Disappointed with the GATS

[Anonymous]

I'm just home from the San Diego, California version of the Great American Train Show, or as it says in the blurb "The GATS". To say I was disappointed is an understatement. Never mind that admission and parking came to $14 or that the affair had a impoverished look and feel about it. What really irked me was the lack of anything interesting to see or spend money on.

As is my practice I made a list of items I was interested in buying: A large variety of 'craftsman kits' and such common items as drill bits and digital calipers as well as one or two reference books. A cross-section really. As is also my practice I included retail price and what I could buy it for on the internet.

Thus armed, I walked into the GATS. Let me say this is the first such affair I've attended in about 20 years, and what a change in two decades. The 50 or so exhibitors had a great assemblage of low-end RTR, 'blue box' offerings and piles of 'loss leader' 2fers. Junk in my estimation, or at least usless to me. Of those few items which were of interest to me all were at retail or over retail. The same can be said of the tool offerings, either import junk from such places as Pakistan or over retail US made.

Two specific examples: First, LaBelle trussrod combines and day coaches at retail, there is little call for these kits, they are both pricey and all wood in an era of plastic but I wanted them and looked them over. Call me cheap but I'm unwilling to pay current $30 retail for a kit so elderly its marked $5.95 on the boxend. Second example: I want a 1900s era 2-6-0. Another dealer had an old Roundhouse kit with an open frame motor priced at what I think was an astronomical $70. Need I say I passed on it without comment. Those two items were the only two on my list of over 20 items which I found on offer So much for my shopping.

The local model railroading clubs had various gauge layouts set up. As i made the rounds I made a point of making a complementary comment to one of the operators at each pike. What did I get in return? Either a noncommittal grunt or a 'yah'. In a period when the hobby is starved for new entrants I would expect more of a PR effort from those already in it. I did have one interesting short conversation with a teen who was thrilled to be allowed to help with the 'adults' layout operations.

One impressive exceptional example I should mention was the booth and display put on by Bragdon Enterprises. For those who don't know, Bragdon makes scenery molds and weathering products. Their representative was all arms and legs and enthusiasm and really knew his product line. His efforts were rewarded with the sales his efforts deserved.

So much for my experience. Here is the question: Was my experience typical of the current state of the art in train shows? Or are my expectations simply unrealistic in todays hobby scene? Should I simply shut up and order off the net and from the LHS and forget about the "not so Great American Train Show"?

Randy

[Anonymous]

Randy,

Was there anything positive that you walked away with? Maybe a good idea that you would like to try on your layout? Any helpful tips or tricks that you would like to share with us? Or do you really feel that the $14 - half the price of a 'K 'book - was wasted?

[Anonymous]

I attended a GATS a few weeks ago and was similarly disappointed. An awful lot of shirts and mugs and not much I was looking for.

[IRONROOSTER]

GATS doesn't show in Northern Va. anymore, but the last one was kind of disappointing. I think with so many shows that the dealers get spread out. The really good one I go to is the Great Scale Model Train Show north of Baltimore. It's a bit of a drive, but worth it. The Greenbergs that are close are okay, but tend to focus on three rail (Lionel, MTH, etc). I go to those because they are close and parking is free. But, I tend to see the same dealers over and over. Craftsman kits seem to be in short supply, but I think this reflects the RTR trend that is hot right now. Prices are a mixed bag from list to more off than I can get elsewhere. I enjoy both shows, but do most of my buying at the GSMTS. They always have several layouts in several scales and I almost always find something to buy.
Enjoy
Paul

[dave9999]

I'm going to the Pensacola, Fl show on December 27 & 28. I will report back
with my experience. I've never been to one, hope it's not to disappointing. Dave

[n2mopac]

I live in central Missouri and often attend GATS in both Kansas City and St. Louis. Both cities have a GATS twice a year. The problem is that combined with other local and regional shows there are too many of them. I hate to complain about too many shows, but with the large number of dealers in business in these areas and with 5 or 6 shows or swap meets a year there is notheing special about them. They were much better when there was only one big show each year and all the dealers and private traders set us shop at it. Then there was something for everyone to see and there was a real sense of competition in sales, etc. This is one case when less is definately more.
Ron

[nfmisso]

The GATS show this spring in OKC was a major dissappointment. Comrail (www.comrail.org) did contact GATS, but received no response about setting up a layout. The show in December 2002 put on by Comrail had four times the vendors, and layouts.

I am no longer in Oklahoma, and have not had an opportunity to go to a show since moving to Minnesota.

[Anonymous]

There are a variety of shows in MAryland, Greenburgs and others come to mind and I have had good experiences there. Timonium can be reached by light rail (Trolley, electric transit whatever you call it) from baltimore, and the venue is usually about 150 yards behind the station platform on the fairgrounds.

I recently went to the GATS in Little Rock, and I did find some Jaegar Loads for HO flats and gons for my future eletcric utility industry. I found alot of so-called collectible toys (some were very tempting) and alot of trains "stuff" ranging from Athearn kits on down to locomotives and books.

At the show what was useful to me was seeing some of the things I had forgotten about such as a little tiny N scale 2-8-0 shouting at high volume which can be heard 4 tables away. Or a Pink Lionel O Scale engine (Created as a attempt to get girls involved in the 70's)

They did charge for parking and I was not able to find some items specifically looking for and found much of the offerings at prices too high. An example was a y6b 2-8-8-2 from some 20 years ago for $170- I think retail was 100- back then. And a few tried to sell assembled "blue box" kits or similar cars at near today's RTR retail.

If I bought a kit and built it for $7.00 without any paint or superdetailing I probably would sell it for $4.50 or so assuming it was damage free. But 15, 20 and up? I dont see the justification.

Half of the floor was LEGO trains at 400 scale miles an hour I do not understand what scale they would be in but think it is properitory to Lego. Another issue I found was several families who were attracted to trains did not understand enough of the hobby (as yet) to avoid buying trains that probably will not perform to expectations. I kept my mouth shut and moved on thru, believing that everyone has a shot at the hobby and learning is the best way.

I made a point of not filling out a "registration form" because last year my mailbox was clogged by GATS's mail server with about 300 emails a day until my ISP cut it off. That was a problem. It will not happen this time, however I saw many folks filling out forms.

To sum up my experience, I saw everthing to see in 5 minutes and found a few loads at a good price. The rest can wait for another show.

Lee

[dharmon]

I was also at the SD GATS this weekend and was a little disappointed also. Our club had a layout displayed, so had I been required to fork over parking and admission, I think that "little" would have been a "rather". There were some great displays and I didn't have any problems talking with folks from other clubs. They all seemed quite friendly. The vendors were not quite what I was looking for though. Mostly Lionel and collector stuff. The HO was primarily RTR which is not really my thing. I prefer swap meets personnally. This is the second GATS I've been to, and quite frankly I wasn't overly impressed with either...but it beats nothing and some of the displays were rather impressive in my mind.

[AggroJones]

I gather that the GATS has gone down hill now. The last 2 shows I've been to have gottten worse and worse. Hopefully the upcoming one will be not as bad.

[Anonymous]

The last GATS show I attended was in KCMO in the fall of 2002 at H Ro Bartle Hall, didn't have to pay for parking, however was disappointed in the number of dealers and the inclussion of computer dealers. The dealers had some good items, however, not what I was looking for.
Ch

[CNJ831]

Randy - The short answer to your orginal post is, yes, this is what most train shows have become. Those shows that you (and I) recall from 20 years ago had bargains galore or at least dealers who would bargain with you. Likewise, there were always a plethora of older structure, car, and various craftsman kits spanning much of the hobby's history to be had. Often, too, locomotives of all vintages.

Those sorts of shows have, I'm afraid, past into history over the last decade and your experience of GATS (or most any other current show) being dominated by late run and RTR equipment, being offered at full retail or retail-plus by dealers who consider bargaining a dirty word, is now the standard. Older craftsman kits are considered collector's items by most dealers now and sell at a premium (FSM kits go for 2x-4x original list!). If your purpose is to find items at below usual retail price, stick to the net.

CNJ831

[cjcrescent]

I have a couple of things to say about the "quality" of the GATS going down. First, I've participated in 14 Gats this past year alone both as a vendor and with my club. So I've seen GATS from both sides.
For those of you who don't know it, GATS has changed their format for the shows. They no longer have a "core" of layouts or vendors that attend all the shows. The venues have changed as well. No longer are the shows limited to population centers of a million or more. Now they host shows in population centers of 100,000 or more. This means more shows, closer together in areas that may not of ever had shows before.
GATS , as a result, is relying more on localized dealers and clubs for filling the halls. If you attend a GATS show in your area and there aren't any layouts, clinics, or not very many vendors, don't blame the GATS people. Blame your local groups that didn't want to participate. This is where the layouts & clinics come from. GATS supplies no layouts or vendors, all they do is sell tables and invite local groups to attend, after securing a place to have the show. GATS also doesn't charge for parking, thats the local venue or city where GATS is holding the show.
Also attending GATS shows are, or are becoming, the full time occupation for the vendors. They either have full time hobbyshops where they live or they bring their "shop" to the shows. I'm not saying to blindly accept what they charge, just be aware that they are trying to make a living. Mostly they will stay within 350-400 miles of their home. Anyway to offset costs they may not have much in the way of total bargains. The three dollar Athearn from five years ago, may now be 7.50 MSRP and with a 20% discount 6.00 Results anyway is that a lot of the vendors are having to pay a lot more for gas, hotels and food. Plus they maybe lucky to have 1-5% new stock. By new stock, such things as latest releases, etc, provided of course that ,1. They made enough money,at the last show, to order new stock and 2. Their distributor(s) have what they want in stock. I have seen times where we, the guy I work with and me, wanted to get $3-5 thousand in new inventory but we were lucky if any of the four distributors we use had $250 of what we ordered.
To "blame" a "bad" GATS show on GATS itself misses the point of their having to rely on more local groups and vendors than in the past.

[Trainnut484]

I've attended the GATS shows at both Bartle Hall and American Royale here in the KCMO area, and I noticed almost half of the dealers are the same ones that sell at smaller area shows. I would like to see new dealers attend. Also, I've noticed more booths of t-shirts, mugs, posters, stickers...etc popping up. I would rather see more booths of fine locomotives and rolling stock thus creating competition and bargains. In other words, todays GATS leave much to be desired.

The most positive scene I saw at the last GATS here in KC was a WGH (Worlds Greatest Hobby) display booth. The people behind it were talking to a group of people about our great hobby. The internet is GATS' biggest competition, BUT bringing people into the hobby is something that is done better in person.

Hopefully the t-shirts, mugs and stickers are not the first and/or only items the newbies (and veterans of the hobby) see at GATS.

Take care

Russell

[Anonymous]

Well I've been to one GATS show when it eas in Des Moines IA. It has never been back since, thank god. But the funny thing is that when a model RR show does come to this state I never hear about it or when I do it's too late. The last show that came to my area was advertised at one grocery store. An 8 1/2 X 11" piece of paper on the door. I live in a town of 20,000 people.

Anyway I don't go to train shows anymore they are over priced arrogant and rude. I would rather spen my money on the two hobby shops I go to. In my opinion I wi***hey would end these shows. Alot of the people who run these or particapate either with a booth or display have such attitudes about them that I'm becoming a closet RR modeler.

But I do hope someone comes up with a train show that has some class and that knows that the customer is who is putting food in their mouths. This is just my opinion but I've never walked out of a show happy.


Thanks,
Jeremy


Go Packers!!

they still have a chance

[Jetrock]

I have to admit that the one GATS show I went to in Sacramento wasn't nearly as nice as the train shows (hosted by a local railroad club, I think) in Roseville, in terms of deals. There was a lot of toy-train stuff, and a lot of non-railroad diecast stuff, and assorted things which consistently failed to be trains. I did find some good things, enough that I'm probably going to go to the next GATS in Sacramento, but I'll save up more money for the next Roseville show in February.

[Anonymous]

I went to a GATS in Peoria, Il,2 months ago, and considering the $7 admission fee, I was a bit disappointed. I guess I expected the show to be much bigger than it was. There was one local vendor there that I like to deal with, but other than that, I was disappointed.

[cacole]

Last year's GATS in Tucson, Arizona, was almost nothing but layouts -- very little in the way of dealers attending and offering much in the way of sale items. Many attendees left empty-handed. That was the first GATS I have ever attended, and will probably go again this year (it's held in February) to see if they have anything better than last year. The most impressive layout I saw was in G-scale by a club called the Wood Carvers, who take a G-scale chassis and carve something new and different for the locomotive and rolling stock out of wood. Even all of their scenery was hand-carved out of wood. Other than that, it was rather disappointing. If this year's GATS is no better, I probably won't bother to drive 70 miles to see it anymore. I think the biggest problem facing GATS is Internet sales. Three years ago, there were five hobby shops in Tucson -- today, there's only one, and it is for sale. The other shops have all gone out of business because their customer base has evaporated.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure what you guys want.

Someone complains it's all dealers.
Someone complains it's all layouts.

I was just at the one in Denver, and was very impressed. Lots of display layouts, lots of vendors. Reasonable prices and some deals, too. A wide variety of modelling tools at good prices. Took 3 hours for me to look at everything.

I'm thinking what you might want is a low-to-no-cost-bargain-for-everything-swap-meet.

Sure.

CJCRESCENT is right: these shows depend on local talent. You can't blame GATS if your local modelers are grumpy or not crowd-friendly--that isn't their fault.

If you've "never walked out of a show happy"...hmmm...maybe the fault lies somewhere other than the show's organizers.

[Anonymous]

I indicated I had "mixed feelings" on the show. There will be other shows and possibly special sales held by local hobby shops in my state come next year. If the trend is towards collectible cups, mugs, hats and shirts... that definately would be the end of my going...

The reason I go to these shows is that I seek a small list of out of production, never made again, missed oppertunities and possibly that one special kit to finish a part of a fleet. And maybe a dealer can wheel and deal me to a purchase. I am happy to be able to go. It is not as "First Class" as it used to be.

I do remember that there were children exposed to trains for first time and loved it. That will be the future of our Hobby.

Lee

[AntonioFP45]

I'm looking forward to my "first ever" GATS visit here in Tampa. (I've been to plenty of non-gats shows. Whenever I go to any type of "train affair" prototype or model, I go to see, hear, and enjoy the experience. I understand the point about bargains, but our economy and society have changed so much in just two decades that bargain hunting would be best done at Model Railroad swap meets and flea markets. Don't take my comments negatively, but this hobby is supposed to be enjoyable and I look at a train show as an OPPORTUNITY to relax, enjoy, pick up new ideas, and talk the "lingo" with modelers from other towns or states and see "what's new". That's what I'm happy to pay for! I'd like to temporarily not think about "terrorism, bills to pay, crime, job stress, and liberalism vs. conservatism. I haven't had the experience at a show, but if someone is rude or obnoxious, I will simply smile and tell them "take care, have fun" and move on to another display. Why let some "yahoo" who drank vinegar for breakfast "derail" your fun? I did meet a "gruff" old timer who had a small but well detailed N Scale layout at a train show on the Florida West coast last year. I simply smiled and told him that his functional mainline signals and rural scenery were impressive. He smiled, loosened up quickly and started a conversation with me. I had noticed that many visitors simply glanced at his hard work and didn't say a word. Doesn't always work, but most of the time a smile and a kind word will "mellow" an arrogant attitude. MODELERS: We need to COMPLIMENT AND ENCOURAGE our fellow modelers. If you see some well crafted layout or model, ACKNOWLEDGE THE PERSON! Why is that so hard to do now? I see that a lot with our younger hobbyists. (I'm 40). BTW if you do encounter an arrogant dealer or manufacturer rep, just kindly state that the he/she isn't being professional and many sales are based on "word of mouth" and you'll e-mail that reps company about the poor "sales hurting" attitude. That will get attention. It also stands to reason that some layout displayers may have their guard up due to RIVET COUNTERS. Rivet counters are o.k, as long as criticism is positive/helpful and not demeaning. Happy Railroading!

[bcammack]

I heard that the next Houston GATS will be back at the Pasadena fairgrounds/convention center. I hope that is true because the parking is free and the venue is more "intimate" for the number of vendors. I know that some don't care for the layouts being rather removed from the vendor area in another building, but I attended my first GATS at that location and have been rather disappointed subsequently with ones around the Astrodome.

I've not noticed recently of there being any further scheduled for here, though.

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964

I'm just home from the San Diego, California version of the Great American Train Show, or as it says in the blurb "The GATS". To say I was disappointed is an understatement. Never mind that admission and parking came to $14 or that the affair had a impoverished look and feel about it. What really irked me was the lack of anything interesting to see or spend money on.

I attended the San Diego GATS as well and I felt the same way you described. On the other hand, I'm not sure what would need to happen to make it more ideal. I think a change of venue would be in order. I personally spent $18 just on parking, ticket, and two water bottles for my daughters. I felt like I could have used the $18 on model RR stuff but It was worth it to spend time with my girls.

[Texas Zepher]

They started having two shows a year here and it seems they can't get as many layouts.

One of the first GATS I participated in we actually got into a territory battle with some of the other groups they had us shoulder to shoulder with. This last GATS there were so few layouts we could have doubled the size of ours and still had more than enough room to drive all the way around it. I would prefer it go back to just one show a year.

[Anonymous]

Through my many hobbies I've attended lots of shows. The comments about GATS aren't much different for car parts, firearms, clocks, gardening, antiques or any other hobby out there. I went to my local GATS and though I didn't find what I was looking for I still came home with more loot than I should have. There is one dynamic that will have a future on any hobby show. Available descretionary cash. A recovery economy and retiring baby boomers will play on this and as it does we'll see more folks willing to go on a show circuit which will make the future ones more interesting. One other thing, the price marked is not necessarily what they will accept. Sometimes $30 in hand beats a $35 asking price.

[jabrown1971]

I just went to the St Louis one over Thanksgiving weekend, and wasn't expecting much anyway. I always enjoy the layouts, don't really talk to many folks there, just keep to myself. My complaints are a little different-I think $7 is too much to pay, but then again when it was $5 I thought that was steep. At the St Louis show, the aisles were narrow and crowded with too many dead ends that caught me behind or infront of people blocking my progress or me theirs. Used to be everything was organized in a nice little grid, cruise up on side of the aisle go down the other, loop around and go up the next. There were vendors who were set up with aisles inside aisles and not with a clearly marked entrance or exit. As far a merchandise-maybe a little organization is in order. Maybe folks who are selling die-cast only should be in one area, while folks selling G, O, and S occupy another area. HO scale could be in the middle with N & Z occupying the remaining show floor space. Hats, mugs, stickers, magnets and other do-dads can be interspersed. I never really find what I am looking for, but I quit making lists years ago. If I see something I like I buy it, if I don't then a trip to my train store is in order. A few weeks from now the show will stop in Indy where I live. I will probably go there too, pay the $7 to get in, $2 to park and gawk at the same merchandise, but different layouts and hope that the organization is better than before. But at Indy it is a different set up than Collinsville and it is less crowded.

[greatn]

Last month I took myself and my two sons to the GATs here in Washington. Its had been acouple of years since I had last attended. I recalled lots of vendors, great how-to clinics, and great crowds. This year I had money in my pocket and was looking for a Digitrax Zephyr and a GP7 or RS2. After 2 hours of looking, I finally found a retailer who had pamplets out and had brought one Zephyr with him but it was already sold. There were no vendors there just local hobby stores with tables. I found one package of Intermountain 33" wheels for $9.95, one package of Kadee #5's, and an Intermountain 40' boxcar for $17.00. I traveled 85 miles to be able to attend how-to clinics and there weren't even chairs put out! Will I go again? Would you?

[Pruitt]

For those who live somewhere near Baltimore, maybe the GSMTS would better suit. They have lots of layouts and plenty of space in which to move around. They also have a tinplate show at the same time (pay one fee to get in to both - they're really one show, but scale is on one side of the building, and tinplate on the other for the most part, with most of the layouts in one big area). I like both the scale and tinplate areas.

Anyway, they don't have most of the GATS drawbacks folks are talking about here.

[AntonioFP45]

I attended the GATS at the Tampa fairgrounds last year with a couple of close friends and their wives. We enjoyed it. Atmosphere was friendly and we picked up quite a few bargains.

One thing that seems to work, at least with us, is that if you wait til the last few hours of the show some of the dealers would be willing to bargain. Both my friends picked up brand new locomotives for less than half the price!

After reading the posts, I can understand the situation better today. Years back, big train shows were a major event for modelers in many cities. Today, with so many "smaller" shows that are put on by other groups GATS and GREENBURG have lost some of the big "hoopla" that they had 2 decades back. Adding to that internet dealers are becoming increasingly popular.

[JerryZeman]

I live in the Chicago area, birthplace of GATS, and location of a monthly show out at the Dupage County Failgrounds.

Due to some genetic flaw in my character, I seem to repeat a bad experience on average about once every three to four years. I don't know why I do it, because in my humble opinion, attending a GATS show is a complete and total waste of time. The last two times I went over the last 7 years, I spend zilch, nada, nothing, gornicht, nicht, after investing $14.00 for the wife and I, breakfast for the family (had to entice them to come), and wasted two hours of my life walking past tables on which 60% of the items displayed were of no interest to me (postwar Lionel).

There are far better alternatives to GATS:

1. Local hobby shops that give discounts (typically 20%, less on low margin items).
2. Local hobby shops that do not discount but have a beautifully laid out store, are well stocked, with helpful people. (Right Track Hobbies, Palos Heights, Desplains Hobbies)
3. E-Bay
4. Mail order houses, like Tony's Train Exchange for DCC items

regards,
Jerry Zeman