[peaved mode] According to an article I just read, there were 3 times as many x-29 boxcars as there were x-31s in the PRR fleet from 1930 to 1959, yet according to Kalmback's Freight cars there are a half-dozen manufacturers of x-31s and only Red Caboose makes an x-29.
So what's a modeler to do? The Red Caboose cars cost 4x the Bowser x-31s I've been getting. [/peaved mode]
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Actually I agree with Spacemouse. I would like a good accurate RTR model of a honest to good ness wagontop caboose or boxcar for the B&O and PRR respectively.
Not some block of resin that I gotta melt down and pollute the home trying to build. There is strict limits on what I can do because of our need for good air in our home.
Bowser is tempting. But Im actually holding out for someone else to try it.. Atlas or Athearn maybe. If ever.
Maybe Intermountain has already done it.. but they are so limited run and out of production 11 months out of the year and not availible to buy anywhere some some of the stuff... as hideously expensive they are. I have trouble buying just one of these at the store.
Sometimes accuracy comes at a price. If you want them, then buy them. Obvously the law of supply and demand at work. If there was enough demand for X-29s, then more manufacturers would invest the capital in molds to build them.
The unfortunate truth is that a wagontop boxcar, or caboose, was an atypical design used by only a limited number of roads. The demand of a good scale model of one would have limited appeal because of the limited roads it could be produced for. Compare this to a wide vision caboose or the 50ft AAR design boxcar. While there may be subtle differences in a boxcar such as door width or type or roof panel, a well engineering model would lend itself to a number of roadname and modification by modelers. Hence it gets produced instead of the X-29.
I'm would bet that there a resin/craftsman kits available - again at a cost. Resin kits are used for more limited production runs because the mold building costs are so much less that the inveestment is easier to recoup.
It's all economics
Walthers now makes the X29 (No dashes in the car type designations). They advertised them in their gold line last year and they should still be available in kit form.
Wagontop box cars are available in a styrene kit from Canonball Car Shops see this website for information on these cars http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
The Red Caboose are much more accurate than the Walthers, though more expensive.
You get what you're willing to pay for.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 wrote:Chip, it is a form of punishment for those that want to model the PRR. Why don't you switch to a different era/prototype like the 1800's and then you can really learn appreciation for accurate model availability.
For a while there I was going to model the California Western in 1917. Thier main power was 2-6-2 side-tankers.
That's how this whole thing started--reading Keystone Modeler. If I didn't know better, it wouldn't have been a problem.
Any idea on which two?
jktrains wrote: Sometimes accuracy comes at a price. If you want them, then buy them. Obvously the law of supply and demand at work. If there was enough demand for X-29s, then more manufacturers would invest the capital in molds to build them.
Manufacturers HAVE invested in them. There are two different manufacturers making the same road-specific protptype. That's pretty good in anyone's book. In addition to the two versions in plastic, Sunshine has at least five different versions of the x29 in resin, so those bases are covered too. Heck, Red Caboose just invested in new tooling for a version of the X29 with the lower edge patch panels, a car that's a must for anyone modeling 1940 through 1970.
But the TM X29 has been in production for far longer than anyone's wide-vision caboose (and remember, cabooses are more visible than boxcars, and at least as road-specific. True road devotees are at LEAST as picky about their cabs as they are about their road engines).
And your logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Let's take the Milwaukee's rib-sided boxcars as an example, a car that's as peculiar and road-specific as any. Roundhouse came out with a version in the early 1980s. Sunshine came out with them in resin in the mid-1990s. A new startup company, Rib Car Sides, recently came online and is making nothing BUT these cars, four versions so far (including a 50-footer). Finally, Intermountain is about to release yet ANOTHER version of this car. That's four different manufacturers and seven different models, all for a one-road car that saw less than 15,000 made.
Even the B&O's wagontops are pretty well represented. Besides all of the versions in brass that have come out over the past 45 years, Red Ball came out with a plastic version in the 1960s, and both Sunshine and F&C have resin versions. The Red Ball car has been re-issued by MRR Warehouse, and there's a VERY strong rumor out that a high-quality plastic version will be coming out in the next year or so.
Remember, AAR boxcars have been done to death, with basically every manufacturer who makes 40' boxes having at least one distinctly different version. That avenue is as tapped as are USRA steam engines. X29s have been done, and the Mathers cars have been done. To gain market share by producing a new freight car, manufacturers are now forced to look to more road-specific models, since we are demanding fine detail and proto fidelity over "generic" blobs of plastic these days. The two manufacturers who are still actively issuing new freight cars on a regular basis (Red Caboose and IM) are both leaning on VERY road-specific cars these days, with an SP 36' stock car, an ATSF drop-bottom gon, and the Milwaukee ribbed box. More is to come in the near future, with the most important car being the NYC's precursor to the X29, the "USRA" steel box. With 35,000+ built they were as numerous as X29s, and as easy to spot.
Resi IS a good option, but it's getting REAL expensive, with Speedwich cars (the nicest on the market) approacing $40 a pop. That's a bit too rich for my blood, and so I'm glad that plastic manufacturers are examining the real freight car rosters to find common cars to produce, evenm if they ARE road-specific. As with the NYC USRA steel box, if there were more than 20,000 of them on the rails, why NOT come out with a one roadname car?
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
See the following - scroll down the page and X29's by several manufacturers are listed (Also note that photos are available)
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29
For items that are not available as kits info is available
For PRR equipment diagrams - see
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html
For X29 diagram - see
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=X29-E73579.gif&sel=box&sz=sm&fr=
For PRR photos - see
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html
For Erie equipment diagrams - see
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie-1913db.html
For plastic scratch building supplies see
http://www.evergreenscalemodels.com/
http://www.plastruct.com/
For wood scratch building supplies - see
http://www.cardstone.com/basswood/Basswood.htm
http://www.midwestproducts.com/
FYI, For late 1800's car plans for Train City project - see and download
http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:0Zhlk468Y7Kg88NV4_YiCwF&id=TM2UJlnLgl4C
The Old Dog must ask, what more could one want?
Have fun
Dang Dog,
Where do you come up with this stuff?
There is some really cool sh-- uh, stuff here!
loathar wrote:You said in your first PRR post that you were in for a lot of scratch building and kit bashing.
Uh, that was structures. I was a contractor for a zillion years and that stuff is second nature. This hobby shore does pull at my corners.
Mr. Mouse, for my layout I need two X29s, an X29B, and and X29D. I'm using Walthers/Train Miniature kits for the X29s, upgraded to a decent but not exceptional extent as described in various articles. For the other two I'm modifying Branchline kits, mainly side sill detailing. None of these look to be that difficult. (As a bonus, I can also use the TM car to make a B&O M-26.)
As to model production, I'm not sure those Kalmbach numbers matter or are really right. I think I'm like you and am looking for reasonably accurate and available "layout quality" plastic kits. As of today I know of X29s by Red Caboose and Walthers and X31s by Bowser that would fit this description.
KL
Kurt, the numbers come from the Keystome Modeler, January 2007 edition. Scroll down to page 29. The graphs are on page 31.
Keystone Modeler January 2007
In that case here are some links that you might find useful for scratch building supplies. The Old Dog has NOT deal with most of these sites, but they semm to offer intersting and useful items or materials
Brass Scratch Building supplies
http://www.smallparts.com/materials/
http://www.rjleahy.com/index.html
http://www.twpinc.com/twp/jsp/product.jsp?type=1
http://www.glassmart.com/foil_menu.htm
http://www.ksmetals.com/Homepage/default.asp?Title=Products
http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=10&cat=BullAnt+Drive+Mechansims
http://www.nwsl.com/
http://www.jewelwire.com/brass.shtml
http://www.microfasteners.com/
http://www.galtran.com/ScaleNutsandBolts/ScaleNutsandBoltsProductPage.htm
http://www.morris01550.com/spec.htm
http://www.sdp-si.com/catalogs.htm
http://www.wagnercompanies.com/site/Viewer.aspx?iid=1430&mname=Article&rpid=580
Additional Wood Scratch Building Supplies
http://www.woodcraft.com/depts.aspx?DeptID=2123&FamilyID=1069&keyword=Bass_Wood&refcode=06INMSNS
http://www.specializedbalsa.com/products/index.php
Tool suppliers
http://www.gerstnerusa.com/
http://www.dremel.com/en-US
http://www.hobbytool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=80
http://www.moodytools.com/
http://www.preac.com/
http://www.micromark.com/
http://www.garrettwade.com/
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/cgi-bin/sgsh0101.exe?SKW=TWMF@&FNM=00&UID=!+USID!
Have fun and use at your own risk
SpaceMouse wrote: Kurt, the numbers come from the Keystome Modeler, January 2007 edition. Scroll down to page 29. The graphs are on page 31. Keystone Modeler January 2007
Oh, I meant the Kalmbach numbers for the number of X29 and X31 kit manufacturers are kinda odd and maybe useless because old metal collector's kits aren't really in the same league as Bowser kits you can buy at most LHS.
As to real car numbers, even in 1961 there were more plain PRR X29s XMs (11,283) than X31s of all types (9,546). In fact, there were more plain X29s on the PRR then than most class 1 RRs had total cars.
Once in a while I have to post a sort of a correction.
Earlier in this thread I expressed a problem with the lack of the X-29 Boxcars.
I reviewed my rolling stock today while final inspecting some newly built athearn boxcars and discovered I already own three of these:
X-29 Boxcar, 3 Pack PRR Express Stk # 932-9023
Here they are:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-9023
Are these the ones we are dealing with here?
Safety Valve wrote: Once in a while I have to post a sort of a correction.Earlier in this thread I expressed a problem with the lack of the X-29 Boxcars.I reviewed my rolling stock today while final inspecting some newly built athearn boxcars and discovered I already own three of these:X-29 Boxcar, 3 Pack PRR Express Stk # 932-9023Here they are: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-9023Are these the ones we are dealing with here?
For me kinda sorta. The top might work if it is dated before 1950. But it is a moot point because they are out of stock as usual.
SpaceMouse wrote: Safety Valve wrote: Once in a while I have to post a sort of a correction.Earlier in this thread I expressed a problem with the lack of the X-29 Boxcars.I reviewed my rolling stock today while final inspecting some newly built athearn boxcars and discovered I already own three of these:X-29 Boxcar, 3 Pack PRR Express Stk # 932-9023Here they are: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-9023Are these the ones we are dealing with here?For me kinda sorta. The top might work if it is dated before 1950. But it is a moot point because they are out of stock as usual.
The only problem with the first car is that it is an express boxcar that is usually used in passenger train operations. the other two have paint schemes that were in effect after Chip's 1950 cut off date. I would look on E-Bay for old Walthers X29 kits with the twelve numbers that were made in the early 1990's.
SpaceMouse wrote:After all that pitching and moaning, I found an Bachmann X-29 PRR Merchandise Service car at my local hobby shop. That was surprising for two reasons. First of all that I found an X-29. And second that I found 3 cars that I could use (I only bought two). This hobby shop only opened this last Christmas and really didn't know what he was doing. But he keeps getting better and better. He's listening to his customers. We may end up with a decent hobby shop. Bout time.
Oh, Chip, I'm sorry... ...but that's no X29:
It looks neither like an X29 nor one of the X29 rebuilds. I suppose it "kinda-sorta" could pass for an X29B rebuild, although your model is missing the narrow sills which betray the original X29 frame:
...but the paint scheme here is "Merchandise Service Phase 2" which was applied starting in January 1950, but only to the non-rebuilt X29s (i.e., original short-sided configuration with flat-panel ends):
Those X29Bs (or other X29 rebuilds) that were painted in Merchandise Service got the Phase 1 job:
...although this scheme was more typically applied to X40/X41 class cars as shown above.
So, Chip, unfortunately there is no super-cheap answer that gets you to accurate PRR prototype modeling; not without a lot of work, anyway. But, it's your layout, of course.
If nothing else, the paint scheme on that X29 is do-able for 1950, even if the car is not. Unfortunately, the manufacturers can slap "PRR" or "X29" on anything.
It depends on how accurate you want to be. I have a number of the old Train Miniature cars, and also some of the Red Caboose versions, and I recently picked up 3 more Walthers (ex-TM) cars.
All cars, including the Red Caboose, got metal steps and grabirons, and the TM cars had the doors and roofwalks reworked. The CASO car also got revised sill plates and scratchbuilt reverse Dreadnaught ends. All cars were painted with Floquil paints and lettered with dry transfers from C-D-S. When I see TM X-29s or USRA boxcars on the used table at the LHS, I snap 'em up, as they're fun to upgrade and make a nice visual difference in a train. Cheap, too!
Wayne
doctorwayne wrote: It depends on how accurate you want to be. I have a number of the old Train Miniature cars, and also some of the Red Caboose versions, and I recently picked up 3 more Walthers (ex-TM) cars.When I see TM X-29s or USRA boxcars on the used table at the LHS, I snap 'em up, as they're fun to upgrade and make a nice visual difference in a train. Cheap, too!
When I see TM X-29s or USRA boxcars on the used table at the LHS, I snap 'em up, as they're fun to upgrade and make a nice visual difference in a train. Cheap, too!
Those look nice Wayne, that's what I hope to do with mine.
FYI Mr. Mouse, they are ARA cars, not USRA. If you can't find X29s on ebay a search for "ARA" or "M-26" will usually turn up a few. (The real cars were similar, the TM models identical.)
Kurt_Laughlin Those look nice Wayne, that's what I hope to do with mine.
Thanks, Kurt. While the Red Caboose cars are more finely done, in my opinion the plastic grabirons aren't much of an improvement over the cast-on ones on the TM cars. The biggest single improvement that you can make to the TM (and Athearn, MDC, etc.) cars is to modify the "operating" doors.
Kurt_Laughlin FYI Mr. Mouse, they are ARA cars, not USRA. If you can't find X29s on ebay a search for "ARA" or "M-26" will usually turn up a few. (The real cars were similar, the TM models identical.) KL
If I'm not mistaken, weren't the USRA steel cars a proposed design, while the ARA versions, which were almost identical, were actually built? Here are a few more TM cars, their version of the ARA car. I based my version of these cars on some photos in some Westerfield ads, and while they're only an approximation, they're good enough for me.
All cars got wire grabs and steps, thinned roofwalks, and a revised door treatment. The Michigan Central car started as a TM plugdoor boxcar, as evidenced by the wider body panels. Floquil paint for all, with C-D-S lettering, except for the MCRR car, which was lettered with Champ decals.
Well, I thought I done good. $15 is the most I've ever spent on a piece of rolling stock. Now you tell me it's doo-doo. So much for supporting my LHS.
The Walther's tank car is probably not right either. I'm not sure I want to know.
Chip, a few hours of research can save you big $$$!
I think those Walthers/TM X29s look really good with some details and weathering.
Here's my N scale version of the Red Caboose Merchandise Service Phase 2 X29. Note how short the sides are (plus the flat-panel ends and Creco doors):
The other car is an X29 rebuild in Merchandise Service Phase 1, which has the silver stripe. Note the taller sides on the rebuilds. This car is a foobie; you don't see the narrow sides sills as on the prototype. But it's MicroTrains, and I'll accept some inaccuracies for the fine detail and running qualities of MicroTrains cars.
doctorwayne wrote: If I'm not mistaken, weren't the USRA steel cars a proposed design, while the ARA versions, which were almost identical, were actually built? Here are a few more TM cars, their version of the ARA car. I based my version of these cars on some photos in some Westerfield ads, and while they're only an approximation, they're good enough for me.
Hi Wayne,
The USRA steel, X29 and 1923 ARA boxcars are similar, but not the same cars.
The USRA "steel" boxcars were proposed, but never built by the USRA. They were based on an earlier 1916 NYC steel auto car design. The NYCS took the basic USRA design (which they helped design) and built 30,000+ copies for their own use, or only a couple hundred fewer than X29s. they were the second most numerous single boxcar design built in the USA.
The X29s were a Pennsy design, as competition to the NYC's USRA design. X29s were ONLY built for the Pennsy, in several different configurations over their 15 year production run.
The 1923 ARA car was BASED on the X29, partially because the Pennsy had men on the design team. While the cars looked a LOT like the X29, they were slightly different. Several roads did build the '23 cars, including the B&O, SAL and CGW, but many other roads bought small numbers as an experiment with steel car technology. The main difference between the '23 and the X29 was the options: ARA car designs were actually standardization suggestions, so individual roads were free to choose different ends, roofs, trucks, and draft gear.
So...how do you tell the three apart? Well, mostly by looking at the ends. In GENERAL, USRA cars have 7/7 Murphy ends, X29s have flat ends, and '23 ARAs have either flat ends or early Dreadnaught. Remember...I said IN GENERAL. The reality is that each car type DID have each type of end. In the end, you basically have to know which road owned which type of car.