dehusman wrote:And also don't assume that what is true for the rest of the world is true for the US.
And also don't assume that what is true for the rest of the world is true for the US.
When the TGV line starts running 10 15,000 ton 135 car coal trains and 10 135 car empty sets plus another 20 7000 ft general manifest trains on the same line AND maintains the same high speed service, then come back and talk. My feeling is that if they ran the same size, weight and frequency of freight trains as the US, they would have the same service issues.
In many cases European freight trains wouldn't be considered to be big enough to be "trains" in the US.
I just think all these people who think you can mix 40 5-7000 ft, 5-15,000 ton freight trains a day and high speed passenger service on single or even double track routes don't understand the situation.
dehusman wrote: My feeling is that if they ran the same size, weight and frequency of freight trains as the US, they would have the same service issues.
My feeling is that if they ran the same size, weight and frequency of freight trains as the US, they would have the same service issues.
marknewton wrote: Dave, don't assume that what is true for the US is true for the rest of the world. In Europe, Australia and Japan, freight and high-speed passenger trains happily co-exist on the same right of way.
And also don't assume that what is true for the rest of the world is true for the US. When the TGV line starts running 10 15,000 ton 135 car coal trains and 10 135 car empty sets plus another 20 7000 ft general manifest trains on the same line AND maintains the same high speed service, then come back and talk. My feeling is that if they ran the same size, weight and frequency of freight trains as the US, they would have the same service issues.
So, I'm not against passenger rail, I commuted on SEPTA for 5 years when I lived in Phillie. I just think all these people who think you can mix 40 5-7000 ft, 5-15,000 ton freight trains a day and high speed passenger service on single or even double track routes don't understand the situation. If you want high speed rail, fine, fork over the bucks to create your own high speed right of way that goes to the palces it needs to go to serve passengers on a route that has the curvature and grades to permit high speed operation. Don't build an Indy race car and then complain its not going fast when you drive it through downton at rush hour.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote:But people who think that a modern freight railroad will be able to operate high speed passenger operation on the same right of way is living in a fantasy world.
But people who think that a modern freight railroad will be able to operate high speed passenger operation on the same right of way is living in a fantasy world.
andrechapelon wrote: Passenger service really needs to be disconnected from the freight railroads and passengers hauled on dedicated rights of way, especially if high speed service is desired. LA's Metrolink is on dedicated right of way as is CalTrain in the Bay Area north of the junction in Santa Clara.Andre
Passenger service really needs to be disconnected from the freight railroads and passengers hauled on dedicated rights of way, especially if high speed service is desired. LA's Metrolink is on dedicated right of way as is CalTrain in the Bay Area north of the junction in Santa Clara.
Andre
Sorry to disagree here, but passenger service doesn't need to be segregated from freight for good service. The example I would choose is the German DBAG rail network; there is still a good level of freight traffic (unlike the UK where it has virtually dissappeared except for some quarry traffic and a bit of intermodal) together with a first class fast, cheap and frequent passenger operation. I think the main difference is that most lines are double track and under the equivalent of CTC throughout the network. Like I said in an earlier post Germany has carried on investing in its public owned rail infrastructure since the end of WW2, even if some of the train operating companies are now privatised.
As an outsider looking in I would say that in the US since the death of railroad owned passenger service in the 1950 / 60s any rail infrastructure investment has been orientated solely at freight operation. In Europe its basically been the otherway round. To bring back a viable high speed passenger network in the US will mean spending many millions of $s to bring many sections of line back to an acceptable standard for fast frequent and safe passenger operation; this may be in new areas of CTC, putting back double track where it has been singled, etc. My guess is that those $s will be very hard to find until there is a pressing economic case for not using the private car.
grayfox1119 wrote: Dave: Passenger service "can" and "is" profitable on some Amtrak routes, like the DownEaster.....ridership is constantly increasing also.
Dave: Passenger service "can" and "is" profitable on some Amtrak routes, like the DownEaster.....ridership is constantly increasing also.
Depends on who's doing the accounting and if they are acounting for the cost of maintaining the track, etc.
It is very clear to me that if we ever have a national emergency, like Katrina, ( or God forbid worse ), we would need to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people in one hellava hurry.
Well duh, if we have a national emergency like Katrina the railroads will be able to move people away from the area. The limitations are the transportation system to get the people to the railhead, the transportation system to get the people from the destination railhead to shelter and the availability of passenger equipment. In the case of Katrina the freight railroads and Amtrak had passenger trains on point, ready to go, but the REST of the infrastructure couldn't support moving that many people at one time.
Andre: regarding "LA's Metrolink is on dedicated right of way " ... they must have corrected a problem they had. I recall a fright train collided with a Metolink train a couple of years ago.
I would love to see a fright train.
I misspoke. I was thinking of the Metrolink line from LAUPT to San Bernardino. Metrolink goes all over SoCal.
Midnight Railroader wrote: loathar wrote:Did you ever see the pics of that one bullet train that chucked a wheel at 200mph? Derailed into a concrete bridge. What a mess! Forget how many people died. I see they're dreaming of an under sea tube train between NY and Europe that's supposed to go 2500mph.Better get rid of those deadly jet airplanes, too; why, one crash can kill hundreds.
loathar wrote:Did you ever see the pics of that one bullet train that chucked a wheel at 200mph? Derailed into a concrete bridge. What a mess! Forget how many people died. I see they're dreaming of an under sea tube train between NY and Europe that's supposed to go 2500mph.
Good point! And most of them falling from the sky these days are Airbus products.
I saw that under sea train on Extreme Engineering. They're talking about anchoring a tube system to the bottom of the ocean. They said they would have to vacuum the air out of it to achieve the speeds they want.(can you say HUGE waste of money) Sounds like somebody just wants the grant money for the feasibility study.(sound familiar?)
P.S.-I'm partially modelling CP Rail. (Is that "French" enough?)
Back to soapbox and US government transport policies............. Rail transportation causes 1/3 of air polution than do trucks to haul frieght with equivalent ton-miles according to EPA. Also, railroads consume 1/3 of diesel fuel with equivalent ton-miles of freight.
The government knows trains are the better option. Yet, government policies still favor highways. Example is the proposed NAFTA highway connecting Mexico with Canada. All of that NAFTA bridge traffic should be on railcars.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
TheK4Kid wrote: loathar wrote:Did you ever see the pics of that one bullet train that chucked a wheel at 200mph? Derailed into a concrete bridge. What a mess! Forget how many people died. I see they're dreaming of an under sea tube train between NY and Europe that's supposed to go 2500mph. 2500 MPH??? Hmmm, have they considered the external heating issues caused by air friction?Things that go over 100 mph start to heat up from the air friction.Case in point, the X-15 rocketplane and the SR 71 blackbird which expands almost a foot in length from air friction heating and expansion.
2500 MPH???
Hmmm, have they considered the external heating issues caused by air friction?Things that go over 100 mph start to heat up from the air friction.
Case in point, the X-15 rocketplane and the SR 71 blackbird which expands almost a foot in length from air friction heating and expansion.
To reduce friction the plan was to make the train operate in a near vacuum environment.
Convenience is the key to people taking trains to work, and other locations. If I could drive to the CSX main line in my town, 2 miles away, and then take the train to a stop near enough to my former work location, that a van service could have regular drops at the companies along I-495, I would take the train in a heartbeat. Once people realize the savings on car insurance, the savings on fuel, the savings on mileage on the car, tires, engine wear, etc. not to mention the safety aspect of not getting into accidents in fowl weather, the stress, and rage drivers, cell phone driver idiots.....well, you get the picture.
Dave: Passenger service "can" and "is" profitable on some Amtrak routes, like the DownEaster.....ridership is constantly increasing also. What hurts Amtrak is single track delays such as what Andre experienced. This can be rectified with double track wherever there are bottlenecks. Also, by running as much freight as possible at night.
It is very clear to me that if we ever have a national emergency, like Katrina, ( or God forbid worse ), we would need to evacuate hundreds of thousands of people in one hellava hurry. The airlines would not succeed, they can't even handle baggage without losing 6.5% last year, (an increase over 2005 by the way). Everyone has to get to the location of the airport, but with trains, various pick-up points along the way would greatly enhance the ability to not jamb highways and have a more orderly and controlled evac.
MORE PASSENGER TRAINS.....
You're preaching to the choir. Last September I took Amtrak from Emeryville, CA to Boston, MA. Thanks to some "heads up" (relevant anatomical feature deleted) dispatching by UP & CSX dispatchers who thought 3 trains and one passing siding was a viable method of getting trains around each other, we lost 4 hours on each segment.
The CSX dispatcher was the more creative. He stuck us behind a slow moving freight on a segment of track with no passing siding for the better part of 40 miles. This was on a line that was once double tracked.
andrechapelon wrote: Don't confuse unprofitable with uneconomical. They're not identical concepts.
Don't confuse unprofitable with uneconomical. They're not identical concepts.
True but the comments were pointed at railroads, which are private commercial concerns, who certainly don't confuse unprofitable with uneconomical. They are in it for profits. Passenger service doesn't generate them.
Now if you want to acknowledge that passenger service will not pay for itself but, for environmental or capacity or whatever reasons, is important for the government or another entity NOT interested in generating profits to provide passenger service, go for the gusto. But people who think that a modern freight railroad will be able to operate high speed passenger operation on the same right of way is living in a fantasy world.
vsmith wrote:Yep, if it wasnt for the French, their Army and their Navy, we'de still be saying things like "Sorry old chap! Thats just bollacks" Drinking our beer warm and have bad dental hygene.
Ahhh ... I knew there was a reason I didn't like the French ... God Save the Queen!
'Scuse me squire, there's nothing wrong with my dental hygiene. And if you call your weak ice cold B*d or C**rs "beer" you are sadly mistaken.
And now on a slightly more serious note ...
... Yes of course this was a publicity stunt - don't notice too many Americans doing those at all? In the high tech engineering for the record attempt anyone consider that their engineers might just be testing out the technology of the future? The TGV runs across several European countries at 320km/h (that's about 198mph for the metrically challenged) at the moment, who's to say it won't go faster in service in the future?
I think the other thing that is forgotten in the US is that France (and most of the EU for that matter) are social democracies far, far out to the left of the political spectrum from the US - and Britain for that matter although we are heading that way - I'll get off my now.
This means they have BIG government. If you are paying 50% income tax then you expect the public services to work properly. France and Germany have invested heavily in their public owned rail networks consistently for 50 years or more - which is why its cheap and such a pleasant experience to travel by rail in continental Europe.
To answer the poster's original question; no I won't be modelling it, not because of any sense of misplaced politcal jingoism, it sure looked great whizzing through the French countryside - but there's just a chance that the German equivalent (ICE) may turn up on my N scale layout - but not going quite that fast!
The interesting thing was it was in was the "100 Years Ago" column and the article was originally written in 1905. So maybe the lesson we have failed to learn from history is that hauling people by rail isn't economical.
Don't confuse unprofitable with uneconomical. They're not identical concepts. A public library is an extremely economical way of getting books to people (who then return them with they're through). Nobody in their right mind would try to make a library a profit center.
BTW, the airline industry as a whole has been unprofitable since its inception. http://faculty.dwc.edu/karlsson/AM410/Papers/F2005MoreauFinal.pdf Whether or not it's an uneconomical form of transport is a different question entirely. Naturally, we won't mention the fact that the whole infrastructure of commercial aviation is paid for by the taxpayer.
Intercity buses? Most of that cost of that infrastructure is paid for by other than the bus companies. Can you imagine Greyhound if it had to pay to build and maintain its routes, even if it split the cost with trucking companies?
And the automobile? Now there's an an uneconomical mode of transportation if there ever was one. Especially if there's only one person in each vehicle. I'll grant you it's a convenient form of transport, but it's hardly economical since most automobiles spend the overwhelming majority of their lives parked somewhere (even my 5 year old Odyssey, which has over 115,000 miles on the odometer).
Railroads were "king of the hill" prior to ICC (1887 I think but I'd have to check that) and regulations that followed.
US railroads had best passenger service in the world circa 1950. However, politicians payed too much attention to highway lobby. Uncle Sam spent big bucks on highways and on airports. With all that competition railroads could not increease fares to match cost inflation rates. Red ink began to flow. Uncle Sam took away mail contracts giving them to highways and airways. Much more red ink flowed. Railroads could not make money with passenger biz under those circumstances. Trains were discontinued. Service suffered. Trains were not kept clean. Passengers left railroads for other modes. Much, much more red ink for rail passenger biz.
Amtrak was created by Congress with a mandate to be financially self sufficient. Fat chance! Highways lose money. Airports lose money. Highways and airports get more than 100 times Amtrak funding, decade after decade.
Amtrak can not be financially self sufficient. Congressmen need to use their noggins.
Uncle Sam's transport policies have created our addiction to oil.
Interestingly, the Big Three auto makers who advocated federal spending on highways have lost half their market share to foreign automakers.
grayfox1119 wrote: As we have all heard so very many times, those who refuse to learn from history, will surely be doomed by it. Case in point, the Railroads were king of the hill in moving freight and people back in 19th and early 20th century.
As we have all heard so very many times, those who refuse to learn from history, will surely be doomed by it. Case in point, the Railroads were king of the hill in moving freight and people back in 19th and early 20th century.
A year or so ago there was a short article in Railway age in which the author was talking about how when all things were considered passenger service really wasn't profitable and probably never was.
What can we do? Join the AARP ( American Association of Railroad Passengers ) and support their efforts to get more Federal funding intheir budgets for upgrading and expansion. Call or email our state and federal legislators to support railroads and interstate high speed passenger services.
I'm already a member of AARP (American Association of Retired People). I think you meant NARP (National Association of Railroad Passengers). http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php
As we have all heard so very many times, those who refuse to learn from history, will surely be doomed by it. Case in point, the Railroads were king of the hill in moving freight and people back in 19th and early 20th century. But they sat on their laurels and never realized that moving people was equally as important as freight.
Then, when President Eisenhower realized during WW2 that our Interstate highway system was one big vulnerability to our country's security, the big highway expansion began. After the war, everyone wanted to travel.....cars were king for families, they could travel anythime, anywhere they wished, at less then $.20 a gallon.
What was the railroad industry doing during those time? Nothing!!! The railroads where in decay, many railroads were either being swallowed up or going out of business.
Had the top management of the Railroads had any foresight whatsoever, they could have seen this coming and planned for better service to carry passengers.
Our government, Stae and Ferderal, shares in this oversight. Like the stock market, they see, and plan, SHORT TERM.
Now that 9/11, the growing oil shortage, the growing green house gas controversy with Global Warming at our front doors, the dependancy on foreign oil, and the failures of the airline industry, have all demonstrated that we need a far better infrastructure to move people in greater numbers, faster, over greater distances.
I see signs of this happening. What Amtrak is trying to do, what they were able to do during this past winter snows in the midwest and Denver when cars, trucks and planes went nowhere. Ridership has steadily increased on the DownEaster that runs from Boston to Portland Maine and beyond soon. The Acela with it's highspeed East coast routes.
Here in Ma, they are trying to build a double track now from Boston to Worcester in central Ma, and hopefully fill in the areas with no double tracks from Worcester to Springfield. This will eliminate the freight/passenger train scheduling problems.
What can we do? Join the NARP ( National Association of Railroad Passengers ) and support their efforts to get more Federal funding intheir budgets for upgrading and expansion. Call or email our state and federal legislators to support railroads and interstate high speed passenger services.
When I see the news at night, and the traffic reports on video camera location, and see millions of cars all jammed up travelling to/from Boston ( only ONE city in this country ), I shake my head and say " why don't we have high speed railroads here, look at all the gas and polution we could save" , and these cars mostly have ONE (1) person in the car....how STUPID are we!!!
OK, that is my , sorry if I bored you guys too much, but I had to get this off my chest.
It's a huge achievement for mankind I believe, because don't forget this is on normal train tracks and NOT the Mag-Lev trains! I have the priviledge of riding on the Mag-Lev train in SHanghai China 2 years ago and I can tell you, it's NOT borning at all! Can't wait to ride in the new TGV one day!
http://www.actionsupplies.biz/images/pix/China%20055.mpg
http://www.actionsupplies.biz/images/pix/China%20056.mpg
:-)
S W O O O O O O S S S H H ! ! !
Dave Vollmer wrote: Just as we Americans are getting quite sick of foreigners bashing all 300 million of us because of their disagreements with our administration's policies, starting now I will do my best to remember that the French people and their foreign policies are not the same thing either.
That's pretty cool.
I wonder why we couldn't have praised the accomplishment without bringing politics into it at all, though.
I will stand by this...
Nobody in the world moves FREIGHT the way we do in the USA.
As for the America-bashing... it's so last week. We get it. The Iraq thing. OK. We know. We know!
BTW, as an American veteran (Iraq and Bosnia), I don't just talk smack about American policy, I've lived it. But that's beside the point.
Also, over on another forum, I started French-bashing, and I realize it was wrong. I'm not a big fan of French foreign policy (or lack thereof), but the French have done a wonderful thing with this high-speed train.
Just as we Americans are getting quite sick of foreigners bashing all 300 million of us because of their disagreements with our administration's policies, starting now I will do my best to remember that the French people and their foreign policies are not the same thing either.
Good for the French. I hope someday we have the forsight in America to invest more in rail travel. Especially given how much we already subisize the airlines...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Hey!
Anyone remember the French train that did around 575kph a few days ago, certainly got alot of attention, even non-train types mentioned it to me, pity it nearly started World War 3.
Trains are fun, big or small, fast or slow.
I live in Qld, Australia, I know what slow trains are - Oh ! I forgot, we have a 100mph Daily Tilt train that runs on 3'6" gauge - 'most of the time'.
Teditor.
Teditor
Regardless of who won and who lost I know one thing for sure that Train was flying and if we don't take advantage of this technology we will all be loosers in the end!
BTW: Blue Jays are going to win the World Series this year
Have a peaceful Holiday
Fergie
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007