Railphotog wrote: My question is what is "Abhoriouis "? Never heard that word!
My question is what is "Abhoriouis "? Never heard that word!
Typing quickly always gets the best of me.
The word I was after was the adverb form of "abhorrence," which means "something or someone extremely repugnant or loathsome."
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I applaud the people who sit on OOP stuff for a few years. Alot of stuff was released when I was not active in the hobby. If every kit released was purchased by a modeler and put together 10 years ago, I would have no chance of getting one today.
As far as the price gouging, this is a non-issue with ebay. It doesn't matter if the starting price is $1 or $1000, the kit will sell for whatever amount the highest bidder will pay for it, or it won't sell at all. Remember, these are model trains not food or gasoline. My wife would argue that even the MSRP is too expensive considering it is just a hobby.
I have no problem paying a premium for a kit that I would not otherwise have been able to get if the ebayer didn't "sit" on it. I have paid over $100 for O scale ATSF walthers passenger cars that originally sold for less than $20 in the 70's. It was a choice that I made based on my options. Which were 1. scratch build (not enough time) 2. Brass (over $300) 3. No passenger car.
I feel as though it was an opportunity, not price gouging.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
el-capitan wrote: I applaud the people who sit on OOP stuff for a few years. Alot of stuff was released when I was not active in the hobby. If every kit released was purchased by a modeler and put together 10 years ago, I would have no chance of getting one today. As far as the price gouging, this is a non-issue with ebay. It doesn't matter if the starting price is $1 or $1000, the kit will sell for whatever amount the highest bidder will pay for it, or it won't sell at all. Remember, these are model trains not food or gasoline. My wife would argue that even the MSRP is too expensive considering it is just a hobby.I have no problem paying a premium for a kit that I would not otherwise have been able to get if the ebayer didn't "sit" on it. I have paid over $100 for O scale ATSF walthers passenger cars that originally sold for less than $20 in the 70's. It was a choice that I made based on my options. Which were 1. scratch build (not enough time) 2. Brass (over $300) 3. No passenger car.I feel as though it was an opportunity, not price gouging.
Out of curiosity did you think of checking the use market? After all our hobby is a ever changing one with modelers changing scales,eras etc on a weekly bases.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: Out of curiosity did you think of checking the use market? After all our hobby is a ever changing one with modelers changing scales,eras etc on a weekly bases.
I have bought a few used things off ebay with good results. Alot of the used stuff I see is not up to "my standards" and would take more time to rework than building a new kit, so I don't bother. As far as used stuff from shows.... there are very few shows for Oscale 2 rail each year and none in my state (MI). Chicago has an annual show as does Cincinnati. I have not been to one in years. The prices are usually higher at the shows than on ebay, and when you factor in time and travel expenses, it just isn't worth it to me. Once in a while I can find some O scale stuff at local shows but these are mostly HO and Lionel.
ericboone wrote: MAbruce wrote:Also, it's not like they are being unethical by doing this with essential commodities during a dire shortage such as gasoline, medical supplies, or food. What is so unethical about that? What if gas is in short supply and the gas station doesn't raise the price? You'll go there and fill your tank full. Maybe you'll even bring your wife's car and fill that up to just in case. Now the next 50 people do that and the gas is gone. Now the following 50 people have no gas at all.If the price was higher, maybe you would have only half filled your tank and not filled your wife's car. That would have gotten you by and the next 50 and the following 50 people could have gotten gas too. A high price also gives business the incentive to bear the extra cost to get more gas there faster and the gas shortage is over quicker and all people have more gas sooner. Food is another excellent example. I work for a company that is based in Raleigh, North Carolina. If they even have a threat of snow, you better run to the store and get bread and milk if you want any at all. It's a bit of a joke that happens to be true. People get all nervous and empty the store shelves, hoarding milk and bread and some get none at all. If the stores raised their prices with the oncoming threat of snow, then people would only buy what they really need and there would be enough bread and milk for everyone.This applies to model railroad kits as well. Don't you think that Walther's and other manufacturers see these high prices? Well, if they last, Walther's is certainly smart enough to see there is a demand and re-introduce the kit. If they don't someone else will make a similar one.
MAbruce wrote:Also, it's not like they are being unethical by doing this with essential commodities during a dire shortage such as gasoline, medical supplies, or food.
What is so unethical about that? What if gas is in short supply and the gas station doesn't raise the price? You'll go there and fill your tank full. Maybe you'll even bring your wife's car and fill that up to just in case. Now the next 50 people do that and the gas is gone. Now the following 50 people have no gas at all.
If the price was higher, maybe you would have only half filled your tank and not filled your wife's car. That would have gotten you by and the next 50 and the following 50 people could have gotten gas too. A high price also gives business the incentive to bear the extra cost to get more gas there faster and the gas shortage is over quicker and all people have more gas sooner.
Food is another excellent example. I work for a company that is based in Raleigh, North Carolina. If they even have a threat of snow, you better run to the store and get bread and milk if you want any at all. It's a bit of a joke that happens to be true. People get all nervous and empty the store shelves, hoarding milk and bread and some get none at all. If the stores raised their prices with the oncoming threat of snow, then people would only buy what they really need and there would be enough bread and milk for everyone.
This applies to model railroad kits as well. Don't you think that Walther's and other manufacturers see these high prices? Well, if they last, Walther's is certainly smart enough to see there is a demand and re-introduce the kit. If they don't someone else will make a similar one.
I think you failed to understand my meaning of ‘Dire Situation". I agree that the market (supply and demand) will set the price on things during the normal course of commerce, but there are emergency situations were demanding unreasonably high prices for critical services or goods is dishonest. It's not only dishonest; in most cases (at least in this country) it's unlawful.
Then again, if you want to put your economic philosophies to the test during such a dire instance, good luck! Because if the law isn't around to keep you in line, an angry mob will likely take care of if for you.
Ebay often determines what the market value of an item is, not what you think (or hope) it is. I recently sold some old Model RR magazines. The years were in the 1940's. I started the bidding at $6/year. Much to my surprise, 2 of the years went for about $60/year. I don't believe I was gouging anyone. If you feel morally or ethically obligated not to gouge, put a "Buy It Now" on the auction. If you put a fsm kit on Ebay with a starting price of $1 by the end of the auction the final bid will be the market value of the kit. If a item's starting bid is higher than the market value of the item, more times than not, the item will not sell. As for buying on Ebay, I place a bid at what I will pay for an item. If I win, great. If I lose, that's ok also since I will not pay more for the item than I wanted to. There are some who get into a competition over an item and it becomes a matter of pride not to lose the auction. Great for the seller, bad for the buyers. If one wants to find out the market value or fair price for an item, look under completed auctions. You will find a narrow range of prices for a particular item showing that the free market really works.
As with all my responses, this is just my opinion.
Steve B.
DigitalGriffin wrote: If I decide to sell my kit(s), I'll probably sell it for a lil bit more than I paid for it.
You buy a boxcar for $20 in 1997. You put it on ebay in 2007 for $22 starting bid. Final bid is $50. Do you refund some portion of the money?
steveb wrote: I started the bidding at $6/year. Much to my surprise, 2 of the years went for about $60/year. I don't believe I was gouging anyone.
All auctions are subject to this sort of thing, not just eBay, and the people who are unhappy with the final sale price are invariably those who were outbid.
There are those who haven't the faintest idea what something is worth. These people are wide open to being "taken" for a ride.
Then, there are those who are so competitive at EVERYTHING in life, they MUST win, so they outbid everyone on EBAY for a 1972 roll of blue colored toilet paper, $550 dollars!!!!! But they WON !!! Yeaaaaaaa !!! A fool and his/her money are soon parted.
el-capitan wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Out of curiosity did you think of checking the use market? After all our hobby is a ever changing one with modelers changing scales,eras etc on a weekly bases. I have bought a few used things off ebay with good results. Alot of the used stuff I see is not up to "my standards" and would take more time to rework than building a new kit, so I don't bother. As far as used stuff from shows.... there are very few shows for Oscale 2 rail each year and none in my state (MI). Chicago has an annual show as does Cincinnati. I have not been to one in years. The prices are usually higher at the shows than on ebay, and when you factor in time and travel expenses, it just isn't worth it to me. Once in a while I can find some O scale stuff at local shows but these are mostly HO and Lionel.
Ok..I can understand that..O Scale 2 rail is hard to find new or use in this area(North Central part of Ohio)..
As for me I usually perfer to see the use equipment before I buy it..However,I have made some exceptions with on line forum dealing and some e bay deals from Dan's Depot.
Thanks!
BRAKIE wrote: As for me I usually perfer to see the use equipment before I buy it..
Agreed, but there have been some ebay deals that I just couldn't pass up. I go into all used ebay bids with the mindset that I will need to do some general maintenance on the item when I receive it. I factor this into my max bid. Having this mentality I have yet to be let down on a used item. Not so with a few "new" items.
Midnight Railroader wrote: steveb wrote: I started the bidding at $6/year. Much to my surprise, 2 of the years went for about $60/year. I don't believe I was gouging anyone. Right, because "gouging" requires YOU to tell the buyer that he must pay an inflated price. Your price was more than reasonable. All auctions are subject to this sort of thing, not just eBay, and the people who are unhappy with the final sale price are invariably those who were outbid.
Midnight Railroader, there is no, "must pay," when we're talking about e-bay; there is only, "I want." The buyer says, "I want to pay this much;" the seller says, "I want to sell it for this much." It is my understanding that once the seller places the item up for bids, he is obligated by the rules of e-bay to sell it for the highest bid when the time is up. If the seller starts the bidding at what some might consider an, "inflated price," he's not demanding that anyone pay that price he is merely saying, "I want this much." Then he waits for a seller to say, "I want, or am willing to pay this much or even more." If you as a buyer don't want to pay what the seller is asking, then don't bid. As for, "gouging," there is no crisis, no moral imperative, therefore, no gouging, only. "I want."
This whole discussion takes place two or so times a week, or so it seems. We could easily take a thread on the same subject from two or three months ago, put it in place of this one and I don't think anyone would really recognize the difference. What is weird is that many, if not most of the people who start these threads, are not new to this forum; they know about the other threads. So WHY? Wait a minute, that's a dumb question coming from me since this is the third response I have made; D'oh.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
Let us blend two recent threads: LHS vs. internet retailers, and this one...because of this latest subject of shipping costs. It's like purchasing a new bed, a king-size this time. Hmm, none of my bedding fits, so I guess I'll have to.... KACHIIINGG!!!
Anyway, I surfed last night for a Walther's PRR Caboose. I did this through a well-known etailer from whom I have made several purchases. After shipping, and before I had to pay duty (due upon arrival to my post office), my cost would have been, in USD, $47. I emailed Ken at Leisure Time in Nanaimo, and got a response back within 90 minutes. CDN$41.50. No duty.
Wait! Don't tell me....I'm thinkin'....uhhh.....that would be about CDN$13 in savings.....
selector wrote: Anyway, I surfed last night for a Walther's PRR Caboose. I did this through a well-known etailer from whom I have made several purchases. After shipping, and before I had to pay duty (due upon arrival to my post office), my cost would have been, in USD, $47.
Anyway, I surfed last night for a Walther's PRR Caboose. I did this through a well-known etailer from whom I have made several purchases. After shipping, and before I had to pay duty (due upon arrival to my post office), my cost would have been, in USD, $47.
FWIW we don't pay customs duties on model railroad items in Canada. We pay the 14%GST/HST tax, plus the $5.00 collection fee to the Post Office. The tax is the same (for most of us) that we pay on locally purchased items.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
You cannot filter out Tyco, because then you filter out all the good stuff that says "not Tyco" in their description.
If something is worth $50 to me, and the seller charges $25 shipping, I do not care. I just don't bid over $25. Why do people get upset that they have to read and pay attention to not get screwed? I thought that was normal life. If eBay doesn't like it, then they have a problem, not me, and they can deal with it, not me. Maybe if they didn't keep jacking their rates trying to squeeze another nickel people wouldn't be playing games the other way.
The only reason governments have laws against scalping is they can't collect taxes on it. They don't give a hoot in he** about you and me. If you look what they charge for parking whenever they use a "government owned" facility (that we already paid for) for an event, now that's gouging.
Bob, I paid duty on two locomotives I purchased from Outlet Direct last year. Either that, or it is not consistently applied by the agency between raters who assess the packages' values.
Come to think of it, I have paid no duty on other types of MRR purchases, such as a Code 100 #6 double-slip from Walthers/Shinohara, but I did on the two locomotives. I did have to pay on the three heavyweights I purchased last year. So, it is hit and miss.
I should inquire.
Thanks, Bob.
-Crandell
When I buy stuff from the U.S and get it to Sweden I can sometimes get away with not paying taxes. But as I have understood it if the value is low, say no more then 50$ they do not think it's worth it and let it slip through without duty or VAT. Maybe it's the same thing with Canada?
Magnus
The only opinions that count on an auction are those of the seller and the active bidders...
To me, a $1400 bid on a cardboard box for a 1937 Hudson is not something I would do.. Somebody wanted that box and paid $1400. That deal worked for the buyer and the seller.. My opinion on the value does not matter...But that auction made my day, I am glad the seller got that price....The buyer got his box that he wanted....I see nothing wrong...
So, what If I wake up tomorrow morinng and decide I want a cardboard box for a 1937 Hudson...OK , I will put an add in the local newspaper that states: Wanted, cardboard box for 1937 Hudson, good condition only, willing to pay $7.00...
OK,, where in the world is my cardboard box???? I know, those crooks on eBay, that guy cheated me out of it when he paid $1400...
Like I say, my opinion don't mean much unless I am a bidder...at least for that auction...Some of the stuff on ebay is nothing but a pile of crap in the eye's of many, it only takes one bidder to think otherwise..granted, he might not be the brightest bulb on the tree,,but he can still bid as he pleases...
How about the seller setting a high starting bid or reserve bid??? That price is his opinion, reguardless of how he arrived at it.....If nobody is willing to bid his price, it simply won't sell...
If an item is not misrepresented, and has photos of any flaws, and notes any missing parts or known problems, That is fair by me....I have bought misrepresented items before, and e-mailed the seller of the problem...I got a partial refund on two occasions.... One was a sealed, new in the box steamer that, when opened, I seen the paint was comming off the steamchest....The seller was not a crook, and I did leave his the good feedback that he deserved....If an item, In my opinion, has been deliberately misrepresented, I absolutely will not leave a feedback....The reason is that I buy such items for parts, and bid accordingly...An example would be "nice, original locomotive" with a bent cowcatcher....my opinion could be that it is junk, but If I am after the tender,, I still get what I want.....The seller is still a lying sack of crap in my book,, so I will not leave a good feedback that will mislead other eBayers....Now,,, does that make me an idiot for bidding on that steamer??? Lets go one step further....What if the guy will combine shipping ,,,,,I always check the buyers other items for sale... he may have a couple railcars that I am interested in...Even if the "buy it now price" may seem a little high,, the savings from combined shipping can well offset the higher price.....So now, in some eye's,,,I may really look like an idiot.....Not a problem with me..
Overall, I am pleased with eBay,, and have gotten my share of fair deals, along with some super deals....I have made around 1000 purchases on the net (namely eBay) over the years...Books, trains, tools, parts, computer parts,you name it...The nearest hobby shop is 65 miles...For many of the consumers,, The internet has boosted the number of purchases of hobby goods...I still support the hobby shops,, but the net is 24-7 and has proven to be a learning experience....I have been ripped off a few times, granted,,,but I in closing, I must tell you of a friend of mine who purchased a new computer at wally world recently...She brought the computer home and opened the sealed box..Inside, she found a bag of lawn fertilizer, a tee shirt and some newspaper....Wally world refunded the purchase price..The bottom of the box had been resealed...I have head of crooks doing simular things with trains before...Buy a unit, swap parts with their existing unit, and then return the "defective" unit....Makes you wonder why some people will not accept a return??? It seems that there are an unlimited number of ways to open a can of worms....Happy fishing...BDT
Lillen wrote: When I buy stuff from the U.S and get it to Sweden I can sometimes get away with not paying taxes. But as I have understood it if the value is low, say no more then 50$ they do not think it's worth it and let it slip through without duty or VAT. Maybe it's the same thing with Canada? Magnus
I had considered that while I was generating that post, Magnus, but I don't know the answer. It is entirely possible that a USD$30 turnout is not worth a clerk's time, while a USD$220 locomotive is.
I know that the agents do have discretion. When I returned to Canada after six months of peacekeeping in Bosnia, I declared a CDN$1400 binocular. It exceeded my limit, but I was waved through. Were they told to only go after the outrageous excesses, or were they being kind to an old soldier?
grayfox1119 wrote: There are those who haven't the faintest idea what something is worth. These people are wide open to being "taken" for a ride.Then, there are those who are so competitive at EVERYTHING in life, they MUST win, so they outbid everyone on EBAY for a 1972 roll of blue colored toilet paper, $550 dollars!!!!! But they WON !!! Yeaaaaaaa !!! A fool and his/her money are soon parted.
I just saw an auction for Champ Wabash Decals, two were OOP and went for more than I would pay for them. The third is still available from Champ @ $2.75 ea. yet the bidding was up to $3.50. It pays to investigate before buying and know your limits.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I had a bunch of Keystone sawmill equiptment that was going to be surplus after I bought an actual bandsaw mill kit. I payed $10 a kit and sold most for over $40 all to one guy who consistantly pays up to 6X retail for non OOP kits. I was happy he was happy. It's all what the market will bare I guess.
I payed $120 for a Sheepscott kit and the next one that went up went for over $600 same kit. My $120 winning bid didn't even meet the reserve, but I got it anyway.
I've prety much retired from e-bay as the shipping costs (read gouging) was getting ridiculous. I now have a network of reputable dealers whom I buy from after testing the waters with them at auction.
<> The biggest thing with auctions is KNOW YOUR PRICES before you bid and take into acount shipping ,taxes, etc a trip to your LHS may save you a bundle even if you have to wait a while.
10wheeler
This is good old fashioned American capitalism at work. The seller invested his money in an item he thought would appreciate in value if and when it became OOP. If production had continued, he would likely not even recouped his investment. He took a risk that proved to be a wise one and now he is reaping the reward. It's no different than somebody who buys a stock at a low price and sells it at a higher price. Buy low and sell high is the name of the game. He has something of value. It is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. There is nothing dishonest or dishonorable about what this person is doing. He's just doing business. If you don't think what he is offering is worth what he is asking for it, don't buy it. If you do decide to pay his asking price, it means what he has is worth what you are paying for it.
I happen to have two Walthers Sawmill kits because I bought one when it became available at my LHS, forgetting I had back ordered it through Trainworld. I could have returned it to Trainworld for a refund, minus a 15% restocking fee. I could sell it now on ebay and get close to what I paid for it now. I decided instead to hang on to it hoping it becomes OOP. In that case, it might be worth quite a bit more than what I have paid for it, and I can make few bucks to spend on something else I need. If Walthers continues to offer this kit, then it is unlikely I can sell it for a profit. I'll take that chance and will have no feelings of guilt if this move pays off for me.
Virginian wrote: If something is worth $50 to me, and the seller charges $25 shipping, I do not care. I just don't bid over $25. Why do people get upset that they have to read and pay attention to not get screwed? I thought that was normal life. If eBay doesn't like it, then they have a problem, not me, and they can deal with it, not me. Maybe if they didn't keep jacking their rates trying to squeeze another nickel people wouldn't be playing games the other way.
At $25 for shipping, I would hope you're buying a television or something bulky. I agree though, if it's something I really, really want, shipping cost doesn't or shouldn't matter. My problem is that if I were to pay a high price for shipping (and it's happened a couple of times), I expect to at LEAST get the item shipped priority mail. I had told the seller in one particular incident that the shipping cost was kind of high, and asked if he was going to ship priority. His reply was, "I always ship media mail, if you want priority, it'll cost 5 bucks more." The shipping was already at $9.95, so I decided to bite the bullet and pay the extra 5 bucks, and I told the guy, "I paid you more than enough for shipping, so give me a tracking number." Pissed as I was, I did get what I wanted that I had been after for a while (OOP video game).
As far as ebay raising their listing prices, if sellers would keep it honest with shipping (I really think the problem is there), ebay wouldn't raise their rates, or at least not too much. It's the same as any store, the higher the shoplifting rate, the higher the prices for merchandise in order for the store to make up for the losses.
jasperofzeal wrote: At $25 for shipping, I would hope you're buying a television or something bulky. I agree though, if it's something I really, really want, shipping cost doesn't or shouldn't matter. My problem is that if I were to pay a high price for shipping (and it's happened a couple of times), I expect to at LEAST get the item shipped priority mail.
If I pay $99 for the item and $1 shipping it's the same as $1 for the item and $99 for shipping. I really don't care what they charge for shipping as long as it is stated clearly up front.
el-capitan wrote: jasperofzeal wrote: At $25 for shipping, I would hope you're buying a television or something bulky. I agree though, if it's something I really, really want, shipping cost doesn't or shouldn't matter. My problem is that if I were to pay a high price for shipping (and it's happened a couple of times), I expect to at LEAST get the item shipped priority mail. If I pay $99 for the item and $1 shipping it's the same as $1 for the item and $99 for shipping. I really don't care what they charge for shipping as long as it is stated clearly up front.
Yes, but if you pay 99 dollars in shipping, would you want the slowest delivery method or the fastest without having to pay more? That's what I was getting at. I'm fair when I ship, I don't overcharge, I guess I expect the same from others but we don't always get what we want.
Well, eBay is like a mini-economy in action everyday...the basic principle behind real-life economy and how it operates...all based on the basic principle of 'supply and demand'. Supply goes down and demand goes up, then the price go up and vice versa.
What amazes me is how much people goes out of their way to complain about someone's prices etc. It's a free enterprise market, if you think it's too high then just walk away. Funny when the price is ridiculously low, no ne complains except the seller! ;-) LOL
Iceman_c27 wrote: Well, eBay is like a mini-economy in action everyday...the basic principle behind real-life economy and how it operates...all based on the basic principle of 'supply and demand'. Supply goes down and demand goes up, then the price go up and vice versa.What amazes me is how much people goes out of their way to complain about someone's prices etc. It's a free enterprise market, if you think it's too high then just walk away. Funny when the price is ridiculously low, no ne complains except the seller! ;-) LOL
Well said. The items mentioned in the original post have increased in value because they are now much rarer that when they were in production. For some reason, the original poster expects the seller to sell something valuable for less than what the market says it is worth. People don't seem to understand that a seller doesn't set the value of a product. The marketplace does. A seller can ask for any price he wants but that doesn't mean he will get that price. The true value of the item is the price both the buyer and seller agree upon.
Someone early mentioned this guy is no better than ticket scalpers. I have no problem with ticket scalpers. They are just businessmen doing business. They have bought a commodity that they expect they can sell later at a higher price. Anyone who wants a lesson in economics should observe the horsetrading that goes on before a sold out concert or sporting event. The ticket scalper has to be shrewd enough to judge what the buying public is going to be willing to pay for his tickets. If he overestimates the demand for tickets, he can take a bath. I have bought and sold tickets from scalpers on a number of occasions. I never came away from a transaction feeling I had gotten cheated. A number of years ago, I had an extra ticket to a Penn State-Ohio State football game. I began negotiating with a potential buyer when a scalper overheard the conversation and outbid the other buyer by $20. Guess who got the ticket. The original buyer cried that the other guy was just going to scalp the ticket. This was of no concern to me. I wanted to get the best price for my ticket with the least amount of hassle. I knew if I wanted to hang around outside the stadium, I could have gotten more for it, but I wanted to get inside and enjoy the atmosphere of the game. The scalper made quite a profit for selling my ticket for me and somebody else got to see the game who was willing to pay the market price. As for the original buyer I was dealing with, he either ponied up the going rate or went home and watched the game on TV. Either way, I didn't really care.