I fought converting for years. I was perfectly content with my spider web of wires, and banks of toggle switches. But when I started operating on a large club layout (full operations, huge layout, tons of trains and operators) with DCC, there was simply no turning back.
Within a few years I have chipped all of my engines, even doing the N scale micro surgery myself lately, and am completely satisfied with the results. I bought an MRC Prodigy Advance system on the merit of a very favorable review in MR, and I've never enjoyed operating my layout more than I do now.
I contend that there are two kinds of model railroaders... Those who love DCC, and those who haven't tried it yet.
If you have tried it and didn't like it, you were probably using an early generation Digitrax system, which has a pretty steep learning curve. The MRC system completely eliminates that. Everything you need to do is right on the hand held, including programming, consisting, and toggling between trains. I've got one reversing circuit on a wye track, and I will shortly be automating that.
One of the simple pleasures of DCC is the ability to take photos of your equipment with the lights on!
With the new N scale Bachmann H-16-44 set up for easy conversion to DCC for $35, it's obvious that the market is shifting. I agree, DC cab control will die out with those who cling to it...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
I would like to add my voice to those asking that we go back to the original question and deal with it as limited, or operationalized, by the asker. I worked hard in composing my own response to ensure that I was even-handed, and I tried to figure out what was good and positive about each way of doing trains. In that sense, DC operations have a distinct advantage over DCC operations for those who want to continue to "work" the layout.
I will not change...ever...to DC, even with the advent of Blue Line and potential competitors' products that are meant for the DC guys, but I operate alone, and I like to manage only two locomotives at once on my rather tiny layout. As others have said, that is where DCC shines. It is less hands-on for the guy who doesn't want to be reaching for his panel every 5 seconds. But, DCC can still make a large layout run like a clock. It still takes a coordinatiing mind to manage the traffic, not unlike the real world, and the hog heads, with radio, can follow along and toot horns, ring bells, align turnouts.
hminky wrote: A small layout is impossible to operate multiple locomotives without DCC. Besides DC is dead, it is only looking for a place to fall down. The advantages of DCC and sound far outway the expense. Wiring for DC is a real pain. Harold
A small layout is impossible to operate multiple locomotives without DCC. Besides DC is dead, it is only looking for a place to fall down. The advantages of DCC and sound far outway the expense. Wiring for DC is a real pain.
Harold
hminky wrote:<snip>...You can push your trains around the track with one hand, blowing on your wooden whistle and chuffing with your box of Good n' Plenties.
You have 5DCC too!? wow, I thought I was the only one...
OK, OK, so it was LAST year's April Fools ad... but I think it fits here
Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Back to the original topic and question of this post which had to do with does one type of control system lead to better operations, does one lead to a higher level involvement amongst an operating group.
I've built and operated a mid-sized club layout that was built and wired with standard 6 cab DC. There is a certain level of complexity to the wiring, but once you understand the process it is all repetitive. I've also operated on fairly good sized DCC layouts going back to Onboard command control through to current DCC systems. Both work if planned out properly and everyone understands their assigned duties.
There seems to be some confusion about operations and what purpose a CTC dispatcher serves. On the prototype a dispatcher's job is to route trains through his territory in the most efficient manner possible. He controls what trains run on what tracks, he controls certain mainline turnouts, and he controls, to some degree, the signal indications a engineer sees. If it is dark territory then the trains operates on train orders and track warrants. Power has nothing to do with it.
The same can be done on a model railroad, regardless of the power system. On a DC controlled layout and additional task that may be performed by the dispatcher is the controlling what cab has power to a specific block. A layout with walkaround control can also have that task performed by the road crew. For example, the dispatcher could issue order for train #3 to proceed from AB to CD. With fascia mounted toggles or rotary switches the road crew would then select the blocks necessary to move his train from AB to CD. The dispatcher is responsible for controlling the turnouts and signals that provide him the authority to make such a move. The level of involvement comes from having the dispatcher read the train order to the crew, the crew repeats it back, and like on many prototypes, calls out signals as his movement progresses until he reachs CD and then contacts the dispatcher for additional authority. Throw in a fast clock for timetable operations and you've moved to another level of operation and interaction.
The same scenario applys if a layout used DCC with the exception that the road crew doesn't need to select the blocks needed to move from AB to CD. The distacher would still give the crew authority to move in his territory, perhaps giving the crew a certain amount of time in which to complete the movement. But the process is the same.
I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.
jktrains
O.K, fair enough. In sticking with the topic................
There have been many DC Club Layouts over the years that have operated successfully. The only one that I've been "up close and personal" with, where I wasn't just a spectator, has been the Suncoast Model Railroad Club layout. I had to drop out temporarily due to job demands, but I'm re-joining this summer. http://www.suncoastmrrc.com There are two layouts, one HO and the other N.
Built years back, the huge HO layout was originally 100% DC with no considerations made for command control. As large as the layout is, only a small number of modelers could run trains at one time due to the DC cab/routing control system. To me, it was a bit intimidating.
In 2005, after some debate the layout was converted to DCC/DC operation. With a flip of a switch, the layout could be operated in either mode. Certain days were designated for DC operation, other days DCC.
Funny thing: On the nights designated for DC operation, the number of DC modelers continued to shrink. Turns out these guys were going DCC as well! Like me, they were turned on by the freedom, special FX, and extras with sound. So when the last guy running DC locomotives would leave, the wall switch was flipped and the remaining modelers would stay, sometimes til 12:00a.m, running in DCC mode. That rarely happened during the pre-DCC days.
BTW: Head on and Rear end collisions did occur. Everyone had to remember that since locomotives could go anywhere-anytime, we were no longer restricted by DC cabs, we had to be alert.........just like prototype railroaders. To us, that made the layout even more fun!
The memebers on tight budgets did what is often suggested: Install one decoder at a time and/or they bought dual mode locomotives. Some of these guys are on social security income. That's why the "I can't afford it" remark just doesn't wash with me. One retired gentleman I spoke to told me he had 100+ locomotives, but he liked DCC so much that he was going to convert his favorites and that many of his other locomotives just sat on a shelf anyway.
After the conversion, and working out a few bugs, more modelelers were able to run trains at one time. Two very knowledgeable modelers held DCC clinics. As a result even the members that were initially hesitant about the conversion are speaking positively of it. Membership numbers also increased. The layout is a joy to run trains on. The only switches I had to flip were turnouts in the yard and the mainline.
IMHO, the really "cool" factor about this whole experience has been seeing a good number of over 50 guys that like DCC. Back in 2003, I often heard stories that "most old timers" are entrenched in DC and can't be bothered. Glad to see that turned out to be a hobby myth.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Awright, I'll throw my two cents into the pot...
I got tired of flipping that directional switch ok? That Tech 4 was good but not THAT good.
One of my BLI steamers developed an attitude problem after a certain number of flips. It's almost as if the computer on it tired of trying to figure out the fist and decide which was it that I wanted to do.
Enter the sidekick. Ok but two buttons is that it?
Bought the PCM Reading T1. No bell or whistle. Learned that I need thier DCC Master with more buttons and more wiring to the analog power pack. BLEAH. Never mind the recent Y6b bundle sale with ANOTHER DCC master... yeesh!
Oh yea just when I thought the world is teetering on the brink of control box add-on's to ananlog power packs I see that Round House added a Hand Held battery OPERATED radio control box for IT's 4-4-0. YIKES!
I think I bought just the one 4-4-0 vowing to throw away any more hand held radio control crap should I buy any more in the future. I applaud thier inventiveness and ability to give people without DCC a easy way to make a locomotive hoot and hollar on command.
Kind of like my car security key ring, press "Unlock" in a BIG parking lot and wonder how many cars I just unlocked within my 50 foot range in that parking deck?
Now my bench looks like a rube goldberg with potential for needing MORE stuff to make DCC operate in Analog. The writing was clear. Stop this insanity now.
Enter the Super Chief. Pack up all the other stuff except the power pack and box it.
Now I can retain control and configure the engines any way I want to. I dont expect to do anything except maybe upgrade to radio. The cost was a one time 700- total including the power supply which is quite strong. I dont expect to buy another DC control system ever again. I might add more throttles or boosters for power districts but that is about it.
Im actually positioning to use my personal computer to reprogram my Reading T1 or have Tony's do it soon because I never liked the crappy whistle on it. But that is a Frankenstien yet to be brought to life.
Now when one of my engines get an attitude, a global reset and coffee time re-programming gets it back in compliance. None of that rube goldberg DC analog add-on push button crap for me.
Dont confuse with DC and DCC. I run dual mode QSI almost exclusively so that I can travel to other people's railroads or clubs in the area and run it on thier rails regardless of what they have as a control system.
And yes this will come up again and again in these forums I dont have a problem with it.
Oh, one last thing. DC is the first thing I learned about running trains and it is unlikely that I will ever stop using that to control pure analog trains, some of which still sneaks around from time to time past it's electronics-loaded/bloated DCC Brothers.
I do pine for the once simple days of a good Blue Box Athearn Desiel with nothing more than a dallop of oil, soldering iron and 12 volt automotive wire to fix problems from time to time.
Or better yet, to be at a big club and see a 5 engine coal train stall with the shouted words "HEY! WHO THE &^%%$ JUST TOOK MY BLOCK?" meaning to take away the electricity that was assigned to that part of track at that moment in time.
What a sight when 20 operators audit thier power settings to find out which was the offending power stealer.
NeO6874 wrote: ...Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
...Anyway, as far as DC/DCC go, until DCC becomes as cheap as DC is *right now* AND there's something "better" than DCC - I think this debate is going to continue... maybe there will even still be some guys who don't use any of the (future) "new fangled" electronic wizardy and continue to run their layouts on straight DC with all of it's complexities, because they have heard the "troubles" with these systems (regardless of the fact that those troubles were from X years in the past when the systems were still brand new)
I believe the cost factor has already started to equalize, if not completely done so. While certainly not top of the line, I got 4 Bachmann GP-35's (2 CSX for my son, 2 WM's for me) in HO with DCC installed for $30 a piece. In N scale, Bachmann's H-16-44 with an easily installed Digitrax DZ-123 can be had for around $50. Atlas offers DCC-installed N scale locos that typically street for about $90. These prices are not outrageous at all. Sound systems add to the cost now, but if they can put sound chips in $5 greeting cards, it's only a matter of time until the technology brings sound in under $100.
As for operational advantages, DCC completely blows DC cab control away. I can sit on my elevated bar stool with my hand-held controler, and run any train anywhere on the layout. Currently my main line switches are operated by Tortoises that are wired to switch controls, so I have to get up and move about to change a route, but I have the option to chip my turnouts so they can be routed remotely from a CTC office, just like the prototype (you can do this in DC also, but you need a million miles of wire to connect everything.)
As complex as DCC may seem to some, it's real beauty is its utter simplicity.
...you can say all the mean stuff you want about me but I am right
Clang..Your suggestions are good ones.(gotta be carefull about the woman though! )
Yes, its when debates get hostile that things head south. Doubtful this type of debate will end anytime soon. They're going on the other forums as well.
But there's no reason to flame you Clang. Remember, as long as we're cordial with each other than we can still agree to disagree. The same guys that disagree on this topic often wind up helping each other on other topics.
I know you and I flamed each other on the other thread but you have to remember that when we type a comment that can be deemed hostile, even if it's not the intent, the response may be so. IE: I've developed a lot of respect for Paul3, yet he an I had some strong disagreements in the past. I had to get into the habit of re-reading his posts and realize that he wasn't being nasty, just that he has a direct, right-to-the-point style of writing that winds up being of great value on the forums.
Clang, I'm saying the following in a friendly manner: I've read some of your past responses. I get the impression that you're a pleasant person with a sharp mind, but heavy on the defensive side. Notice how you ended your post above? It's as if you were "On guard, ready for a tussle". Yet your suggestions come off as good and right to the point. So just keep on posting, but relax your guard a little bit.
High Greens
Safety Valve,In the 18 years I been in the club and since the rebuild in 92 It is impossible to hear the supposedly cry of "who got my block?" The DS controls ALL main line blocks and the Yardmaster controls the year blocks..Joint blocks-inbound,outbound and runner is govern by red or green LEDs and permission must be obtain from the Yardmaster before the hostler can enter the runner track.Both the Yardmaster and Hostler must obtain permission from the DS to use either the inbound or outbound track.
A green signal will appear on the tracks you have permission to use and then you can flip your "YARD/MAIN" switch to "Yard" or "ET(Engine Terminal)" and make your move..Who knows you may have to wait on a inbound!!!
After you complete your move you flip the switch back to "main"..If you forget a red light on the CTC board tells the DS and he will radio you and remind you to "normalize" your JTS.
I once operated on a home layout that was total chaos because of the poor DC block design..I never did return even when I was ask several times..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote:Safety Valve,In the 18 years I been in the club and since the rebuild in 92 It is impossible to hear the supposedly cry of "who got my block?" The DS controls ALL main line blocks and the Yardmaster controls the year blocks..Joint blocks-inbound,outbound and runner is govern by red or green LEDs and permission must be obtain from the Yardmaster before the hostler can enter the runner track.Both the Yardmaster and Hostler must obtain permission from the DS to use either the inbound or outbound track.A green signal will appear on the tracks you have permission to use and then you can flip your "YARD/MAIN" switch to "Yard" or "ET(Engine Terminal)" and make your move..Who knows you may have to wait on a inbound!!!After you complete your move you flip the switch back to "main"..If you forget a red light on the CTC board tells the DS and he will radio you and remind you to "normalize" your JTS. I once operated on a home layout that was total chaos because of the poor DC block design..I never did return even when I was ask several times..
I'll bet all those snappy controls cost quite a bit more to install than a DCC system...
Brakie, you have a point.
Cheers.
Lee,Not really..One of the members is electrical contractor and let us have them at his cost and he donated several as well...
Also as I stated DCC wouldn't work for the club..We have operational melt downs as it is with DC when ever one of the yard falls behind.This is usually cause by a rookie yardmaster.
I will also mention only 8 out of 47 members wants DCC.After the DCC issue was settled by popular vote 2 of those guys quit..No big lost..They only showed up once or twice a month to operate and every business meeting to push DCC...
Time for more grease on the fire...
We have both systems on our layout at the Oshkosh Model Railroad Club. We use an admittedly complicated switch-system to control what is powering what. The advantage is that we can run both DC and DCC...AT THE SAME TIME! This satisfies both crowds. There are those that love DCC and won't use anything else and those that feel the same way about DC. It's kind of a best-of-both-worlds scenario. We have technically 3 yards and a double tracked main that can run either power. This system seems to work best especially in the handoff of trains in the yards. They're usually DC and the mains are usually DCC.
Dan
Dave Vollmer wrote: CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).Gotta disagree. With DCC you can have your computer do the dispatching, simulating real CTC. It's much cheaper to install some software (like JMRI Pro) on your computer and have it work with DCC than manually installing a real CTC machine (like Tony Koester's AM) and doing it all manually.I would say that from what I've seen, DCC actually makes it easier to run the railroad like a real railroad.
CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).
AntonioFP45 wrote:CSX Robert,In prototype railroads, the dispatcher is assigning routes to various trains, adjusting schedeules, etc. If the engineers misunderstand or disobey the dispatcher, near misses or collisions can occur.DCC duplicates this flawlessly. With DC cab controls routings, collisions between opposing trains are almost completely eliminated. But while it will help keep trains safer, imho, it deprives operators of the "feel and flavor" of what prototype dispatchers and locomotive crews have to experience as far as avoiding collisions.
jktrains wrote:...I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.jktrains
CSX Robert wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: CSX Robert wrote:If you want the dispatcher to have control over where the trains will go, then it is easier and less expensive to accomplish in DC(I am not saying it can't be done with DCC, but it is EASIER and LESS EXPENSIVE with DC).Gotta disagree. With DCC you can have your computer do the dispatching, simulating real CTC. It's much cheaper to install some software (like JMRI Pro) on your computer and have it work with DCC than manually installing a real CTC machine (like Tony Koester's AM) and doing it all manually.I would say that from what I've seen, DCC actually makes it easier to run the railroad like a real railroad.I don't think you understand what I was saying. If you use JMRI and DCC to do the dispatching, the dispatcher tells the engineer where to go, but he does not have control over where he goes. He may control turnouts, but he is relying on the engineer to not proceed into a block that he is not supposed to proceed into. AntonioFP45 wrote:CSX Robert,In prototype railroads, the dispatcher is assigning routes to various trains, adjusting schedeules, etc. If the engineers misunderstand or disobey the dispatcher, near misses or collisions can occur.DCC duplicates this flawlessly. With DC cab controls routings, collisions between opposing trains are almost completely eliminated. But while it will help keep trains safer, imho, it deprives operators of the "feel and flavor" of what prototype dispatchers and locomotive crews have to experience as far as avoiding collisions.I understand the job of a dispatcher and I agree with the rest of your post completely, but not everyone wants their crews to have to worry about avoiding collisions. jktrains wrote:...I think people misunderstand what the job of a dispatcher is. Their primary job is not to control track power, but it is to ensure the smooth flow of traffic across the territory, DC or DCC make no difference to the primary job. The dispatchers job is more akin to an orchestra conductor; they try to get eveyone playing together smoothly.jktrainsI don't know if you were refering to me specifically, but again I do know the job of a dispatcher; however, some people do want the dispatcher to control the track power on their layouts.I hope I'm not sounding defensive, but Im just trying to clarify what appear to be msunderstandings about what I said earlier.
CSX Robert, I wasn't refering specifically to you. Others in this discussion thread, IMO mistakenly think that the job of the dispatcher is to control the routing of power to blocks on the layout. And then conclude since DCC eliminates the need for block control, it eliminates the need for a dispatcher. You could arguably say that DCC increases the need for a real dispatcher becuase trains can freely operate across the layout. Years ago I had the opportunity to take a tour through the BN dispatching center Galesburg. The center dispatch most of IL, IA, into MO and KY. The etechnology ranged from computerized control with track diagram panels located on the wall to CTC type panels to train order on paper. BY the regardlerss of the method used by the dispatcher, the job was still the same - routing traffic effeciently across their subdivision.
CNW 6000 wrote: Time for more grease on the fire...We have both systems on our layout at the Oshkosh Model Railroad Club. We use an admittedly complicated switch-system to control what is powering what. The advantage is that we can run both DC and DCC...AT THE SAME TIME! This satisfies both crowds. There are those that love DCC and won't use anything else and those that feel the same way about DC. It's kind of a best-of-both-worlds scenario. We have technically 3 yards and a double tracked main that can run either power. This system seems to work best especially in the handoff of trains in the yards. They're usually DC and the mains are usually DCC.
Dan,As the club's"problem solver"(please don't ask) I suggested a duel system and rotating operating sessions between DCC and DC and that went over like a lead brick because of the number of locomotives needed for a normal operation and only 8 members wanted DCC even though several others half heartily said they *might* be interested in DCC operation but,still voted down DCC went the vote was taken.
Here is MY thoughts..
Seeing 75% the locomotives on the layout are Athearn and combine with DCC throttles and decoders being high price I believe that put the nails in the DCC coffin more then anything..
Brakie,75% of the locos in your club are Athearn? As in "Blue Box" Athearn? That seems a little high to me, logically. If only because of the existance of Atlas, Kato, Proto, BLI, etc., and the corresponding dramatic increase in the number of other models available. Unless your club members just aren't buying new things? Shrug.
At my club, even when I first saw the place in 1990, Athearn's were not such a vast majority. Atlas with it's RS-1, RS-3, RS-11, GP7, GP40, S-2, S-4, FP7, etc. had taken a real slice out of the total percentage of locos on the layout. I think I'd have to go back to the early to mid 1980's for a 75% type majority of Athearn locos.
And these days, I think the number of Athearn's has dropped to under 10% on our total roster.
But if you say it's 75% at your club, I believe you. But man, does that sound like a really high percentage...
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul,Its no secrete that the area I live in is a blue collar area and that of course reflects in the club membrship..We have 80% blue collar,15% various service jobs,5% white collar and 5% retiree as members..
Athearn,Atlas and P2K diesels are used with Athearn being the most prevalent-75%.This include BB,RTR and Genesis..Oddly Bachmann diesels will not be seen nor will Walthers except for a handful of GP15s and F40PH.Oddly come all steam operation and brass steam locomotives from the 50/60s appear as well as P2K and Spectrum.We have one member that uses his Hobbytown RS3s he built in the 60s!! We have one 27 year old member that builds and runs Bowser steamers.This guy can from a area club that ask him to refrain from running his steamers because they are to noisy.
I also suspect Athearn locomotives are prevalent because the locomotives stay on the layout..I suspect there is always 250 locomotives on the layout including stagging.
The other HO club I am a member of Atlas and P2K are the dominate locomotives with Athearn RTR in third place.You will see Bachmann,BLI and Walthers here..However,everybody takes their cars and locos home after each operation session.
.
ghonz711 wrote:DCC right? Wrong! The layout was run on a seemingly flawless DC system with an additional Quantum Engineer added to one of the throttles. The trains operated extremely smoothly over the entire layout. I was shocked to see that all of this was possible with DC, for (in my current situation of non-dcc ready locomotives from IHC) much cheaper than it would be to purchase a DCC system and suitable decoders. I have done some surfing on the Internet and found that a Digitrax Zephyr System, along with ten decoders, and extra cab to be close to $1000 dollars Canadian. DC would be much cheaper, considering that all I really need is a few feet of wire and an extra throttle, and if I chose, the Quantum Engineer. I do have a BLI locomotive that I am enjoying currently by flipping the direction switch back and forth, but to be able to control all of the sound and light functions on the locomotive in DC is extremely new to me.The railroad seemed much less interesting, although not nearly as close to complete as the YRM layout, because it seemed almost too easy to get a train up and running, throwing turnouts from the handheld, chatting as your train was traversing the length of the railroad. I found that using DC, you had to have a more detailed understanding of the railroad, your train, and all of the other trains running at the same time. The sound of the locomotives was broken often by calls to other operators asking for track clearance and such (which actually had to be obtained, considering that opposite polarities in DC would short out the track). It seemed much more 'action packed.' Am I missing something? Because every thread I've read seems to have some extremely valid and direction shifting points to both systems. I would love to hear from some other people who have experienced either flawless DC operation or perhaps, detailed and 'action packed' DCC railroads that required flipping switches, and communicating with the rest of the group in such an, if not more, intense manor.Ghonz
DCC right? Wrong! The layout was run on a seemingly flawless DC system with an additional Quantum Engineer added to one of the throttles. The trains operated extremely smoothly over the entire layout. I was shocked to see that all of this was possible with DC, for (in my current situation of non-dcc ready locomotives from IHC) much cheaper than it would be to purchase a DCC system and suitable decoders. I have done some surfing on the Internet and found that a Digitrax Zephyr System, along with ten decoders, and extra cab to be close to $1000 dollars Canadian. DC would be much cheaper, considering that all I really need is a few feet of wire and an extra throttle, and if I chose, the Quantum Engineer. I do have a BLI locomotive that I am enjoying currently by flipping the direction switch back and forth, but to be able to control all of the sound and light functions on the locomotive in DC is extremely new to me.
The railroad seemed much less interesting, although not nearly as close to complete as the YRM layout, because it seemed almost too easy to get a train up and running, throwing turnouts from the handheld, chatting as your train was traversing the length of the railroad. I found that using DC, you had to have a more detailed understanding of the railroad, your train, and all of the other trains running at the same time. The sound of the locomotives was broken often by calls to other operators asking for track clearance and such (which actually had to be obtained, considering that opposite polarities in DC would short out the track). It seemed much more 'action packed.' Am I missing something? Because every thread I've read seems to have some extremely valid and direction shifting points to both systems.
I would love to hear from some other people who have experienced either flawless DC operation or perhaps, detailed and 'action packed' DCC railroads that required flipping switches, and communicating with the rest of the group in such an, if not more, intense manor.
Ghonz
The control system doesn't dictate the operational feel nearly as much as the layout and operational plan, especially on a medium-to-small home layout.
DCC's forte is ease of control of track that is intensively shared between multiple locomotives and trains. This is because DCC addresses the locomotive rather than the track block. Where multiple trains and/or locomotives are not intensively sharing the same track, the need to address locomotives directly is not nearly as critical.
An example would be my planned home layout. It's designed for basically point-to-point for both an HO and an HOn3 line, with not much switching or meeting capability in between the 4 towns/terminals. Dual guage track will likely be minimal - perhaps a turntable and/or wye and maybe a transfer track or two. I anticipate a maximum of one operator working each town or transiting between 2 towns at any given time - the track arrangement is too simple to support more. Sequential operations rather than scheduled are the order of the day. In my case, DCC strengths don't particularly apply. I will probably eventually install DCC for the sound and for compatibility with modular setups, but it's a low priority at present. Again, in my particular case, DC is probably simpler to set up, and isn't much more difficult to operate - provided I have a good understanding of DC wiring. Knowledge of how to set up DC wiring, placing block boundaries, and the like isn't nearly as common as it used to be.
On the other hand, just 2 people operating 2 trains simultaneously on a 4x8 with a short continuous loop would probably be much happier with DCC. DCC eliminates having to focus so much attention on flipping block toggles in the cases where the track is crowded and the number of operators is few.
You are right about one thing - operation with DC requires better operator knowledge of the layout than DCC. The DC engineer must know where the block boundaries are, and the impact on power distribution (if any) of throwing a given turnout. This can be good or bad, depending on how familiar the normal operating crew is expected to be with a given layout. In real life, operation of a large DC layout with multiple crews requires at least some key positions be filled with folks who know the layout intimately. This cannot be done with something like a Free-mo setup where the track plan changes every setup. Consequently, Free-mo requires Digitrax DCC.
Sound is easier with DCC because the same controller addresses all sounds in all sound-equipped locomotives. Each DC sound decoder brand currently has its own proprietary controller. The other issue with DC sound is that much of the voltage control range is used for the sound electronics. The Model Railroader reviews consistently show a sound locomotive in DC mode doesn't start moving until track voltage gets into the 7-9 volt range. Doesn't leave a very large range for control under DC, and makes consisting between sound and non-sound locos impossible. In my case, these reasons, plus the possibility to combine synchronized under-the-table sound with on-board sound are why I will eventually switch to DCC.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Thanks for everyone posting so far. Yes I know this pretty much exhausts the topic beyond measure, but I just had to get some answers for my own knowledge and I am sure some others will find this information useful.
Ironically, while many of you were squabbling over Dispatchers, I realized that I forgot to mention that on the DC Controlled YRM layout, there was no designated dispatcher. All of the mainline cabs included panels with major junction controls and power distribution toggle switches. When power was being transferred to a particular block, an LED would light up on the panel. If power was not being transferred, then the LED remained dark. In yard locations, the yardmaster had ultimate control over the area and had his own panel, with the ability to route power to either the mainline cabs or to his own cab. I personally found it quite interesting.
Once again, my own personally polarity has shifted on the issue, from DC to DCC in only a few days. Before I rest my case, however, I was curious to hear from anyone who has used cheap, but efficient dual mode decoders. I am leaning towards DCC in the future, but plan on at least starting with a DC layout that I can convert to DCC when the funds arrive. How many of you have done, or contemplated doing this yourself?
Thanks again to all of your fantastic comments.
- Matt
BRAKIE wrote:Seeing 75% the locomotives on the layout are Athearn and combine with DCC throttles and decoders being high price I believe that put the nails in the DCC coffin more then anything..
The "high price" of decoders used to be true, but with very nice fleet decoders going for $12 each these days, that concern doesn't apply as much any more.
If someone has say 20 locos, for the price of one nice sound loco they can equip their entire loco fleet with some very nice decoders.
If you want to know where you can get these prices, see this link. As to the specific decoder I'm thinking of, look for the NCE D13SRJ.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Joe,I have never seen decoders for $12.00 each.
Heres some prices lists of the SUPERIOR brands of DCC decoders and the brands I would recommand to my fellow club members...
Tonys
Digi Trax
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/digitrax_decs_med.htm
Lenz
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/lenz_decs.htm
NCE
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/nce_dec_medium.htm
Here Tonys brand.
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/tteexclusive_decs.htm
BRAKIE wrote:Joe,I have never seen decoders for $12.00 each.
Brakie:
You just don't know where to look ...
Here's a link to my list of where to get great DCC prices, including a link to ...
D13SRJ 4-Pack HO Scale Mobile Decoder
MSRP: $74.95 Our Price: $50.98
$50.98 divided by 4 is $12.75 ... or even better yet:
D13SRJ 10-Pack HO Scale Mobile Decoder
$119.95 divided by 10 is $11.99, or $12.00 depending on which way you round.
Like I said, $12 each in quantity. And they're great decoders as well, practically a steal if you ask me.
Ah Ha! I see buy by the bulk pack and get the decoders at $12.00.I see we are both correct depending on how one wishes to buy decoders.IF the membership ever voted in DCC I would only want to suggest the better brands of decoders like Digi Trax,Lenz and NCE.Personally I would recommend Digi Trax because that what I was using.
As far as sound we will see how that fairs as more DC sound equipped locos come on line..After all the majority of the membership works in noisy occupations and they may not want sound equipped locos..
I'm scratching my head over the sound side of this discussion.
The original poster seemed to express surprise that a DC engine had good sound, but since several of our club (which is DC) members have nice sound equiped engines, it's no surprise to me. Sound quality is a seprate issue from control method.
My impression is that DCC decoders can address many more separate and distinct sounds with function keys, but DC boards are more limited in variety. Is that correct?
I'm DCC, but in N scale, so no sound for me yet unless the quality improves.
Mike Tennent
Mike,Heres what Atlas has to say about their Quantum Engineer Controller.I copied and paste their ad.
The New Quantum EngineerTM Controller was created to allow DC users of Atlas Master Gold Series locomotives to take control of all the QSI® Quantum SystemTM sound features that were previously available only to users with DCC-equipped layouts. Now, in addition to the horn and bell sounds, users will be able to access different engine settings and effects such as number lights, flanges, dynamic brakes, coupler sounds, blower/fans, reverse lights and much, much more.
In addition to these sound and lighting features, DC users are also able to access other advanced features such as programming options, locomotive braking, locomotive shut-down and start-up procedures, verbal scale speed readout and more!
Setup is easy, as the Quantum EngineerTM Controller is simply wired in between a standard DC power pack and the track. No other special equipment or wiring is required.
Note: The Quantum Engineer Controllers are designed to operate locomotives that have QARC (Quantum Analog Remote Control) technology. Except for simple horn and bell operations, the Quantum Engineer Control is not suitable for older Quantum-equipped engines that do not have QARC technology included.
The Quantum Engineer will only operate sound locomotives that include the latest QSI technology. This technology is included in all Atlas, Life-Like/Proto 2000 and Hobbycraft Canada sound-equipped locomotives. The more recent locomotive releases from Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) can also be operated; this includes the PRR K-4, EMD E-series passenger units, EMD SD40-2, C&O T-1, EMD switchers, etc. BLI locomotive releases previous to these, as well as the Lionel Challenger and Turbine will not operate with the Quantum Engineer.