VAPEURCHAPELON wrote:I can't see those [swear word removed my Bergie ] Big Boy and Challenger models any longer! As others stated, every "new" Big Boy PREVENTS variety. Every more of these drops the chance of production of other NICE and MORE USEABLE engines closer to zero. The hype of those big UP engines is breathtaking. Soon the lost world of steam in reality will be lost at model railroads, too. The industry is to suggest us that UP engines of course are the must-haves, and all the others go more and more to history... Many of you could say if I don't want UP then don't post here, but in my eyes the situation is that serious that I hope a little that others will come to my side and ignore these models. I am really angry.
And another...
Bergie
Bergie wrote:Why must we continue to use swear words to get our point across? Please read our rules: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/974532/ShowPost.aspx Bergie
Why must we continue to use swear words to get our point across?
Please read our rules: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/974532/ShowPost.aspx
Because the civilized language doesn't help. I tried many years. Sometimes some harsh words are necessary to awake a certain group of people - and sometimes this really helps!
But yes, I agree that I have to accept the forum rules. I simply forgot them when I was angry. Please excuse. I will take more care.
I can see why someone might shrug "Oh great another Big Boy", but I can't see why one would get all hot-and-bothered by it. I have one, an old Rivarossi version. It is not prototypical for my layout, looks ridiculous on the curves, but the boys love it and want to run it all the time. I can't say I blame manufacturers for producing a model that seems to have such wide appeal.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 wrote:I can't say I blame manufacturers for producing a model that seems to have such wide appeal.
I can't say I blame manufacturers for producing a model that seems to have such wide appeal.
BUT WHY DOES THAT LOCO HAVE SUCH WIDE APPEAL? WHY? WHY? WHY?
simon1966 wrote: I can see why someone might shrug "Oh great another Big Boy", but I can't see why one would get all hot-and-bothered by it.
I can see why someone might shrug "Oh great another Big Boy", but I can't see why one would get all hot-and-bothered by it.
From viewing your pictures, you appear to model diesel era. To put in prespective, lets say all the manufactures are only building EMD SD45T-2. You'd be mad too. Even I am mad, and I model Sherman hill area!!!!
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: simon1966 wrote: I can't say I blame manufacturers for producing a model that seems to have such wide appeal. BUT WHY DOES THAT LOCO HAVE SUCH WIDE APPEAL? WHY? WHY? WHY?
simon1966 wrote: I can't say I blame manufacturers for producing a model that seems to have such wide appeal.
Because it is firmly entrenched in US RR lore.
bb4884 wrote: simon1966 wrote: I can see why someone might shrug "Oh great another Big Boy", but I can't see why one would get all hot-and-bothered by it. From viewing your pictures, you appear to model diesel era. To put in prespective, lets say all the manufactures are only building EMD SD45T-2. You'd be mad too. Even I am mad, and I model Sherman hill area!!!!
I'm more transition era. So what you are saying is that there are very few Steamers on the market except for all the Big Boy models that are available? I'm not sure I follow, BLI/PCM have over 20 steam locomotives either available now or for pre-order. Add in Bachmann, Rivarossi/Hornby, IHC, Athearn, MTH and there are literally dozens. I would have said that the availability of good HO steam has improved dramatically in the last 5 years.
In the case of this Blue Line model, it is not as if BLI has been channeling its resources away from other projects for this. It appears very much as if they are trying to tap into an additionl revenue stream from work they have already done.
I have to agree with Simon. I don't see how PCM producing a Blue Line version of the Big Boy is a negative. Now I don't model that era, prototype, or type of locomotive. And I probably won't buy one myself. But I could certainly get excited at the idea of owning a Big Boy pulling a 50 car train on a club layout - or a 70 car train double-headed (watch out CudaKen, I'm becoming like you.)
The only downside I see for PCM is slow sales due to already-mentioned market saturation. But it's not really any new resources involved, either.
Meanwhile, I'm truly grateful to all of you buyers of Big Boys and other big steam. It is your $$ that have encouraged manufacturers to produce for the smaller markets (1900-era Americans, die cast and plastic HOn3 locos in my case). Every successful steam loco production and sales encourages production and sale of another steam loco model. Sure is a change from the past when the only non-brass available was hold-overs from '50s and '60s tooling produced by Mantua, MDC, and Bowser, and the occasional plastic model by Rivarossi.
just my thoughts
Fred W
I have the Trix Big Boy and the Lionel Challenger models. I can actually run them on my "mainline" which has a minimum radius of 30", however I just display them simply because I like 'em. I like them because they are the biggest locos and they always light up conversations when friends come over to the house. They are beautiful steam locos.
I don't see what the big magilla is here over another example being manufactured. If you like big steam locos, Big Boys are pretty cool.
Mastiffdog wrote:If you like big steam locos, Big Boys are pretty cool.
If you like big steam locos, Big Boys are pretty cool.
Not correct: I like big steam locos. But I do NOT like UP Challengers and Big Boys because they have nothing special in appearance to make them beautyful. No white driver edges and running boards, running boards even are interrupted at half the length, square cab, etc. Then come the voices stating that they look powerful. But here, too, I don't agree. They don't look powerful - and they even WERE NOT as powerful as one should expect by their size. They even were the wrong engines for the job UP had them to do - accelerating dieselization.
But I like Virginian's AE, or NP's Z-5, or DM&IR's M-3/M-4, C&O's H-8, P&WV's 2-6-6-4s, Reading's 2-8-8-0s, B&O's 2-8-8-0s, Great Northern's N-3 and R-2, among many others, not counting here the many rigid frame large steamers. But definitely NO UP articulateds.
So aside from being nothing special in appearance to make them beautyful. And the fact that they do not have white driver edges and running boards, and that the running boards even are interrupted at half the length, and that they have square cab, That they don't look powerful - and they even WERE NOT as powerful as one should expect by their size. And that they were the wrong engines for the job UP had them to do - accelerating dieselization. They are pretty cool!
I'm thinking that one of them is not in your future.
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote: Mastiffdog wrote: If you like big steam locos, Big Boys are pretty cool. Not correct: I like big steam locos. But I do NOT like UP Challengers and Big Boys because they have nothing special in appearance to make them beautyful. No white driver edges and running boards, running boards even are interrupted at half the length, square cab, etc. Then come the voices stating that they look powerful. But here, too, I don't agree. They don't look powerful - and they even WERE NOT as powerful as one should expect by their size. They even were the wrong engines for the job UP had them to do - accelerating dieselization. But I like Virginian's AE, or NP's Z-5, or DM&IR's M-3/M-4, C&O's H-8, P&WV's 2-6-6-4s, Reading's 2-8-8-0s, B&O's 2-8-8-0s, Great Northern's N-3 and R-2, among many others, not counting here the many rigid frame large steamers. But definitely NO UP articulateds.
Mastiffdog wrote: If you like big steam locos, Big Boys are pretty cool.
It is not whether I am correct or you are correct. I simply shared my opinion as you did yours. We just happen to disagree and that's okay. No one has to be right or wrong. Just be happy with what locos you enjoy.
VAPEURCHAPELON, would you have time to post PIC of the engines you listed? As far as why I like them, they are big and to me look powerful. Funny you like the trim on the wheels and walk ways, my self I don't. Latter when I detail my BLI Hudson I will be removing the white trim.
As far as the Real Life Big Boy, it made 3000 HP. Is that not about what current engines make?
Have you ever had a chances to see one in person? I am lucky and happen to live with in 40 miles of UP 4006. Few in person PIC.
May be I am just a little nutty but when I was in the enginer seat and had my hand on the thottle I could all most still feel the power of the sleeping giant.
This engine was all so there. Under cover it looks big, well it is. But the Big Boy made it look like a 13 year old teenager.
By the way LHS is taking back my Spectum and giving me a driffrent one. Crossing my finguers on the next one.
Simmon, hope to make it over some day. How do you like yours, pull well?
Big Boy Ken Posting Again
I hate Rust
Bergie wrote: Smoke wrote: rrinker wrote: Great, yet ANOTHER Big Boy. OK, since BLI/PCM already did it they can easily strip some details and make a Blue Line version, but still... I don't understand why everyone wants one of these. There have been more variations made then there were actual locomotives. They are too big for the typical smaller home layout, and only one railroad owned them. Oh well. --RandyHow many [swear word removed my Bergie ] Big boys do we need??!!! Why do they keep producing these????!!! Don't they realize sooner or later people are gonna stop buying them???!!! This has better be the last big boy. We need to start seeing different locos other than the big boy!!!!!! Why must we continue to use swear words to get our point across? Please read our rules: http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/974532/ShowPost.aspx Bergie
Smoke wrote: rrinker wrote: Great, yet ANOTHER Big Boy. OK, since BLI/PCM already did it they can easily strip some details and make a Blue Line version, but still... I don't understand why everyone wants one of these. There have been more variations made then there were actual locomotives. They are too big for the typical smaller home layout, and only one railroad owned them. Oh well. --RandyHow many [swear word removed my Bergie ] Big boys do we need??!!! Why do they keep producing these????!!! Don't they realize sooner or later people are gonna stop buying them???!!! This has better be the last big boy. We need to start seeing different locos other than the big boy!!!!!!
rrinker wrote: Great, yet ANOTHER Big Boy. OK, since BLI/PCM already did it they can easily strip some details and make a Blue Line version, but still... I don't understand why everyone wants one of these. There have been more variations made then there were actual locomotives. They are too big for the typical smaller home layout, and only one railroad owned them. Oh well. --Randy
Great, yet ANOTHER Big Boy. OK, since BLI/PCM already did it they can easily strip some details and make a Blue Line version, but still...
I don't understand why everyone wants one of these. There have been more variations made then there were actual locomotives. They are too big for the typical smaller home layout, and only one railroad owned them. Oh well.
--Randy
How many [swear word removed my Bergie ] Big boys do we need??!!! Why do they keep producing these????!!! Don't they realize sooner or later people are gonna stop buying them???!!! This has better be the last big boy. We need to start seeing different locos other than the big boy!!!!!!
oops! didn't mean to break the forum rules.
-Smoke
cudaken wrote: As far as the Real Life Big Boy, it made 3000 HP. Is that not about what current engines make?
Well, after we all get our Big Boys and run them for a while, we'll probably do the same thing that we all did when we all got our UP challengers and ran them for a while:
Sit back and say, "Hot Darn, that's one BORING looking big steamer."
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite wrote:Well, after we all get our Big Boys and run them for a while, we'll probably do the same thing that we all did when we all got our UP challengers and ran them for a while: Sit back and say, "Hot Darn, that's one BORING looking big steamer."Tom
I beg to differ. I'm surprised at some of the indifference here - I think they have beautiful lines. Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I think the N&W Y6b's are interesting, but homely. They look like they ran down the ugly track and hit every tie. And Ken, you're right. I've been next to a Big Boy several times, and they make me feel tiny - and I'm 6'3". Based on the number manufactured and the number sold, I'd say I'm not in the minority. People who don't even model UP buy them just because they're impressive and legendary. If the old Rossi's with the big flanges are selling for over $200 on eBay, I don't think the demand is going away anytime soon.
I was bitten by the Big Boy bug when I was 11, and it bit hard. Seeing 4012 at Steamtown in Vermont was all it took. I think I finally got over it when I was in my twenties, but I still like them. At this point, however, I'd rather see a Yellowstone get the green light if we're talking big steam, or a nice Atlantic or some decent pre-1900 motive power.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
cudaken wrote: VAPEURCHAPELON, would you have time to post PIC of the engines you listed? As far as why I like them, they are big and to me look powerful. Funny you like the trim on the wheels and walk ways, my self I don't. Latter when I detail my BLI Hudson I will be removing the white trim. As far as the Real Life Big Boy, it made 3000 HP. Is that not about what current engines make? Have you ever had a chances to see one in person? I am lucky and happen to live with in 40 miles of UP 4006. Few in person PIC.
Big Boy developed about 6300 hp on tender drawbar, not 3000. But this still was way too low for an engine this size. UP got a speed potential way above their demand, most of their life Big Boy ran about 20 to 30 mph, not 80, thus the ACTUAL power output perhaps between 3000 and 4000 hp. Plus low thermal efficiency because of the firebox not behind, but ABOVE the drivers - lacking sufficient depth. Same with the Challengers (not only UP).
Compare the 6300 hp with the 6600 N&W's A developed, or the 5800 of the Y-6. Both of these are about 100 tons smaller than Big Boy! And N&W used to run these brutes at the design speed - where they ACTUALLY GET that hp! Big Boy was used to run up Sherman Hill with maybe 25mph, and drift down the other side at 50. N&W's Y-6 had the potential of 50mph, and over the entire speed range they could handle significantly more tonnage than Big Boy - and actually did so. Plus they were much more efficient.
Unfortunately I did never see a real Big Boy, but of course I am interested to do it.
I cannot post pics here, but I could email many to you. Contact me through email, and I will get the ball rolling.
And: I don't say UP's articulateds are ugly, but they simply have nothing of special appealing to me.
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote:Big Boy developed about 6300 hp on tender drawbar, not 3000. But this still was way too low for an engine this size. UP got a speed potential way above their demand, most of their life Big Boy ran about 20 to 30 mph, not 80, thus the ACTUAL power output perhaps between 3000 and 4000 hp. Plus low thermal efficiency because of the firebox not behind, but ABOVE the drivers - lacking sufficient depth. Same with the Challengers (not only UP).Compare the 6300 hp with the 6600 N&W's A developed, or the 5800 of the Y-6. Both of these are about 100 tons smaller than Big Boy! And N&W used to run these brutes at the design speed - where they ACTUALLY GET that hp! Big Boy was used to run up Sherman Hill with maybe 25mph, and drift down the other side at 50. N&W's Y-6 had the potential of 50mph, and over the entire speed range they could handle significantly more tonnage than Big Boy - and actually did so. Plus they were much more efficient.
Oh boy, this is a debate that's been raging for decades. It's been discussed next door in the Trains forum: What's so special about Big Boys?
There are some super steam statistics from an old issue of Trains, organized here by starting tractive effort: http://www.railfan.net/supersteam/supersteam.cgi?bystartte
It is my understanding the Big Boy would never have been able to work the Coal the way the Y6b did and the Y6b is just too slow and short ranged to deal with the very large trains of the day at the schedules demanded. I may be wrong I dont know.
Maybe we can cool it on the Big Boys for a while... 10 years or so until the next generation goes "OOh, ahh! over the next release"
SteamFreak wrote: twhite wrote: Well, after we all get our Big Boys and run them for a while, we'll probably do the same thing that we all did when we all got our UP challengers and ran them for a while: Sit back and say, "Hot Darn, that's one BORING looking big steamer."Tom I beg to differ. I'm surprised at some of the indifference here - I think they have beautiful lines. Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I think the N&W Y6b's are interesting, but homely. They look like they ran down the ugly track and hit every tie. And Ken, you're right. I've been next to a Big Boy several times, and they make me feel tiny - and I'm 6'3". Based on the number manufactured and the number sold, I'd say I'm not in the minority. People who don't even model UP buy them just because they're impressive and legendary. If the old Rossi's with the big flanges are selling for over $200 on eBay, I don't think the demand is going away anytime soon. I was bitten by the Big Boy bug when I was 11, and it bit hard. Seeing 4012 at Steamtown in Vermont was all it took. I think I finally got over it when I was in my twenties, but I still like them. At this point, however, I'd rather see a Yellowstone get the green light if we're talking big steam, or a nice Atlantic or some decent pre-1900 motive power.
twhite wrote: Well, after we all get our Big Boys and run them for a while, we'll probably do the same thing that we all did when we all got our UP challengers and ran them for a while: Sit back and say, "Hot Darn, that's one BORING looking big steamer."Tom
Steamfreak--
You're absolutely right, and I agree, it is a difference of opinion. For myself, I prefer my articulateds with all of the 'guts' hanging out, like the 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, the SP AC's, Missabe Yellowstones, all of the GN and NP articulateds and the Rio Grande L-131's. Front-hung pumps, visible Elesco or Worthington FWH systems, lots of piping and all the gegaws that to me mean Power and Business. And I know a lot of guys who prefer the 'cleaner' lines of the UP articulateds. To each his own, and I mean that sincerely.
I just think that the market has been over-flooded with UP Challengers and Big Boys. Now, if someone were to come out with the EARLY UP Challenger, or one of the UP 2-8-8-0's, I'd probably perk up--they were pretty distinctive.
twhite wrote: SteamFreak wrote: twhite wrote: Well, after we all get our Big Boys and run them for a while, we'll probably do the same thing that we all did when we all got our UP challengers and ran them for a while: Sit back and say, "Hot Darn, that's one BORING looking big steamer."Tom I beg to differ. I'm surprised at some of the indifference here - I think they have beautiful lines. Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I think the N&W Y6b's are interesting, but homely. They look like they ran down the ugly track and hit every tie. And Ken, you're right. I've been next to a Big Boy several times, and they make me feel tiny - and I'm 6'3". Based on the number manufactured and the number sold, I'd say I'm not in the minority. People who don't even model UP buy them just because they're impressive and legendary. If the old Rossi's with the big flanges are selling for over $200 on eBay, I don't think the demand is going away anytime soon. I was bitten by the Big Boy bug when I was 11, and it bit hard. Seeing 4012 at Steamtown in Vermont was all it took. I think I finally got over it when I was in my twenties, but I still like them. At this point, however, I'd rather see a Yellowstone get the green light if we're talking big steam, or a nice Atlantic or some decent pre-1900 motive power. Steamfreak--You're absolutely right, and I agree, it is a difference of opinion. For myself, I prefer my articulateds with all of the 'guts' hanging out, like the 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, the SP AC's, Missabe Yellowstones, all of the GN and NP articulateds and the Rio Grande L-131's. Front-hung pumps, visible Elesco or Worthington FWH systems, lots of piping and all the gegaws that to me mean Power and Business. And I know a lot of guys who prefer the 'cleaner' lines of the UP articulateds. To each his own, and I mean that sincerely.
Tom, I agree - I love all of the rococo piping and appliances on steamers, and the more the better, but I still love the lines of the Big Boys. The Challengers not as much, since they're shorter and the proportions don't seem quite right.
What makes steamers so interesting is that they wear all of their moving parts on the outside, which is why I could never stand streamlining them. I guess I'm a purist after all.
Vapeurchapelon, perhaps you should one of these "smiley" faces instead of blue language:
Mark
selector wrote:Why couldn't BLI market a Yellowstone or an Allegheny? I like the BB, but I already have its smaller cousin, the Challenger, and that is enough of that. Not to say it isn't all it is meant to be as a model; it's the Lionel version and I love it. But....binder, dundat.
Amen. I think the BLI/PCM/FDT needs a little time to catch up for now. But a B&O EM-1 definately would merit consideration.
Safety Valve wrote: selector wrote:Why couldn't BLI market a Yellowstone or an Allegheny? I like the BB, but I already have its smaller cousin, the Challenger, and that is enough of that. Not to say it isn't all it is meant to be as a model; it's the Lionel version and I love it. But....binder, dundat.Amen. I think the BLI/PCM/FDT needs a little time to catch up for now. But a B&O EM-1 definately would merit consideration.
Safety Valve--
As I understand, the EM-1 was the lightest of the Yellowstones at about 124,000 lbs TE, but my, oh my, was that one SWEET looking locomotive. I'll join you on that--it would be really nice to see one of those. About the only ones I've ever seen were made by Akane back in the '60's, and I have heard--though I don't know for sure--that they were simply built on the Akane Missabe M-3/4 wheelbase (Baldwin built both prototypes). However, the Akanes I've seen looked really nice--and if they were anything like the Akane Missabes, they could probably be used to raise and lower the garage door, they were probably THAT powerful.
How about something like a decent HO SD9 or GP9? The P2K versions look okay but run poorly, and the Athearn versions have the non-scale width hood. The Atlas version GP9 runs nice, but has the sidesills molded onto the chassis ... what a pain! It does look like some Blueline SD9s may be on the way ... I'm waiting for an SP version!