Having gotten back into the hobby a few months ago, I had to "re-learn" all I had remembered from nearly 30 years ago - and I bough the wrong turnouts.
For some reason I thought that insulated made sense, but I have not been able to figure out how to wire them and want to just get "plain old" switches.
Are electrofrog turnouts what I am wanting and will they work? I do not have the time or patience for welding,wiring etc with the other kind... I just want them to work!
Thanks,
Brian
They BOTH work the same with MODIFICATION... but
Electrofrogs are supposed to activate (power) ony the selected route. Insulfrogs have all routes with the same polarity... but
Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC.
.
Brian,
Peco turnouts are not "Plain Old Switches" like Atlas.
What problem are you having? I 'll bet you have some dead spots, Right?
I have been using Insulfrog's for 20 years and mine are all Power Routing. I'll bet yours are power routing as well. This means that the power will only go to the direction the turnout is thrown.
This is handy for parking an engine on a spur, but it can cause problems on a double ended siding or double track area. It is pretty well mandatory that you place your feeder wires on the "points" side of the turnout so that power is always routed down the track.
Here is an example of a small layout showing where you must pt the feeders. Note that the feeders always feed into the "points" end of the turnout.
In this case you can see how each feeder location feeds power to the points end of two different turnouts. This way there will always be power at every part of the layout.
Let me know if this fixes your problem.
I appreciate the comments and ideas... I think I need to find someone locally that can show me what it is I am not able to figure out... The photo helps, but I still do not have any idea what anyone is talking about.
I have 17 of them, 16 still in the package I will just return.
Thanks
What are you trying to do with the Turnout that makes you have problems?
Are you trying to use Walther's Code 83 DCC Friendly turnouts or the Peco ones?
Consider a loop of track. If you didnt isolate the frog, the points will create a short. Either a plastic frog, insulated frog or gaps cut around the frog will do the job of protecting the points.
Are you hand throwing the turnouts? Or using a machine to throw it for you?
Check out my post here where I discuss DCC friendly turnouts and which is best on a DCC layout, live frog or dead frog turnouts?
Briefly, dead frog turnouts ('insulfrog') will have less chance of a short, and fewer shorts are preferred on a DCC layout so you don't shut down big sections of the layout.
However, not all equipment can handle dead spots in the track so you may need to use live frog turnouts ('electrofrog') even though they are more work to install and will be more likely to get a short.
You can read all about it at the link above, to see the full explanation and reasoning for why, in my experience, insulfrog (dead frog) turnouts are preferred on a DCC layout.
With insulfrogs, there's no wiring. I just install them and solder the rail joiners on the points end and I'm done. With electrofrogs, the frog gets power from contacts tied to the points, and you need to install separate contacts since the point contacts in the Peco turnout won't last.
In most cases, you need to install insulated rail joiners in the two rails just past the frog on an electrofrog turnout to avoid shorts (this is not needed on an insulfrog). Picking up a copy of Kalmbach's Basic Wiring for Model Railroaders will be a good investment if turnout wiring is giving you problems.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Peco code 83, hand throwing and they only are "live" in the "straight" or main position.
I guess that I need a basic education in wiring for starts, and I do have a copy of the Kalmbach book...
Are the Walthers code 83 DCC "friendly" turnouts any good? They sound what I am looking for...
What is the difference in hand throwing vs machine throwing? I cant imagine there would be one.
Basically, the Peco turnouts work, or remain "live" in one position only.
Thanks for the reply's !
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Brian, your Insulfrog turnouts are "Power Routing" or "Route Selective". That is why they are dead when you select the diverging route.
To fix the problem you just have to have your feeder in a different location. Or add more feeders.
If this seems like too much work, then you could buy Atlas and you would have an "All Powered" or "All Live" turnout like you used to use.
But you should give the Peco Insulfrog a chance. They are great turnouts and if you ever decide to go to DCC, they are already very DCC compatible.
What you just said makes sense to me... I guess I just dont understand why I will need so many feeder lines.
I mean, they serve a purpose - but why cant the entire line be "all live"?
As far as DCC goes - if I cant figure out something as simple as basic wiring... I doubt I will ever understand (whatever) DCC is... by then it will probably be replaced with something even more complex.
Maybe I just need to stick with the old wind ups
LOL
Brian:
Actually, it's a fairly common misconception that DCC is more complex than DC wiring--in actuality it's easier, e.g. you don't have to put in gaps in order to separate different subpower districts/sidings, as all the mains, yards, sides, etc. can be powered all of the time, since the locos are individually controlled, and not just controlled by the track power. Other sources to consider: Andy Sperandeo's book(by Kalmach) on wiring, and www.wiriingfordcc.com.
Jim
Don't get frustrated. You'll get the hang of it! Many of the rest of us learned what we know about electricity from model railroading rather than understanding electricity first.
Forget DCC for now. Get some simple booklets on how to wire for beginners or how to build a model railroad for beginners. There are always a few in most any hobby shop or RR flea markets. If you can understand how water flows thru a pipe you can understand enough of electricity to wire a model railroad. The diagrams in the booklets will make things clearer than many thousand of words.
Remember, its supposed to be fun!
Mike
Brian In Arkansas wrote:What you just said makes sense to me... I guess I just dont understand why I will need so many feeder lines. I mean, they serve a purpose - but why cant the entire line be "all live"?
In practice, Pecos don't always make a good connection to the diverging route, so you need extra feeders to make sure there's power beyond the turnout. Where you put the feeders is determined by where you need the "booster" power on your layout to be.
Even if you used Atlas turnouts, you'd probably still have to put extra feeders on tracks to make sure you had sufficient power in all sections. Suppose you had 100 yards of track with your power pack hooked up to one end. You would have power routed to the very end, but the resistance of the track is such that your engine would probably stop maybe 20-30 yards down the line.
I am DC, so I cannot speak for what's needed for DCC.
In fact, Peco code 75 and 83 Electrofrog turnouts can be made extremely reliable with no dead spot at the frog AND virtually short-proof, equally good with DC and DCC.
The procedure is to:
1. cut the jumpers between the frog and fixed point rails
2. connect jumpers between the stock rails and fixed point rails in the gaps provided in the plastic. This step is not mentioned in the Peco application sheet, but should be.
3. power the frog from external contacts, such as on a Tortoise or Bluepoint machine
Now you have a turnout with points power coming from two sources, not totally dependent on point-to-stockrail contact. There are no opposing polarity rails in close proximity at any place in the turnout, not at the frog or moving points. And with a powered frog, you have no dead spot for old engines with single pickups to stall on.
Note that additional work is needed with Peco 100 Electrofrogs. They are an older design, and new gaps must be cut in them, which may intimidate some.
I have 35 installed code 75 Electrofrogs and 130 locos of every type. I run both DC and DCC power and engines. All my cars have metal wheels. Because of these mods, the Pecos have been completely trouble free.
Hal
Thanks for an excellant answer, and if I had know the diagram provided by Peco was missing information "This step is not mentioned in the Peco application sheet, but should be"... That would have answered the problem 6-months ago.
I wished there were someone local that could actually show me what to do so that I could then take care of the 17 turnouts I have...
Anyone want to make some $$ on the side and do it for me?
Hi Brian,
Please disregard everything that hdtvnut said in his post.
THIS IS ONLY AN OPTIONAL MODIFICATION FOR ELECTROFROG TURNOUTS WITH DCC.
1) You don't have Electrofrog turnouts
2) You aren't using DCC
3) Even with DCC, it is only optional. Most people don't bother with this mod.
You do not need to do any of the modifications he is talking about. He his talking about modifying Peco Electrofrog Turnouts. YOU don't even have Electrofrog turnouts. This modification is used to make Electrofrog's super reliable when using DCC.
I think we must be confusing you with the term "feeder". Lets just call it "track power". With the Peco INSULFROG turnouts that you have, just a little extra thought is required as to where you put your "track power" connections.
Most of the time it will be no problem. But in some cases you might have a dead section withoutout power if the turnouts are aligned a certain way. I think you said you already found that out. If you get a dead spot from the "power routing", just add another "track power" connection.
Have you checked out Wiring for DCC ? There are great descriptions and diagrams of both insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts.
On the insulfrog turnout, if you power (attach feeders) to the incoming rails and both sets of diverging rails you should end up with an excellently performing turnout.
Glenn -- PRR in Georgia
If you want to make life easier for yourself, get Insulfrogs. Electrofrogs work a little better for slow steam not stalling on the frogs, but the frogs need to be powered from a remote switch as well as the points, what a HASSLE! As well as the hassle of cutting gaps, insulatiing them and so on. The people who want Electrofrogs don't need advice. If you need advice, you should get Insulfrogs!!
Peco Insulfrogs are the simplist. They work right out of the box, no mods needed and you can switch them by hand, no remote switch (either manual or electrical) needed. They ARE power routing so you will have to drop power feeders on the diverging routes unless you WANT dead track for parking and engine. If you go the dead track route, realize the switches aren't the most reliable and sometimes won't route power due to bad contacts at the points. They really SHOULD make them non-power routing. You can make them non-power routing with a couple of jumpers on the bottom. I have had some trouble with shorts at the frog, but it is manageable.
If you are inexperienced, just get Insulfrogs and don't worry about a lot of power feeds, you can drop power feeds later where you need them.
DC and DCC aren't really any different so far as switches go, except in DCC, dead track doesn't make any sense. I wired up my track and got DC to work, the switched over to DCC. I can swithc back and forth and my DCC system has DC over DCC so I can run my DC engine along with my DCC ones.
To be fair, though, insulfrog fan that I am, this hobby is always going to present its hassles. Even an insulfrog can go bad if the contacts or those tiny joiners between the points and closure rails get cruddy or decompose. You'll either have to replace the entire unit, or do the jumper soldering that so many find is eventually required.
I wish Shinohara and Peco would do something about the frog rail shorts immediately after the plastic barrier. As they are, they tend to give insulfrog turnouts a bad name in my opinion.
Don Gibson wrote: Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC..
Mr. Gibson, this just isn't true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs.
GearDrivenSteam wrote: Don Gibson wrote: Insulated (non polarized) Insulfrog turnouts are a must for DCC..Mr. Gibson, this just isn't true. Depending on what size motive power you are using, you may have better luck with electrofrogs. The largest loco on my roster is the Spectrum 28 ton climax. Even they don not like dead frogs. Using 0 4 0 critters and other short locos almost demands electrofrogs.
OK. How do you modify the 'electrofrog (or 'power routing' turnouts in general) from shorting out on DCC?
(You left out the use of insulated rail joiners or cutting gaps in the track).
Since I use mostly Shinohara, I'm ASKING.
This has got to be the hottest and most confusing topic aside from solving world peace.
What I find interesting (and I well might be the only person who does) is that Peco HO Code 83 Insulfrogs ARE Power Routing and the Walthers/Shinohara HO DCC Friendly "Green Label on the Box" Code 83 Turnouts are also insulated frogs but ARE NOT power routing.
So, both brands share the common DEAD frog, but one is power routing, the other is not.
I'm no electrical wizard, so this stuff is my worst nightmare - all I want to do is succesfully run my trains without having my locos either short out or stall (I got both that do both, a 2-8-2 steamer that SHORTS, and an Atlas Short wheel base switcher that STALLS - two different kinds of problems). I sure would like to solve both of these problems so I can enjoy the layout more.
And I may as well read about brain surgery when I refer to the famous "Wiring for DCC". Sorry, but I find that hard to follow.
This topic is going parallel with the other forum right now as well. Maybe one day I'll figure out this crazy puzzle...
Insulfrog just makes wiring easier, totally plastic frog, no power to it.
As long as your locos have a long wheelbase to pick power beyond the frog, no probs, its the small 4 wheel/6 wheel pickups you want an all rail frog for. The point is to prevent shorting.
Mastiffdog wrote: This has got to be the hottest and most confusing topic aside from solving world peace.What I find interesting (and I well might be the only person who does) is that Peco HO Code 83 Insulfrogs ARE Power Routing and the Walthers/Shinohara HO DCC Friendly "Green Label on the Box" Code 83 Turnouts are also insulated frogs but ARE NOT power routing. So, both brands share the common DEAD frog, but one is power routing, the other is not.I'm no electrical wizard, so this stuff is my worst nightmare - all I want to do is succesfully run my trains without having my locos either short out or stall (I got both that do both, a 2-8-2 steamer that SHORTS, and an Atlas Short wheel base switcher that STALLS - two different kinds of problems). I sure would like to solve both of these problems so I can enjoy the layout more. And I may as well read about brain surgery when I refer to the famous "Wiring for DCC". Sorry, but I find that hard to follow. This topic is going parallel with the other forum right now as well. Maybe one day I'll figure out this crazy puzzle...
I endured a trainset F7 for 20 years that only picked up on the front truck and powered the back truck. It stalled everytime I went through a cheap brass track and switch. Everyone else I knew had trains that glided through switches at any speed.
Call me scarred but I prefer to have engines and swithces that work well together. Maybe the last 20 years will be worth the pain of wiring the frogs.
I do appreciate your encouraging words, Mike.
Just wished that someone made a product that worked right out of the package... would make thing much simpler and much more fun!
I have read the books, read the e-mails... and I guess that it still escapes me as to what needs to be done... If I could watch someone do it, I would be able to then figure it out... more of a "on the job training" kinda guy here...