Broken #80 drill bits and other frustrations with Walthers cars

[tstage]

Andy,

Thanks for the response.  Granted it's slower than a drill press or Dremel, I still favor the feel and "feedback" I get from a pin vise.  However, I do respect your expertise and will have to try out your suggestions at some point.

Tom 

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Thanks again, ANDY for your inputs on this topic!

BTW............ May 2007 edition of MR is great!. Jim Hediger's story, "Walthers: Celebrating 75 innovative years" is well done (normal good stuff by Jim) and relates to this topic.  I still have some old HO Walthers cars made from wood / metal kits.

Happy Model Railroading from the Heartland Division of CB&Q !  Garry

[Sperandeo]

Hi Tom,

Of course you're allowed to disagree, but I don't think you can argue with my statement that I can do a better job with the motor tool/speed control combination than I can do with a pin vise. That's a true proposition as far as my abilities are concerned, I promise you, and I offer my experience as a suggestion to those who find they break lots of drill bits with a pin vise.

Another poster mentioned using a drill press. I have a small bench-top drill press and I use it whenever I can. It does a very good job drilling on the sides of carbodies or on flat parts before assembly. But when you have to rotate a passenger carbody through several angles to drill holes perpendicular to curved surfaces, the drill press starts to loose its advantage. Also, my small drill press can't accomodate even a 60-foot HO carbody standing on end, so the hand-held tool is my preferred instrument for drilling holes in the ends.

(Speaking of the drill press, which is a Micro-Lux that I bought from MicroMark, someone on another list doubted my statement that its chuck could hold a bit as small as a no. 80. He had read the specifications, which clearly showed this wouldn't work. That means the joke is on me, because I didn't read the specs. I just chucked up a no. 80 and started drilling.)

So long,

Andy

[loathar]

I wish I could afford a nice drill press with a X,Y vice on it. That would make jobs like this a lot easier.

[Southwest Chief]

Installing grab irons may be a pain, but what I notice right away with the comparison photos to the other makers cars is Walthers got the paint right.  NP green, especially the light green, is a tough color to get right.  But from the photos you posted, the Walthers car looks the most prototypical to me.  Now if they could only improve on the grab iron installation process

[mlehman]

It looks like I'm not the only one who's noticed that the Walthers plastic seems tougher than some others. Is it because it's ABS? Versus regular styrene? I know that the plastic narrowgauge kits I've worked with just don't seem to be that difficult. What do Railline, Grandt and PSC use?

[BRAKIE]

Tom said:Put the damned grabs on BEFORE you package them.  Charge me the extra $5.  I've got better things to do. 

 

Hear! Hear!

[twhite]

The problem for me, and many like me is age and arthritis, which plays havoc when using a pin vise and keeping it steady.  In the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's and 90's, I drilled, broke my share of bits but still got the grabs on the cars.

Now, human fraility is making it very difficult to drill all those holes, and on the last couple of Walthers cars, I just didn't put the grabs on.  My solution for the future?  Won't buy cars/diesels from any company that makes me drill those holes.

That said, I have a nice collection in a bag of all sorts of grabs and handrails for Walthers cars sitting on the work bench.

 

Bob 

 

 

 

I think I'm with you, Pastorbob--I've been building models since 1955--I bit my teeth on those metal Athearn freight car kits with 1,000+ parts, built (and enjoyed building) my share of Ambroid 1 in 5000 wood kits, still have a HUGE collection of wood Silver Streak, so I'm hardly what you'd call an RTR guy. 

So, guys, don't call me lazy or inept because the Walthers ABS is un-cooperative to drill bits.  It's not a matter of craft (I've plenty of that left), it's a matter of sheer frustration, after spending almost $40 and finding out that I've got 600 little pieces of wire to add, yet, and whether I use a low-speed Dremel or a well-aimed drill bit, or cleaning out the little dimples with an X-acto blade, I'm STILL going to be replacing #80's like it's going out of style.  Been there.  Done that.   

And I've DONE my share of Rivarossi and Stewart and all of the other plastic super-detailing some of you've mentioned.  It's easy.  I just turned 10 IHC passenger cars into a pretty good-looking passenger train with new wheels, couplers, details, weight, interiors--the whole shot.  It was enjoyable.  And it runs very well behind my E-6 A-B-B units.  Because the material was easy to work with. 

The Walther's ABS cars are not.  End of my argument.   Put the damned grabs on BEFORE you package them.  Charge me the extra $5.  I've got better things to do. 

Like maybe find another Ambroid to build. 

Tom  

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Well, I have more people to thank for their remarks including gappleg and brakie.  So thanks very much guys.  Many thanks to Andy for his time to comment.

I have 2 CB&Q way cars (cabeese) that I did install grabs.  I had to repair the coupla roof a bit afterwards.  My remaining 4 CB&Q way cars are still new in the boxes. Don't know when I'll get to them.

Andy, I do have two Walthers Budd Santa Fe coaches and the only "grabs" I installed were the handrails next to the doors. My 10-car Walthers Super Chief has none installed.

As for #80 drills and Dremel collets:   I sometimes use a very small piece of wire insulation to get a snug fit.  I've been able to do so without any wobbles of the drill bits.

Happy Model Railroading everybody!

[tstage]

Hi Garry,

My advice with no. 80 drill bits is to use them in a hand held motor tool (or flexible shaft tool) with a speed control. I use an old Dremel with a foot-pedal speed control so I can hold the car in one hand, the tool in the other, and vary the drill speed with my foot. I keep the speed relatively slow so the bit cuts through the plastic instead of melting it. The smallest Dremel collets will hold no. 80s very well, especially if you keep one especially for that size and never use it for larger bits. The advantage of the motor tool is that it turns steadily and puts a lot less stress on the tiny bit than drilling with a hand-held pin vise.

Andy

Andy, 

I guess I could see your point if you were drilling into brass.  (That sure wouldn't be very much fun to hand drill 30-40 grab iron holes into. )

However, and with all due respect, a sharp drill bit in a pin vise will give you better control and "feel" (sensory feedback) for drilling in plastic than drilling with an electric motor like a Dremel - even at low speed.  Course, that depends on how steady your hands are and how well you can drill perpendicular to the surface.

If I did use an electric motor to expedite things, I'd rather use a drill press than a Dremel to drill holes, since that takes the vertical alignment "variance" out of the equation.

I hope I'm allowed to disagree with the "experts"... 

Tom

[SunsetLimited]

I have a big drill press that i use, it can knock out a budd car in 8 or so minutes.

[BRAKIE]

Hi Garry,

My advice with no. 80 drill bits is to use them in a hand held motor tool (or flexible shaft tool) with a speed control. I use an old Dremel with a foot-pedal speed control so I can hold the car in one hand, the tool in the other, and vary the drill speed with my foot. I keep the speed relatively slow so the bit cuts through the plastic instead of melting it. The smallest Dremel collets will hold no. 80s very well, especially if you keep one especially for that size and never use it for larger bits. The advantage of the motor tool is that it turns steadily and puts a lot less stress on the tiny bit than drilling with a hand-held pin vise.

The other technique I recommend is to regard the Walthers drill-starting dimples as locating spots and use a large sewing needle in a pin vise to punch a more precise depression for starting the drill. You'll get a lot less wandering that way, and drill straighter holes, which will also help to reduce breakage. Nothing's worse for no. 80 bits than side pressure.

Last year when I reviewed the Walthers Santa Fe heavyweight chair car for the November issue of MR, I found that more than 80 number 80 holes were required for all the wire details to be added. Using the tools and methods I've just described, I drilled all the holes without breaking a bit.

Good luck,

Andy

 

Hear! Hear! Thats what I been doing on the last few Walthers freight cars..Of course that was after doing things the hard way with a pin vice on 3 Walthers C&O cabooses.

[GAPPLEG]

Andy,

Nice to see you guys pop in now and then, you guys do play with trains too. And have lots of experience with many of the products. Thanks for dropping by.

[Sperandeo]

Hi Garry,

My advice with no. 80 drill bits is to use them in a hand held motor tool (or flexible shaft tool) with a speed control. I use an old Dremel with a foot-pedal speed control so I can hold the car in one hand, the tool in the other, and vary the drill speed with my foot. I keep the speed relatively slow so the bit cuts through the plastic instead of melting it. The smallest Dremel collets will hold no. 80s very well, especially if you keep one especially for that size and never use it for larger bits. The advantage of the motor tool is that it turns steadily and puts a lot less stress on the tiny bit than drilling with a hand-held pin vise.

The other technique I recommend is to regard the Walthers drill-starting dimples as locating spots and use a large sewing needle in a pin vise to punch a more precise depression for starting the drill. You'll get a lot less wandering that way, and drill straighter holes, which will also help to reduce breakage. Nothing's worse for no. 80 bits than side pressure.

Last year when I reviewed the Walthers Santa Fe heavyweight chair car for the November issue of MR, I found that more than 80 number 80 holes were required for all the wire details to be added. Using the tools and methods I've just described, I drilled all the holes without breaking a bit.

Good luck,

Andy

[emdgp92]

I don't like drilling all those holes either. It's not that I *can't* but I just don't like it. One thing I sometimes do, is to take the car apart. For me, it's easier to work on a flat surface. Plus, I can clamp the wall/side/roof down so it doesn't move. Walthers is pretty good about how they put the dimples. On other cars (Athearn, IHC/Rivarossi) I use templates to lay out where the holes go.

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Hello again everybody.  Thanks again for all the good thoughts.  Pastor Bob brought up a point.  We're not getting younger.  As he says, age catches up with arthritis as well as other ailments impacting our abilities.  I would also add that we really don't know how much time we have.  However, time is running out for all of us.  Those who want their own realistic, operating layout need to budget their time wisely.

Regarding my NP coach..........  I repaired the roof mounts.  Simple job.  I used a good quality super glue to gluee the broken tabs back onto those part 17's.  I allowed it to set for 24 hours which is much longer than specified by the glue maker.  Then I could replaced the roof. Now it's okay.

As for the grab irons on the car, the ones on the side of the car are now looking okay. The "L" shaped grabs at one end are still out of position.  I've not bothered with the roof grabs.

The # 80 drills are Walthers brand.  I'll try Micro Mark when I get a chance.

I'm grateful to all who participated in this thread.

[pastorbob]

The problem for me, and many like me is age and arthritis, which plays havoc when using a pin vise and keeping it steady.  In the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's and 90's, I drilled, broke my share of bits but still got the grabs on the cars.

Now, human fraility is making it very difficult to drill all those holes, and on the last couple of Walthers cars, I just didn't put the grabs on.  My solution for the future?  Won't buy cars/diesels from any company that makes me drill those holes.

That said, I have a nice collection in a bag of all sorts of grabs and handrails for Walthers cars sitting on the work bench.

 

Bob 

 

 

[Texas Zepher]

SO if I'm going to take the time to install grab irons, I should consider doing so with Rivarossi, IHC, or Con Cor cars, too. So why pay more for a Walthers car?

Well, having converting tons of Rivarossi, IHC, and a few ConCor there is a lot more to it than just installing grab irons.  The Rivarossi and IHC cars windows are not flush and take major work to get them so.  They need new trucks which often means they need new bolsters.  They need new couplers so they need new coupler mounts, one can't do the couplers until the trucks are done or they will be the wrong height.  They need weight and if one isn't careful it is easy to get it in off sided so the car lists to one side.  If you want to add lighting they need lots of work for that too.  Then there is starting from scratch on the interiors, or buying those cheapo insert ones.  By the time one goes to all that expense of real money and time money it is almost identical to buying a Walthers at full price.  And that is before one begins to install the grab irons on either model.

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

 

Thanks Tom and others for all the good thoughts.  

Alternatively, I could use non-Walthers cars.  The walthers coach (foreground) really looks no better than the Rivarossi car (left-hand GN coach).  Best car is the Rapido car (right-hand GN coach).  The cars in the background (IHC NP coach and Con Cor CB&Q sleeper) could be  upgraded to very nice models.

SO if I'm going to take the time to install grab irons, I should consider doing so with Rivarossi, IHC, or Con Cor cars, too. So why pay more for a Walthers car?

Furthermore, Walthers is the only one of the group where it's a difficult struggle to remove the roof to work inside the car.

[tstage]

Heartland Division CB&Q said

If I spend two or more hours just for grab irons on each car, I'll not have much operating time if any at all.

Garry, I guess my answer would be to just do 3 or 4 at a time, put it down, then go do something else.  Yes, it will take you longer but you won't go bonkers doing it.  And, you'll probably do a better job at it.

Heartland Division CB&Q said

Also, wood was easy to work with back then.  As pointed out below, ABS plastic is a tough material.

Sharp bits will make ALL the difference in the world.  Spend the extra money on good tools - e.g. sharp bits and a good, comfortable pin vise.

Heartland Division CB&Q said

My model railroad time is limited.  If I take time to install details on "ready-to-run" equipment, I take time from working on track, wiring, scenery, etc. 

Re-read first comment. 

I'm working on a laser cut depot kit that I picked up at a train show recently.  Because the way this particular one is constructed, the progress is very slow.  So, I'm learning that it's best to just take my time putting it together.

For instance, when I paint one wall of the structure, it warps.  In order to flatten the piece out, I must sandwich it between 2 pieces of 1 x 3, lay a brick on top, and let it set under the weight for 24 hours while the paint completely dries.  When its done, I paint the other side and do the same thing.  In order to paint all 4 walls and keep them flat, it's taking me over a week to do this.

To paint a wall takes probably all of 10 minutes, at most.  However, since I have a limited amount of 1 x 3, I have to do this one at a time.  That's why it's taking me more than a week to accomplish this part of the assembly.  Am I stuck?  No.  While the wall dries and flattens, I can do other things.

My best advice to you is when doing a tedious job:

1. Take them in small doses - That way you don't burn out and start making mistakes.
   
2. Plan your working session around it - Do something you don't like (drilling #78 or #80 holes for grab irons), then do something you do like (You fill in the blank.)

This will make those not-so-pleasant jobs more enjoyable in the long run.

Tom

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Well, I have installed grab irons and hand rails successfully over the years.  Years back, I made wood cars from LaBelle, Northeastern, and others for my 1900 era layout.  I only needed a few cars for such a layout. I could, therefore, spent lots of time on each car.

Now, I'm modeling a busy railroad in the 1950's and 1960's.  I need much more equipment to do so.  If I spend two or more hours just for grab irons on each car, I'll not have much operating time if any at all.

Also, wood was easy to work with back then.  As pointed out below, ABS plastic is a tough material.

I mentioned "other frustrations" in the subject line.  In particular, it's good to easily remove a roof from a model without breaking tabs inside. I can do that with Rapido cars.

Also for comparson, I have two Kato business cars (CB&Q and NP).  It was easy to open the car and install the Kato lighting kit.  No "part #17' s" broke.  Installation of grab irons and details was time consuming with the Kato cars.  However, all holes were drilled at the factory.  These cars have tiny, fragile grab irons and other details.  I installed each detail without breaking anything. The grab irons are not crooked or bent as with the Walthers car.

My model railroad time is limited.  If I take time to install details on "ready-to-run" equipment, I take time from working on track, wiring, scenery, etc. 

[Midnight Railroader]

Adding grab irons, like any other modeling technique, is one that requires some practice.

I find it funny that so many of you expect models to come with them installed--many of us learned to drill holes using a pin vise years ago, because nothing but brass ever came with pre-installed details. It's also how we added various other detail parts. (And, no, you don't use a motor tool, or you end up with broken bits galore.)

Maybe the folks at Model Railroader are right: they don't publish how-to articles anymore because today's modlers don't want to know "how-to." They want to buy it already done.

[Teditor]

The best thing to do is write to all the manufacturers and ask them to change their tooling so the grab irons and other delicate details are molded solidly as part of the main bodywork.

Rivarossi, Tri-ang and many other early manufacturers used to do it this way, so why go backwards and offer better detailed items that might require a little patient work.

Heck, its much easier to scrape off the unwanted plastic, locate and drill the required holes and then repaint and reletter with a small brush and enamels, this would make it much easier.

A favourite saying of mine is "Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it" - fine details and showcase models have always been a desire of model railroaders, but the influx of fine-ness has overwhelmed the basic model railroader to the point of frustration, some people just want to 'play' trains.

We were also much better off when only one number was available, there was no trouble with missmatches - unless of course the manufacturer did a re-run later on.

If everyone got together and designed and manufactured one 'perfect' model, we wouldn't have all this frustration of actually having to use tools (that are readily available in this modern day I might add!) to correct/modify/improve the incapabilities of all those under-achiever manufacturers like Walthers, Athearn, Atlas, Kato etc to name a few who think they are doing us modellers a service by supplying what they obviously feel are continually better developed models - will they never learn!

I make my own decals, I build kits, I paint models with an air-brush, I like to model and also have R-T-R, I am grateful for any offerings, I drive a Ford, I am an Aussie, I model N Scale North American, I buy #80 drill bits in bulk, I think Grimy Black is 'the' standard railroad colour, surely everyone else is the same.

Teditor. 

 

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Here's the two cars I was talking about.  Walthers is on the right.  Notice the roof.  It no longer fits snugly because I broke 4 of 5 part #17's while installing lighting kit.  Rapido car on the left has a roof that is easily removed without breaking any parts.

Thanks for the advice on the grab irons to those who provided it. Because Walthers cars retail for over $40.00 now, I would think grabs would have been installed already.

I broke first #80 with pin vice and second with Dremel on very low speed.

BTW, I took photo before applying decals.

[loathar]

Understandable Loathar, but are you satisfied with their appearance?

 

 

Yep. Good enough for my layout. I know the Walthers look a lot better. I've just noticed more than a couple of folks complaining about them lately. I would have been bummed out if I spent the extra $$$ to find out I had to drill holes for the grab irons. ( just my preference. Not trying to knock anything here)

[bogp40]

I've done a number of Walthers kits and ready-builts with grab irons to be installed by owner.  I've found that using a #78 bit beats using #80 bits all hollow. 

In addition to not breaking any of them, you wind up with a slightly bigger hole than is really needed.  The neat think about this is that when you apply your CA to the inside of the car, you have time to straighten out any un-level grab irons. 

As I remember, my Pennsy mail-express baggage car required almost 75 of the little dears!  Only one of them would up not being level, and that was because I was in a hurry to finally complete the job and I forgot to check for level.

I was just ready to post the same. C'mon do we need a "Pin Vise 101", what are you guys drilling with? a cordless or rotohammer!

Drilling all those holes can be a PITA, but if your'e not feeling up to it at the moment, or having trouble, walk away. Years ago from detailing Athearn BB and dressing up all those Stewart Fs maybe some of us older gang have more patience and are not spoiled by the RTRs.

I did find that using the larger bit #77 or 78 worked so much better and hardly ever break a bit. Using an Xacto blade as the locating (center punch) you drill a precise hole w/o any walking. The Xacto blade even allows you to redirect the angle to move a hole even 100ths of an inch.

The larger bit not only allows room for the CA, it allows for slight adjustments of the grab if the holes are off a hair.

I don't know what the problems you're having w/ the Walther's cars the grabs are no more difficult to install than drop steps on a BB loco. If you want a real challenge, install the grabs an use the NBW castings (nut, bolt washer) that is drilled and installed just a hair above or below the grab hole.

Most newer models all have the exact drilling locations pre marked by a dimple just next to the NBW. Yes, many times heavy paint may obscure the location or make the bit walk. This is the main reason I started to mark the hole w/ the blade first, locate, touch the mark and a twist of the blade. Go easy, a new blade can snap the ultra fine tip off, then try to drill trough that.

Patience, marking the holes, larger bits, a pin vise, your favorite tweezers and more patience works every time.

[MRRSparky]

I've done a number of Walthers kits and ready-builts with grab irons to be installed by owner.  I've found that using a #78 bit beats using #80 bits all hollow. 

In addition to not breaking any of them, you wind up with a slightly bigger hole than is really needed.  The neat think about this is that when you apply your CA to the inside of the car, you have time to straighten out any un-level grab irons. 

As I remember, my Pennsy mail-express baggage car required almost 75 of the little dears!  Only one of them would up not being level, and that was because I was in a hurry to finally complete the job and I forgot to check for level.

[GMTRacing]

it's true - practice makes perfect.(should we all live long enough). Antonio had the best advice - let the drill cut the hole - you just spin the bit. Even on ABS, HSS bits should work fine if they haven't been dulled trying to drill through your axels. American made bits tend to cut better than the imports (you still can get what you pay for). I also agree a pin vise and hand power is better as it gives you more feel for what the drill bit is actually doing and you can stop and back out if it starts to jam. Cutting can be aided by applying a bit of candle wax to the tip to keep it from seizing in the hole.

   i've never tried this, but i wonder is there a way to heat the metal grabs to melt them into place?   J.R.

[tstage]

Am I correct in understanding that the new Walthers "Gold Series" cars coming with the grab irons already installed on the cars?

Yes, drilling the holes for the grab irons can be a test of patience.  Are you hand drilling the holes or using some sort of electrical motor.  I find that a nice, sharp drill in a pin vise will cut quite nicely into the plastic without too much effort.  The challenge though is making sure that you are drilling the hole perpendicular to the surface.

Also, I thought the grab iron holes were #78s, not #80s?

Tom