Ho-hum.
It is amazing how some threads seem to have a life of their own, particularly when the subjects centers around personal views as in "what's your favorite color" and "my favorite color is better than your favorite color."
Mark
Tilt, Foul, Penalty box!
Mark, How could you? You are talking about model railroading here. Clear, plain, unabashed train talk of this nature is not the intention of this thread!
Great post!
Best and warmest to all!
Joe
marknewton wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Mark, I would not have thought of you as an elitist,Well, I don't either, but on thse forums, and elswhere, my philosophy of modelling does seem to polarise people's views.but I certainly would put you on the far right of the fantasy-accuracy scale. What I have seen of your work is superb.Thanks for the compliment, Chip. The funny thing is, among my modelling mates I'm the one who has the most catching up to do in terms of modelling quality.But although, I can appreciate it, it is not my style. In fact, I'm having trouble imaging how you can run trains on it. What I've built is a typical British-style terminus to fiddle-yard layout. They are popular in the UK as they don't require a huge amount of space at home. They can also be made portable to take to exhibitions, like mine is. The fiddle yard is the unsceniced staging part of the layout, feeding trains in timetable sequence into and out of the terminus. The operating scheme replicates the job of the shunter at the terminus, dividing and amalgamating multiple unit trains, and co-ordinating arrivals and departures.In it's simplest form the layout is just the two modules. But when I go to exhibitions with it there is a third module, which features a bulk grain terminal and JNR interchange. I'm considering a fourth, which would be purely scenic, featuring a typical Japanese deck girder bridge.Cheers,Mark.
SpaceMouse wrote:Mark, I would not have thought of you as an elitist,
Mark, I would not have thought of you as an elitist,
but I certainly would put you on the far right of the fantasy-accuracy scale. What I have seen of your work is superb.
But although, I can appreciate it, it is not my style. In fact, I'm having trouble imaging how you can run trains on it.
Ah the roots
That would be way too much sheradized steel super 4 track mounted on a green painted train table made by my father where Davy Crockett hauled a train load GWR clerestory coaches with a caboose bringing up the rear, the crack train was the midnight mail hauled by a Princess shame no mail coaches but it had every other coach I owned.
freight trains where an equally eclectic mix
Scenery consisted of a large station a way side halt, signal box, loco shed, goods shed, brick bridge and a plastic tunnel oh! and a level crossing a few signals and telegraph poles and other accessories all made by the manufacturer of the trains I had.
Nope don't see any railway modeling there
I did not get serious about it untill quite a long time after that even then dont take it to seriously
regards John
BRAKIE wrote:The very basic is simple..Go back to your modeling roots and think how you laid track on your first layout after you got your train set
The very basic is simple..Go back to your modeling roots and think how you laid track on your first layout after you got your train set
Remember how you added a few switches,few more cars and then added buildings? THOSE ARE THE BASICS.
Any kid can build a simple layout and doesn't need books,forums or experts to muddle his hobby fun.
ho doctor wrote: Okay already. I admit it. It's all my fault. I personally ruined the hobby. Stop blaming each other. To quote another mrr, "There is no right or wrong. It's my railroad, They're my rules!!"
Okay already. I admit it. It's all my fault. I personally ruined the hobby. Stop blaming each other.
To quote another mrr, "There is no right or wrong. It's my railroad, They're my rules!!"
OK, it is your fault. We will now blame you!
And you are wrong, there are many rules, way many of them. The only correct way to Model railroad is in N scale, with Digitraxx, Kato unitrack, pink foam, dry wall mud, and with Atlas or Kato Diesel locomotives. All other forms of model railroading are renegade.
Just kidding, you can also use blue foam east of the Mississippi and south of Tennessee.
Peace to those who seek it!
LOST & CONFUSED, SOMEWHERE IN ONEIDA, WI.
http://www.fnbchisholm.com/mining/
model railroader did an article on Francis Lee Jaques' layout.
He was a museum diorama maker, pretty much used materials that were handy and built his layout as such. His concept was not to accuractely portray details, but to get the form, the idea down. His locomotives you would expect to be like your heavy N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2, but looking at them you would think this steamer was a heavy ruggeg coal hauler when in fact it was a simple 2-4-4-2. Lets just say you mighta kitbashed a y6b to this, it looked this good and fooled you.
He used this concept up and down his layout and his layout looked so real you'd swear you were getting the fridgies looking at his snow laden mountains. Its just that good.
And yet it isnt correctly detailed, its detailed for effect.
I have the article. cant find anything on the web tho or much.
marknewton wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Food for thought.From my observations and reading replies on various forums I have came to this conclusion.Most modelers seems to have forgotten two things as they grow in "experience".A.The very simple basics of the hobbyBut what are these "basics" everyone keeps referring to? As I mentioned earlier, no-one has defined what they mean by a "newbie". The "basics" would differ from one person to the next, depending on their existing knowledge, experience and skills.
BRAKIE wrote: Food for thought.From my observations and reading replies on various forums I have came to this conclusion.Most modelers seems to have forgotten two things as they grow in "experience".A.The very simple basics of the hobby
Food for thought.
From my observations and reading replies on various forums I have came to this conclusion.
Most modelers seems to have forgotten two things as they grow in "experience".
A.The very simple basics of the hobby
Well,If I need to answer that question then indeed you have forgotten your very basics of modeling..
The very basic is simple..Go back to your modeling roots and think how you laid track on your first layout after you got your train set..Remember how you added a few switches,few more cars and then added buildings? THOSE ARE THE BASICS.Any kid can build a simple layout and doesn't need books,forums or experts to muddle his hobby fun.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
marknewton wrote:With the best will in the world, some of the questions posed on this forum are beyond me. When people ask how big should their layout be, what scale they should model in, or what diesel they should buy, I haven't got a clue. Those sorts of questions lead me to think that the person asking them is a bit lazy, and expects far too much of other modellers on the forum.
Mark,
I would have to agree with you for the most part. Some of the folks who post questions like that want others to do the thinking for them. That's where I turn the table around and ask them some general, basic questions in order to draw the particulars out of them, to help them narrow the field a bit.
For example:
Once I get a better handle on where they are at, I can then, maybe, offer them some assistance. Sometimes you have to "dig" a little in order to help someone else out. And, yes, that takes some effort on our part.
Mark, you could also even share what books you found that were helpful for you, when you were just starting out in MRRing. Or, where you went to learn about the prototype - keeping in mind where the person's understanding, whom you are helping, is at.
Perhaps... But then, I've seen too many instances here and on other forums where a person sharing their knowledge is called a rivet counter, or accused of being elitist. So at time I feel a reluctance to contribute to some threads.
I assume you've been accused of the above and, therefore, are reluctant for that reason?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Mark, I would not have thought of you as an elitist, but I certainly would put you on the far right of the fantasy-accuracy scale. What I have see of your work is superb. But although, I can appreciate it, it is not my style. In fact, I'm having trouble imaging how you can run trains on it.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
tstage wrote:Mark,As much as I appreciate your candidness in your response, I do find the idea of not wanting to help others here on the forum (newbies, in particular) with your years of experience and discoveries foreign to my thinking. Do you remember the types of questions you had when you first started out in the hobby. Where did you get your answers from? Did someone teach you, or did you just dive right in and try and figure things out on your own?
As much as I appreciate your candidness in your response, I do find the idea of not wanting to help others here on the forum (newbies, in particular) with your years of experience and discoveries foreign to my thinking. Do you remember the types of questions you had when you first started out in the hobby. Where did you get your answers from? Did someone teach you, or did you just dive right in and try and figure things out on your own?
I don't think you have to know "how to go about teaching" someone. Nor do you need to take someone under your wings as an apprentice. Just share your experiences and the things that you've learned and picked over time with the folks who are asking questions.
I don't say the above to be critical. By all means, it is your choice. However, it seems a waste to me not to share all the wealth of knowledge that you've acquired over the years that could be beneficial both to someone just starting out, or someone whose even been in the hobby for years.
SpaceMouse wrote: John Busby wrote: If we gave 10 modellers exactly the same trains and materials we would get 10 versions of the correct way to build a model railway and all 10 would want to change something or possibly throw the trains and go and get different ones all so they could build a proper model railway Actually we would 7 model railroads and 3 idiot layouts. Only there would be disagreement over which three were the idiots.
John Busby wrote: If we gave 10 modellers exactly the same trains and materials we would get 10 versions of the correct way to build a model railway and all 10 would want to change something or possibly throw the trains and go and get different ones all so they could build a proper model railway
If we gave 10 modellers exactly the same trains and materials we would get 10 versions of the correct way to build a model railway and all 10 would want to change something or possibly throw the trains and go and get different ones all so they could build a proper model railway
Actually we would 7 model railroads and 3 idiot layouts. Only there would be disagreement over which three were the idiots.
Hi SpaceMouse
Probably true
And just how do you tell the difference between a proper Model Railway and a very well done train set ( assume two rail track, quality trains and workmanship )
BRAKIE wrote:Food for thought.From my observations and reading replies on various forums I have came to this conclusion.Most modelers seems to have forgotten two things as they grow in "experience".A.The very simple basics of the hobby
If a newbie considers themselves totaly helpless, cant or wont educate themselves, and is just looking for someone to hold their hand and tell them what to do, Kalmbach, Woodland Scenics and Atlas publish several books that will tell you what to do, how to do it, and what to buy to build a reasonable starter layout. These books in my experience are very well written, clearly explain the processes and takes all the guesswork and questions out of the equation from benchwork to operations, the newbie learns as he goes, and in the end might be ready to add to it on thier own or just happy to let them run roundy-round.
The best advantage to this is that the inevitable bombardment of conflicting advice and opinions one gets online is eliminated.
Have fun with your trains
Yes, that is true; "do what makes you happy" doesn't answer a question. But if you look at what I post, I put my opinion or experience out on the line; I'll give factual information for consideration and let it roll from there. Often times I will give a second option as well. THEN I will follow with the "it's your railroad blah blah blah". I can only give information; I can't make a decision for you, that is a personal choice that only the end user can make. I won't ever say "if you don't use set up XYZ then you are a loser", that is wrong in every way and will surely drive people away from the hobby.
Ok, my opinion on code 100 vs 83? If you already have lots of 100 then use it, no problems at all. If you are starting out with nothing, then go with 83 because it has a far better balanced look and feel. Soon everything will be going to 83 anyway, so invest you money in the future. G scale brass vs. stainless vs aluminum track? Go with brass, more options and cheaper, yet both stainless and aluminum will serve you well. Power supply? Use what you have if you are using something already, if you are buying new then go with DCC (also the wave of the future all scales), in G scale start with at least 10 amps and a wireless controller - upgrade to wireless DCC (all scales) if you feel the need to later on. Bachmann vs. LGB or Atlas or ?, Anything can be made to run well, are you a builder or a runner? The final answer will depend on that. Rivet counting vs. whimsy? Whimsy, because even the best of the accurate scale models is still a model and not the real thing. It's all pretend anyway. But if you want to pretend to count rivets, then I support you 100%.
The problem today, and it's a good problem, is that there are so many more quality choices and options on the market today than there was when I started out in the late ‘70s. It's almost information overload. Back then we ran brass track with Tyco or Atlas locos with horn-hook couplers using simple block wiring on plaster scenery, and you know what? WE LOVED IT! In fact, we loved it so much that some of us went on to create the wonderful toys we have today, things we wished we had back then, things we only dreamed about.
A newbie can be easily overwhelmed by the choices. I try to keep it simple enough for them to get their feet wet, then later on they can advance into whatever style of railroading makes them happy. Does anybody here think Garden Railroading is expensive? Let's see a show of digital hands! Yup, just as I thought, every pixel went up. What would you say if I told you that you could get started in G scale for under $200? You can, and you can do it well. I did 6 years ago, and I still have and use every one of my $200 items every day. What if I would have spent 20K and found out I don't like live steam or stainless track? I spent $200 and found that I did. Now I have invested my money wisely, into the areas that interest me.
I appreciate all the information and advice I got when I started out, some I used, most I didn't. It's like a buffet in here, eat you fill of what you can, then leave the rest for somebody else.
Accuracy ruining the hobby? Not a chance! Improving it, yes without a doubt. We can only benefit from better quality and better models. Do rivet counters annoy me because I have a free style, do-as-you-may philosophy on my railroad? Certainly not! I encourage the practice! Do nit pickers that come over to my house and tear into my railroad because the town is built from bird houses and I have a European style viaduct? Oh yes, now we have a problem, but let me show you my gun and knife collection......
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Alot of the arguments on the forums have to do with how we phrase things. I've seen the code 100 rail debate/argument/criticism mentioned a few times. Saying "code 100 is like tinplate" can be taken offensively while if you change that to "I think that code 83 looks more prototypical than code 100" it seems less offensive while still conveying the same point. Personally I use code 148 but that's in oscale so what would that be in HO, code 74? So anybody using code 83 in HO...... I won't finish that thought.
The best thing about forums is that anything can be posted instantaneously. The worst thing about forums is that anything can be posted instantaneously. If we were submitting letters to the editor of MR to be published in the mag, we would probably do a little more editing before sending it off. This is rarely the case in forums, especially if it is an emotional debate. Most of us are probably guilty of this at one time or another. Recently I posted criticising somebody for posting his club's open house dates and times because I viewed it as advertising. I later appologized, but my point is that letter would have never gone to the editor of MR.
I feel as though the idea of "its your railroad, do whatever makes you happy" gets way overused on this forum. Yes, it's true and everyone should realize that, but it seems like any time a question comes up on the "best" way to do something, ultimately somebody chimes in with the obligatory "its your railroad, do whatever makes you happy". We all already know this, even the new guy. Some people are just looking for oppinions and past experience. This response just seems like the PC answer. Like you need to respond but you don't want to step on anybody's toes by saying "I like code 100 rail".
So we have 2 ends of the spectrum: People who want to shove their oppinions down others throats and those that don't want to express their oppinion because somebody may be offended. In order to get the most value out of this forum I think we all need to fall somewhere in the middle. I want to hear oppinions and past experiences without having them shoved down my throat. It helps me in my modeling to have ideas that I would not have thought of on my own.
Just please stop saying "its your railroad, do whatever makes you happy". If it wasn't making me happy I wouldn't be here talking to you fine folks.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Chip,We can fully agree here.. These days there are a select few that believes their way is the only way to model,run trains,build layouts etc,etc,etc...However,I notice this scenario more on forums that in real life.Then we have more modelers that claim to be "super modelers" but,we never see a picture of their "110% perfect" models.Of course there are super modelers that share pictures.
how true!
Hi guys
There is only one way to build a model railway the trouble is no one can tell me what it is.
For the plain simple reason it is my way.
That I think covers every thing except which of the Millions and Millions of versions of my way has your name on it.
If we gave 10 modellers exactly the same trains and materials we would get 10 versions of the correct way to build a model railway and all 10 would want to change something or possibly throw the trains and go and get different ones all so they could build a proper model railway my way
Like the song says I did it my way.
Have Fun that's all that matters
We have the only hobby that is both collective and highly individual at the same time
and
B.They seem to complicate the simple and overstate the obvious.
joe-daddy wrote:I suppose taken to some exteme, your right, however, the point Chip is making, and I agree with him, is that the advice to the Newb would be better received if it was tempered more from his/her perspective than that of a very narrowly focused expert who only models May 13, 1948 in Kansas City.
I suppose taken to some exteme, your right, however, the point Chip is making, and I agree with him, is that the advice to the Newb would be better received if it was tempered more from his/her perspective than that of a very narrowly focused expert who only models May 13, 1948 in Kansas City.
tangerine-jack wrote:[I must say that I do understand that forcing uber-correctness on a newb can, and has been, counterproductive to keeping somebody in the hobby. This happens all the time in garden scale, a newb buys a B'mann starter set, somebody chimes in about LGB and DCC wireless, next thing you know the newb think he (or she) needs 20K in gizmos to break into the hobby. Simply not true! I say let the newb start with whatever they have now, then as they learn what they really want, THEN they can decide what style of railroading they want to do. Run what you brung, learn what you can, then grow naturally as your abilities and desires dictate. That is what we need to encourage newbs to do!Mind if I bring some chip and dip to go with the popcorn?
I must say that I do understand that forcing uber-correctness on a newb can, and has been, counterproductive to keeping somebody in the hobby. This happens all the time in garden scale, a newb buys a B'mann starter set, somebody chimes in about LGB and DCC wireless, next thing you know the newb think he (or she) needs 20K in gizmos to break into the hobby. Simply not true! I say let the newb start with whatever they have now, then as they learn what they really want, THEN they can decide what style of railroading they want to do. Run what you brung, learn what you can, then grow naturally as your abilities and desires dictate. That is what we need to encourage newbs to do!
Mind if I bring some chip and dip to go with the popcorn?
Jack,
Your logical and reasonable, but way shy of enough rivits and only 70% of the right amount of ties to qualify for participation in this debate. Just kidding!
One think we can be sure of, the Newb will quickly tire of this drivel and look elsewhere for a straightforward answer to his question.
Peace to those who seek,
tstage wrote: joe-daddy wrote:I don't imagine a hobby that has been RUINED by the authenticity police, but that was not the intent of this thread IMHO. It is how the rivit counters with their rail height micrometers are not doing the hobby a good deed, when they blast away at Newb's like we frequently see.So, Joe, do you have any recent examples where this has happened to a newbie on the forum? I rarely, if ever, see this happen here. Or, are you talking out in the real world? Tom
joe-daddy wrote:I don't imagine a hobby that has been RUINED by the authenticity police, but that was not the intent of this thread IMHO. It is how the rivit counters with their rail height micrometers are not doing the hobby a good deed, when they blast away at Newb's like we frequently see.
So, Joe, do you have any recent examples where this has happened to a newbie on the forum? I rarely, if ever, see this happen here. Or, are you talking out in the real world?
Tom,
I already gave the example, a direct quote, this past week here on Trains.com, but lets be clear, by no means is it only an issue here, it is everywhere, trainboard, yahoo forums.
I particularly like the you better use 12 gauge wire to drive your switch machines too, it prevents voltage drop.
IRONROOSTER wrote: Ah good, the rivet counter battle is joined. I love this argument, everyone resolutely refuses to understand anyone else's definition of a "rivet counter". So we get page after page of wonderful cross purpose argument. Can the "Who is a real model railroader" argument be far behind? Where is my popcorn? IrreverentlyPaul
Ah good, the rivet counter battle is joined. I love this argument, everyone resolutely refuses to understand anyone else's definition of a "rivet counter". So we get page after page of wonderful cross purpose argument.
Can the "Who is a real model railroader" argument be far behind?
Where is my popcorn?
Irreverently
Paul
All right, cool! I too love this argument! What is more realistic, a miniature HO loco with each and every detail of the original reproduced in exact scale down in a basement or attic, or my 10ft stand off scale garden railroad that actually runs OUTSIDE like real trains? Both are equally correct! That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
IRONROOSTER wrote: Can the "Who is a real model railroader" argument be far behind? Where is my popcorn?
I'm waiting for the "MR layouts are works of art and thus can only be judged by one's emotional response, not the number of rivets." argument.
Mind if I grab some of that popcorn. I bought a 6pack on my way over if you want one. We may be here for a while."