Railroad evolutions...distasteful or otherwise

[R. T. POTEET]

I have indeed heard on precision advice that Pennsy fans are foamers.  Dave V. beware!

Personally, I like the Pennsy.

Now, I'm honestly looking for guidance here...what did the New York Central have to recommend itself? 

For any of you looking for something to fight about here's something to pop the bladders of all you Pennsy fans out there on this Tuesday evening in the year of our Lord two thousand and seven.

The worst thing that ever happened to the New York Central Railroad was the Pennsylvania Railroad.  New York Central brought most of the competent executive talent into the Penn Central merger; unfortuately the Pennsylvania Railroad brought in most of the (monetary) muscle and they came to dominate the corporate management with an iron fist almost from the mergers inception. The ICC's insistance on the inclusion of the deadhead New Haven into the corporate structure was the handwriting on the wall.  As more and more former-New York Central managers were forced into seeking greener pastures Penn Central began that inexorable slide into bankruptcy which they managed to reach on their 871st day of operation.

Now, I am neither a Pennsyphile nor a Pennsyphobe; I am just a History major who likes to do a lot of reading. There is an axiom in History which says that 'The winners write the History books'.  In the case of some sort of corporate failure such as the Penn Central debacle these 'winners' are usually those who are somewhere else when Samson brings the temple crashing to earth.  This is certainly true in this case; ex-New York Central executives have made some good cause for what Penn Central needed to do to attain solvency charging that the ex-Pennsy managers chose to arbitrarily ignore their suggestions and, in so doing, virtually forced them out of the corporation.  Pennsyphiles do have some ammunition for charges of 'sour grapes' except that there have been a numerous independent studies which incline towards substantiation of the ex-New York Central managers' charges.

Whatever the case, it was a real black-eye administered to what should be one of the most respected of American corporate institutions.  A pox on both their houses!!!

[Cannoli]

New York Central (or anything else remotely associated with the Yankees.)

But then again I'm a Red Sox fan so that's probably to be expected!

As a kid I loved the PRR so part of my dislike for the NYC also stemmed from there.

[WCfan]

Crash National.......poor, poor mantainance history and bad enviromental awareness.

David B

I turely to my heart, HATE, CN. There Crashing Nationaly, and wanted WC only for it's Main line. They also made the SD45 more endangered, to almost extinct.

Same with me they took Illinois Central away i HATE them for that. IC has alot of history for example CASEY JONES, the original SD40! They run through memphis now and i dont like it. I finally saw an IC unit after 2 years of seeing CN. There like UP taking all the smaller roads away!

If you want ICCR (IC) then come up here to Wausau! There was a IC GP40 switching here for a couple weeks. There also was a couple IC SD40 and 40-2s.

[NS2591]

I have come to the conclusion that you can't hate any RR. When I first started modeling I hated BNSF for taking ATSF. and I hated UP for taking CNW. While CNW was a struggling road they might have made it given another year or two, but we will never know. UP noticed that CNW was not doing well and decided to protect their main gateway into Chicago(Besides the old MP route). But I have grown used to the fact that as much as I dislike UP there is nothing I can do to change what has already happened. BNSF took ATSF. I've heard on different Videos that where done just before the merger that ATSF was struggling. Almost every book I've ever read on the ATSF that was done Post-Merger seems to Indicate that ATSF wasn't doing bad, but they wheren't doing great.

Anyways my point of this is that, You might dislike a certain company for something they've down, but in the end becuase your something you like is part of them, you may end up modeling them. I hated BNSF about 4 years ago, and now here I am modeling BNSF(Mostly ATSF though) Still no UP cars though

[superbe]

I have to agree with you on CSX. They have been poor corporate citizens in my home town. They let the old B&O historic station get in such disrepair that it was a blight to the downtown area. The Mayor who is an avid 3 rail modler and collector arranged for the City to help with the repairs. Also thier yard is never cleaned up for litter, between two downtown streets, and local citizens organize clean up days. Like you I have a "love hate relatioship" with CSX.

Bob

[shawnee]

Why was it that eastern railroads seemed more incompetent than western roads?  It seems you could always single out a struggling, pathetic eastern line...but the western lines just seemed to roll?

[eeyore9900]

I've always been partial to somewhat eastern roads. (go figure-I'm in Ohio) I never went for the western roads in my younger years at all, mainly because it seemed most road names of offered products were ATSF, UP, SP, etc. I also have never been a fan of the narrow gauge stuff. Only reason is that I'm not familiar with it 1st hand.

On the other hand, I was a dedicated CR hater in my younger years (right after it formed) & wasn't a fan of PC either-the roads than made them up, that's another story. I was a dedicated B&O/C&O Chessie person, & still am mostly. But I've softened considerably towards CR & PC-as a modeller, they do make some neat models! (I've painted/decaled/weathered 2 CR 1 bay covered hoppers, & one CR ex PC X71 boxcar.

Some of you know of the weatherer/modeler Mellow Mike. He hates anything eastern, & that's understandable, being from the far west. He did some eastern cars some time ago, but said that was gonna be it, because he much prefers western stuff. I'm the same way kinda sorta, but if I find a really cool western prototype that can be modeled/weathered, I won't turn my nose up at it.

Just my 2 cents worth. 

[Tracklayer]

Sorry. I'm still drawing a blank even with the new criteria. If it's a train, it's COOL!

As usual, I agree with brother loathar. The road really has nothing to do with it...

Tracklayer 

[Anonymous]

Sorry. I'm still drawing a blank even with the new criteria. If it's a train, it's COOL!

As usual, I agree with brother loathar. The road really has nothing to do with it...

Tracklayer 

 i third that. 

its hard for me to hate any RR because i dig trains so much. besides, i see pretty much every concievable road name down here because of the port. so basically i stay away from it if the color scheme is ugly.. that means you KCS. :P

[AggroJones]

Some of you know of the weatherer/modeler Mellow Mike. He hates anything eastern, & that's understandable, being from the far west. He did some eastern cars some time ago, but said that was gonna be it, because he much prefers western stuff. I'm the same way kinda sorta, but if I find a really cool western prototype that can be modeled/weathered, I won't turn my nose up at it.

I live further west than mike and I don't hate the east. When it comes to modeling, its equal opportunity. In fact I own a bit of eastern stuff, including a Pennsy J1, N&W A class and Y6b. And with the modern freight cars I do, same thing....east and west. No discrimination.

[snagletooth]

 If I shy away from a railroad, it isn;t beacause the railroad, as nmuch as the modelers. I WILL never model Pennsy, UP, ATSF, or DRGW narrow gauge! I love DRGW in the seventies/ eighties. But back when I started, anyone I met who modeled them had serious attitude against anyone NOT doing skiiny rails or transition. It kinda drove me away. I'm coming back, thought! Long live the Tunnel Motors!!!!. I've never shied because of the REAl railroad, it's always been the modelers taking things WAY to serious. I strive for realism as much as I can, but the above just won't give ANYONE credit for an ettempt. period. NEVER.

[stokesda]

Why was it that eastern railroads seemed more incompetent than western roads?  It seems you could always single out a struggling, pathetic eastern line...but the western lines just seemed to roll?

I think some of it has to do with the nature of railroading in the west vs. in the east. I was just doing some light reading on PRR, NYC, PC, etc. the other day. (Light reading = Wikipedia, just good enough to get the basic historical facts, which was what I was looking for).

I forget where (I think in the PRR article), but there was a comment about mid-late 20th century railroading, and the economy in general, wasn't doing too well. It was especially bad for eastern RR's, whose business was built on short hauls of mixed freight and inter-city passenger service. In the east, the population density is much greater, and the distances between major cities is much smaller. After the interstate highway system was built, many of the eastern RR's were hit hard by stiff competition from the trucking industry and automobiles, and the demand for short freight hauling and passenger service by rail dropped off. Compared with the west, which is much more wide open and spread out, long-haul freight continued to be profitable, and inter-city passenger service more relevant. As with every other business in the US at the time, western RR's were also struggling, but were doing better in general than their eastern counterparts. In the face of these changing times, many RR's, especially in the east, saw the only way to stay alive was through merging with other RR's - hence PC, etc.

[wm3798]

My favorite target is Chessie the Knife.  Aside from the fact that they raped and pillaged the Western Maryland,... well, that's really enough, isnt it?

I know personally some WM men who were relegated to obscurity by Chessie management, and watched in horror as their once proud railroad was ripped up and downgraded.  Equipment that had been lovingly maintained was allowed to deteriorate.  The shortest route to Pittsburgh with the easiest grade and best clearances across the Allegheny Front was unceremoniously turned into a bike trail.  The excuse was to eliminate duplicate facilities, but the real reason was they didn't want N&W to get their mits on it.

The coup de gras was the conversion of Port Covington, a high speed deepwater port, into a WalMart parking lot.

The picture pretty much says it all...

Lee 

[superbe]

"

Why was it that eastern railroads seemed more incompetent than western roads?  It seems you could always single out a struggling, pathetic eastern line...but the western lines just seemed to roll?

I think some of it has to do with the nature of railroading in the west vs. in the east. I was just doing some light reading on PRR, NYC, PC, etc. the other day. (Light reading = Wikipedia, just good enough to get the basic historical facts, which was what I was looking for)."

In response to shawnee , stokesda expressed what I was  thinking abou East vs West. Also I might add that when the RR became a reliable means of transportation the major cities in th East were already eastablished. The RR had fo fit into an existing situation meanwhile out West Jessie James and the Daltons were robbing stage coaches. (lol). Seriously though the West was developed because of and with the RR in mind.instead of the RR adapting to what already existed..

 Just my thoughts.

Bob

[AltoonaRailroader]

I like it, but if I had to choose my least favorite, it would be the Pennsylvania Railroad. It's just so popular that sometimes I can't stand it.

 

I feel the same way about the UP, but that makes me a hipocrit because I do like to UP Stuff.

[AltoonaRailroader]

I have indeed heard on precision advice that Pennsy fans are foamers.  Dave V. beware!

Personally, I like the Pennsy.

Now, I'm honestly looking for guidance here...what did the New York Central have to recommend itself? 

I am a proud foamer!!!    In fact, we have a special acronym for ourselves:

SPF - Serious Pennsy Fan

...often mistaken by non-PRR fans to stand for:

Slobbering Pennsy Fan

As for my least favorite railroad, I know it should be New York Central...  but I don't mind it.  I don't know.  I will say non-US railroads hold less interest for me.

I should hate Conrail for ripping up so much former PRR...  or should I hate Penn Central for running the PRR into the ground?  After all, PC also abandoned a lot of marginal PRR track that Hurricane Agnes destroyed in 1972.  In the end, though, PRR was itself largely responsible for its own demise because of a combination of poor priorities and failure to adjust in a timely manner to a changing world.  So, should I hate the railroad I love?  Oooh, how deep is that?

 

That's pretty heavy stuff there Dave, quite a connundrum.

[shawnee]

The whole UP vs. Model Railroading Manufacturers, most of whom are essentially small businesses, was a bit of corporate money-grab meglomania and something only a lawyer could love.  It soured me a bit on the Building America line.  Yeah, uh-um...building america and messing with model railroading.

[Paul3]

Why was it that eastern railroads seemed more incompetent than western roads?  It seems you could always single out a struggling, pathetic eastern line...but the western lines just seemed to roll?

Whoa.  It wasn't 100% incompetant managment (PC excluded), it was the economical reality of the era.  For example, take the New Haven.  It's longest freight run was 231 miles or so, Maybrook, NY to Boston, MA.  Compare that to any big Western road, and they each went 2000 miles or so, right?  When you are paid by the mile or by the day, which do you think is going to make more money?

Not let's throw in commuter operations.  How many western roads had heavy commuter service?  Sure, they had Chicago (broken up amongst how many RR's?), L.A., S.F., and maybe a few others, but the NH alone had to service New York City, Boston, Hartford, Providence, New Haven, etc., each with branches off into the hinterlands of Southern New England.  And since commuters don't make money (and they were forced to run 'em due to gov't interferance), the NH and all the Eastern roads lost a lot of money by way of the commuter.

Then you have high, high tax rates.  According to rumor, Conrail used to pay more real estate taxes to New York State then all other states combined (which should give you some idea of the high taxation rates in NY).  Western roads did not have such a high burden.

Next is expansion.  Most Western roads (historically) built their RR's for themselves with help from the gov't, while most Eastern roads bought out their competitors to form complete networks by raising private capital.  For example, the New York Central ran several other corporations like the Boston & Albany, P&LE, etc.  And also, the New Haven took over some 70 different RR's (if not more) on it's way to the it's final shape.  These other RR's were usually leased for 99 years or 999 years, and these leases had to be paid off or else.

Furthermore, you had factories moving South and West.  The 1920's was the high point of Eastern RR'ing, after that the factories started to close and move in search of lower taxes, cheaper labor, and lower energy costs (ie, warmer winters).  This took money out of the Eastern roads and put it into the Western RR pockets.

It was a bad deal, all the way around, for Eastern roads.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[MidlandPacific]

Paul, since you're here - I have an OT NYNH&H question for you - is there are good book (or books) that cover the main line of the New Haven between Boston and Hell Gate Bridge in the sort of detail that you see in the "Triumph" series about the pennsy (i.e., good maps, plans of key yards and facilities, descriptions of improvements over the years)?

 

[shawnee]

Sorry..hit a button twice.    See next post...

[shawnee]

Yes, I understand this.  Cars and trucks and regulation eventually strangled the eastern roads. And western distances upheld the viability of rail freight.

Plus, the coal fields in PA starting running thin, the steel industry buckled under subsidized foreign competition (don'tcha love "free trade"), and these didn't support the RR volume as much anymore.  Of these - Reading, D&H, Erie Lackawampum, Pennsy (any others?) - weren't they all financially footed on coal/steel railroading?  I'm not sure about the Pennsy, but that's a good guess.  Those anthracite and oil fields in PA were gold early in the century.

But didn't a lot of management in eastern railroads, with basic uniformity, get soft and reluctant to adapt? Penn Central was the epitomy and last gasp of this, but were the others far behind in lack of managerial vision, energy and leadership?  When you take a look at CSX today, and the amount of freight they process via New York harbor...it's the mainstay of their non-coal business...couldn't effective, aggresive, pro-active management at any of the fallen flags made a huge difference, so one of 'em would still be around today?  Or was the coming of Penn Central so hopeless and poorly led that no one else stood a chance.

Conrail was profitable unto itself when it was unceremoniously eviscerated.

[R. T. POTEET]

I turely to my heart, HATE, CN. There Crashing Nationaly, and wanted WC only for it's Main line. They also made the SD45 more endangered, to almost extinct.

What else, pray tell, did WC have besides a mainline?  Railroads have value only because of where they go and WC went to Chicago - and that was where CN wanted to go and they swallowed up WC to get there.

Railroads have been doing this for over a hundred and fifty years; look at the Pennsy and how they got into Chicago.  The NMRA Bulletin once published a Railroad 'Corporate Genealogy', if you will, one of those 'who begat who' tables, on the St Louis-San Francisco Railroad. There were, I believe, over one hundred corporate entities melded into the formation of the Frisco.  Most of this was done before model railroading came into vogue but people have been loosing their 'favorite' railroads almost since railroads began.  The list of airplane manufacturers who have lost their corporate identity through mergers and/or acquistions is getting pretty long also.  Many automobile companies have just faded into the sunset; others, however, have been gobbled up by their bigger and more powerful neighbors and from that we get names like General Motors.

Merger/acquisitions do not involve the esthetic of visual style and beauty; one railroad does not merge with nor acquire another because that other 'has a more beautiful paint scheme on their locomotives' - I do, by the way, know someone who shifted his 'allegiance' to BNSF because he liked their paint scheme better than CSX's. Merger/acquisitions are always about money and power. In every merger/acquisition one party is operating from a position of superior strength; notice that in the sixties we had Penn Central, not Central Penn.  Have you heard of that new railroad, the Santa Fe Burlington Northern?  Few realize that in the sixties or seventies we came close to having a Missouri Pacific and Santa Fe.  Another thing we have never seen is a Chicago and Milwaukee Northwestern but that was another possibility that fizzled out over that issue of money. No party ever asks in their board meetings "How will model railroaders feel about this?" Today we have neither a Milwaukee nor a Northwestern to drool over and we seldom acknowledge the fact that a sort of economic Darwinism was at work here. I have a friend/acquaintance who hates BNSF - would you like to take a wildassguess as to which historical society he is a member of. 

You lost the WC; I always thought I would like to model the Wabash but it got gobbled up by N&W over thirty years ago. I don't hate N&W; in fact it is one of my favorite railroads.  Wabash went to Kansas City and Omaha and that's where N&W now goes.  The next round of mergers, if there is a next round of mergers, could put somebody into both New York and Los Angeles and somebody will probably completely loose their corporate identity in this one; there is a mighty big corporate identity to be lost and there is going to be a whole bunch of unhappy campers sitting around the model railroading campfire after this one.

Loosing our favorite prototype is indeed an emotional issue, but, you know, it opens up all kinds of possibilities.  Western Pacific is gone, but did you know, that in 1997 it adopted a new paint scheme and now container trains roll through the Feather River Canyon behind Orange and Light Blue third generation diesels; Nickel Plate recently took delivery of some new state-of-the-art GE MACs; and piggyback service to and from the gulf coast has increased so dynamically that L&N just acquired a couple of hundred new 89' flat cars. All of this is in HO Scale or N Scale, of course.  WCfan (and anyone else struggling with this issue), the good ole' Wisconsin Central is alive and well.  Admittedly you can't go out to trackside and watch it roll through wherever it rolls through but you can stand at layoutside and watch it roll through wherever it rolls through.  You can freeze your railroad at the day before it lost its identity to CN; freezing your railroad on that particular date also freezes your motive power on that particular date but it equally freezes your memories which is invaluable.  You also have the option of pretending that your railroad still exists as a 'now' railroad.

Few realize that the Milwaukee Road is alive and well and still runs through the canyons of Northern Idaho and Western Montana and still operates under the colors of the eighties; either N Scale magazine or N Scale Railroading magazine had a photo feature awhile back proving that point.  The Western Maryland still snakes coal drags out of Elkins West Virginia through the mountains headed to tidewater; and Santa Fe still runs trains into and out of Argentine.

[yougottawanta]

I have not studied the history of the different railroads to form an opinion one way or the other. However after reading these post several things occured to me. 1) All rail roads are a buisness that there share holders expect to turn a proffit. Good or bad this ultimely drives decisions 2) regular everyday people work the system. Do you hate them also or just "the man" ever who that is ? 3) I understand not liking a particular system because of poor stewardship of it system ,people,equipment etc....4)What ultimately classifies a rail road as bad. there seems to be many opinions on this. Some of the items I have gleened so far from the thread is the following. a)poor paint scheme b) poor finacial decisions c) poor stewardship of tracks,equipment people... d) bought their favorite rail system e) poor upper management f) corporate raid on system and sale off of rail system for profit f)abondoned favorite loco's g) did away with steam h) never had steam ... i) west vs east j) US vs non US .What other items could be added to this list to qaulify a rail road for being strongly disliked ? 

 

 

[shawnee]

My favorite target is Chessie the Knife.  Aside from the fact that they raped and pillaged the Western Maryland,... well, that's really enough, isnt it?

I know personally some WM men who were relegated to obscurity by Chessie management, and watched in horror as their once proud railroad was ripped up and downgraded.  Equipment that had been lovingly maintained was allowed to deteriorate.  The shortest route to Pittsburgh with the easiest grade and best clearances across the Allegheny Front was unceremoniously turned into a bike trail.  The excuse was to eliminate duplicate facilities, but the real reason was they didn't want N&W to get their mits on it.

The coup de gras was the conversion of Port Covington, a high speed deepwater port, into a WalMart parking lot.

The picture pretty much says it all...

Lee 

Lee, how much of Western Maryland track line did Chessie, and ultimately CSX, ultimately retain?  This has always interested me, to what extent WM rail still sees service today.  I've always thought that the WM was a classy line, with really interesting country they went through, Maryland, WV.  Was the WM mainline essentially duplicative of the B&O, along the Potomac?

[Dave Vollmer]

 If I shy away from a railroad, it isn;t beacause the railroad, as nmuch as the modelers. I WILL never model Pennsy, UP, ATSF, or DRGW narrow gauge! I love DRGW in the seventies/ eighties. But back when I started, anyone I met who modeled them had serious attitude against anyone NOT doing skiiny rails or transition. It kinda drove me away. I'm coming back, thought! Long live the Tunnel Motors!!!!. I've never shied because of the REAl railroad, it's always been the modelers taking things WAY to serious. I strive for realism as much as I can, but the above just won't give ANYONE credit for an ettempt. period. NEVER.

Wow, that's a sad post.  Really is.  So, no matter how much you like a prototype, you wouldn't model it if it has followers you perceive as condescending?

Sounds to me like you care a bit too much about what other people think.  I'm not singling out this post because you name PRR as one of those groups with fans who are, in your words, WAY too serious.  I would agree that Pennsy fans are definetly rabid about their (our) prototype.  But who cares?  Really, why would you care? 

Granted we all do seek some level of acceptance from our peers (the very public nature of these forums suggests so).  But I find the most condescending modelers are often the ones with only a handful of superdetailed models with no layout to run them on.  Why would I care about what those guys say?  Why should you?

Overall there is a sense of hyper-sensitivity displayed throughout these forums lately.  From people angry that, upon showing up at a club open house, that they are not greeted as royalty, to the idea that one would avoid a prototype or scale (see other threads for that one, too) because of some broad, sweeping, stereotypical generalization about those modelers, it all starts to sound a little like "waaaaaaaaaah!!!!" to me.

My two cents.

[Paul3]

MidlandPacific,
In short, no.  The info is out there, but it has not be collected into one complete work.  The historical RR atlas for the Northeast has some nice maps, and of course you can get RoW drawings from several online sources (these show grades, curves, sidings, interlockings, speed restrictions, bridges, etc.).  There are, of couse, several nice books on the NH that cover either the general history or specific eras or routes, but nothing all inclusive.  Sorry.

shawnee,
The coal fields didn't "run thin".  There's plenty of coal down there today.  It just isn't as economical to mine it at the moment as other means of using energy.  You also had the almost total collapse of the home heating market for coal.  Almost every town in the Northeast had a coal tipple...and these are long gone today.  The oil, I won't argue with.  I don't think that there's all that much left.  PA oil was pretty shallow and easy to get to, and it's pretty much been tapped, IIRC.

Eastern RR's didn't get "soft and reluctant to adapt".  They couldn't adapt because various gov't agencies, labor unions, and economic realities wouldn't let them.  They couldn't stop service, they couldn't abandon trackage, they couldn't raise rates, they couldn't drop employment, and they couldn't make factories stay put.  All they could do was merge.  Unfortunately, the PC was the one merger they shouldn't have made.

The NH's last president before the bankrupty, George Alpert, made several speeches before Congress, took out newspaper ads, appeared on TV and pleaded for deregulation.  But no one would listen.  Heck, even Patrick McGinnis (an optimist if there ever was one) talked about the need for gov't intervention or else.  But for 25 years, no one did much about it.  It was only when Congress was looking at the total shut down of just about all Eastern RR'ing that they did something by passing the Staggers Act that deregulated RR'ing...in 1980.

CR was only profitable after Staggers...and even that took until the mid-1980's.

About the only northeastern Class I that's till around unmerged is the Boston & Maine/Maine Central.  Sure, it's Pan Am now (ex-Guilford), but it's still essentially the same RR from WWII.  It's a lot thinner, they had a violent union strike in the 1980's, and they were bought by a wealthy banking family that answers to no one (and probably bought the RR with loose change found in the couch cushions), but they are still there.  BTW, they are no longer a Class I (they've changed the rules).  B&M/MEC is only around today because they were both unattractive to merge with at certain points in the past, but they still originated enough loads (paper goods, mostly) that they could survive.

R. T. POTEET,
FYI, the reason why it's Penn Central instead of Central Penn had nothing to do with who bought whom.  The actual PC merger was the New York Central bought the PRR.  PC just sounded better than CP, I guess.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[reklein]

The thing I can't figure out is , How can a guy mismanage a RR to the point of losing millions, and then get appointed by Bush to be the transportion cabinet head??? As for trains all RR's have a lot of interest, But only GN did it right from the get go.

[shawnee]

Paul, a very informed discussion.

I intended the term "running thin" to imply volume of coal produced (economically, in relation to demand) rather than geologic reserves...there is plenty of that, otherwise Centralia wouldn't be burning for another 100 years.  But you are certainly right about the collapse of home coal heating market, which was anthracite's sweet spot.

However, I don't think eastern RR management gets a total pass in the pre-Staggers era.  What was the reason they couldn't muster public support for their plight in the highway age?  In many cases, years and years of bad customer relations, poor service, bad community relations, insular, aloof thinking, with marginal attempts to pool resources or innovate..kind of a lack of vision and leadership too, eh?  Weren't they viewed at the time as a bunch of robber-baron rail execs?  Why was that?  You don't think they were relatively slow to react to the changes wrought by the trucking industry...to make changes to operating philosophy and customer/public engagement?  Why did the truckers have such an effective lobby, and the railroads did not?

I don't have the answers, you have more knowledge of much of the history, but these are just questions.

By the way, my readings have led me to the conclusion that the NH was one of the better managed eastern roads. 

[R. T. POTEET]

Dave V, your posted response to snagletooth's posted response to this topic was a very good one and after I had read it I went into the bathroom, looked at myself in the mirror, pointed and said, "you did that!'  And I did.  Even to this day I carry a certain measure of animosity around towards Massachusetts partly because of some details associated with my Air Force assignment there and partly because of the personalities of some of the people I met there.  It wasn't too long after I began my assignment there that I discovered that civilization ended twenty miles west of the Hudson River. I had been living out there in the wilderness for most of my life; someplace out there in the darkness there was a place called California but it took a six month journey by covered wagon to get there -there were even members in the model railroad club who thought that Southern Pacific was an Ohip shortline - they never did resolve that if it were in Ohio it was beyond the pale of that industrialization which ended twenty miles beyond the west bank of the Hudson. Football was played at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn State - I know that's your Alma Mater - they did not play football at Nebraska nor Oklahoma nor Texas nor USC; instead, as Andy Griffith humorously expounded upon, they ran around on cow pastures for sixty minutes trying to avoid stepping in something. It wasn't that I was being humored but rather there was a belief that anything from the west - which began just beyond that west bank of the Hudson River - was, automatically, inferior to anything from New England.

This is all tongue in cheek, of course, but there was an attitude and I got very tired of it before I finally got transferred; I would probably have deserted had the Air Force ever attempted to reassign me there again - either that or I would have hid under the bed when I was not on duty.  Intimidated?  You betchum' Little Beaver.  But I have learned how to give much better than I receive and today my tongue would have a real ball there!

I do understand where snagletooth is coming from. Unfortunately it is sometimes just a little difficult keeping personality out of our modeling interests; we want and actively seek the company of fellow model railroaders - sometimes with disasterous results. For some years I  bore a measure of animosity towards Central of New Jersey and the Pennsy - sorry about that - for the same reason as my distaste for Massachusetts; I got so tired of hearing about the Central of New Jersey and the Pennsy from two acquaintances of mine that sometimes I literally wanted to scream.  If XYZ railroad did this then Central of New Jersey did it better; if the ABC railroad recently purchase X-number of a specific locomotive Pennsy had just ordered X-number plus ten; etc, etc, and so forth. I have always tried to avoid this 'oneupmanship' mentality'. Even today the Standard Railroad of the World quip drives me bonkers because the only people who felt that the Pennsy was the Standard Railroad of the World was the Pennsy; probably only Alka Seltzer® and Die-Hard® have ever produced a more commendable coup. Even today people remember the ads from those days of yore which expounded the Pennsylvania Railroad as The Standard Railroad of the World. The Pennsylvania Railroad and the U S Marine Corps have probably had/have the greatest public relations departments in the history of mankind. Fifty years before Once a Marine Always a Marine there was Once a Cowboy Always a Cowboy; there are no ex-cowboys!

It actually took me years to shed my negative attitudes in these regards.  Unfortunately, because of this, I ignored various aspects of railroad history associated with those roads - and if you ignore Pennsy you are really ignoring railroad history. One day I realized that I had to stop modeling JOEBLOWFROMKOKOMO and begin focusing on the railroad that ran through Kokomo. Hopefully I am going to make it to the national convention in Hartford in 2009 and I plan on taking my wife to visit in Massachusetts and other areas of New England - she has never been there; I hope also to get to "The Curve" - that's Pennsy, of course - and visit the Anthracite Region - that's CNJ - and shoot hundreds of pictures and I'm not going to think about JOEBLOWFROMKOKOMO for one minute while I am there.

[MidlandPacific]

R.T. you should get a blog.  Seriously.  I think it's your medium.  And that's a complement.

Paul, thanks for the info - and a little astonished!  I would've guessed that some compendium had already been assembled.