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Three mantras to stunt your modeling growth! Locked

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, May 28, 2007 8:10 AM

 Midnight Railroader wrote:
Perhaps the "it's my layout, I'll run anything I want" folks and the "100% accurate rivet counters" represent two ends of a very wide spectrum.

 

Only those that lack understanding and fear change would think such thoughts..

What part don't you understand just because a modeler wants detailed locomotives and era specific locomotive and cars ARE NOT rivet counters?

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, May 28, 2007 8:15 AM

 reklein wrote:
I think Spacemouse and I must've belonged to the same club. We had a guy who would not ,not could not,understand why you had to reverse the polarity on a reverse loop.I actually got into a shouting match with em. Mostly out of frustration. He'd ask me why it had to be that way and I explained it more loudly each time and he still couldn't understand. Evil [}:)]I guess the point here might be keep an open mind, but not as open as a liberal democrat. which having said that will probably open a new can of worms.Wink [;)] By the way why hasn't Poteet weighed in on this one?

 

I really hate that when that happens regardless of the modeling or operation subject being discuss.

Some times I think "moron" and excuse myself.

Larry

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Posted by Canondale61 on Monday, May 28, 2007 8:25 AM
 BRAKIE wrote:

 Midnight Railroader wrote:
Perhaps the "it's my layout, I'll run anything I want" folks and the "100% accurate rivet counters" represent two ends of a very wide spectrum.

 

Only those that lack understanding and fear change would think such thoughts..

What part don't you understand just because a modeler wants detailed locomotives and era specific locomotive and cars ARE NOT rivet counters?

Again it is the wording that is wrong, "rivet counter" to me is not bad but only someone that has "grown" in the hobby and enjoys and derives pleasure from being able to replicate accuratly the prototype. Midnight railroader is only trying to describe the broad spectrum of this hobby using the terms that have been placed forth by others. In a way I feel AggroJones is a "rivet counter" or detail oriented modeler because he weathers his rolling stock with such great detail and realism (by the way love that cab forward steam loco of yours so real). It may be that rivet counter should be dropped from our language since it appearss to insult some, and be replaced with detail oriented.

 

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Monday, May 28, 2007 8:41 AM
 BRAKIE wrote:

 Midnight Railroader wrote:
Perhaps the "it's my layout, I'll run anything I want" folks and the "100% accurate rivet counters" represent two ends of a very wide spectrum.

 

Only those that lack understanding and fear change would think such thoughts..

What part don't you understand just because a modeler wants detailed locomotives and era specific locomotive and cars ARE NOT rivet counters?

I never said they were.

I do want detailed locomotives and era-specific locos and cars, yet I am not a rivet-counter.

Why so angry?

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, May 28, 2007 9:01 AM

 BRAKIE wrote:
How about the muggles? Won't they see things that might put Hogwarts in jeopardy?

How can seeing a red train in the Pacific Northwest in 1885 possibly put Hogwarts in Jeopardy? Hogwarts is in England, man.

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, May 28, 2007 10:40 AM
 SpaceMouse wrote:

 BRAKIE wrote:
How about the muggles? Won't they see things that might put Hogwarts in jeopardy?

How can seeing a red train in the Pacific Northwest in 1885 possibly put Hogwarts in Jeopardy? Hogwarts is in England, man.

 

Well that was once pointed out by Professor Snape over a flying car..Also platform 9 3/4 is hidden from muggles.So if the Hogwarts Express went chugging down the line muggles would notice it even in the North-West..After all there is a sign on the locomotive stating "Hogwarts Express".

Larry

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Posted by jsoderq on Monday, May 28, 2007 11:16 AM

I thought this might cool off or get locked. So, here's my 2 cents (actually more as I worked for large manufacturers for 9 years.

I think the start of this thread is Dave seeing a problem that is not there. So far the best reply was Steamfreak. There is no reason why a modeler has to advance. If people are happy with what they have, what business is it of others.  People forget this all goes back to the "toy trains" of a bygone era. We all have different levels of interest and learn what we wish along the way. I seriously doubt that anyone is held back by what is posted on the Internet. Sometimes feelings are hurt (totally unnecessary) but holding someone back - no way.

Brakie was right on the money when he said the improvements in models were a natural evolution. The "prototype" modelers who post all the time online have NOTHING to do with the evolution of models. It is the modelers who vote with their money. That is the "better mousetrap " economic rule. There are a few experts who sometimes consult with companies, but few of them post here or elsewhere. It is simply better models sell better and bring more money to the company. Advances in technology - Cad cam, EDM, better mold components, better molding machines have enabled the better products to be made - at a cost the market will bear.

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, May 28, 2007 11:43 AM

I disagree.  I understand you may be a manufacturer, but I will say this:

Love that prototypical Pennsy stuff out there?  It's mostly through the efforts of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society's Modeling Committee working hand-in-hand with manufacturers like BLI/PCM, N Scale Architect, Bowser, etc. that you see accurate Pennsy material.

Now, these guys are hardcore proto-nuts.  But we PRR modelers in all scales own them a debt of gratitude for their persistance.

You know, I get 5-10 unsolicited e-mails a week asking me about how I did this, or how I did that, or just in general about how much they like my website and my layout.  I know I'm not a "big name" in this hobby, but I guess I'm doing something right.  The three dogmas I mentioned at the start do not get one there.

I feel that in any endeavor, one should always try to raise the bar higher.  Otherwise, what's the point?  If my modeling were no better today than it was when I was 10, I don't think I'd be having any fun.

I stand by my original assertion, that some here are attempting, perhaps inadvertantly and perhaps unsuccessfully, to hold others back with this mantras.  They each have a use, but they tend to be overused.

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Posted by Pruitt on Monday, May 28, 2007 12:37 PM

Dave,

Not to be argumentative or ire-rousing, but it seems to me your comments regarding modeler's license is more an objection to someone using modeler's license in a way that YOU wouldn't than it is anything else. I'm trying to model the CB&Q in Wyoming in the 1930s-1945 or so. I'm also trying to be relatively true to that location and era, and generally am being successful, I think. But - my wife has a thing for paint scheme of the Atlantic Coast Line passenger equipment of the late 1950s to early 1960s. So occasionally an ACL E8 pulling ACL passenger cars runs through the layout. making stops in what passes for Wyoming towns. Implausible? You bet, and we're both aware of it. The train doesn't come out of staging often, but it does come out. I'm not about to ban the equipment from the layout and effectively ruin her enjoyment of it because that train in Wyoming is fantasy. But at the base of it, ALL our layouts are fantasy. Anyone who comes to see my layout and makes some down-the-nose crack about that train can leave immediately or be thrown out. A layout visit is a show by the owner, not an invitation to criticism by the holier-than-thou.

But you know, the down-the-nose, unsolicited criticisms from others is generally where the defensive responses "It's my layout" and "rivet counting is bad" come from, NOT from someone who specifically asks for comment and criticism. If someone posts a shot of something they've done and I see a possibility for improvement, I compliment a good part of the work, and MAY ask if I can make a suggestion. IF they answer yes, then I'll make it. I've done that more than once on this forum. The problem is the goon with the Queen Mary-sized ego who thinks everyone want HIS critique of their work (I almost said HIS/HER, bit I've never seen a woman in the hobby do this), and responds to a "Look what I've been doing!" post with a dissertation on how the prototype didn't do it, how the bridge wouldn't hold up under its own weight in real life, or whatever. Solicited critiques are great, if done with and degree of propriety (and they almost always are). The unsolicited ones get the "It's my layout - go pound sand!" and "^%&$ rivet counter!" mantras.

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, May 28, 2007 12:56 PM

Mark,

You're quite right.  I have little patience as well for those heavy-handed with unsolicited criticism.

As for your modeler's license, that's OK by me!  Hey, I'm the guy who has made-up names for his towns on a real stretch of the PRR.  Moreover, my Middle Division has 2, instead of 4, main tracks.

Your specific example is not really what I'm getting at.  I like to break out my GG-1 now and again, too...  but I have no catenary!  That's modeler's license!

I'm a fan of fantasy schemes, too.  I remember in another thread or forum some really neat modern wide-nose power with New York Central lightning stripes on them.  I don't mind!

No, I'm talking about the extremes.  Modeler's license is a wonderful and a useful thing.  But it can be a stumbling block.  For example, it can be the excuse that keeps somebody's layout littered with vertical track and retaining walls, or running roof-walk equipped freight cars in interchange service in the modern era as a matter of regular operation.

You know, I've been wanting to get a Thomas the Tank Engine in N to cut in as a snapper on a coal drag when I take my layout to shows.  That's modeler's license!

The difference is, I recognize it as an anomaly and would not have it there, say, on ops night or in a magazine spread.

Maybe I am being to ate-up about this.  My original gripe was related to the idea that some sometimes discourage advancement in others by citing these mantras.  I still think that's not good.

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Posted by jsoderq on Monday, May 28, 2007 1:10 PM
Well Dave, I hate to throw water on you fire, But you are not correct about the PRRTHS . I have been a member for very many years and have all the info I can find about the PRR. If you follow what has been going on, there is great dissatisfaction because there is very little coordination with the committee. They have pointed out major errors and provided info  on many projects, much of which has been ignored,
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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, May 28, 2007 1:18 PM

Okay, wait a miute.

I know there have been problems with manufacturers ignoring inputs from PRRT&HS.  But it doesn't happen every time.  I seem to remember in TKM that BLI took their input into their second K4 release.  Since I don't model HO I can't verify that, but that seemed like a success story.

Are you saying that PRRT&HS has done nothing for improving the fidelity of Pennsy models?  Even if their contributions don't affect 100% of the Pennsy models out there, I can't be convinced that PRRT&HS has not had a very positive influence on the Pennsy model market.

I still think it's the demand for more accurate stuff that has brought out the better models and drawn down the curtain on the generic, low-detail, cheapo models.  Who wants more accurate stuff?  Modelers who care about car type, scheme, and era!  These are the people that some would label "rivet counters" because they read build dates and know, for example, that PRR didn't own a PS1 boxcar (yet Atlas makes tons of em...Confused [%-)])...

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Posted by Canondale61 on Monday, May 28, 2007 1:26 PM
 Brunton wrote:

Dave,

Not to be argumentative or ire-rousing, but it seems to me your comments regarding modeler's license is more an objection to someone using modeler's license in a way that YOU wouldn't than it is anything else. I'm trying to model the CB&Q in Wyoming in the 1930s-1945 or so. I'm also trying to be relatively true to that location and era, and generally am being successful, I think. But - my wife has a thing for paint scheme of the Atlantic Coast Line passenger equipment of the late 1950s to early 1960s. So occasionally an ACL E8 pulling ACL passenger cars runs through the layout. making stops in what passes for Wyoming towns. Implausible? You bet, and we're both aware of it. The train doesn't come out of staging often, but it does come out. I'm not about to ban the equipment from the layout and effectively ruin her enjoyment of it because that train in Wyoming is fantasy. But at the base of it, ALL our layouts are fantasy. Anyone who comes to see my layout and makes some down-the-nose crack about that train can leave immediately or be thrown out. A layout visit is a show by the owner, not an invitation to criticism by the holier-than-thou.

But you know, the down-the-nose, unsolicited criticisms from others is generally where the defensive responses "It's my layout" and "rivet counting is bad" come from, NOT from someone who specifically asks for comment and criticism. If someone posts a shot of something they've done and I see a possibility for improvement, I compliment a good part of the work, and MAY ask if I can make a suggestion. IF they answer yes, then I'll make it. I've done that more than once on this forum. The problem is the goon with the Queen Mary-sized ego who thinks everyone want HIS critique of their work (I almost said HIS/HER, bit I've never seen a woman in the hobby do this), and responds to a "Look what I've been doing!" post with a dissertation on how the prototype didn't do it, how the bridge wouldn't hold up under its own weight in real life, or whatever. Solicited critiques are great, if done with and degree of propriety (and they almost always are). The unsolicited ones get the "It's my layout - go pound sand!" and "^%&$ rivet counter!" mantras.

 

Mark

Thank you, you have expressed what I have been trying to say.This is a hobby and supposed to be enjoyable and give us pleasure.

Thank you

Kevin

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, May 28, 2007 1:33 PM

Ah, yes...  that could be a thread in and of itself.

Many folks equate prototype accuracy with no fun.

Actually I've had far more fun in the hobby since I quit freelancing and went prototype.

I'm not saying that's right for everyone.  But many people are afraid to try prototype modeling because they've been told by others that it's too restrictive and not fun.

I say, try it for yourself.  And don't assume those of us who change out trucks on boxcars because they're not correct are somehow having less fun!

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Monday, May 28, 2007 2:00 PM

Thanks for starting this thread.  It has been most thought provoking, and I learned a new word - mantra.  I had heard it before but had to look it up.   I think that the mantras you list are not neccesarily phases and the list isn't complete.  I'll bet we could come up with several more.  Then following selector's train of thought, I believe these only become points of contention when they cross over from a mantra to a dogma.   I love to watch new people's epiphanies about different elements of the hobby as their skills and knowledge expand and develop.

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Posted by jsoderq on Monday, May 28, 2007 3:12 PM
No Dave either I wrote it wrong or you didn't read it right. What I was trying to say is that the committee is frustrated because in many cases the manufacturer has ignored the input from PRRTHS. The same is true of input from  these boards. They cannot take credit because  in almost all cases the info is not applied. People like to believe they are influencing the manufacturer when in fact they are not. The driving force in the market is money. As the saying goes, "money talks, BS walks". The companies are persuaded by the dollars we spend.
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, May 28, 2007 3:22 PM

IT seems to me that "It's your layout, and you can do what you want." starts as a concession and morphs into a battle cry--with the effect Dave is pointing out.

Where I see it used is when a newbee asks if they can run such and such with so and so because when they were overly enthusiastic they bought whatever popped off the shelf or looked cool on eBay. They argue how they can make it work. Then the the old vet says. "It's your layout you can so what you want."

Then you get a bunch of pile ons agreeing that it you can do what you want on your layout. The pile ons then take the phrase and apply it to everything.

As Brakie has pointed out, this type of reasoning creates an excuse to create implausibility through laziness--as he says it is under the guise of fantasy.

The phrase has appropriate and inappropriaate usasges.

 

Chip

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, May 28, 2007 3:40 PM

Ah, Chip...

You nailed it.  Exactly.  You and Brakie both.

I need to have you guys write my threads!

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Posted by NevinW on Monday, May 28, 2007 4:15 PM
Dave:

I agree with your original statements about the 3 mantras. I see it all the time. - Nevin
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Posted by Pruitt on Monday, May 28, 2007 8:32 PM
 Dave Vollmer wrote:
Many folks equate prototype accuracy with no fun.

Actually I've had far more fun in the hobby since I quit freelancing and went prototype.

I'm not saying that's right for everyone.  But many people are afraid to try prototype modeling because they've been told by others that it's too restrictive and not fun.

I say, try it for yourself.  And don't assume those of us who change out trucks on boxcars because they're not correct are somehow having less fun!

I am in absolute agreement with you on this, Dave. I have had a tremendous amount of fun researching my own prototype and locales. The satisfaction of finding a critical but evasive bit of info is second to (almost) nothing else! Following a prototype also enhances layout planning (and makes it MUCH more difficult at the same time). When I was designing my own layout, I had this seemingly minor problem wherein the water flow in the model Wind River Canyon was backwards from the real one, taking into account the track grade that followed the river downstream. I just COULDN'T accept that deviation from the real world. I must have spent fifty or more hours reworking the plan to finally get the river to flow TO Thermopolis, as it does in real life, rather than AWAY from the town. I still savor that little mental victory.

To those who are toying with the idea, I'd say jump in and give it a shot. You may be amazed at the amount of fun the research is! But then, if you find it isn't your cup of tea and you're not enjoying the restrictions it may place on your modeling, feel just as free to jump right back out! I for one would only feel a bit of disappointment if you're model railroading the "correct" way, rather than "your way. After all, it's not just your layout (Evil [}:)]), but it's your hobby Thumbs Up [tup] as well.

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Posted by tangerine-jack on Monday, May 28, 2007 9:51 PM

I'm going to be Mr. Switzerland here and agree with everybody.  It is your railroad so you can do what you please, and we all have to bow to the truth of modeler's license or we would only be able to represent about ¼ mile of prototype track and perhaps one industry in a 30x30ft space.  At the same time a good number of us on the forum have experimented over the years and found that change and innovation keep us interested, I myself have moved more towards a prototype research approach and left behind the "run what you brung" ideals.  Rivet counting is not a bad thing, forcing others to do it is.  Forcing others to ignore prototype and accuracy is also very bad as some of us get great enjoyment in hunting down the arcane information on the exact color of the widget pin in June of 1932 or something.

I understand what Dave is trying to say, that the "if it feels good do it" phrase has been overused, overworked and no longer has any real meaning.  We all know this, if it didn't feel good we wouldn't be doing it in the first place!  What Dave is trying to say (I'm pretty sure) is to not reflexively give out excuses for inaccuracy that may not be helpful in advancing an individual modelers progress.  Some will progress, some will not.  I feel certain the ones that don't progress are not in the hobby long enough to matter, but don't deny that person the input of your experience.  State what you know from experience and let the reader decide what to do with that information. 

I've learned, progressed, regressed, forgotten and relearned many things over the years to get to the philosophical point I am at now with MRRing.  If asked a question, I will respond in the manner of my current level of skill (crude as it may be), not with my skill level of 30 years ago.  Naturally now I would encourage a modeler, regardless of the size of the pike, to create a history for his railroad, a name and a purpose along with a time period before even buying the first piece of track.  10 years ago I would have given much different advice. 

The bottom line is that the forums are like a buffet, you take what you can digest, leave the rest.  Keep coming back and you will sample new items and find that after a while your taste will change.  This is natural and healthy; if you find that you miss the simple days of just playing with trains, simply get yourself a Garden Railroad, that's what I did!  I can count rivets in HO, and run whatever I daggon well feel like in the garden.   Nobody ever said you could only have one railroad!

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 28, 2007 11:32 PM

Dave, I understand your point, but people are going to do what they are going to do, we can't legislate the development of modeling skills and knowledge.  You are obviously an accomplished modeler with a desire to continue your personal growth and achievement in the hobby.  My advice to you is rather than get frustrated by the "mantras" as you have defined them, continue to find a way to give back to those who seek your advice and knowledge.  You'll feel a whole lot better about things doing that rather than focusing on what kind of limitations some hobbiests choose to impose upon themselves.

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:09 AM
 Mastiffdog wrote:

Dave, I understand your point, but people are going to do what they are going to do, we can't legislate the development of modeling skills and knowledge.  You are obviously an accomplished modeler with a desire to continue your personal growth and achievement in the hobby.  My advice to you is rather than get frustrated by the "mantras" as you have defined them, continue to find a way to give back to those who seek your advice and knowledge.  You'll feel a whole lot better about things doing that rather than focusing on what kind of limitations some hobbiests choose to impose upon themselves.

You have a very valid point.

But then again there are times when you want to slap someone upside the head and yell, "Wake up idiot." I used to want to do that with Billy Idol. I've settled down a bit since then. 

 

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:45 AM

Chip said: But then again there are times when you want to slap someone upside the head and yell, "Wake up idiot." I used to want to do that with Billy Idol. I've settled down a bit since then. 

=====================================================================

Thats the way I feel with some modelers from the intermediate group that KNOWS better and especially to the "my way or no way" types.

IMHO "its your layout" is the battle cry of the unlearn and causual modeler and serves NO real purpose in answering SERIOUS questions other then a pat on the head.

 

Larry

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:20 AM

Brakie,

I happen to know that I am one of those people that some would like to slap upside the head.

I find that my ignorance knows no bounds.

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:45 AM
Chip,Cut yourself some slack..You have a williness to learn and should go far.I seen that in some of your topics and replies.

Larry

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Posted by Pruitt on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:45 AM

Sounds like we're getting into the usual chasmic divide between those who believe that model railroading is a personal activity that one can pursue as they please, and those who apparently believe it should be as regimented as Nazi Germany was! These threads usually end up that way.

"Slap someone upside the head?!" Who do you people think you are, that you would even consider the idea of demanding that someone give up his/her choice in order to take up yours instead?! Did God himself annoint YOU the dictator of the modeling world? Model railroading in some way other than the way YOU do it is not the moral equivalent of murder or some such thing! Quit acting like it is and get a life! Dunce [D)]

Sheesh!

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:57 AM
 Brunton wrote:

Sounds like we're getting into the usual chasmic divide between those who believe that model railroading is a personal activity that one can pursue as they please, and those who apparently believe it should be as regimented as Nazi Germany was! These threads usually end up that way.

"Slap someone upside the head?!" Who do you people think you are, that you would even consider the idea of demanding that someone give up his/her choice in order to take up yours instead?! Did God himself annoint YOU the dictator of the modeling world? Model railroading in some way other than the way YOU do it is not the moral equivalent of murder or some such thing! Quit acting like it is and get a life! Dunce [D)]

Sheesh!

I think you are taking my statement a tad seriously. In fact, I've learned to walk away from what I assume to be idiotic behavior. On the other hand, if a person asks for help, I might go the extra mile to convince them to expand their thinking. If they choose another path, once again I walk away.

Perhaps the "slap upside the head" was humor in poor taste.

 

Chip

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:05 AM

 BRAKIE wrote:
Chip,Cut yourself some slack..You have a williness to learn and should go far.I seen that in some of your topics and replies.

I am not particularly self-deprecating. However, I know my knowledge of model railroading has limits. It's one of those "the more you know" clichés.

On the other hand, I can recall several instances where people were ready to slap me upside the head--particularly when I was trying to design a layout and thought the yard ladder was the yard lead. People would make comments and I would screw up the redesign. I give the people who stuck it out with me a lot of credit, I got a good design because I listened to what they had to say and let go of my sense of "rightness." It was about a month later I saw that a drawing I based my assumptions on was abbreviated, and it was assumed that you knew what a yard lead was, even though it was not pictured. Suddenly my layout made sense--and by then I had it built.   

Chip

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Posted by jasperofzeal on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:11 AM

Dave,

I applaud your effort in trying to open up some eyes with what can stunt modeling growth.  I'm not a teacher (as I'm sure this is the frustration they feel as they are trying to educate or young ones) but you can't touch them all.  Unless a person is ready to expand their knowledge and modeling style, telling them about researching to be more prototypically accurate, not mixing eras when it comes to equipment, or etc., will fall upon deaf ears.  Like it or not, it is their layout, it is their property, and ulitmately, it is their money.  I think that Brunton's earlier post about him running an ACL passenger train in his layout to please his wife, illustrates the basic nature of this hobby: personal enjoyment.  Enjoyment is subjective because as much as a lot of people see "rivet counting" as a bad thing, for some it is a method for personal enjoyment as well.  Some people like steam engines and modern freight as well, what's the problem with enjoying running both?  Do we really need to just choose one style?  Again, I applaud your efforts, but for some modelers, just running a train around an oval is enough for them to enjoy at this time.  Hopefully you (and others with experience) will still be around when the time comes for the "newbies" to truly focus.  Hopefully you can walk them through the process of being more "prototypical" and teach them the other side of enjoyment from this hobby.  All we can ask, and I'm summing up your original post, is to keep an open mind when it comes to this hobby and don't let others discourage you from learning more.

TONY

"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)

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