I frankly would be pleased if Rapido Cars did come pre-installed with Whiskers. 5 dollars? Sure why not? It will either happen off the bat with Rapido or it will go to Kaydee. On my railroad that 5.00 is already spent.
There are a few things that I dont compromise on and Kaydee products happen to be one of them. Now, when I survey the massive numbers (To me) of plastic couplers that will fail and need replacement in my 100 or so peices of rolling stock I can see right away that it will be a very large part of my hobby budget. No problem, it is a oppertunity to get the stuff into standard and those peices that fail to pass the gauge will either be fixed or turned into parts.
I consider that as a customer, the products made in the hobby all compete for my dollar. Those that take the time to make quality and trouble free (Mostly) items will most likely get the sale the rest will stay on the shelf. So, please. Consider the kaydee and dont waste my time with el-cheapo wanna be's.. not at the today's MSRP's that are out there.
If it means actually exporting a ship full of Kaydees to China and having Quality control people install them correctly.. so be it.
In my world, as long as it's a knuckle coupler, it's good!
I agree--Kadees never fail. Bachmann EZ mates, and McHenrys do.
I don't like the ones that have the plastic wiper that act in place of a spring.
The only couplers I buy (besides Kadees) are couplers that are plastic, but have metal springs.
If you guys don't want yours, I'll take em!
Phil
Safety Valve wrote: Sky Blue, I just finished a set of 40' reefers from Branchline, it took me some time and they were the first to recieve the Kaydee Whisker 148's they are a set of 4 that I purchased last year. In no way did I intend to give you or anyone the idea that merely buying RTR or Blue Box that I am avoiding the problems related to coupler testing against the gauge.I do the kits that I can in the time that I need to do them. The RTR's I buy because they are well done, the Proto 8,000 gal tank cars for example.It is my challenge physically to do some of the kits and am careful with my budget to pick just the rolling stock that I will enjoy and not waste money on. Then they get Metal wheels and Kaydees. Always have been, always will be an extra expense which I dont mind these last 10 years.The piles of thrown away horn-hooks and failed kaydee look-alikes is mute testamony to some manufactors un-willingness to cough that extra dollar or two in cost to make the rolling stock. I see that some manufactors install kaydees at the factory and those are the ones that earn my loyalty.Thank you Kaydee for posting here, it is much appreciated. I would like to see your company prosper and make the couplers long after I pass on because it is truly a great thing to have in this hobby. Ive managed to put a pound of TE on the couplers and they have withstood it. I dont know how much more they can take without failing. But certainly MUCH more than the crappy plastic wanna-be's.I think it is a sad thing to continually crank out a plastic POS that will fail instead of spec'ing a Kaydee from the start.
Sky Blue, I just finished a set of 40' reefers from Branchline, it took me some time and they were the first to recieve the Kaydee Whisker 148's they are a set of 4 that I purchased last year. In no way did I intend to give you or anyone the idea that merely buying RTR or Blue Box that I am avoiding the problems related to coupler testing against the gauge.
I do the kits that I can in the time that I need to do them. The RTR's I buy because they are well done, the Proto 8,000 gal tank cars for example.
It is my challenge physically to do some of the kits and am careful with my budget to pick just the rolling stock that I will enjoy and not waste money on. Then they get Metal wheels and Kaydees. Always have been, always will be an extra expense which I dont mind these last 10 years.
The piles of thrown away horn-hooks and failed kaydee look-alikes is mute testamony to some manufactors un-willingness to cough that extra dollar or two in cost to make the rolling stock. I see that some manufactors install kaydees at the factory and those are the ones that earn my loyalty.
Thank you Kaydee for posting here, it is much appreciated. I would like to see your company prosper and make the couplers long after I pass on because it is truly a great thing to have in this hobby. Ive managed to put a pound of TE on the couplers and they have withstood it. I dont know how much more they can take without failing. But certainly MUCH more than the crappy plastic wanna-be's.
I think it is a sad thing to continually crank out a plastic POS that will fail instead of spec'ing a Kaydee from the start.
I was not trying to inply in any way that you were trying to skip the steps of ensuring standards compliance on your model raiload. I was trying to demonstrate that I to an frustrated with the same problems and have avoided them by mainly sticking to a Build as much as possible polocy. This does not bother me as I like to dig in and work on projects with my hands anyway. I do not talk about this much. But I have a slight handicap in that I do not have fine motor control of my hands. Sure they do most normal things I need to do with my hands just fine. But say appliying paint to some 3/4 inch tall pink plastic figures is a very difficult job for me and when working with fine detail I can only work for about 15 minuts at a time of actively trying to hold my hands steady before my concentration falters and my hands actually fall asleep. This problem was partly the reason my dad got me into model trains in the first place and it has actually been very good physical therepy for me in that respect. I can tell when I need to sit back down at the workbench and work on something because if I am away for a few weeks my hands will go back to being shakey. Model Trains (And the few model airplanes I build when for one reaon or another I get bored with trains) is one way I can keep my hands on the level. Why I went off on this little jaunt I do not know because it has nothing to do with my point. Other than I guess that by building kits, I avoid shoddy workmanship and get to work with my hands. And By working with my hands I get to work on overcoming a physical limitation that can seriosly cause other every day tasks like writing, or even typing.
Rapido wrote:This is a very accurate description of the situation for us. I love Kadee couplers, and I would love to put them on our models, especially the new whisker scale-size couplers, which drop right in to our coupler boxes.But if I did that I would have to increase our MSRP by about $5 - remember we have two pairs of couplers in every box: a short shank scale coupler installed on the model and a long shank regular coupler to use if you have tight curves. If my cost increases by x dollars, my distributor price will have to increase by that amount just so I can break even, which means the retail price increase will be more a lot more than x. It is much more economical for you to swap out our couplers for a pair of Kadees if you want to, especially if you buy a bulk pack. That way you can choose which type of Kadee you want - not everybody wants a scale coupler and not everybody wants a #5. It probably takes longer to open the box and remove the passenger car from the plastic wrap than it does to swap the couplers. Best regards,Jason
This is a very accurate description of the situation for us. I love Kadee couplers, and I would love to put them on our models, especially the new whisker scale-size couplers, which drop right in to our coupler boxes.
But if I did that I would have to increase our MSRP by about $5 - remember we have two pairs of couplers in every box: a short shank scale coupler installed on the model and a long shank regular coupler to use if you have tight curves. If my cost increases by x dollars, my distributor price will have to increase by that amount just so I can break even, which means the retail price increase will be more a lot more than x.
It is much more economical for you to swap out our couplers for a pair of Kadees if you want to, especially if you buy a bulk pack. That way you can choose which type of Kadee you want - not everybody wants a scale coupler and not everybody wants a #5. It probably takes longer to open the box and remove the passenger car from the plastic wrap than it does to swap the couplers.
Best regards,
Jason
According to the Walthers Catalog, a Package of 40 series couplers cost $3.95. Since you include two pairs anyway. I would say your $5.00 Estimate is good eneugh. So I would surely buy your cars Kadee supplied for an Extra $5.00 or so.
The thing I am interested in is since I am a craftsman by nature, I would LOVE more than anything the chance to build one of your fantastic looking cars from a kit. But you only offer fully assembled. Is there a chance that Kit Versions of your cars can be or will be offered in the future. Mainly because while you rightly deserve the $50.00 or so MSRP that you get for your cars. (Quite frankly the best passenger cars I have ever seen period in my opinion.) This modelers personal budget does not allow for such extravegences. (My personal modeling budget is presently running about $45.00-$50.00 a month, and I am trying to build a layout currently) A kit version of these cars could be offered for less money, as the labor expense for assembling the cars at the factory is bypassed and then I could probably splurge on a few of your cars with a clear conscience. Even if it does cost an extra $5.00 more than it could because Kadee Couplers are included.
Respectfully Yours.
James Mitich
Modeler on a Budget.
Heh heh seems like only yesterday when the FIRST thing you did to a new car or locomotive, kit or RTR, was remove and toss the horn hook coupler. How we longed for the situation we have today, with Kadee knockoffs that are, at least compatible. Now you can at least run the car before deciding to change the couplers or wheels.
What I find with Walthers passenger cars is that I have to tinker with them, both the couplers and the trucks. When adjusted enough they seem to work OK. My commuter bilevels were just not running well at all especially through crossovers and super elevated curves until I noticed a thin metal shim around the truck bolster that was distorted and needed to be tamped down a bit. Then they ran fine -- but NOT before I had relayed a far amount of track figuring that my tracklaying was undoubtedly the problem (actually a pretty reasonable assumption ....). That said it might actually be helpful to lay track so that it accepts your worst cars.
On my layout passenger consists will basically stay coupled and not be broken up and re arranged, at least not very often, so some of the virtues of real honest to goodness Kadees (which remain by far the best in my experience) might not be as important as on freight cars and locos. Time will tell. Kadee makes a great product and I do not think the explosion in the number of available knock offs has hurt them a bit -- indeed I suspect killing off the horn hook once and for all has been good for Kadee.
Dave Nelson
Customizing a piece of rolling stock is half of the fun of this hobby or any hobby.
What makes my blood boil is supplying junk just because it was done before and couplers are a prime example.
"Another complaint of mine is why do ALL model RR equiptment put the coupler on the trucks? NO railroad ever put the coupler on its truck.
BECAUSE too many "modelers" use too sharp of curves that don't work with prototypical-length cars.
IE: 'TOY-LIKE' curves with 'non' toy-like cars. The NMMRA (who?) recommends curve radius of 3X the length, An 85' foot car measures about 12", and 3 X 12 = 36"r. (6" cars X 3 = 18"r. ).
What's in your wallet - er on your layout?
DON'T blame the Manufacturer. YOU picked your track ,and product. Hello! You cannot repeal the laws of Physics.
Good couplers wouldn't be too expensive. The problem with the poor ones is the plastic springs which fatigue, often before you open the box, always if you leave them pushed against a track bumper between monthly operating sessions.
The last couple Life Like Proto 2,000 (Which is Walthers now) cars I built have bronze centering springs but plastic knuckle springs. A pair of E-Z couplers in the same junk pile, I think from an Atlas car, have metal knuckle springs but plastic centering whiskers.
It manufacturers can afford one or the other, it would cost a tiny amount more to do both at once. From there it is just a matter of setting fine tolerances.
MisterBeasley wrote: hdtvnut wrote: Thrown away and replaced with KD's. HalThe right choice. Were they really McHenry's, or were they Accumates? Not that it matters, really. Even Red Sox and Yankees fans can agree on Kaydees.
hdtvnut wrote: Thrown away and replaced with KD's. Hal
Hal
The right choice. Were they really McHenry's, or were they Accumates? Not that it matters, really. Even Red Sox and Yankees fans can agree on Kaydees.
Yup thats the one and only thing we smart Red Sox fans can agree on with dumb Yankee fans.
-Jake
davidmbedard wrote: I still cant believe that people expect everything to be perfect out of the box. I seems to me that "effort" is being taken out of this hobby.Changing couplers is a 2 minute job, MAX. And a final check before the rolling stock touches the layout rails is a must....but again this takes "effort".As a Canadian Modeler, nothing is available to me ready for running on the rails, nothing. If its a locomotive, there is usually major bashing involved to make it even close to the prototype. Take the SD40-2 for example. You have to change out the nose, rear light, front and rear handrails, anticlimber, ditchlights, anticlimber liftrings, plate pilot, bell relocation, sinclair antenna, accurate paint....). Changing out couplers is a nominal thing.....a nessesary skill in our hobby. If you cant handle that aspect, then there are others that are much more involved.David B
I still cant believe that people expect everything to be perfect out of the box. I seems to me that "effort" is being taken out of this hobby.
Changing couplers is a 2 minute job, MAX. And a final check before the rolling stock touches the layout rails is a must....but again this takes "effort".
As a Canadian Modeler, nothing is available to me ready for running on the rails, nothing. If its a locomotive, there is usually major bashing involved to make it even close to the prototype. Take the SD40-2 for example. You have to change out the nose, rear light, front and rear handrails, anticlimber, ditchlights, anticlimber liftrings, plate pilot, bell relocation, sinclair antenna, accurate paint....).
Changing out couplers is a nominal thing.....a nessesary skill in our hobby. If you cant handle that aspect, then there are others that are much more involved.
David B
Here here!
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
MY RECOMMENDATIONS for Walthers passenger cars are:
1. USE KADEE 30 series couplers - because they have 3 different shank lengths ,3 different shank heights, plus each coupler box has 2 mountings. That is 15 different coupler combinatiobs without disturbing the critical truck/bolster height combination.
2. USE Kadee's 'Grease-em' in the axle wells. It's inexpensive Graphite and will lubricate the metal/metal without disturbing the electical flow - should you want to add lights in the future.
If you have a preference of you own, (please) state WHY.
Users of #30 couplers have a trickier time with KD's centering spring - it takes practice - or accomplishment, if you will.
(2).Users of 'whisker' couplers will not have as many available adjustments, and (3). 'scale couplers' have less handshake over vertical deflections- letting go - plus are invisible when connected.
I use them on Observation car ends and 'point' engines where I can see them.
Don Gibson wrote:MY RECOMMENDATIONS for Walthers passenger cars are:1. USE KADEE 30 series couplers - because they have 3 different shank lengths ,3 different shank heights, plus each coupler box has 2 mountings. That is 15 different coupler combinatiobs without disturbing the critical truck/bolster height combination.
[The biggest supplier of replacement knuckles looks like two snakes fighting.]
ROTFLMAO... ...toooo funny! Thanks for the chuckles, even if not so funny for you.
Rob
Well, Im in HO Scale. Kadee has never failed in 30+ years no matter what I did to it. IF it broke, I broke it not Kadee.
Figure on 3.50 every two cars for 148's in HO Scale and 9 dollars a set of Proto 33" wheels for 3 complete cars.
I dont do N scale and cannot tell you what it will cost with Kadee products in that scale. But at least in HO scale, Plastic couplers, wheels are thrown away on sight and replaced with Kadee and Protos or IM wheels in my home. I dont compromise.
You might catch me with a few plastic couplers, Im waiting for those to fail sometime within the first year or so so they can be replaced.
Such things have clarity in the Hobby, Kadee is quality and no I dont work for them.
Just looked at Micro-trains and it looks should run about $4.50 per car (for certain trucks if bought in bulk), while others will run a little over $5 per car. Not bad, until I started punching in the numbers on a calculator to convert my whole collection. Will have to wait a while yet, but aesthetically they do look 100% better than rapidos. Just add these conversions to my "someday goal". (I've never been very patient)
I work around my patience by working in batches of 4 to 10 cars each. I think I converted about 200 cars so far. Half of which sold handsomly on ebay. I estimate I have about 50 RTR cars remaining to convert when they fail, luckly they have the newer metal spring on them and not the crappy Bachmann 1996 couplers everyone loves to el-cheapen a kit with.
You know, if I was Athearn and I sit looking at my sales figures seeing all that money going to Proto 33" wheels and to Kadee Couplers... I would want to negotiate with these two companies and include these items for a few dollars into each of thier products and build it right the first time, matching the gauges and standards out of the box. Stop wasting the customer's time trying to save a dollar or two on a kit. The bottom line, revenue might actually improve.
Im not a tree-hugger, but our landfills are choked with these crappy plastic couplers and wheels... 500 years after we are dead and gone, the people are going to sit and ponder those items and wonder what the hell they were used for while the Prototype couplers in real life trains have long since oxidized and returned to the earth.
Cederstrand wrote: Just looked at Micro-trains and it looks should run about $4.50 per car (for certain trucks if bought in bulk), while others will run a little over $5 per car. Not bad, until I started punching in the numbers on a calculator to convert my whole collection. Will have to wait a while yet, but aesthetically they do look 100% better than rapidos. Just add these conversions to my "someday goal". (I've never been very patient) Rob
Convert a few cars half-way. A rapido on one end and an MT at the other. That way you can run trains with mixed couplers while you 're in the proccess of changing over, you don't have to do it all at once, start with the ones that give you the most trouble.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Have read lots about couplers on various forums.......and this one about body mounted couplers.....seems as if body mounts are best.....I work in N sacle.......what would you suggest as a good kadee coupler for body mount......and how do I go about installing them?....relatively new so any advice will be appreciated.
Sam
Safety Valve wrote: Well, Ive a stack of Kaydee 148 whiskers waiting for the crappy ones to fail. (And they will) It's too bad the manufactors refuse to invest a few dollars and install Kaydees right from the factory.to discriminate in future rolling stock purchases based on what I call the "Hassle factor" the fixing of shoddy work. The less potential for it the more likely I will buy that boxcar.
Well, Ive a stack of Kaydee 148 whiskers waiting for the crappy ones to fail. (And they will) It's too bad the manufactors refuse to invest a few dollars and install Kaydees right from the factory.
to discriminate in future rolling stock purchases based on what I call the "Hassle factor" the fixing of shoddy work. The less potential for it the more likely I will buy that boxcar.
translation: You want someone else to pay the $2.00 so you don't have to?
You wan't something for Free - So does the manufacturer! InterMoutain products come with Kadee's. How many do you have? You get what you pay for, and vice-versa.
Buyers of Brass haven't gotten any couplers with their expensive $200 - $600 purchases for years. It would seem that most of the complaints come from low-end buyers.
At leaset they aren't using horn hook couplers.
Don Gibson wrote: Safety Valve wrote: Well, Ive a stack of Kaydee 148 whiskers waiting for the crappy ones to fail. (And they will) It's too bad the manufactors refuse to invest a few dollars and install Kaydees right from the factory.to discriminate in future rolling stock purchases based on what I call the "Hassle factor" the fixing of shoddy work. The less potential for it the more likely I will buy that boxcar.translation: You want someone else to pay the $2.00 so you don't have to?You wan't something for Free - So does the manufacturer! InterMoutain products come with Kadee's. How many do you have? You get what you pay for, and vice-versa.Buyers of Brass haven't gotten any couplers with their expensive $200 - $600 purchases for years. It would seem that most of the complaints come from low-end buyers.
I dont mind paying the 2.00 or whatever as long they are installed correctly. In this age of 400 dollar Sound/DCC engines with dummy front couplers really **** me off.
Sometimes I think about ditching this crap and go back to O gauge where all couplers are one height and need a anchor to break.
brothaslide wrote: At least they aren't using horn hook couplers.
At least they aren't using horn hook couplers.
That's a good point!
I personally have no preference on couplers;as long as it is a knuckle coupler, it's good!
Yes, E-Z mates and McHenrys do fail me. I really hate the new small ones they put on the Walthers Platinum Line Cabooses and the Athearn GP38's. It's not that they look weird or anything, but they are always a pain in the butt to couple to a E-Z mate if the coupler is just a little bit of center.
I do only buy Kadee #5's when I go to the LHS, as they are nice, and I am not going to go the cheap way with E-Z mates.
But, as long as it's a knuckle, I have no problem with them on my equipment. I don't want to have to pay extra to get Kadee couplers on my cars when I don't care.