jfallon wrote: I just got three of the "made in China" kits, the label says "with metal wheels" but they are the old plastic ones. Perhaps they should have printed them in Chinese so they would know what to put in the box!
I just got three of the "made in China" kits, the label says "with metal wheels" but they are the old plastic ones. Perhaps they should have printed them in Chinese so they would know what to put in the box!
What a mess.
Does the new China kits have the same parts as the older blue box or are they disassembled versions of today's RTR car offerings?
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
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rrebell wrote:you have to remember, japan used to be the place for cheap labor, then korea, now china. The thing I don't understand is why they haven't moved production to africa, an area that makes china labor look very expencive. Me I don't mind china products, sure their goverment dose things I don't like, dosen't our own?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
BRAKIE wrote: No..There is still lots of industrial jobs.Easy enough to check..Ask your employment office or do a on line job search under manufacturing.
No..There is still lots of industrial jobs.Easy enough to check..Ask your employment office or do a on line job search under manufacturing.
Come take a drive around Tn. and see how wrong your statement is. If you ever wanted to model a ghost town, then Tn. is your prototype.
You can blame the jobs going overseas on the EPA, soaring insurance premiums, ridiculas lawyers and their lawsuits, and over bearing Government regulation. How many of these things do the Chinese (or Mexico) have to deal with?? ZERO! Zip,ziltch, nada! You can't blame it on the "overpaid" American worker anymore. We are a dieing breed.
I'm not one for communism or socialism, but somethings wrong when we have CEO's getting paid $15 million/year to run a company into bankruptcy and then getting a golden parachute when they are forced out of their jobs. What do you think would happen to those same people in China?
Totally off topic: Men's clothing that is made right here in the midwest is the best that money can buy. Allen Edmonds shoes are by far the best quality you can find. Most people get ten years or more with heavy use. Hart Schaffner & Marx suits are considered the work horse of mens clothing. Yes they are around $700, but they will look like new five years from now. Show me a suit made in china that can do that!
It is hard to buy "Amercian" though. More and more foreign cars are made in the U.S. . More American cars are made in Canada and Mexico. Even American companies are owned by foreign investers. Welcome to the global economy!
wgnrr wrote: WCfan wrote: grayfox1119 wrote: Keep the jobs in America you say? OK, do you want to pay $600 for a plastic locomotive, $100 for a basic box car? Not real you say? Ohh yes it is....after you factor in the "American worker" salary, with his/her company paid benefits, and the higher cost to the comapny for taxes, heating, water, sewer, etc. etc. Why do you think that the Big Three auto makers in the country have one foot in the grave and the other foot on a banana peel? The higher cost of doing business in America ( company paid benefits that foreign workers do not have, sorry, but that is the way it is, deal with it )Think about THIS. Let's say you worked for a company. They pulled out ALL there factorys to China. You lost your job. It was a good paying job, with good benfits, and a great enviroment. And you lost it. Lets say all the Banks, Hospitals, Gas stations, Fast Food, ect. where full whit people looking for a job. Even the LHS has closed up for online severice. Where you going to get a new job. Oh yeah that's right, you can't, because every thing went to China. So your choice? Good job, or unimployment? Also, do you want stuff that falls apart after the second time you use it, or do you want somthing that last forever? There's a balance, it's ok to have stuff made in China, but not all of it. way, deal with it.BTW: Think about this. Every time you buy an American made product, it save some one here a job. Now just think, that might be your job? There's a balance, It's ok to have things made in China, but not ALL of it.I'm sorry, but foreign products are almost always higher quality products than American made products. I own a 1990 Toyota pick-up, that has 260,000 miles on it. The truck was made in Japan. It has never had a major problem with the motor or transmission, and the motor is solid.On the other hand, my friend had a 1998 Ford pick-up. It has 125,000, and has everything wrong with it. It had the tranmission blow out twice, alternator belt holder snapped off after 25,000, piston cracked and ruined the crankcase, and the paint was faded sooo bad, you could not tell it was a dark blue. So, what happened?The Toyota has a excelent engine, that can literally last forever. The American-made Ford is not good for more than 150,000 miles before major problems can happen. Ford used a cheap paint that fades after a period. My cherry red Toyota is just as cherry red as it was in 1990.Most Asian countries, such as Japan, had to start their economies from scratch after WWII. They were able to engineer things much better than the US did when they were developed. I was watching a show on TV about shipyards. The 6 American shipyards are not efficent, as they take more time and people to make a boat than a foreign country can. I heard that it takes 5 times more people to make a boat in the US than it does overseas.Why did Overland, and other brass model makers make their models in Japan? Because there was no quality place in America to make their models, and Japan and other companies could compete, and produce a higher quality model, at less the cost.Athearn BB kits were always a pain in the you know where to build correctly. The coupler boxes would warp, the wheels, would be out of gauge, ect.On the other hand...Atlas--Smooth runner, good detail. Made where? CHINA!Rapido Trains--High Quality, not made in USAthearn Gennesis, RTR--Motors are the same, but the detail is excelent.I had to buy some picture frames for posters I bought, and I first bought them at Wal-Mart. They were plastic, and made in the USA. They were the crappiest things ever! They were broken everywhere, ends were smashed, plexi-glass scratched, and the thing was in a box! I returned it, and went to K-Mart. I bought some that were wood-construction, new, and high quality for less of the price. They were made in Taiwan. Just goes to show that USA products are not always high quality.So, I would definatly stay away from saying that American made products are better than US products. Yes, there will be a few exceptions.Maybe we are doing American companies a favor by showing them that their stuff is junk, and we won't buy it unless they step up their quality. Who cares if they go out of business or move to China-In the long run, it will be better for the company.Phil
WCfan wrote: grayfox1119 wrote: Keep the jobs in America you say? OK, do you want to pay $600 for a plastic locomotive, $100 for a basic box car? Not real you say? Ohh yes it is....after you factor in the "American worker" salary, with his/her company paid benefits, and the higher cost to the comapny for taxes, heating, water, sewer, etc. etc. Why do you think that the Big Three auto makers in the country have one foot in the grave and the other foot on a banana peel? The higher cost of doing business in America ( company paid benefits that foreign workers do not have, sorry, but that is the way it is, deal with it )Think about THIS. Let's say you worked for a company. They pulled out ALL there factorys to China. You lost your job. It was a good paying job, with good benfits, and a great enviroment. And you lost it. Lets say all the Banks, Hospitals, Gas stations, Fast Food, ect. where full whit people looking for a job. Even the LHS has closed up for online severice. Where you going to get a new job. Oh yeah that's right, you can't, because every thing went to China. So your choice? Good job, or unimployment? Also, do you want stuff that falls apart after the second time you use it, or do you want somthing that last forever? There's a balance, it's ok to have stuff made in China, but not all of it. way, deal with it.BTW: Think about this. Every time you buy an American made product, it save some one here a job. Now just think, that might be your job? There's a balance, It's ok to have things made in China, but not ALL of it.
grayfox1119 wrote: Keep the jobs in America you say? OK, do you want to pay $600 for a plastic locomotive, $100 for a basic box car? Not real you say? Ohh yes it is....after you factor in the "American worker" salary, with his/her company paid benefits, and the higher cost to the comapny for taxes, heating, water, sewer, etc. etc. Why do you think that the Big Three auto makers in the country have one foot in the grave and the other foot on a banana peel? The higher cost of doing business in America ( company paid benefits that foreign workers do not have, sorry, but that is the way it is, deal with it )
Think about THIS.
Let's say you worked for a company. They pulled out ALL there factorys to China. You lost your job. It was a good paying job, with good benfits, and a great enviroment. And you lost it. Lets say all the Banks, Hospitals, Gas stations, Fast Food, ect. where full whit people looking for a job. Even the LHS has closed up for online severice. Where you going to get a new job. Oh yeah that's right, you can't, because every thing went to China. So your choice? Good job, or unimployment? Also, do you want stuff that falls apart after the second time you use it, or do you want somthing that last forever? There's a balance, it's ok to have stuff made in China, but not all of it. way, deal with it.
BTW: Think about this. Every time you buy an American made product, it save some one here a job. Now just think, that might be your job? There's a balance, It's ok to have things made in China, but not ALL of it.
I'm sorry, but foreign products are almost always higher quality products than American made products. I own a 1990 Toyota pick-up, that has 260,000 miles on it. The truck was made in Japan. It has never had a major problem with the motor or transmission, and the motor is solid.
On the other hand, my friend had a 1998 Ford pick-up. It has 125,000, and has everything wrong with it. It had the tranmission blow out twice, alternator belt holder snapped off after 25,000, piston cracked and ruined the crankcase, and the paint was faded sooo bad, you could not tell it was a dark blue. So, what happened?
The Toyota has a excelent engine, that can literally last forever. The American-made Ford is not good for more than 150,000 miles before major problems can happen. Ford used a cheap paint that fades after a period. My cherry red Toyota is just as cherry red as it was in 1990.
Most Asian countries, such as Japan, had to start their economies from scratch after WWII. They were able to engineer things much better than the US did when they were developed. I was watching a show on TV about shipyards. The 6 American shipyards are not efficent, as they take more time and people to make a boat than a foreign country can. I heard that it takes 5 times more people to make a boat in the US than it does overseas.
Why did Overland, and other brass model makers make their models in Japan? Because there was no quality place in America to make their models, and Japan and other companies could compete, and produce a higher quality model, at less the cost.
Athearn BB kits were always a pain in the you know where to build correctly. The coupler boxes would warp, the wheels, would be out of gauge, ect.
On the other hand...Atlas--Smooth runner, good detail. Made where? CHINA!Rapido Trains--High Quality, not made in USAthearn Gennesis, RTR--Motors are the same, but the detail is excelent.
I had to buy some picture frames for posters I bought, and I first bought them at Wal-Mart. They were plastic, and made in the USA. They were the crappiest things ever! They were broken everywhere, ends were smashed, plexi-glass scratched, and the thing was in a box! I returned it, and went to K-Mart. I bought some that were wood-construction, new, and high quality for less of the price. They were made in Taiwan. Just goes to show that USA products are not always high quality.
So, I would definatly stay away from saying that American made products are better than US products. Yes, there will be a few exceptions.
Maybe we are doing American companies a favor by showing them that their stuff is junk, and we won't buy it unless they step up their quality. Who cares if they go out of business or move to China-In the long run, it will be better for the company.
Phil
I wasn't talking about cars, or trains. AND I wasn't talking about Japan. Japan ISN'T China. Do you want to be unimployed? Answer that first. If you say no. Then why would you want to unimploy others when it could be your job. Second, do you want American flages made in China? Third, When you pick up an American made tool. You can feel that it was made in America. But a Made in China tool, dosn't feel right. Also, when you get a Pair of Work boots from china, they last for a year or two. But when you get an American Made Red Wing boots. It last for a LONG time. You where out the sole before you wear out the boot.
(Didn't want that to sound in a Harsh or flaming tone. Just wanted you to think.)
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Safety Valve wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Safety Valve,The floor can be straighten by gluing the weight to the floor..Also more important is to insure the WEIGHT and FRAME is straight.That is how you get the correct coupler height.I will be buying these new "BB kits from China" and well have no problems building them.No offense to you but,I seen more then my fair share of modelers trip,stumble and fall assembling these simple kits.I shake my head in wonder and amazement over this and have for several years.Its simply amazing how much some modelers don't know about assembling these kits.I am curious to ask your method for building these kits; how would you build one?Reason I am asking is this, I have assembled the kits as they are exactly out of the box with no modification, gauges, reamers or anything extra they they came out not much better or worse than trainset cars if such a thing is possible.Maybe my methods have crossed over the other extreme and should be published in a book, titled "How to NOT build a blue box kit."Have a happy 4th July!
BRAKIE wrote: Safety Valve,The floor can be straighten by gluing the weight to the floor..Also more important is to insure the WEIGHT and FRAME is straight.That is how you get the correct coupler height.I will be buying these new "BB kits from China" and well have no problems building them.No offense to you but,I seen more then my fair share of modelers trip,stumble and fall assembling these simple kits.I shake my head in wonder and amazement over this and have for several years.Its simply amazing how much some modelers don't know about assembling these kits.
Safety Valve,The floor can be straighten by gluing the weight to the floor..Also more important is to insure the WEIGHT and FRAME is straight.That is how you get the correct coupler height.
I will be buying these new "BB kits from China" and well have no problems building them.
No offense to you but,I seen more then my fair share of modelers trip,stumble and fall assembling these simple kits.I shake my head in wonder and amazement over this and have for several years.Its simply amazing how much some modelers don't know about assembling these kits.
I am curious to ask your method for building these kits; how would you build one?
Reason I am asking is this, I have assembled the kits as they are exactly out of the box with no modification, gauges, reamers or anything extra they they came out not much better or worse than trainset cars if such a thing is possible.
Maybe my methods have crossed over the other extreme and should be published in a book, titled "How to NOT build a blue box kit."
Have a happy 4th July!
More then likely I take a extra step or two.These cars when properly built is far above your average train set car.
Here we go.
1.I check the body to insure all is well and not warp.In the 55 years I been building Athearn cars I found all 10 of my 86 foot flat cars had this problem and one 50 foot flat..A easy cure.Straighten by gently bending back into place.
2.I then inspect the weight and straighten if needed.At this time I super glue the weight to the floor.
3.I check the frame and I straighten it if needed.
4.I paint the weight,frame and trucks to include the axles.
5.I assemble the car,add KD#5(now 148s).At this time I drill a 2-56 hole and use a 2-56 x1/8th self tapping screw to hold the coupler box clip-if needed..You should hear a "snap" as the clip seats on the mounting lugs..
6.I check the wheel gauge and coupler height and correct if needed-oddly some are spot on while others require a KD washer.
7.Once all checks in gauge I then glue the frame to the bolster pin.
The end results.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I skip with the made in China part, but I really don't care what the Athearn Blue Boxes come with as I only buy the 86' Hi Cubes, as they are at least semi-proto-typical. Most of the cars come with either incorrect ends or roofs and I have no use for any of these cars anymore.
I still have a lot of the old Blue Box cars around, as they were what we had in the 1970's but I now limit my purchases to the better kits such as IMRC, Red Caboose, Branchline Trains, Railyard Models, etc.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
MrKLUKE wrote: What's the big deal with "Made In China"? Well, HOPEFULLY nothing BUT there is the small thing about Americans funding a Communist war machine. Done any good reading about the Chinese navy lately? Checked the world maps to see where the Chinese are important influences in the world? Forget the little things like slave labor or contaminated food. That's the least of our problems. It might turn out to be paranoia but it might not. Americans only care about cheap goods and it's a damn shame. I'd gladly pay 50% or whatever more for Made In USA. Double. Whatever. If it meant I own 5 box cars instead of 10 or 15, then I'm fine with that. It doesn't matter. It's not going to change though so I might as well enjoy what's left of the ride...Jeff (MrKLUKE)
What's the big deal with "Made In China"? Well, HOPEFULLY nothing BUT there is the small thing about Americans funding a Communist war machine. Done any good reading about the Chinese navy lately? Checked the world maps to see where the Chinese are important influences in the world? Forget the little things like slave labor or contaminated food. That's the least of our problems. It might turn out to be paranoia but it might not. Americans only care about cheap goods and it's a damn shame. I'd gladly pay 50% or whatever more for Made In USA. Double. Whatever. If it meant I own 5 box cars instead of 10 or 15, then I'm fine with that. It doesn't matter. It's not going to change though so I might as well enjoy what's left of the ride...
Jeff (MrKLUKE)
nucat78 wrote: If anybody is serious about boycotting Chinese products, you better be prepared to quit buying a lot of your prepared groceries and most of your clothes. Even when the prepared food packages don't say anything about China, a lot of food additives DO come from China. Even chewing gum has Chinese ingredients in it. This is the economic reality of the world we live in. Fewer and fewer US companies actually produce tangible products and if they do, it's very rare that all components are made in the US.'Course you always have farmers' markets and craft sales if you want pure US goods.
If anybody is serious about boycotting Chinese products, you better be prepared to quit buying a lot of your prepared groceries and most of your clothes. Even when the prepared food packages don't say anything about China, a lot of food additives DO come from China. Even chewing gum has Chinese ingredients in it.
This is the economic reality of the world we live in. Fewer and fewer US companies actually produce tangible products and if they do, it's very rare that all components are made in the US.
'Course you always have farmers' markets and craft sales if you want pure US goods.
Guys,Its true! Some things never change..Years ago Japan was getting our jobs..Now its China but,yet,we still have tons of manufacturing jobs.I do know and seen more white color workers have lost their jobs to down sizing due to computers and out sourcing their jobs..
It's quite possible that our workforce chooses to keep a office on the coast and a freight agent counting papers and containers coming in than to run an actual factory with a workforce and all the challenges it entails. Factories cost too much money to be "Viable investment" on wall street.
I do see the United States covered in McJobs until the nation reaches the end of it's paycheck one week sometime in the future.
Those prices sound about right for the RTR stuff that is $20-$30 for cars and $100-$200 for locomotives. However, Athearn, Accurail, and others have have been producing kits in the USA for much less than $600 or even $100.
The differences in wages, benefits, and regulations, as well as buying habits, definitely encourage jobs to leave. Perhaps the problem needs to get worse before it will get better. But I will still buy products made here whenever possible.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Safety Valve wrote: I attempted a rebuild of a blue box kit that had a warped floor and failed the uncoupler test in every way.
I attempted a rebuild of a blue box kit that had a warped floor and failed the uncoupler test in every way.
QUOTE TO ALL ABOVE POSTS
So, you people are telling me that you people go through your LHS, or catalog, and research whether or not your item was made in a foreign country?
BRAKIE wrote: Safety Valve,The floor can be straighten by gluing the weight to the floor..Also more important is to insure the WEIGHT and FRAME is straight.That is how you get the correct coupler height.
All of that has been done in a orderly fashion, I have a flat surface which to gently test the weights. I did have to toss a number of them after they refused to accept a gentle bend or twist back into shape.
There were a few I used a very sparing drop of goo here and there and clamped to fit the straight weights. The warped plastic floor readily accepted the treatment and those couplers passed the test.
Ive been lucky, most of my floors, weights and frames have been acceptably straight and true.
All 9 of the brand new "Old" blue boxers passed the uncoupler gauge test perfectly as they were out of the box with no modification or adjustment necessary. Usually a few boxes has sat in the sun for a tad too long during shipping somewhere and warped the stuff.
It has kept me busy over the holidays, that is for sure! These annual rolling stock tests, repairs and upgrades that I depend on for good operation anywhere.
I wanted to keep the body and had the idea of using one of the RTR cars for it's under frame, couplers and wheelsets. I popped the body off, put the whiskers on and discovered that the screw-on coupler covers dont accept the whiskers very well. They just dont fit.
Then I discovered that the proto 33" wheels which I favor for these old kits wont clear the new underframe body either in the old trucks or the new trucks. I would actually have to put the new wheels back on which are smaller in diameter and are not that great. (To me)
The new frame did drop perfectly into the body of the old blue box, but frankly it is useless.
I have a feeling I better hurry up and finish the hunt for the "old" blue box kits and get them while they are still availible. Once the new stuff arrives from China, I have no reason to believe that I will be able to rebuild my old blue box rolling stock anymore after a few years.
I wonder if replacing a plastic coupler with the number 5's in the "New" RTR works. I will find out tonight.
I dont know folks, Ive been working the railroad this week with some success, but am beginning to think that these new kits coming from China are not what I want after all... too incompatible with the old Blue Boxers.
.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Ah yes! Caboose Hobbies. Been there and loved it!. I'd go there again if it wasn't so far away. That's a long way to go from Louisiana.
Ah yes! Caboose Hobbies. Been there and loved it!. I'd go there again if it wasn't so far away. That's a long way to go from Louisiana.
Well I can get from Douglas to Denver on a Straight shot down I-25. But its still a 6 hour trip down. Then I would have to get back. And being a Wyoming Kid I do not handle big city traffic well. Knowing my luck I would end up in a bad part of down. I would stop to look at a map, and before I knew whats going on. I would be lieing dead on the ground with my car and all my money stolen.
I thought up of a a possible way around the Athearn Minimum Order problem. Around Christmas time she generally stocks up with trains. Perhaps when she gets an order together she can come up with eneugh stuff to make Horizon's minimum order and I can pick out what I want when it comes in.
Master of Big Sky Blue wrote: Ahh OK. I didn't pick up on that from your original post. You are right in that if I want Athearn, I need to get it else where. However since Who's Hobby House seems to have no desire in carrying it. Because they told me "We can sell less Proto-2000 at a higher markup" the next closest place to go is in Denver. And you probably know what that place is.Ahh the great state of Wyoming. Where men are men, women are scarce, sheep are neverous, and model railroaders are stuck in the 1950s LOL
Ahh OK. I didn't pick up on that from your original post. You are right in that if I want Athearn, I need to get it else where. However since Who's Hobby House seems to have no desire in carrying it. Because they told me "We can sell less Proto-2000 at a higher markup" the next closest place to go is in Denver. And you probably know what that place is.
Ahh the great state of Wyoming. Where men are men, women are scarce, sheep are neverous, and model railroaders are stuck in the 1950s LOL
csmith9474 wrote:[ Denver? You must be talking about Mizell Hobbies. Great place (actually they aren't in Denver proper).
Denver? You must be talking about Mizell Hobbies. Great place (actually they aren't in Denver proper).
Nope Caboose Hobbies.
Master of Big Sky Blue wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Exactly why I suggested you find another LHS to buy from when it comes to Athearn products. Yours can't get them, and from the looks of things, won't be getting any Athearn products in the foreseeable future.Ahh OK. I didn't pick up on that from your original post. You are right in that if I want Athearn, I need to get it else where. However since Who's Hobby House seems to have no desire in carrying it. Because they told me "We can sell less Proto-2000 at a higher markup" the next closest place to go is in Denver. And you probably know what that place is.Ahh the great state of Wyoming. Where men are men, women are scarce, sheep are neverous, and model railroaders are stuck in the 1950s LOL
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Exactly why I suggested you find another LHS to buy from when it comes to Athearn products. Yours can't get them, and from the looks of things, won't be getting any Athearn products in the foreseeable future.
Exactly why I suggested you find another LHS to buy from when it comes to Athearn products. Yours can't get them, and from the looks of things, won't be getting any Athearn products in the foreseeable future.
It never ceases to amaze me how little most Americans really know about business, and economics. ( Notice I said "most" Americans, that is because I can tell that nearly everyone responding to this thread has a PHD in World Economics ).
We can't have it both ways folks, lowest prices for our goods bought, and "made in America" for EVERYTHING. Why? Because of the tremendously higher cost of making most anything in America today.
Many 3rd world countries ( China, Brazil, India, Malaysia, Eastern Europe countries, etc, ) are now industrializing. Ya, something that we did in 1900 during the Industrial Revolution, remember that in school? Ohh, you slept through that class? Sorry !!! These countries and all their people, are trying to have what we have here in America, a better life. It is called "sharing" the wealth and a descent life.
Why is there such a desparity between the "haves" and "have nots"? Because after WW2, the United States was the only industrialized country on this planet to come out unscathed. All the other countries had to rebuild from the ravages of war, which takes DECADES to do. We had the entire world as our market to buy our goods. Wages in this country went up every year, as did all our benefits such as pensions and health insurance.
Now, all these countries are producing more goods, at lower prices, than we can ever hope to produce them for in America for the foreseeable future. The wages in these other countries will eventually catch up to us, but never in my lifetime.
Keep the jobs in America you say? OK, do you want to pay $600 for a plastic locomotive, $100 for a basic box car? Not real you say? Ohh yes it is....after you factor in the "American worker" salary, with his/her company paid benefits, and the higher cost to the comapny for taxes, heating, water, sewer, etc. etc. Why do you think that the Big Three auto makers in the country have one foot in the grave and the other foot on a banana peel? The higher cost of doing business in America ( company paid benefits that foreign workers do not have, sorry, but that is the way it is, deal with it )
I support my LHS, he is a great old gentleman, knows more about trains and products than I will ever know, and as Jeff said in earlier post above mine, he will order anything that I want, and at a reasonable price. I also buy online....I share the wealth.