I'm very disapointed with my C&O observation car from Walthers
at $44.95 it should negotiate the curves and turnouts better than it does
It's not a Wheel gauge problem it's the framework that only allows a minimal
movement of the Trucks
I suppose i could do some surgery but at $44.95 why should i have to ?
All my Rivarossi cars run much better than this one does
Ok enough Ranting ! Does anyone else have these problems ?
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
davidmbedard wrote: IIRC the package says something to the affect that 24" radaii is a bare minimum. Which meant it probably will squeel around these curves. Rivarossi cars are designed for 18" Radaii and are a completely different animal. I have both cars, but I run 28" as my minimun radius.David
IIRC the package says something to the affect that 24" radaii is a bare minimum. Which meant it probably will squeel around these curves.
Rivarossi cars are designed for 18" Radaii and are a completely different animal. I have both cars, but I run 28" as my minimun radius.
David
Yes David you're correct but my min radius is 26 yet it still binds up in the middle
All of my turnouts are Peco mediums yet it still has problems with those also.
I guess my point is for that price it should do 18" radius.
The old Rivarossi cars have truck-mounted "talgo" couplers and even the 80' cars can take a very sharp curve. The Walthers cars (and the Walthers/Rivarossi 60' passenger cars) have body mounted couplers. My last layout used a mainline 28" min radius and could run Walthers cars with no problem.
When using full-length passenger cars with body-mounted couplers and working diaphragms, 30" or larger min radius usually recommended.
The walthers cars are built for more prototypical turns, they were not designed from the begining for anything less than 24" radius. Walthers does make shorty heavyweights in their Trainline series for smaller layouts of 18" radius.
Cost largely has nothing to do with minimum radius, but instead it's based on car length and how prototypical the company wishes to be. My Athearn SD60 was realatively inexpensive but cannot negotiate a 18" radius curve with any freight behind it. Conversely, my most expensive engine, a Marklin Trix 2-8-2 USRA Light Mikado (yes I know it's not that prototypical but it's really pretty and everyone needs some steam) can do a 18" radius curve.
Basically, here's the deal: A GE 44 Tonner will always be able to do tighter curves than an SD70. A 40' boxcar can do a lot less radius than an 80' passenger car.
If you want do to tighter curves, get shorter rolling stock.
Cheers!
~METRO
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Quote-I have some Walthers passenger cars that derail on 50 inch radius curves at our club
Gee? Maybe they need a 60" minimum to work properly?
I think it's funny how people defend these $45 cars when there's so many negative posts about them. I've owned about 6 Walthers cars (no passenger) and thought they all ran like garbage. I got rid of them and won't buy anymore.
I have three NYC heavyweights that run very well. I only subject them to curvatures of 28" radii and up, but I have successfully run them forwards and backwards through my reversing loop, part of which is in the 24" range.
It might be worth removing the trucks and looking for any flashing or material that might be impeding the lateral pivoting motions of the trucks. I realize that the cost of these cars would suggest that they should get to the customer in near-perfect order. Fact is, they don't, and their cures should be only a matter of close inspection and rectification, either in the cars' running gear or the surfaces on which we place them. There-in lie the derailments.
I quite like the cars I have, so I don't know where the negative posts are. Now, I haven't messed with the .0135" wire grabs and things yet, and I have seen some posts as to "what were they thinking!?" for those...
Walthers, right out of the box, first or second line says to take the trucks apart and lube them and the axle points. I think the line is even bolded... Maybe that was a problem for you loathar? Now, my cars are awaiting the completion of the club layout (I only have 22" curves, but I couldn't pass up the sale on the cars ), so they have not been lubed or anything - but they still rolled rather smoothly along the 12-15' of straight track that I have. I just gave them a push and let them roll freely, so it might not have been the most scientific of tests, but they still worked out pretty well...
If you want to run toy 18" curves and #4 switches you need to buy toy cars like Athearn shorties.
If you're derailing on 50" curves(amazingly large for a home layout) you obviously have a problem. Either the track is bad or you have one of the cars with a twisted truck. That is caused by one of the holes not tapped perpendicular. If you loosen all four screws and set the truck on a piece of track you can push it square. Then tighten the screws one at a time and you will find the bad one. Either get a replacement or leave that one crew a tad loose.
On some cars the metal wipers get bent and cause [problems. If you are not lighting, take off the metal strips.
Safety Valve wrote:I think the hobby is infected with too much sectional track in the 18" and 22". I say if you want to run big stuff, get big curves to go with it or go home.
I agree... however living in a dorm room has it's disadvantages... and the 22" is a pretty good step up from the 15" trainset stuff I previously had. Now, I realize I'm still limiting myself BUT seeing trains run around a 4x8 oval (when my roommate is gone... another problem with dorm rooms) is much more amusing to me than having them sit on the shelf all the time... And 22" runs all of my equipment (save for the newly acquired cars) flawlessly.
I may not be able to run the passenger cars at all, and a few of my locos look a tad off when going around the curves, but I knew these "problems" and I bought the things anyway. They might be shelf queens for the next few years, but as soon as college is finished, and I get on my feet (so to speak) I already have a direction and a few "pointers" as to what I can and cannot do - as opposed to building a layout that limits me (in the sense of "well, I've already built the thing and I can't expand the curves to run this...")
BTW about those Walthers 60' cars - don't depend that they'll go down to 18" R curves, they have body mounted couplers too. I tried running a 60' RPO on a train with 80' Rivarossi cars (with talgo truck/couplers) on a branchline with 22"R and the Walthers RPO wouldn't do it. Shortness doesn't always equate with being able to take sharp curves.
I have had great expreriences with both the Walther's lightweight and heavyweight offerings. They do seem light to me, so I added weight which really enhanced their rolling qualities. Some of them, as stated above, do require a little tuning, such as making sure the trucks are true and lubed.
Even some brass passenger cars I have required a little "tuning" to get to roll right. I am not talking about the cheaper Soho or Lambert cars, but Samhongsa builds from The Coach Yard.
With a little work and patience, they are very nice cars in my opinion. I just wish they would do some more of the Santa Fe heavyweight prototypes, such as the chair car. I was hoping they were going to release a whole series of Santa Fe cars like they did with the wood and metal kits. That channel sill is very distinct.
NeO6874 wrote: Safety Valve wrote:I think the hobby is infected with too much sectional track in the 18" and 22". I say if you want to run big stuff, get big curves to go with it or go home. I agree... however living in a dorm room has it's disadvantages... and the 22" is a pretty good step up from the 15" trainset stuff I previously had. Now, I realize I'm still limiting myself BUT seeing trains run around a 4x8 oval (when my roommate is gone... another problem with dorm rooms) is much more amusing to me than having them sit on the shelf all the time... And 22" runs all of my equipment (save for the newly acquired cars) flawlessly. I may not be able to run the passenger cars at all, and a few of my locos look a tad off when going around the curves, but I knew these "problems" and I bought the things anyway. They might be shelf queens for the next few years, but as soon as college is finished, and I get on my feet (so to speak) I already have a direction and a few "pointers" as to what I can and cannot do - as opposed to building a layout that limits me (in the sense of "well, I've already built the thing and I can't expand the curves to run this...")
I tell you a small secret. **Flips pages of the hobby budget... aha... Bachmann Track 35" radius. A loop of the stuff and some straight track goes onto a set of small modular type table or floor in the room. That way the stuff can get some running time. Oval or figure 8 dont know yet.
I may have to do it outside because of my two cats. They are quite the customs inspectors when new stuff show up in thier primary living area.
College was hard on everything when I went. I used the Train Simulator on the computer quite a bit for a mainline run from time to time. I remember a steam scenario from the Trains 2004 with the small yard and the lumber yard etc was really good.
The metal strips were removed from my cars which helped the trucks alot on rough track. I dont plan on wrecking the cars for lighting. I save that fun for the Rapidos (Sorry Walthers) which is really easy-peasy as they say. Im hunting for a equilviant source for the hearing aid batteries style batteries for those cars.
The trucks will get a little twisted I think in some of the heavyweights I will deal with them by removing them from the cars and testing them on a absolutely flat and flawless surface. I dont know which way Im going to go about fixing them yet. The passenger cars currently sit in a taped box in the corner waiting for the day to run.
How then am I to run pax trains? I have a small Roundhouse 4-4-0 with several overlands that does the job well on the smaller radius.
NeO6874 wrote:Walthers says that their cars can just get by on 24" curves, and they then reccommend that you remove some of the underframe to improve 24" radius performance. I bet these have a realistic (ie, no modification needed) minimum radius of 28 or 30"
I didn't see anything about frame modification in the catalogue Or on the side of the box
when I bought it.
But since my Min radius is 26 I thought it would be no problem I was surprised, shocked would be a better word when it had problems.
Since I didn't have the heart to cut on such a beautiful car I gave it to my friend
who has much larger curves on his layout. But even there on his tightest curve 27"
if you place your hand on top of the car you can feel it binding
davidmbedard wrote: You have a flaw in your thinking. Should a Brass 2-10-4 texas type be able to negotiate 18" radius curves? For the 1800 price tag (by your thinking) it should go around 15" radius curves.If Expecting better Performance for More money is flawed thinkingyour right The Walthers cars have underbody details, working diaphrams, close coupling and non-talgo trucks.....the Rivarossi does not have underbody detail, does not have a working diaphram (actually most have NO diaphram) and have talgo trucks with truck mounted couplers. Apples....Oranges.....All my Rivarossi cars have body mounted couplers and working diaphrams {applied by me}I also changed the wheel sets The under body detail IS much less on the Rivarossi but the frame is a better designbecause it allows more truch movement My point is this....you cant complain about something that works as it is designed. They say 24" is BARE minimum.....it does not say that it will run well around thoes curves.....or with other equipment. Thats just it it won't do as advertisedWith out modifacation Walthers cars are worth every penny. They are well-detailed, well build cars with lots of extras....I have always been impressed by the fact that they could produce brass quality pieces for such little money. They even have interior lighting!You get what you pay for.... DO YOU ?David
You have a flaw in your thinking. Should a Brass 2-10-4 texas type be able to negotiate 18" radius curves? For the 1800 price tag (by your thinking) it should go around 15" radius curves.
If Expecting better Performance for More money is flawed thinking
your right
The Walthers cars have underbody details, working diaphrams, close coupling and non-talgo trucks.....the Rivarossi does not have underbody detail, does not have a working diaphram (actually most have NO diaphram) and have talgo trucks with truck mounted couplers. Apples....Oranges.....
All my Rivarossi cars have body mounted couplers and working diaphrams {applied by me}
I also changed the wheel sets
The under body detail IS much less on the Rivarossi but the frame is a better design
because it allows more truch movement
My point is this....you cant complain about something that works as it is designed. They say 24" is BARE minimum.....it does not say that it will run well around thoes curves.....or with other equipment.
Thats just it it won't do as advertised
With out modifacation
Walthers cars are worth every penny. They are well-detailed, well build cars with lots of extras....I have always been impressed by the fact that they could produce brass quality pieces for such little money. They even have interior lighting!
You get what you pay for.... DO YOU ?
They are beautiful cars with great detail and i envey all those fokes with broad radius curves that can run them
The line about the modifications is one of the first lines after "these cars need lubrication put in the journals" in the parts diagram/instruction booklet.
selector wrote: Snip It might be worth removing the trucks and looking for any flashing or material that might be impeding the lateral pivoting motions of the trucks. I realize that the cost of these cars would suggest that they should get to the customer in near-perfect order. Fact is, they don't, and their cures should be only a matter of close inspection and rectification, either in the cars' running gear or the surfaces on which we place them. There-in lie the derailments.
Snip
Yep i guess i expect too much
davidmbedard wrote: loathar wrote: Quote-I have some Walthers passenger cars that derail on 50 inch radius curves at our club Gee? Maybe they need a 60" minimum to work properly?I think it's funny how people defend these $45 cars when there's so many negative posts about them. I've owned about 6 Walthers cars (no passenger) and thought they all ran like garbage. I got rid of them and won't buy anymore. "About 6 Walthers cars"........not even passenger ones.I think it is funny how people like to exagerate to get their point across. Where are these negitive posts? Mostly these posts are people who want to run them on 18".....or posts by shakeandbakers who want everything to work perfectly out of the box.You on the other hand are giving us hear-say and you admit that you have NO personal experience with these cars. And you compare these passenger units to 'other' rolling stock you own by Walthers. It would be like comparing an 80's Life Like toy-locomotive with a modern Proto 2000 offering. I think THAT is funny.....how you can compare apples to oranges.I would be interested in finding out exactly what you own. If you own any modern LL units, then I call you out on this. But to pass judgement on a product because you owned something completely unrelated by the same company is completely bogus.David
loathar wrote: Quote-I have some Walthers passenger cars that derail on 50 inch radius curves at our club Gee? Maybe they need a 60" minimum to work properly?I think it's funny how people defend these $45 cars when there's so many negative posts about them. I've owned about 6 Walthers cars (no passenger) and thought they all ran like garbage. I got rid of them and won't buy anymore.
"About 6 Walthers cars"........not even passenger ones.
I think it is funny how people like to exagerate to get their point across. Where are these negitive posts? Mostly these posts are people who want to run them on 18".....or posts by shakeandbakers who want everything to work perfectly out of the box.
You on the other hand are giving us hear-say and you admit that you have NO personal experience with these cars. And you compare these passenger units to 'other' rolling stock you own by Walthers. It would be like comparing an 80's Life Like toy-locomotive with a modern Proto 2000 offering. I think THAT is funny.....how you can compare apples to oranges.
I would be interested in finding out exactly what you own. If you own any modern LL units, then I call you out on this. But to pass judgement on a product because you owned something completely unrelated by the same company is completely bogus.
What hear say are you talking about? There's a post every week or two about people having problems with these things. If I buy 6 Ford products and have problems with ALL of them, and then go on a forum and see other folks are having problems with their Fords. Guess what? I ain't buyin Fords no more! No Ford apples, No Ford oranges, No Ford lemons!
We just had a (4 page?) post about how crappy their grab irons are. Somebodies always posting about them not tracking right, or the tabs breaking when they open them, or coupler problems, or the lighting kits don't fit right. Every time someone posts a problem, 10 people jump in and say "Yep! Mine did that too! This is how I fixed it" But people still say they are a great product.(@$45/each)
I'll pass! I've waisted enough money on their cars to know better.
NeO6874 wrote: The line about the modifications is one of the first lines after "these cars need lubrication put in the journals" in the parts diagram/instruction booklet.
Thank"s Dan
Wish they would have put that on the outside of the box
Good News is i get visitation rights to my car on a monthly basis
C&O Fan -
Yeah, that would be beneficial; although I wonder if the problem you are/were having was caused by bad trucks or a little flash in the journals/on the axle points. The cars I have will get about 1/3 of the way around a 22" 90º curve (4 sections of track). They don't bind up until the rear truck (relative to the car's forward motion) enters the curve. And then the binding is between the inner two wheelsets and the underbody detail...
If I'm reading the diagram,parts list, and other things correctly, the sideframes of the trucks are metal (screwed to the a plastic center section). If this is the case, then flash in the journal would pose a real problem, as when the truck swivels the axle point(s) may rub/bind on the flash...
Could be Dan
I gotta admit i never looked at the Instructions< Don't tell anybody
I just took it out of the box and ran it
When i designed my layout i made sure the minimum radius was 26"
to avoid this problem
I gotta admit it looks much better running on my friends layout !
jsoderq wrote: If you want to run toy 18" curves and #4 switches you need to buy toy cars like Athearn shorties.If you're derailing on 50" curves(amazingly large for a home layout) you obviously have a problem. Either the track is bad or you have one of the cars with a twisted truck. That is caused by one of the holes not tapped perpendicular. If you loosen all four screws and set the truck on a piece of track you can push it square. Then tighten the screws one at a time and you will find the bad one. Either get a replacement or leave that one crew a tad loose.On some cars the metal wipers get bent and cause [problems. If you are not lighting, take off the metal strips.
The 4 screws creating a cocked/ twisted truck have been my only complaint w/ the Walther's cars. An indication of this problem will show by inverting the car and sight the axle plane. All axles should be inline. The remedy is mentioned in the above post by jsoderq. Also, make sure that the bolster screw is loose enough to allow proper fore/ aft movement. If too tight the inboard wheels of the truck can't follow track irregularities.
Every Walther's car goes straight to the workbench to have the crap couplers replaced w/ #5s, check the trucks, weather/ paint wheelsets (roof or rail brown or combination of weathered black), oil the axles and then put it into service. I have found 2-3 bad/ twisted trucks out of 10 cars. The bad trucks were causing random derailments until the proplem was found.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Terry--
Save those Walthers for when you get out of the dorm room (hey, been there, done that!). The minimum recommended radius for them is 24", but don't you believe it, my friend. I've got a 34" minimum radius on my garage layout, and I STILL had Walthers' cars that just kind of grinned at me as they derailed on a curve.
I checked and found out one thing--the screw-heads on the trucks that connect with the 'lighting' units on the outside bottom of the car can catch unless you swipe them slightly with a file. Some of my truck screw-heads had burrs on them that caught on the metal strips and hung the trucks up. A couple of small swipes with a file took the burrs off, while still offering good connection (in case you decide to install the Walthers lighting kits), and the cars have given me very little, if any trouble since. Also, those trucks are fairly tightly attached at the factory. Back off the mounting screw about 1/4 of a turn. Should give the truck a lot more 'give.'
Also, check your coupler swing. The Walthers are not 'Talgo', of course, but quite possibly you might have a little burr on the pocket that prevents your coupler from swinging back and forth as it's supposed to. And do yourself a favor--get RID of the Walther's couplers and substitute Kadee #5's. They pop right in the pocket and are FAR more reilable than those Walther's things.
Yah, I know, and I sympathize with you. For the price, they should work better. But they're sort of like brass locos--a little 'tweaking' and they'll run very nicely. But you need to do a little 'tweaking.'
Best of luck
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Thanks Tom and Bob for the tune up tips I've printed them out and will use them along with some others to help the car run better.
I couldn't agree more. We get top drawer appearance but not top drawer performance from these cars and for the price, we have every right to expect both. I own 8 Walthers passenger cars, and 2 constantly derail. 25% failure rate is pretty poor at that price.
Tom - I'm the one who made reference to the dorm room...
I have a club layout that will have 40"+ curves on it, so as long as I take it slow over teh crossovers and turnouts in the staging yard (they're all #6... probably a little tight), I shouldn't have any trouble, well after they get the quick tuneup that is,