Switching layout theory LDE Paydirt p5

[SpaceMouse]

I am in the process of creating a small switching layout myself. I wanted to make it as simple as possible and this is what I came up with.

I must say that the layout has already turned out be more interesting than I expected and I can keep myself amused switching cars for quite a while!

IT certainly is in the direction I'm looking, though I'd like to find a prototype I can work with.

[SpaceMouse]

 SpaceMouse - obviously you _can_ try to base a small shelf layout on a real prototype. In a MR magazine a few years ago (I think) there was e.g a very neat double oval track plan of the C&NW and another railroad based on the prototypes near Owatonna in Minnesota. I forget what it was called.  You could do something like a small cutout from a plan like that.

 What area & prototype were you looking for ?

 Stein

PRR Western PA 1st Gen Diesel.

[SpaceMouse]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.

2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.  

 

[Anonymous]

30 x 6 = 180 Square somethings.....I am assuming inches because feet would almost be an empire!

Yup...something specific.  KISS.  Its a good rule to live by.  Could be something interesting like a grain elevator row or something boring like a stub-ended station with a run around.

Just a few ideas.

David

 

 

I love kiss! You want the best band in the world you got it! KISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fwright]

I personally really like the Mower Lumber Company at http://www.carendt.com/articles/secrets/index.html.  Works very well with cassettes for off layout staging (as do most small shelf layouts).

I will probably use an adaptation of it as a layout addition to my HOn3 version of the Gum Stump and Snowshoe.

my thoughts

Fred W

[exPalaceDog]

That would be 30 by 72 inches. HO Scale. Sorry.

When all else fails, cheat!

Could you maybe rip the shape in half? A 15" by 144" shape would be easier to use.

Could you say 24" by 48" extensions to the front that could be folded down when the layout is not in use?

For that matter, could the space be used to store a set of modulars on end that could be set up before the session and taken down afterwards?

Have fun

Have you considered a traction layout?

I really don't have space for any kind of permanent layout as eventually, the basement empire will take all the space. What I have is a folding table that has water damage so I thought I would use that.

I did think of using a single lead track on each end that extended 2 feet when the layout was in use, like a removable drill tack.

No traction. I want 1st gen switchers. 

How about car float landing for interchange, large freight terminal, and some team tracks? Maybe add a produce market.

Have fun

 

 

[Texas Zepher]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.
2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.

Well we are trying to develop theory here.  It is too easy to delve into specifics.  It seems often to be a human trait to take the example "as the thing" instead of the general idea the example was meant to "demonstrate". 

[SpaceMouse]

So far, I've gotten three types of suggestions.
2) Use a lot of track, have a yard, industry and interchange.

Not a lot of track, something with a lot of traffic on a small amount of track.

I like that better.

Well we are trying to develop theory here.  It is too easy to delve into specifics.  It seems often to be a human trait to take the example "as the thing" instead of the general idea the example was meant to "demonstrate". 

And people want to be helpful. They know a layout design they like, so they make a suggestion.

The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. I imagine that a lot of it happens by accident, someone sees something cool takes some pictures and says, I'm going to model that.  But when Koester says find a prototype LDE that you like, it reminds me of the Steve Martin joke.

You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes.

Yes, You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes.

But you say, Steve, how can this be?

First, get a million dollars.

 

[johncolley]

Spacemouse, just a thought, why not check out freemo.org and look at some of the modules and setup pics, to get some ideas and standards to compare. Also, if you make it 24" wide for single track or 26" for double track, you can take it to Free-mo setups and play nice with others, eh? jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

[SpaceMouse]

Spacemouse, just a thought, why not check out freemo.org and look at some of the modules and setup pics, to get some ideas and standards to compare. Also, if you make it 24" wide for single track or 26" for double track, you can take it to Free-mo setups and play nice with others, eh? jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

Actually, that's kinda what got me thinking. NMRA Div 2 has a modular club and I talked quite a bit with some of the members. But I kinda gave up on that because I'm already operating on two layouts and starting a basement of my own.

Still it's in the back of my mind.

[Texas Zepher]

The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype.

You know, there was a thread about good industries to model last summer some time.  Perhaps we could map that list to real places and check the satelite maps and see what we can find.

I just happened to think of the Great Western sugar plant up in Longmont Colorado.  I don't know how much suffling of cars they did within the plant itself.  It is almost all gone now.  Holley Colorado used to have the Holley Sugar company, but it was long gone by the 1970s.  They had to have some fairly massive rail operations.

[SpaceMouse]

The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype.

You know, there was a thread about good industries to model last summer some time.  Perhaps we could map that list to real places and check the satelite maps and see what we can find.

I just happened to think of the Great Western sugar plant up in Longmont Colorado.  I don't know how much suffling of cars they did within the plant itself.  It is almost all gone now.  Holley Colorado used to have the Holley Sugar company, but it was long gone by the 1970s.  They had to have some fairly massive rail operations.

The Pennsylvania Railroad and Technical Society has a website that I have spent a couple hours at without much luck so far.

In fact they are holding their annual meeting this weekend about 40 miles from me. I had planned to go, but my wife has a speaking engagement on the other side of the state.

Too bad because they had a railfan tour I wanted to take. They were going to take a bus to all the best viewing locations around the state. It has taken me quite some time to find the few that I have found.

In my little town of 16,000, the traffic in the 50's or 60's was split by the B&O and PRR. The B&O right of way is now owned by the Buffalo and Pittsburgh. The PRR route among other things ran the "Hoodlebug" that is now the "Hoodlebug Trail" a bike path. The B&O ran freight of the Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh and the PRR was a few blocks away and ran through the center of town. There does not seem to be anything left of the PRR.

I thought a trip to the local library is in order. We also have a historical society, but I don't know how good it is.    

 

[marknewton]

The part that perplexes me the most is how people find the prototype. I imagine that a lot of it happens by accident, someone sees something cool takes some pictures and says, I'm going to model that.  But when Koester says find a prototype LDE that you like, it reminds me of the Steve Martin joke...

Chip, given your specific area of interest, you can probably find what you want by contacting the PRR Technical & Historical Society.

http://www.prrths.com/

Either the company's own documents, or the ICC valuation maps should contain trackplans from prototype locations that are suitable for you. It's certainly worth a try.

Cheers,

Mark.

[SpaceMouse]

My first--

Jimmy Stewart's Dad's Hardware Store in 1949. Now torn down.

[dti406]

Also, many counties have valuation maps going back many decades, you should be able to find those at the county courthouse, these would show the tracks and the industires/customers served. 

Rick 

 

[Anonymous]

I think that you have the horse at the appropriate end of the cart in this exercise. You have to find the prototype location or locations to incorporate as LDE's into your plan. It is probably going to take some feet on the ground in the small towns along the route locally of both the PRR and B&O now B&P, looking for some industries to model that catch your interest. Some of the inital research can be done online with some of the map programs to locate areas of possible industries for a switchng type layout. You may find several "likely candidates" several miles apart. There is no reason that these LDE's cannot be combined by moving them adjacent to one another in selective "compression" of both the Elements and the distance between them. Sort of thinking "outside the box" in reverse. With today's high gasoline prices going off in search of interesting candidates could be both costly and a waste of time, especially following the demise of the "Rust Belt" and the advent of railroad right of way "biker/hiking paths". However, there are probably remaining artifacts of the industries that supported two railroads at one time.

As a starting place take a look at Oil City. I spent some time there in the late '60s touring the Jones and Laughlin welded specialty tube mill that as I recall received coiled cold rolled steel coils from the Pittsburgh mills by rail and shipped finished tubing by both rail and by truck. The mill may still be there, operating under LTV Steel or one of its sucessors.

Find the LDE that you like, then the track plan can be adapted from there. Good hunting!

Will

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks Rick and Will,

While searching the net for the PRR in my town, I came across a short line called the Cambria and Indiana Railroad. It basically existed from 1904 to 1994 and ran about 10 miles out of town. It ran mostly Mikes and EMD switchers. The original commerce was lumber until coal was discovered. At one point during the '30s and '40s it was known as the "World's Richest Little Railroad." It owned a vast number of hoppers that it leased all over the country. Revenue from leasing the hoppers exceeded the revenue from hauling coal.

Hey, I could model largest part the 30's and 40's operation by building a diorama of the corporate headquarters.

From March '71 Trains:

From Fallen Flags

[fwright]

I've been considering build a 30 x 6 module so that I can run a few locos that are my favorites, but shelf queens.

But to tell the truth, I'm no sure how to go about it. Koester suggests that I could build the layout out of a single Layout Design Element (LDE). I get that, but I'm not sure I know what to look for.

Any layout I do would have to 1) make sense & 2) provide meaningful operations. If I model local area I could satisfy both my engines--a PRR S1 and a Buffalo and Pittsburgh GP-38.

But that is not the issue. What do I look for in a LDE for a small space?

I'm not so sure the LDE approach works all that well for an operations-oriented very small layout.

Could be I believe that way because I grew up as a model railroader, not a prototype modeler.  And if I had to choose today, it would be playing with model trains over prototype modeling.

Given that, IMHO the reason for the failure of the LDE approach in very small spaces is the same reason almost all modules designed to be part of a club-size setup fail as a stand-alone small layout.  It is very difficult to make an operationally interesting LDE stand totally on its own.  The connections to the rest of the world - the raison d'etre of the railroad itself - are needed for the operations to be at all realistic.  And over-compressing the prototype LDE to fit these connections leads directly back to the caricature switching layouts that are ridiculed so often in the forums.

There was an article in a 1972 Model Railroader issue that addressed what it would take to have a realistic coal mine in HO that could justify a railroad connection.  Even using 3 car hopper cuts for the mine tipple and 9 car trains of empties/loads, the mine scene was 2ft x 8ft.  The track arrangement would be simpler if it were doubled in length, but the essentials of car handling for the mine were still the same.

To me, it seems much easier to take a known functional and reasonably interesting switching arrangement - see Carl Arendt's micro-layouts - and grow them into a suitable free-lance LDE.  Yes, the prototype modelers will scoff.  But you are not having to reinvent the wheel with this approach.  The operating potential is a known quantity, and often contains some form of a switching puzzle for additional interest.  The space-saving "tricks" used by model railroaders are already built-in, but can be eliminated if you have the space. 

The real question becomes - do you want what is essentially an animated diorama of a prototype LDE?  Or do you want a not-necessarily-prototypical layout that is fun to operate, and has an element of switching puzzle built in?  Or maybe not spread yourself so thin with the club layouts, your primary layout, and this (sell the display queens)?

Perhaps you need to confess that you are at heart a layout design junkie, and your posts are really part of this sub-hobby.

yours in dangerous thinking

Fred W

[SpaceMouse]

Perhaps you need to confess that you are at heart a layout design junkie, and your posts are really part of this sub-hobby.

yours in dangerous thinking

Fred W

You are right about coal mining operations as they are currently modeled, however, at the same recent prototype modelers meet I've mentioned before, I attended a seminar on coal mining/railroad modeling. Most of the mines shown were either truck dumps or loaded by cats. There were several loaded by conveyor that couldn't be seen from the actual track, and therefore could be modeled by a single siding.

In my head, I've designed a coal layout for a space my size, but decided I wasn't interested as I designed it. I'm going to look further into the C&I because of the small switcher aspect, but I'm more interested in the PRR running through downtown Indiana past Jimmy Stewart's Dad's Hardware store. It's just that so far, I've come up empty.  

[dti406]

Here is another site with great Pennsy Information - Jerry Britains Keystone Crossings:

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/

Rick 

 

 

[exPalaceDog]

This is a personal hang-up, but the Old Dog thinks it is wise to avoid industries that mainly use open top cars like coal mines. Staging the loads back to the mine between sessions is a pain.

The Old Dog would suggest an "S" curve that would divide the layout into two triangles with removable extensions to provide staging that could be removed when not is use.

Then you might consider something like the area just to the North of the old Erie Meadville Yard. In one triangle, put a freight terminal, one story, three or four tracks with maybe six spots on each track. Add a pair of stock resting pens. Add a spur to a bulk oil dealer accress the highway.

Place a two stall diesel house along the main on the other side. Then add the Erie salvage yard and maybe part of the Erie car re-building shop (later periods). If you want something else in the area, you could put the old brake shoe plant from up the creek in the space.

Another possibility would be Saegertown, Pa. Put the UTLX tank car repair plant in one triangle and Wilks lumber yard in the other.

Another site might be the old Keystone Ordnance Works loading area near Geneva from WW II that shipped TNT. Loads of unusual buildings.

Then there is the old condensed milk plant on the PA RR Pittsburgh Buffale line near Centerville Pa. That might be small enough to fit without too much compression.

Have fun

  

 

[SpaceMouse]

Here is another site with great Pennsy Information - Jerry Britains Keystone Crossings:

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/

Rick 

Thanks,

He doesn't list a history of the Indiana Branch, but there is a schematic that shows in 1951 there was what looks like a runaround, 2 sidings, a two track yard and an interchange with the B&O.

Now if I can find a map and some pictures.

This might be doable.

[SBCA]

Chip, I always enjoy your posts and enthusiasm.

What's going on with the basement layout?  Is the basement prepared for it yet?

Do you have any trackplans to post? 

[SpaceMouse]

Chip, I always enjoy your posts and enthusiasm.

What's going on with the basement layout?  Is the basement prepared for it yet?

Have the blue portion of the layout done. Darl at top and ligher at base. Still need to airbrush in the white from the bottom up, then on to painting in the actual backdrop. Hope to get the airbrush portion done this weekend. Yard work keeps foiling me though.

Do you have any trackplans to post?

[BRJN]

SpaceMouse,

You can fit a Timesaver on 6ft x 12".  With your extra 18" depth you could make tracks not parallel to the edges of the table, or lay it out around a curve (is there a geometry major in the house?)  Then, to be prototypical, you just need to find some place where there is a runaround track with a number of spurs off it.

The GP-38 will only be able to move one car at a time through the runaround and onto any drill track-slash-spur.  What industries can you think of that need only 1 or 2 cars at a time?

I have been fiddling with my own Timesaver-based layout this spring and now have spurs that curve out in every direction from the runaround.  The effect, since I have no scenery yet, is an eyeball-bender.  I think it will look better with buildings in place.  It should be able to make self-framing photo scenes.

[SpaceMouse]

SpaceMouse,

You can fit a Timesaver on 6ft x 12".  With your extra 18" depth you could make tracks not parallel to the edges of the table, or lay it out around a curve (is there a geometry major in the house?)  Then, to be prototypical, you just need to find some place where there is a runaround track with a number of spurs off it.

The GP-38 will only be able to move one car at a time through the runaround and onto any drill track-slash-spur.  What industries can you think of that need only 1 or 2 cars at a time?

I have been fiddling with my own Timesaver-based layout this spring and now have spurs that curve out in every direction from the runaround.  The effect, since I have no scenery yet, is an eyeball-bender.  I think it will look better with buildings in place.  It should be able to make self-framing photo scenes.

Thanks,

I like switchining puzzles, just not on my layout. They are fun until you solve them thoroughly then they are just an obstacle.

I prefer my challenges to be more related to car order and efficiency of switching, if that make sense.  

[exPalaceDog]

You might find the following links of interest

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=indn02sw.jpg&state=PA

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=40.625&lon=-79.142928&scale=24000&zoom=50&type=1&height=498&width=498&icon=0&searchscope=dom&CFID=1155414&CFTOKEN=82785359&scriptfile=http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm&bpid=HIS0203033115%2C2%2C1%2C0&latlontype=DMS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PA

http://www.indianacountyparks.org/trails/ht/ht.html

Have fun

 

[SpaceMouse]

You might find the following links of interest

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=indn02sw.jpg&state=PA

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=40.625&lon=-79.142928&scale=24000&zoom=50&type=1&height=498&width=498&icon=0&searchscope=dom&CFID=1155414&CFTOKEN=82785359&scriptfile=http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm&bpid=HIS0203033115%2C2%2C1%2C0&latlontype=DMS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana,_PA

http://www.indianacountyparks.org/trails/ht/ht.html

Have fun

 

Cool Stuff Dog, Thanks.  

 

[dinwitty]

You may never get an exact prototype modeled, but freelance some to keep it interesting.

I have the same delimma for my modulars. An interchange between 2 operating lines will make it interesting. The Timesaver is a John Allen invention  for 2 duplicate timesavers with an interchange between, 2 operators kinda chessgame to see who can finish their switching moves faster. 

If indiana consider the local industries like grains and fresh produce. There could be an LCL dock for one car. 

You can do a lot in 6'x30".

 I found an MR article with some streetcar switching in a town, very small and compact and just a mass of switching interest.

 I almost would wanna build it.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks Dinwitty,

I have a long way to go. I don't know what was going on in town in terms of industry. All I know is B&O ran passnegers north and the PRR ran passengers south with the hoodlebug. There are sidings and it seems like an interchange. But I don't know what they were for.

The sideings were all torn out and the buildings are gone. There was a junk yard when I moved here, and a siding for that, but I never saw it used. There is a major coal-fired power plant to the south, but I don't know when that was built. The B&P services it now.

I have some digging to do.