Continuing the saga...
I went to the library and was disappointed about how little local history was there. Zero maps.
The good news is that I found out some cool things. The PRR station was right across the street from Jimmy Stewart's dad's hardware store. At the end of that block was the engine house. Both were torn down in 1967, but the Hoodlebug made it's last run in 1940, so the station might have been closed long before it was razed. There was a turntable, but it was abandoned in the late 1800's and they put in a wye.
The main commerce of the Indiana Branch of the PRR was coal, but nothing near town. There was a power plant, and I think it might have been the plant now called the Co-gen plant at the IUP university. There was also a glass plant.
Modeling it has an aspect I hadn't thought of.
A modeler can "bend" the track to make it fit. IE, I can bend the wye or leave a leg off and model the interchange with the B&O.
Trouble is everyone around here will wonder why the locations of the buildings aren't where they are supposed to be.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
This might be a little late in the discussion, but check out the shelf papermill in last year's "MRP". It's a 1-foot by 8-foot switching layout with an interchange track. Quite inventive and you could probably scale down a bit by eliminating one spur.
I have a 2'7" foot by 6'11" niche in my den that might very well get this layout put in it. Foam on shelf brackets. Cheap and fast and I can theoretically detail it ad nauseum. Plus a mill would take flats, woodchip hoppers, tanks, boxcars and open hoppers with coal for the powerplant - nice variety with an SW-1500 or maybe a GP38. And if / when I get tired of it, minimal pain if I scrap it.
And I think PA had a large paper industry once, didn't they?
SpaceMouse wrote: I went to the library and was disappointed about how little local history was there. Zero maps.
Try the college library if you can get access!
SpaceMouse wrote:The good news is that I found out some cool things. The PRR station was right across the street from Jimmy Stewart's dad's hardware store. At the end of that block was the engine house. Both were torn down in 1967, but the Hoodlebug made it's last run in 1940, so the station might have been closed long before it was razed. There was a turntable, but it was abandoned in the late 1800's and they put in a wye. The main commerce of the Indiana Branch of the PRR was coal, but nothing near town. There was a power plant, and I think it might have been the plant now called the Co-gen plant at the IUP university. There was also a glass plant.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv1.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv2.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/zts-pdv3.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr-map.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cr/cr-pg13.gif
At least the Indiana branch existed, see next two map links
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Pennsylvania_Railroad_1911.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Pennsylvania_RR_1899.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr.html
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc.html
Engine Operating Manual Including S1
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/manual.html
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRConnections.html
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Centhist/
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/index_byorigin.html
http://members.tripod.com/generaljim1-ivil/theerielackawannalimited/id12.html
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/index.html
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5409_pittsburgh.pdf
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5504_conemaugh.pdf
Above are some map and employee timetable links, unfortunately I didn't see much on Indiana, Pa. Since you know the area better, you might find something
Have fun
I've gone to the library looking for tings, Topographical maps a good resource, they may have old copies.
I found an oddball source for mappage, could be on microfiche, but stuff like municipal mappage for sewer lines often show other details.
nucat78 wrote: This might be a little late in the discussion, but check out the shelf papermill in last year's "MRP". It's a 1-foot by 8-foot switching layout with an interchange track. Quite inventive and you could probably scale down a bit by eliminating one spur.
Linda Sand's Industrial shelf layout - yes, that is a _very_ neat 1x8' shelf layout. She has also gotten several other very neat shelf layouts published, e.g:
Both of the designs above take advantage of having the running track down the _center_ of the shelf instead of along the front of the shelf, with industries branching off both towards the back wall _and_ towards the aisle. Both layouts also make judicious use of nice scenic dividers like highway bridges across the track.
A couple of other very neat shelf layouts I've seen over the last few years:
I also noted a very neat layout around the walls shelf layout with two railroads (CNW and ?) based on the Owatonna depot in Minnesota in an issue of MR not too far back - can't find that magazine right now - I need to organize my collection of magazines a little better :-)
Smile, Stein
NuCat,
Yes they had both lumber and paper. There are smaller lumber mills here both north and south, but nothing right in town. I'm getting the idea that this place was thriving economic center and is now just a depressed shell of it's former glory. Everyone my age that lives here worked in the mines. Now the average income is $18,000.
Dog,
There's some good stuff in there. I actually found lots of info on the PRR in the late 1800's and plenty of mention of the PRR in passing, but in the 5 volume history I looked through, the railroad was incidental and talked only abut when it came to town and little about it's relationship to local industries.
I have a rough idea where the railroad ran, but it's really rough. I have no clue of the sidings. There was also a traction line that ran to neighboring communities. I haven't seen anything on maps about that.
TZ,
I can imagine that the Denver Library has much more info than my library which serves a population of 14,000 give or take. I'm not complaining, really. I am just starting. I just don't expect much from our local free library. They are great for getting books through interlibrary loan. But I looked on the shelf and there were two books on the PRR. Both about the PRR in the 1800s.
Dinwitty,
I'd thought of that. But I'm not at the point of doing it. I've only spent an hour or two on line and 45 minutes at the local library. As Dog pointed out, I have a university library to look into. They have a rich history and most of the local politics involved the University. When class is in session, the university has a higher population than the town. I wouldn't be surprized if the local paper was on microfishe there.
There is also a historical society in town and I know at least one model railroader that donates time there.
Stein,
Thanks for the great info. Unfortunately, my MR collection runs only back to 2005.
As you can probably tell, I'm looking more to develop something prototypical based upon my local area. I have two possible leads, The PRR and B&O interchange that happened in our town and the Cambria and Indiana Railroad that ran 10 miles south of us. That's just if I want to run first generation switchers.
Much easier to do would be to model the current day Buffalo and Pittsburgh that run through the center of town today.
I've had several ideas for freelance, but I'm trying to see if I can get a historical/prototypical layout using techniques like Koester suggests in his Design Blocks book. What I'm finding is that for a beginner book, he's leaving a huge step out. How do you find the LDE's in the first place. He uses a combination of his own research (which he hints at taking weekly road trips with a bunch of guys railfan/railroaders) to various locations for ideas. He also complied many ideas from past Model Railroad Planning issues that he edited.
Luckily, there are those of you out there that have gone through a lot of the process.
I too am curently trying to wrangle my prototype into my space, and trying to make up my mind as to how realistic vs illustrative I want to be with my interpretation of the AC&Y.
See if you can find Sanborn fire insurance maps, They've help me with a wealth of information, track configuration changes over time, industries, sometimes even what each building in a complex was used for... Also check to see what is offered in your state library network. In ohio you can, with your library card access numerous research databases, including the Sanborn maps. Nothing like doing research from your comfy chair.
Hope that helps.
jason
jasoon wrote: I too am curently trying to wrangle my prototype into my space, and trying to make up my mind as to how realistic vs illustrative I want to be with my interpretation of the AC&Y. See if you can find Sanborn fire insurance maps, They've help me with a wealth of information, track configuration changes over time, industries, sometimes even what each building in a complex was used for... Also check to see what is offered in your state library network. In ohio you can, with your library card access numerous research databases, including the Sanborn maps. Nothing like doing research from your comfy chair. Hope that helps.jason
Thanks,
I've seen some good use of the Sanborn maps, but I had completely forgotten about them.
Found something, but it's pretty old or too new
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/indianwe.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/white.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/indianbg.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/blackbor.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/homer.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/1871/blairsvl.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/center.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/indian/usgs/blackbur.jpg
http://www.indianacountyparks.org/parks/countymap.htm
http://www.indianacountyparks.org/photos/maps/hoodlebugmap.pdf
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/library/palib.aspx
PS Try this for rodent hunting;-)
http://www.worldwar1.com/foto/ft062a.jpg
I ran into the same problem. The USGS maps look good, but I need a larger blow-up. I think the PRR was abanndoed by the time the map was made because it doesn't seem to show it.
About the rodent gun.
I've not seen them used around her with mice or rats, but we got several clubs that use them for hunting groundhogs.
SpaceMouse wrote: Dog,I ran into the same problem. The USGS maps look good, but I need a larger blow-up. I think the PRR was abanndoed by the time the map was made because it doesn't seem to show it. About the rodent gun.I've not seen them used around her with mice or rats, but we got several clubs that use them for hunting groundhogs.
Some the USGS maps seem to show an abandoned line going south from Indiana which might at least show where the ROW was which is somewhat useful.
The 1871 maps show the ROW, but as I said are quite old
You might try downloading the USGS maps then enlarging them with MS Paint or Foto enlarging software.
THe college might have hard copies that you could enlarge.
The Hoodelbug trail is the old route of the PRR south as you pointed out. The Ghost Town Trail is the old Cambria and Indiana Railroad.
I found a schematic of the PRR in 1951 that showed two sidings to the east of the main, a wye with an interchange with the B&O and and it looked like either a three-track holding yard or clasification yard. I've seen pictures of the B&O and what passed the station was 3 tracks and there were sidings that went off into town.
Also at the same time was a county-wide traction service.
So far, I've only been able to map out the PRR and B&O mains.
The current Buffalo and Pittsburgh comes from the north on the old B&O line and runs parrallel to the old PRR--sometimes within spitting distance.
Mouse and Dog,
I have been soaking in this http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/index.html and reading the PDF's related to stations, towers and sidings on the PRR.
I am wondering is this material availible for the B&O railroad in a similar form that is easy to understand? I think if I could locate operations papers as used by the B&O similar to what is presented in the PDF's for the PRR the missing peices of the puzzle will fall into place... maybe.
I do have an ulterior motive for posting this here as I am trying to reconcile some of the traffic on my railroad that does fall within the dominant reach of both the B&O and PRR. The engine tonnage ratings and assignments over specific areas certainly raises some new questions.
For example Baltimore area the M1a is rated for about 5000 tons give or take a little bit but you wont see any I-1sa 2-10-0's on the PRR south of Harrisburg however the Western Maryland has some of these brutes in thier Riverside Yard on websites that have photos.
One must not get too deep into the morass of unanswered questions.
I have been quietly following the saga of the Indiana town.. is it possible that this is a small flag stop with hardly no service except a interchange and a depot?
By the way alot of towns are shells of thier former glory. I recall many small towns up in the west or north of the USA that were once very living and thriving towns but now rate hardly a stop light and a few intersections with boarded up stores hinting at commerce long gone.
The Rodnet gun is a interesting tidbit. Imagine the blast zone forward of the muzzle. Flash/burn suits anyone?
Oh, something I forgot to mention.
I did a search on MSN for "Sanborn Insurance Map Pennsylvania". Evertime I hit an interesting site, I got a logon screen for some college. Going though the ISU library may allow you to access on-line Sanborn maps located at other schools. About a year or two ago, I did a search for Sanborn coverage of ESU (Edinboro). I was able to find coverage for 1928, but unable to see the actual maps on line.
Safety Valve wrote: I have been quietly following the saga of the Indiana town.. is it possible that this is a small flag stop with hardly no service except a interchange and a depot?
To quote Bugs Bunny... "Eeeehhhh, could be."
The PRR Indiana Branch was first and foremost a coal service road. There were 9-10 mines that were serviced. In Indiana, and later in Homer City there were coal-fired power plants. Early on at least, Indiana seemed to be a thriving center of commerce. Even today, there are more millionaire's per capita in Indiana than any where else in the state--that with a general population averaging $18K per year.
I don't know, but I feel, it was more than a flag stop. Both the B & O and the PRR had stations--four blocks apart. The B&O station was 85 feet long and shared freight service. The PRR station was 100 ft long. The number of sdings in the area support the feeling that action took place, but don't necessarily confirm it.
Im sorry I mis-used the word flag stop.. I looked up the defination.
I wonder if there is availibility through Inter-library loan for those sanborn maps? I recall trying to find a few occasionally and ran into various log in etc never see the actual maps on-line. It's almost as if these maps are being treated as state secrets.
ohio has a library network "ohio public library information network" www.oplin.org that can be logged into with the numbers from any ohio public library card. Maybe try going through your local library's web site, and see what is available that way. Of course i only have acess to ohio's maps...
jasoon wrote: ohio has a library network "ohio public library information network" www.oplin.org that can be logged into with the numbers from any ohio public library card. Maybe try going through your local library's web site, and see what is available that way. Of course i only have acess to ohio's maps...jason
Thanks Jason,
I've found a site similar for PA, but no luck yet.
I did some hunting into Sanborn maps and found sheet after sheet after sheet...
In the Library of Congress not yet on digital form or online.
16 years ago I was the king of the LOC. I used to get research assignments from my prof as a graduate assistant and I would log onto the web and then to the LOC and have his stuff in minutes. He thought I worked hours to get the info. I'm tryint to remember the name of the browser. It was pre-Netscape.
I'll check it out.
Mosaic (actually there was one I used before that, had to do with the university system)
Anyway, I found a siding and back in the distance I think I saw a coal processing plant. I'm going to try to get in with a mountain bike and a camera. Looked way deserted. This weekend I hope.
Talk about an LDE
This is just south of my town of Indiana, PA taken from an 1938 aerial photo. Lettering is mine but fits what I have found up to this point.
If you are looking for Sanborn Insurance maps then I would suggest that you check out any decent sized college. I know that both UGA and Georgia Tech hold substantial collections. Some of the smaller colleges such as Georgia State also hold some I believe. The only problem that I have found is some colleges have them on black and white microfilm, and color is part of the key.
We are lucky in Georgia in that some of them are available online. I'm actually thinking of doing a small switching layout based on Athens, GA in the early 1900's. At the time the Southern, Seaboard, and Central of Georgia all converged in one point. The Gainesville Midland had trackage rights on the Seaboard, and the Georgia Merged into the Central of Georgia just down the tracks. So hopefully I can simulate a bunch of interchange!
You can see on sheets 12 and 17.
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/sanborn/CityCounty/Athens1918/
wow chip , 2 wye's and an interchange between 2 major railroads , all on top of each other . what more could you ask for in a small layout ?
IT looks good, but I don't think I can make it fit in twice the space. I may fddle with it to see what the space requirement will be.
Also, although it really does look cool. I'm not sure of the operational capacity per space ratio. Seems like a lot of turning and little set out.
We'll see. Be great for a larger layout though. I should send it to Koester for his next book.
ereimer wrote: wow chip , 2 wye's and an interchange between 2 major railroads , all on top of each other . what more could you ask for in a small layout ?
The fact that two RR's are in the same town does NOT mean they interchange there.
Note that Indiana, Pa is NOT listed as an interchange point with the B&O in 1844.