You made one of the most logical statements I have ever heard... "I prefer to have engines and swithces that work well together"... If that does not sum it up... nothing does.
As far as the book goes - i found it to be of no use... Latin is easier to comprehend than it was.
Thanks for yet another good reply...
Brian
Thanks bro... I appreciate the advice and encouraging words!
Don Gibson wrote: GearDrivenSteam wrote: Don Gibson wrote: Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC..Mr. Gibson, this just isn't true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs. OK. How do you modify the 'electrofrog (or 'power routing' turnouts in general) from shorting out on DCC? (You left out the use of insulated rail joiners or cutting gaps in the track).Since I use mostly Shinohara, I'm ASKING.
GearDrivenSteam wrote: Don Gibson wrote: Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC..Mr. Gibson, this just isn't true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs.
Don Gibson wrote: Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC..
Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC.
.
Mr. Gibson, this just isn't true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs.
OK. How do you modify the 'electrofrog (or 'power routing' turnouts in general) from shorting out on DCC?
(You left out the use of insulated rail joiners or cutting gaps in the track).
Since I use mostly Shinohara, I'm ASKING.
Mr. Gibson, I do not modify them at all, and I do not have shorts.....at least not yet. I am just very careful how I approach the turnout, and how it is thrown. Being that my layout is a small point to point, that may have something to do with it, but I don't know. As I increase the number of trains run at once, I am sure I will find the point at which shorts will be a problem. Oh, and I do use insulated rail joiners on the frog rails.
Mastiffdog wrote: This has got to be the hottest and most confusing topic aside from solving world peace.What I find interesting (and I well might be the only person who does) is that Peco HO Code 83 Insulfrogs ARE Power Routing and the Walthers/Shinohara HO DCC Friendly "Green Label on the Box" Code 83 Turnouts are also insulated frogs but ARE NOT power routing. So, both brands share the common DEAD frog, but one is power routing, the other is not. I'm no electrical wizard, so this stuff is my worst nightmare - all I want to do is succesfully run my trains without having my locos either short out or stall (I got both that do both, a 2-8-2 steamer that SHORTS, and an Atlas Short wheel base switcher that STALLS - two different kinds of problems). I sure would like to solve both of these problems so I can enjoy the layout more.
This has got to be the hottest and most confusing topic aside from solving world peace.
What I find interesting (and I well might be the only person who does) is that Peco HO Code 83 Insulfrogs ARE Power Routing and the Walthers/Shinohara HO DCC Friendly "Green Label on the Box" Code 83 Turnouts are also insulated frogs but ARE NOT power routing.
So, both brands share the common DEAD frog, but one is power routing, the other is not.
I'm no electrical wizard, so this stuff is my worst nightmare - all I want to do is succesfully run my trains without having my locos either short out or stall (I got both that do both, a 2-8-2 steamer that SHORTS, and an Atlas Short wheel base switcher that STALLS - two different kinds of problems). I sure would like to solve both of these problems so I can enjoy the layout more.
DAWG: According to people I talk to that have them, 'Insulfrogs' do NOT power route and Electrofrogs DO. Repeat after me: "Insulfrogs do NOT power route!
Why should you be concerned? You have Walthers. You want to sleep better?
With Walthers, Peco, & Atlas, you should not be getting a short, however sometimes RP-25 wheel width crosses +/- trackage and the old 'nail polish trick' works. There is also a possibility that your 2-8-2 is stalling, not shorting.
Just because someone says Route 'selected' means "powered", or a factory worker puts stuff in the wrong box, they wouldn't do that, would they?
Reminds me of the old song: 'It 'aint Necessarily So'.
My apologies to Gershwin - and anyone else,
Don Gibson wrote: According to people I talk to that have them, 'Insulfrogs' do NOT power route and Electrofrogs DO. Repeat after me: "Insulfrogs do NOT power route!
According to people I talk to that have them, 'Insulfrogs' do NOT power route and Electrofrogs DO. Repeat after me: "Insulfrogs do NOT power route!
I have to disagree, Don. I have exclusively Peco Insulfrog turnouts on my layout. They do power route. They do.
They're N scale, though. But I'd be surprised if the standard were different for HO.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
This has gotten silly. I just metered a Code 83 Peco streamline. I powered the rails from the points end only...via the incoming rails, not the points themselves. Through route lined, no power beyond the frog except on the through route. Diverging lined, 8.5 volts on the meter on the diverging route....beyond the frog!
Could it be any more definitive?
DAVE:
i prefaced my remork with "people I talk to - that have them"... and In this case, HO.
In the case of 'Insulfrog' or 'Insulated frog', HOW exactly does it power rout?
I'm beginning to think this is a 'Semantics' thing.
In my earlier reply to this question, Don, I stated that these turnouts have power strips running under the frog. There are two. One runs from the through closure rail, just before the plastic insulating spacer, under the frog, and then connects to the through frog rail beyond the plastic spacer. Same for the diverging route, a thin metal strip connects the two rails on that route. So, the spacers isolate the frog from power, but the route selected sends power along the route rails at the frog rail end.
The frog has four spacers, one on each rail? That means the frog has no way of getting power as manufactured. You'd think the frog rails, then, would be as dead as the frog. Not so. Those thin strips in grooves in the plastic bed under the frog connect each point with their mate frog rail. The points get no power unless they are touching their stock rail. Once the power is transferred down the point rail, it must also get to the frog rail because of those thin metal strips that bridge the dead frog...from below.
Brian In Arkansas wrote:And I... am beginning to regret ever having asked the damn question...
No it's the Manufactors who need to regret making products that are in need of excruciating forum anaylisis under a microscope of many.
These forums has already saved me from wasting my very limited budget on CRAP products many times over the last few years.
Brian, and Accord1959,
I think most of the above information is probably correct, especially Selector's post just above, but I have the feeling that it may not answer your questions. If you think you still don't know what to do, you may send me a copy of your layout plan, the make and model number of the turnouts you have already bought, whether you plan to use DC or DCC, and a list of your locomotives and other pieces of rolling stock that take power from the rails (for example, a passenger car with lights inside).
I would also like to know whether you plan to control the turnouts by hand or electrically, and what kind of operations you plan to do. By that I mean do you want to run one train on a main and do switching in a yard at the same time? Or run more than one train at a time and control them separately?
I will send you back an exact wiring diagram showing feeders, insulated track joint locations, reversing switches, etc., as well as guidelines on how to operate it to do what you said you wanted to do.
Don W.
Don Gibson wrote: DAVE:i prefaced my remork with "people I talk to - that have them"... and In this case, HO.In the case of 'Insulfrog' or 'Insulated frog', HOW exactly does it power rout?I'm beginning to think this is a 'Semantics' thing.
It is not a 'Semantics' thing. Insulfrog's are Power Routing in the EXACT same way as Electrofrogs. The people you talk to are misinformed and don't even know how their own turnouts operate.
The worst part is you keep repeating wrong information even though other people are trying to tell you that you are wrong.
I'm not sure, but it probably has something to do with the wires underneath the frog.
I talk to people who have them too... in this case, myself!
Brian In Arkansas wrote: Peco code 83, hand throwing and they only are "live" in the "straight" or main position.
Peco code 83, hand throwing and they only are "live" in the "straight" or main position.
I GUESS that's what they call "Route Selection".
Atlas' internal jumpers pass current to both tracks.
Walthers also.
(Peco 83 to one (the 'straight) track only)?
selector wrote: In my earlier reply to this question, Don, I stated that these turnouts have power strips running under the frog. There are two. One runs from the through closure rail, just before the plastic insulating spacer, under the frog, and then connects to the through frog rail beyond the plastic spacer. Same for the diverging route, a thin metal strip connects the two rails on that route. So, the spacers isolate the frog from power, but the route selected sends power along the route rails at the frog rail end. The frog has four spacers, one on each rail? That means the frog has no way of getting power as manufactured. You'd think the frog rails, then, would be as dead as the frog. Not so. Those thin strips in grooves in the plastic bed under the frog connect each point with their mate frog rail. The points get no power unless they are touching their stock rail. Once the power is transferred down the point rail, it must also get to the frog rail because of those thin metal strips that bridge the dead frog...from below.
So 'Insulfrog' is like the Atlas. (dead frog + jumpers?)
How do we explain Brian in Arkansas' switch, powering only the "straight" route? "Defective"?
... The worst part is you keep repeating wrong information even though other people are trying to tell you that you are wrong. - mesowsun
Funny ... I seem to keep asking questions you haven't answered.
NO, Insulfrog is NOT like Atlas.
Yes, Atlas like Insulfrog, have jumpers at the frog to bypass the dead frog, but Atlas also has "jumpers" or "contacts" where the points pivot. These contacts get power from the outside rail and pass it onto the the points at the pivot point and also pass the power to the "closure rails" and down each diverging track. That is why both routes are always live.
Insulfrog only gets power to the diverging track though the points where they touch the outside rail. There are some small extra contacts under the points to allow for a better connection.
(Click to enlarge)
NO, Brian's turnout is not defective.
Both Peco Insulfrog and Electrofrog turnouts are power routing.
Brian doesn't understand power routing and how he needs to supply track power. That is his only problem.
Why do you all find it so hard to believe?
I am not saying that you are wrong, msowsun. I am saying that Don could still be right! None of us knows what Brian has in his hands. We have not seen it, we have not tested it. It could, in fact, be defective. Brian, and we, will not know until he tests it to determine if it is working properly.
You may have it nailed...that Brian simply needs to understand the turnout's limitations when placed in his wiring diagram. No argument there. But, we are all just guessing here, and have argued endlessly as to which type of turnout this is. I think I contributed to the settlement of that debate, but not to the state of this particular item. If a solder is broken, he won't get the performance that we insist it should afford him. It will still be a head-scratcher for him...poor guy. I can remember when I was trying to figure this stuff out myself. I had to meter turnouts in order to paint a picture for me. Words didn't always work.
Brian In Arkansas wrote: Peco code 83, hand throwing and they only are "live" in the "straight" or main position.Basically, the Peco turnouts work, or remain "live" in one position only.What you just said makes sense to me... I guess I just dont understand why I will need so many feeder lines. I mean, they serve a purpose - but why cant the entire line be "all live"?
Basically, the Peco turnouts work, or remain "live" in one position only.
What you just said makes sense to me... I guess I just dont understand why I will need so many feeder lines.
I mean, they serve a purpose - but why cant the entire line be "all live"?
There is no guesswork here.
If you read Brian's posts he says that he has a Peco code 83 Insulfrog.
In the past he used Atlas turnouts that were always live. The only problem he has now is that when the turnout is straight, the diverging track is dead.
SO ...
What I see from mesowun's diagram is a power routing switch (turnout) with a dead frog - period!
negatives: point/closure rails depend on metal/metal contact to supply power. (Rail oxidizes). Ie 'Iffy'.
positives: 'dead' area (frog) is greatly reduced to prevent 'stalling' (engines with short electrical pickup).Ie Good.
conclusion: It IS a power routing routing design, with a plastic frog, that depends on spring pressure on metal/metal to power it's track throw.
Isn't this what KATO is doing, Bill?
Selector: Agreed. A meter says it all. Apparently too few modelers have one.
Mesowson: You didnt credit your source for the diagram, but thanks.
My take: As a power routing freak for years, I have learned to be suspicios of metal points touching stock rails to supply power, but as a 'power routing' switch designed to work on DCC (Insulfrog will work). How long, remains to be seen.
msowsun, it may appear that I am being obtuse or argumentative. I don't intend for that to be.
Has Brian said anywhere so far that when he lines this particular turnout for the diverging route, he gets power beyond the frog on the contiguous turnout? I don't recall seeing that. So, I am not as sanguine as you about the condition of this turnout. So far, per the quote you have of his above, you and I know that his through route does indeed power the entire through route, on the contiguous turnout, but beyond the frog. Once he confirms that his turnout is performing as advertised on both routes, I will concede your point. Until then, I continue to urge him to meter the turnout powered at the points end so that he can report the facts to us.
-Crandell
There is no power beyond the frog...
I ordered 2 turnouts from Walthers today. Here is a description of them... I hope that these will resolve the issue and I can return the 17 Peco's I have...
Micro Engineering:
#6 Left-HandWalthers Part # 255-14705, p. 305 Walthers 2007 HO Scale ReferenceHO scale, $18.95, currently in stock at Walthers...
Flex-Trak turnouts are now DCC and analog (standard DC) compatible right from the box with no modifications necessary. These turnouts feature scale-size, wood-grained plastic ties that match Micro Engineering Flex-Trak, American-style spike heads and tie plates, all-metal frog and guard rails, rail brace and slide plate details, snap-action sprung switch points, non-operating switch stand and a super detailing kit.
Hopefully, this will put an end to all of this
:)
Brian,
Allan gartner's "Wiring for DCC" website suggests that they are all live like the Atlas turnouts you are familiar with.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_ME_BK.htm
"This type of turnout is typical of Atlas, Kato, Roco, the new Micro Engineering turnout, and the new Walther's turnout."
msowsun wrote: Brian,According to Allan gartner's "Wiring for DCC" website, the diagram suggests that they are all live like the Atlas turnouts you are familiar with.http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_ME_BK.htm"This type of turnout is typical of Atlas, Kato, Roco, the new Micro Engineering turnout, and the new Walther's turnout."
According to Allan gartner's "Wiring for DCC" website, the diagram suggests that they are all live like the Atlas turnouts you are familiar with.
I could swear that I just saw you recommend Brian talk to a "hobby shop professional". And that was an excellent recommendation. And it is the key argument why brick and mortar train shops serve a purpose and not everything is appropriate for the internet.
A good train shop with a pro behind the counter = a good value over a discounted price.
Brian in Ark:
I predict that the M.E./Walthers desingn. with jumpers fore & aft of the frog, will be more dependable than the Peco with it's 'hybrid' design. Other than that, they're both good.
(Caveat): Make sure sure your wheels are in-gauge(tighter tolerances).
You did good. Congratulations!
Mastiffdog wrote: I could swear that I just saw you recommend Brian talk to a "hobby shop professional". And that was an excellent recommendation.
I could swear that I just saw you recommend Brian talk to a "hobby shop professional". And that was an excellent recommendation.
I edited that part out of my post when I saw that the new Micro Engineering turnouts were "All Live". I think he finally found what he was looking for: A good quality turnout that needs no more wiring than an old Atlas snaptrack turnout.
msowsun wrote: Mastiffdog wrote: I could swear that I just saw you recommend Brian talk to a "hobby shop professional". And that was an excellent recommendation. I edited that part out of my post when I saw that the new Micro Engineering turnouts were "All Live". I think he finally found what he was looking for: A good quality turnout that needs no more wiring than an old Atlas snaptrack turnout.
Excellent. Now we can get to laying track and running trains eh?
I am familiar with the Tortquise (Turtle?) switch machine and it uses slot 1 and 9 for power to operate. If such a machine was to be installed on this switch, where would the rest of the switch connections be at the Turtle?
Don Gibson wrote:negatives: point/closure rails depend on metal/metal contact to supply power. (Rail oxidizes). Ie 'Iffy'.conclusion: It IS a power routing routing design, with a plastic frog, that depends on spring pressure on metal/metal to power it's track throw.
Agreed. The only problems I have had with these TOs (running DC) is the oxidation problem on the points. So I run power wires to all the diverging routes, which is what the OP was wondering about.