spartenburg route to Saluda, North Carolina, thanks the world, and God bless, Bob & Harriet Loehne, I cabride the Clinchfield Railway, Cajon, and Beaumont, Pass, or review the "ultimate cabride," on the Norfolk Southern, Starting at the trainning center in McDonough, GA. Or Haul coal from Eastern Ky, through Haggin's Switchback, or dispatch trains through Atlanta, to Chattanooga, on TD2, or TD3, or the Rat Hole on NS, (Dan0ak Division), and with the neighbors I've experienced, who needs to worry about the Talabon?aj

[edblysard]

Agreed, it is scary to us to find out that, for them, dieing for their cause is a quick way into heaven, and from their point of view, we are the bad guys, but...

I leans more towards we being the major purchaser of their product, and their goverments, in colusion with the oil companies, exploiting their oil.

Look at it from this point, with the billions of dollars that flow out of the sand every day, should'nt there be a complete lack of poverty in those countries?

After all, if their goverment spread the wealth around, most of them would live in what we consider a upper middle class life style.

Their garbage men should all own Lexus SUVs.

Yet, their goverment, not the private individual, owns most of the land, and entered into legal contracts with Exxon, Dutch Royal Shell, BP, Mobile, Aramco( remember them, the ARab AMerican Oil Company?) to develope the fields.
Yes, we exported the equipment, technology, expertiese and the sicence, but they were the purchasers, I dont remember any of those companies forcing they way into Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq.
But I do remember them asking for and receiving help in exchange for rights to drill, develop and export.
We are the reason such wealth exsist there, their goverment, and it's policies, are the reason there is so much poverty.
Should we have intervened?
I dont know, should we intervene with the almost absolute poverty jasmine growers in India live in, because we buy the majority of the crop, or the slave like conditions diamond miners in Africa are subject to, because we buy most of the worlds diamonds?
So we buy most of the worlds crude oil production, this somehow make us responsible for the condition the selling goverments force their citizens to live in?
Other side of the coin, should Russia have the right to tell Archer Daniels Midland how to treat its employees, because they, Russia, purchase most of the grain ADM exports?

Impoverished people need someone to blame for their condition, and they never blame themselves,(and rightly so in a lot of instances) but their religious leaders, supported by their current goverments, have found that blaming the US is handy, and easy.
We do make good devils, in the rest of the worlds eyes, and our excesses in food, dress, luxerys, and the conspicious consumption we flaunt in the press and on TV make us even easier to hate, especially by those who have almost nothing to their name.

Ail M spends his entire life working as a roughneck in Aramco fields, for a couple of bucks a day, and finds out that what he produces fuels a country where a kid flipping burgers makes more then he will, and has insurance benefits to boot.
Does he get mad, or disenchanted?
You bet, and along comes a holy man who tells him exactly what he needs to hear to turn his disenchantment into raging anger.

Are we to blame for his goverments policy of exploiting its citizens, and retaining all the profits for itself?
Indirectly, maybe.
But the burden of improvershied isnt ours alone, wasnt created by us, and shouldnt be paid for by American citizens live's.
Its already been paid for by American dollars, when we bought the crude in the first place.
The distribution of the wealth created by our purchase isnt our problem, its theirs, they should blow up their goverments buildings, and take back what is theirs, instead of bombing our buildings, and demanding we force their own goverment to help them, or share what we have earned, or do away with one religion in favor of another!

Ed

[Anonymous]

Yanno Ed, I REALLY enjoy discussing this kinda stuff with you. It would be kicks to roll up with a case of Dr Pepper one day, and a case of whatever you drink, (I gave up on Alky personally 15 years ago) and just have a mind bender of a dialog.... I can be one chatty S.O.G. once I get that caffiene buzz goin'[:-,]

[edblysard]

Big pot of Folgers...
I routinely solve most of the worlds problems before 6:00 am, then add to the mess for the next 8 hours...ha ha ha...
Ed

[Anonymous]

It's true, some people get suspicious when they see someone on or near railroad property. There was a article in Trains Magazine sometime between 9/11 and now about how some railroads were stepping up security for their railroad. It said that some railroads were even giving tickets to railfans that weren't even tresspassing on railroad property which is a disgrace. The magazine also had a picture of a Sante-Fe Railroad policeman giving a train-watcher a ticket. If i'm standing on public property watching for trains and I get a ticket from the railroad, i'll be soo mad.

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bjk041089

It's true, some people get suspicious when they see someone on or near railroad property. There was a article in Trains Magazine sometime between 9/11 and now about how some railroads were stepping up security for their railroad. It said that some railroads were even giving tickets to railfans that weren't even tresspassing on railroad property which is a disgrace. The magazine also had a picture of a Sante-Fe Railroad policeman giving a train-watcher a ticket. If i'm standing on public property watching for trains and I get a ticket from the railroad, i'll be soo mad.

Contrary to what some of the RR police think, they have NO jurisdiction off RR property. Unless they see you on RR property, they cannot give you a ticket for trespassing. You just need to be sure where RR property actually begins. Legally all it takes is for you to step one inch onto RR property to be considered trespassing. If you get a ticket and are sure you were not on their property, then get a lawyer and fight it.

Derrick

[Jetrock]

I have no compunction about taking photos of trains from a public street--where I live there are plenty of great "hot spots" right on the sidewalk. I've never had any problem with police, and I spend a lot of time photographing buildings and trains in the middle of downtown...just luck, I guess, or I don't fit a "terrorist profile."

If I *did* see something suspicious going on, sure as heck I'd report it to the authorities! Nobody messes with MY nation's trains if I have something to say about it!

Of course non-railfans may think railfans are weird...personally I think it's incredibly weird that people spend so much time, effort and money to watch steroid-inflated morons chase balls around a field, but that's just me...

[Anonymous]

Is there a web site for the NJT permit talked about in earlier posts? If so could some one post it?[:D]

[Anonymous]

With all these railroads chasing the railfans away they are hurting themselves. They are hurting themselves because....1. If they chase all of us away there wont be anyone in the future years who are going to be working for the railroad who actully love their jobs. The second reason is when some one calls vandalism or anything in to the RR police, who reports it most of the time....RAILFANS. So maybe (hopefully) someday these RR cops and workers will get it through their heads.

[adrianspeeder]

QUOTE: I work Nuclear Security for probably the country's most famous Nuclear Power Plant (TMI). We are located 2 miles from a major airport, and a rail line runs through our property (with a spur into the plant for construction/repairs).

I thank you for your service Dave M, as i see you workplace everytime i look out my front window. As much as i hate a police state, it would be a real shame if somebody got in and screwed around with the plant causing me and half of PA unreverseable harm.

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

One time while not railfanning I was stopped by the police after crossing some tracks to just sit and throw rocks in the water. I asked the officer whatr the problem was and stated there were terrorist threats against railroads. I called him Barney Fife and told him to go solve a real crime. His view was seriously distorted in the paronoia and histeria after 9/11. He didn't like any of my answers and the only thing that got me off the hook was my military ID.

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

QUOTE: I work Nuclear Security for probably the country's most famous Nuclear Power Plant (TMI). We are located 2 miles from a major airport, and a rail line runs through our property (with a spur into the plant for construction/repairs).

I thank you for your service Dave M, as i see you workplace everytime i look out my front window. As much as i hate a police state, it would be a real shame if somebody got in and screwed around with the plant causing me and half of PA unreverseable harm.

Adrianspeeder

Do you live in the Middletown area, or the other side of the river? I can assure you there will be no screwing around with the plant... there's a lot of things the public never sees or hears about, but I can assure you we are probably the best defended plant in the country. The news reports never get it right, even when we allowed them onto the island and showed them some of the stuff, it was still never reported right. And of course, we never showed them even half of what was there! [;)]