While this is a great conversation, I think it is not what Furlow was talking about.
Furlow was looking from the perspective of the newbie.
A newbie is not drawn to the hobby to operate time tables against a fast-clock. They look at layouts and think what it would be like to run a train on a cool layout. Operations and realism are something they evolve into.
What the newbie sees is the fantasy--either his childhood, or in my case, I just wanted to see a small steam engine run through tall trees.
To the newbie, operations are intimidating--they just want to run trains.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: marknewton wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout. I doubt it, judging from the photos that have been published in MR over the years. I hold the same opinion of John Allen's locos and stock on the G&D - very implausible.IT doesn't have to plausible to you, me or anyone else to be a rule that he applies.
marknewton wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout. I doubt it, judging from the photos that have been published in MR over the years. I hold the same opinion of John Allen's locos and stock on the G&D - very implausible.
SpaceMouse wrote: I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout.
I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout.
IT doesn't have to plausible to you, me or anyone else to be a rule that he applies.
Paul3 wrote:Mailman,So far, you haven't posted any experiences, only your opinion. Please tell us exactly how any hobby has been ruined by more realism or greater expectation of realism.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Mailman,So far, you haven't posted any experiences, only your opinion. Please tell us exactly how any hobby has been ruined by more realism or greater expectation of realism.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
You asked for exact examples of "how a hobby. . ."
"To me, using Code 100 is like using Lionel tinplate track." 03-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Surely this one statement did not 'ruin' the hobby, but it chips away at the fraternal aspect of how we as a bunch of guys and gals can enjoy not only the hobby of model railroading but each other. Our inclination to perfection is a good thing. Allowing our prejudices and personal perspectives to cloud our ability to help encourage new people to join in the fun of trains does lend aid to the ruination of the hobby.
With high regard and respect to all,
Joe
Been in the hobby many years, starting in college in the late 50's with a 4 by 8 in HO. Now own a layout, 3 decks, started in the 80's, now pretty much complete. I model ATSF, 1989, in Oklahoma, enjoy being accurate as much as possible, but still have slipped in a connecting freelance short line railroad, I enjoy operating sessions, I enjoy working on scenery, I enjoy just "piddlin around" on the layout. I don't worry so much about what others think, although have been on tours many times and get good reviews.
In short, life is too short, to hard, too frustrating to try to police my hobby to be what Furlow wants, or what Koester wants, or any of the other "great thinkers (in their own mind at least", I just enjoy the hobby. Suggest we all should do the same.
Bob
I was thinking about this over night and I can think of one way realism police could hurt the hobby. In Oscale we have far fewer choices than you guys in HO and N. Plastic steam locomotives are almost completely nonexistent. There are a few different choices when it comes to brass. Some companies are "by the book" prototypical and others are built to run on smaller radius track (nothing is goofier than seeing an Oscale Big Boy on a 36" radius IMO). The choice between these can still be made today. So somebody that does not have room for a 72" radius can still run a Big Boy. If the trend went to all "by the book" models for every company, I could see that some people might have the opinion that realism is killing the hobby.
This is not my oppinion and if I did not have the room for 72" radii on my layout, I would simply switch to HO.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
orsonroy wrote: Mailman wrote:I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.I've heard this complaint uttered before in this hobby (lots of times in fact) and I wonder what hobbies those might be that are being destroyed by the "realism Gestappo." They sure aren't any of the ones that I've been involved in over the decades.RC flying: Nope; gotta have wings and a motor. Can't fly with something freelanced out of twigs and berries.Historical wargaming: Legio XXII with stun guns? Nope; gotta have pilum and gladii.Fantasy wargaming: Nope; if it's not in the official "histories" for the universe in question, you can't bring it into the game. 14th level Paladins CANNOT have Uzis.Historical reenacting: Now THIS is a hobby that will have the MRR "anything goes" crowd go running for the hills. Rivet counters have NOTHING on "stitch Natzi" (yes, it's mispelled, for the sake of the "word natzis on this forum). Heck, everything in my WWII US GI kit with the exception of my underwear is original, and I've been called to account for some of it!Competitive shooting: This hobby makes the reenacting stitch counters look like pansys. Not only is there a "right and wrong" way to do just about everything, but if you DON'T follow the accepted dogma, you might as well not show up to a shoot, 'cause you ain't gonna win ANYTHING. You'll just be plain outshot, even by guys who are nominally worse shots than you; their equipment is just better (but that's what counts)Competitive horse showing: Pick a discipline, and there are strict rules to follow, from your equipment down to what boots you can and can't wear. As with competitive shooting, your gear can mean the difference between winning and not winning (and that can equate to $100K for "two minute's work") So having to deal with the "correctness police" isn't anything new for thos or any hobby. And the funny thing is, all of the other hobbies I've mentioned are GROWING.
Mailman wrote:I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.
I've heard this complaint uttered before in this hobby (lots of times in fact) and I wonder what hobbies those might be that are being destroyed by the "realism Gestappo." They sure aren't any of the ones that I've been involved in over the decades.
RC flying: Nope; gotta have wings and a motor. Can't fly with something freelanced out of twigs and berries.
Historical wargaming: Legio XXII with stun guns? Nope; gotta have pilum and gladii.
Fantasy wargaming: Nope; if it's not in the official "histories" for the universe in question, you can't bring it into the game. 14th level Paladins CANNOT have Uzis.
Historical reenacting: Now THIS is a hobby that will have the MRR "anything goes" crowd go running for the hills. Rivet counters have NOTHING on "stitch Natzi" (yes, it's mispelled, for the sake of the "word natzis on this forum). Heck, everything in my WWII US GI kit with the exception of my underwear is original, and I've been called to account for some of it!
Competitive shooting: This hobby makes the reenacting stitch counters look like pansys. Not only is there a "right and wrong" way to do just about everything, but if you DON'T follow the accepted dogma, you might as well not show up to a shoot, 'cause you ain't gonna win ANYTHING. You'll just be plain outshot, even by guys who are nominally worse shots than you; their equipment is just better (but that's what counts)
Competitive horse showing: Pick a discipline, and there are strict rules to follow, from your equipment down to what boots you can and can't wear. As with competitive shooting, your gear can mean the difference between winning and not winning (and that can equate to $100K for "two minute's work")
So having to deal with the "correctness police" isn't anything new for thos or any hobby. And the funny thing is, all of the other hobbies I've mentioned are GROWING.
Just going by my experience and opinion.
Thanks for sharing yours :)
el-capitan wrote: It's been a while since I did any flight simming (is that a word? or should it be simulatoring?) anyway, When I did I found that they were very customizable, in that you had your choice of ultrarealistic or just having fun. Wether or not that is still the case, I'm not sure but I think in MR there is plenty of room for both.Also, unlike flight sims that can become complicated and teadious, I have never heard anyone say that a train isn't fun because it is too realistic.
It's been a while since I did any flight simming (is that a word? or should it be simulatoring?) anyway, When I did I found that they were very customizable, in that you had your choice of ultrarealistic or just having fun. Wether or not that is still the case, I'm not sure but I think in MR there is plenty of room for both.
Also, unlike flight sims that can become complicated and teadious, I have never heard anyone say that a train isn't fun because it is too realistic.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree in the subject :)
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
I've got nothing to say on this topic, I model pseudo non-standard compliant G scale in a garden 1:1 real world environment where a small bird is 20ft tall.
I don't believe any facet of the hobby is killing any other. In the world of garden RR there is a gentlemen's understanding that whatever YOU do is the right and proper thing. No two railroads can ever be identical and each builder imparts their own philosophy on the final design, and when dealing with real world outside building, what works in Arizona may or may not work in Maine. If you want to count rivets, the by all means do so! If you want escapism in fantasy, then brother help yourself! Nobody is wrong with what they do, so long as they enjoy what they are doing.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Midnight Railroader wrote: Mailman wrote: el-capitan wrote: You are losing me here. All I can picture is a bunch of Nazi soldiers marching two by two into my basement and smashing everything that is missing a rivet.You are going to need to be a tad more obvious with me and give me a real life example of a hobby destroyed by realism police. PC flight sims. Very obvious example, if you're familar with them. Rivet counters undue influence were one of the main causes of them going from, in general, an enjoyable game first, simulation second development format, to a stale simulation first, game second (if at all) development format.I like ultra-realistic flight sims. Nothing's been "ruined" for me.
Mailman wrote: el-capitan wrote: You are losing me here. All I can picture is a bunch of Nazi soldiers marching two by two into my basement and smashing everything that is missing a rivet.You are going to need to be a tad more obvious with me and give me a real life example of a hobby destroyed by realism police. PC flight sims. Very obvious example, if you're familar with them. Rivet counters undue influence were one of the main causes of them going from, in general, an enjoyable game first, simulation second development format, to a stale simulation first, game second (if at all) development format.
el-capitan wrote: You are losing me here. All I can picture is a bunch of Nazi soldiers marching two by two into my basement and smashing everything that is missing a rivet.You are going to need to be a tad more obvious with me and give me a real life example of a hobby destroyed by realism police.
You are losing me here. All I can picture is a bunch of Nazi soldiers marching two by two into my basement and smashing everything that is missing a rivet.
You are going to need to be a tad more obvious with me and give me a real life example of a hobby destroyed by realism police.
PC flight sims. Very obvious example, if you're familar with them.
Rivet counters undue influence were one of the main causes of them going from, in general, an enjoyable game first, simulation second development format, to a stale simulation first, game second (if at all) development format.
I like ultra-realistic flight sims. Nothing's been "ruined" for me.
Glad to hear it :)
If desired, for this genre, feel free to visit the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim usenet newsgroup, and do a search on the topic via google.
I'm sure the many discussions of the topic in this genre over the years are still around there.
el-capitan wrote: Mailman wrote: I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.I will agree that people should do what makes them happy. But me operating a timetable in my basement is not destroying anything. What hobbies has this destroyed?And I will say that "realism police" can be obnoxious and could destroy a MR club. But not an entire hobby.
Mailman wrote: I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.
I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.
I will agree that people should do what makes them happy. But me operating a timetable in my basement is not destroying anything. What hobbies has this destroyed?
And I will say that "realism police" can be obnoxious and could destroy a MR club. But not an entire hobby.
I never said you operating a timetable in your basement destroyed anything :)
And yes, realism police can destroy even MRR, if one or both thing occur:
- their numbers grow dramatically.
- their influence, especially on developers, companies, etc., does the same.
In the examples I've seen, it's usually been the latter. Ironically, while their numbers tend to always be in the minority, it is possible for their influence to be greater than their numbers would justify.
BRAKIE wrote: Mailman said:I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.=======================================================================Perhaps in your small world but,in the real world I am yet to see a hobby killed by "realism police"..Even in slot car racing the crude and ugly cars has given way to highly detailed cars.http://www.digitalstorefronts.com/store/temp6.asp?cartid=3389&ItemNum=C2598
Mailman said:I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police.
=======================================================================
Perhaps in your small world but,in the real world I am yet to see a hobby killed by "realism police"..Even in slot car racing the crude and ugly cars has given way to highly detailed cars.
http://www.digitalstorefronts.com/store/temp6.asp?cartid=3389&ItemNum=C2598
Hmmmmmmmmmm......."my small world"...................interesting comment.
Hope tomorrow is a better day for you than today has obviously been.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I find it a bit amussing that some say they will not deviate from their chosen path of either realism or fantasy. I have seen three car garages full of mainline that support running six trains on seperate (DC) tracks continously with few sidings or any realistic operations potential. This drove me a bit nuts but who was I to comment on the owners choice, he shared it with me and I took a few ideas from the visit. On the other hand I have operated on a busy( realistic timetable) layout and even though the owner loved to see people try to stick to the schedule he also loved to see trains just cruze through the scenery. He had a hidden connector for continous operating. This was never used in a session but I know he liked to use it when alone. Even the baker couplers and strange scenic deviders were almost un-oticable as there was so much to take in. He would simply schedule a few through trains to satisfy those who like longer trains and train watching.
We all have our limits on knowledge and artistic abillity or creativity. We are all at different points in the hobby so keep this in mind when you open your mouth and stick you foot in it.
Its all what you want to make of it. Period.
John
Mailman wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Malcom Furlow to Sam Posey.He goes on to say that the trend towards realism ala Tony Koester, will kill the hobby. That new people are not attracted by schedules and time-tables, they are attracted by scenery.I know I was attracted by scenery. When I saw my first pike I imagined small steam winding through giant redwood trees. I was inspired like so many others by John Allen and his floor to ceiling scenery. It was only after six months to a year into the hobby that I discovered operating. When I see photos of the uber layouts like those by McClellan and Fugate, I don't think, I'd love to operate on that layout. I see the scenery and imagine my favorite engine running through their countryside. I know I would like to participate in one of their ops sessions. But that is not my first impression. Now back to that accuracy thing. All modelers have an artistic muse or we would not be creating these mini-universes--although some modelers will never admit it even when faced with a grizzly death. If you look at MR from an artistic stand point where our pikes become 3d representations of the world as we would like it to be--mine a return to yester-year where a mans word was bond, you lived with integrity, you created the world from your sweat and ingenuity. Others try to recreate the innocence of their childhood, while others create an ordered world as a relief from the chaos of daily life. When you look at it from that perspective Furlow is right. Why do we confine ourselves to "reality" and "accuracy" when what we are creating is a fantasy anyway. 'Why not let out the stops and really express the "reality" we want our railroads to be. If we suppress our drive to create our universe by clinging to accuracy and "reality" does it not become a cage that traps us in the world we are attempting to escape from and at the same time denies the very urge that drives us to model in the first place? I agree completely. I've seen other hobbies completely destroyed by self-appointed realism police. Two things I always keep in mind: - its a hobby. If it isn't fun, it isn't a hobby. It's a chore.- no matter what anyone does or says, it's still a model railroad, not the real thing. For me, those two principles keep the right perspective on things :)
SpaceMouse wrote: Malcom Furlow to Sam Posey.He goes on to say that the trend towards realism ala Tony Koester, will kill the hobby. That new people are not attracted by schedules and time-tables, they are attracted by scenery.I know I was attracted by scenery. When I saw my first pike I imagined small steam winding through giant redwood trees. I was inspired like so many others by John Allen and his floor to ceiling scenery. It was only after six months to a year into the hobby that I discovered operating. When I see photos of the uber layouts like those by McClellan and Fugate, I don't think, I'd love to operate on that layout. I see the scenery and imagine my favorite engine running through their countryside. I know I would like to participate in one of their ops sessions. But that is not my first impression. Now back to that accuracy thing. All modelers have an artistic muse or we would not be creating these mini-universes--although some modelers will never admit it even when faced with a grizzly death. If you look at MR from an artistic stand point where our pikes become 3d representations of the world as we would like it to be--mine a return to yester-year where a mans word was bond, you lived with integrity, you created the world from your sweat and ingenuity. Others try to recreate the innocence of their childhood, while others create an ordered world as a relief from the chaos of daily life. When you look at it from that perspective Furlow is right. Why do we confine ourselves to "reality" and "accuracy" when what we are creating is a fantasy anyway. 'Why not let out the stops and really express the "reality" we want our railroads to be. If we suppress our drive to create our universe by clinging to accuracy and "reality" does it not become a cage that traps us in the world we are attempting to escape from and at the same time denies the very urge that drives us to model in the first place?
Malcom Furlow to Sam Posey.
He goes on to say that the trend towards realism ala Tony Koester, will kill the hobby. That new people are not attracted by schedules and time-tables, they are attracted by scenery.
I know I was attracted by scenery. When I saw my first pike I imagined small steam winding through giant redwood trees. I was inspired like so many others by John Allen and his floor to ceiling scenery. It was only after six months to a year into the hobby that I discovered operating.
When I see photos of the uber layouts like those by McClellan and Fugate, I don't think, I'd love to operate on that layout. I see the scenery and imagine my favorite engine running through their countryside. I know I would like to participate in one of their ops sessions. But that is not my first impression.
Now back to that accuracy thing. All modelers have an artistic muse or we would not be creating these mini-universes--although some modelers will never admit it even when faced with a grizzly death. If you look at MR from an artistic stand point where our pikes become 3d representations of the world as we would like it to be--mine a return to yester-year where a mans word was bond, you lived with integrity, you created the world from your sweat and ingenuity. Others try to recreate the innocence of their childhood, while others create an ordered world as a relief from the chaos of daily life.
When you look at it from that perspective Furlow is right. Why do we confine ourselves to "reality" and "accuracy" when what we are creating is a fantasy anyway. 'Why not let out the stops and really express the "reality" we want our railroads to be.
If we suppress our drive to create our universe by clinging to accuracy and "reality" does it not become a cage that traps us in the world we are attempting to escape from and at the same time denies the very urge that drives us to model in the first place?
Two things I always keep in mind:
- its a hobby. If it isn't fun, it isn't a hobby. It's a chore.
- no matter what anyone does or says, it's still a model railroad, not the real thing.
For me, those two principles keep the right perspective on things :)
I agree 110%. Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable pasttimes. When they turn into frustrating pasttimes, it's just like having to report to a job you can't stand.
Our railroads are still and always have been models whether they are accurate down to the last quark or completely freelanced caricatures.
The only person you have to please is yourself. If you aren't enjoying what you're doing, be it super accurate prototypical modeling, freelance, Lionel, or Thomas, there's something wrong with your hobby.
marknewton wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout. I doubt it, judging from the photos that have been published in MR over the years. I hold the same opinion of John Allen's locos and stock on the G&D - very implausible.
SpaceMouse wrote:I would venture to say that Furlow has very strict rules about the locos that would be acceptable on his layout.
Easy, guys, you are describing MY layout, ouch! Implausible would be kind when talking about my layout. Fun would be kinder! To me, Model Railroading is about filling a need or void, why else would we spend the time and money?
Cheers!
Don Gibson wrote:Chip:WHEN does a 'Fetish' become a "Crutch"?
Chip:
WHEN does a 'Fetish' become a "Crutch"?
Don,
Fetish, preoccupation, engrossed, lost in the trees, anal, obsessed with minor details, OCPD, and obsession are all good words to describe a model railroader! I think I have at lease a little of each of these traits.
A Crutch implies coping, supporting and reliance all words that describe some of my needs from time to time.
The neat thing about model railroading is the absolute diversity of interests and facets. The supreme systems integration project.
Neat thread.
Dave Vollmer wrote: That's clever... but not exactly how probabilistic forecastiong works. Unfortunately, it's hard to verify a probabilistic forecast. You can say 30% chance of showers, but it either rains, or it doesn't! Verification is actually 100% or 0%.
That's clever... but not exactly how probabilistic forecastiong works. Unfortunately, it's hard to verify a probabilistic forecast. You can say 30% chance of showers, but it either rains, or it doesn't! Verification is actually 100% or 0%.
I was actually referring to the TV new's practice of making a storm seem worse and sensationalizing it to increase viewing audience.
SpaceMouse wrote: Dave,OT: I've worked out a mathematical equation regarding weather prediction I'd like to run past you.If you take a snow forecast you divide the lower number of the accumulation by two and you have a 50% chance of getting that much snow. For instance if the green-screener says to expect 4-8" of snow, you have a 50% chance of getting 2".PS--I can't think of a more difficult set of numbers to crunch than what you do. Talk about an intellectual pursuit.
Dave,
OT: I've worked out a mathematical equation regarding weather prediction I'd like to run past you.
If you take a snow forecast you divide the lower number of the accumulation by two and you have a 50% chance of getting that much snow.
For instance if the green-screener says to expect 4-8" of snow, you have a 50% chance of getting 2".
PS--I can't think of a more difficult set of numbers to crunch than what you do. Talk about an intellectual pursuit.
Snowfall forecasts are particularly vexing. I learned forecasting at Penn State in the early 90's, back when we had those heavy snow winters. The trouble is that even if you can forecast the liquid eqivalent properly, there are so many different types of snow (plates, rods, dendrites) etc., that the same liquid content can give you on the order of a tenfold difference in depth. Humidity and temperature as well as cloud updraft speeds, etc., combine to mean that one inch of liquid equivalent can range from 2-3 inches to a foot of snow.
Now my research for the Air Force is on the interactions of cross-jet circulations and waves formed by mountainous terrain that can combine to cause stratospheric turbulence (i.e., where the Air Force is flying). In particular, the right superposition of the subtropical and polar jet flows can combine to form an unstable layer which can allow mountain-induced waves to propagate upward and break just above the tropopause. I'm dumbing it down a bit, though.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.