James, Brisbane Australia
Modelling AT&SF in the 90s
Adelie wrote:I piped up in the Club Club, largely because it is a good shot in the ribs at the other "clubs." At least I hope that was it's intent
I've noticed that serious, thought provoking threads seldom last long. Threads that ask as simple question that can be answered in a few posts get repeated over and over again because they age off quickly and everyone is too lazy to use the search engine. Threads for trite chatting, or things that lend themselves to passionate opinions that can be restated and restated and restated and restated post after post are the ones that seem to last forever.
What ruins things like the weekend photo fun is people who insist on quoting the photos. So the same photo ends up being repeated over and over and over again. Once there was a photo thread where the rule was no high-fives, atta boys, or other comments just enjoy the photos. It quickly proved, once again, people can't follow the simplest directions as it rapidly became filled with "wow" and "nice" type posts.
I like the sound of this Joe.
jfugate wrote:Dream: Prototype info, layout tours, philosophy pieces (the ideal throttle)Plan: Track plan ideas, layout design guidelines, examples of design problem solutions.Build: Room prep, benchwork, trackwork, scenery, bridges, structures.To this I would add a new one: Operate it.Operate: Everything that takes a layout from still life to something that moves: wiring, DCC, locos, rolling stock, car and train movement (car cards, switchlists, just running trains, Timetable and Train Order), signals, layout maintenanceWhat do you think of just having four other areas besides general discussion? If you splinter things up too much, then you make it hard for people to know where to look.
Dream: Prototype info, layout tours, philosophy pieces (the ideal throttle)
Plan: Track plan ideas, layout design guidelines, examples of design problem solutions.
Build: Room prep, benchwork, trackwork, scenery, bridges, structures.
To this I would add a new one: Operate it.
Operate: Everything that takes a layout from still life to something that moves: wiring, DCC, locos, rolling stock, car and train movement (car cards, switchlists, just running trains, Timetable and Train Order), signals, layout maintenance
What do you think of just having four other areas besides general discussion? If you splinter things up too much, then you make it hard for people to know where to look.
Agreed. I think headlined like that it should work very well. So all together you'd have 6 areas including the 70th Anniversary Boxcar section, which is kind of a force unto itself. Which I don't think is too much, Garden has 5 sections and MRR has over 10x as many posts!
Set up like this, I'll bet Operate would be the one that goes over 3 pages/day! Unless you were to add one more: Control and put all electronics, DCC, signaling, etc. in there... I dunno
One of the problems with having more categories is keeping the posts in the right spot. This requires active moderation and at this point it appears that Kalmbach is unwilling or unable to put any further resources into moderating the forum. One person (Bergie bless him) can not do it alone, it needs more bodies.
Some forums I am one have a main administrator/moderator and then several volunteer moderators assigned to specific areas that they are knowledgeable in. I do not know if Kalmbach would want volunteer moderators but it is an option that works on other forums.
cwn3 wrote:I also strongly feel there should be some more division to the MRRing headings. The fact that "General Discussion" goes 3 or more pages deep in a day testifies to this need.I don't think it would be a good idea to separate by scale because it would be too easy to miss some good stuff that's really not scale specific anyway. But a few more categories would be helpful. Maybe add:Electronics & Train Control (From DC to DCC, Signal Systems, Computer Control, Wiring, etc.)Layout Planning & Design (Advice on track planning and various design theory tips & tidbits.)Operation (Prototype operation; from the yard to the mainline and everything in between.)While these might tap Layouts and Layout Building some, I think they would primarily thin the General Discussion category and give the reader a bit more intuition when looking for specific topics. (And maybe keep some more interesting & productive stuff near the top.)
I also strongly feel there should be some more division to the MRRing headings. The fact that "General Discussion" goes 3 or more pages deep in a day testifies to this need.
I don't think it would be a good idea to separate by scale because it would be too easy to miss some good stuff that's really not scale specific anyway. But a few more categories would be helpful. Maybe add:
Electronics & Train Control (From DC to DCC, Signal Systems, Computer Control, Wiring, etc.)
Layout Planning & Design (Advice on track planning and various design theory tips & tidbits.)
Operation (Prototype operation; from the yard to the mainline and everything in between.)
While these might tap Layouts and Layout Building some, I think they would primarily thin the General Discussion category and give the reader a bit more intuition when looking for specific topics. (And maybe keep some more interesting & productive stuff near the top.)
How about something organized around Kalmbach's own: Dream it. Plan it. Build it. ...
I'm thinking:
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
MisterBeasley wrote: AntonioFP45 wrote:Mr. Beasley, Bruce...that was just too funny. I'll use those next time my co-workers get into political debates! They seem to "drown" in sorrow whenever Teddy speaks....Now, let's not get political here. Remember "Roe vs. Wade" is nothing more than the two ways of getting to Teddy Kennedy's car.
AntonioFP45 wrote:Mr. Beasley, Bruce...that was just too funny. I'll use those next time my co-workers get into political debates! They seem to "drown" in sorrow whenever Teddy speaks....
Now, let's not get political here. Remember "Roe vs. Wade" is nothing more than the two ways of getting to Teddy Kennedy's car.
Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!
Do you guys know how strong the temptation to "dive" in on this one is?
Come on, now! I'm only human! I don't want to go off the "deep end"!
-George
"I've done some things in this life that I'm not very proud of. And the things I am proud of are pretty disgusting"
-Moe Syzclak, The Simpsons
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Hello everyone,
While I am finding this thread quite amusing, I'm going to try and address the serious side of it.
I do agree that the general BS threads should be allowed to flourish, as they will. However, IMHO they exist solely for entertainment purposes, nothing more. As Joe mentioned, it will be next to impossible to find anything on these "club" threads, and frankly, who wants to wade through 16 pages of chatter to pick up something useful?
Just a thought...
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
tstage wrote: A couple of months ago I posted a mini-commentary (by the similar name) about the increase in the number of new "splinter groups" that have been "incorporated" here on the forum. While I do understand their purpose, it still concerns me that our forum seems to be gradually breaking up into smaller and smaller fractions and factions of groups. Even the two groups that have started up recently, I've noticed a modicum amount of in-fighting and friction between its "members" over the so-called "infiltraitors" from the other "gang" lurking in on their "meetings". This I find a very disturbing and disheartening trend.Personally, I find wading through an individual thread on a particular topic a lot easier to initially discern and understand than a continuing "group" thread that contains several "sub-topics" going on at the same time. While this doesn't pose much of a problem on shorter group threads (e.g. 2 pages and <), it does become increasingly more difficult to follow the longer the group thread gets and the number of sub-topics breaks down into further sub- sub-topics.(In all fairness, the above can be said for ANY longer thread that is posted here on the forum, since it's not uncommon for tangents to take the conversation in different directions. I'm speaking more specifically about topics that are covered under the larger headings that we already have established.) Perhaps this is just how our forum is ultimately evolving and changing into. If I were a newcomer to the hobby and I stumbled across this forum, I would personally view this trend of collaboration a rather daunting and limiting way to try and learn about something that I think I'm interested in. If you aren't in on the ground floor of the particular group-topic at hand, you have a real job cut out for you, in order to follow all the nuances of the conversation(s). (Let alone, learning all the added terminology and acronyms that we so often rattle off without thinking about it.) This would also likely make me feel as if I were constantly looking "from the outside in" and wonder if I would ever be a part of the conversation or "group". Unlike Part I to this sequel, there is no need to comment to this post. I'm simply expressing my observations and concerns over some unsatisfying signs that I'm beginning to notice - and some that I have noticed on the forum for a while now. Change is inevitable. Trends do come and some go. Perhaps this would be a good time to just take a small breather from things and re-evaluate. Tom
A couple of months ago I posted a mini-commentary (by the similar name) about the increase in the number of new "splinter groups" that have been "incorporated" here on the forum. While I do understand their purpose, it still concerns me that our forum seems to be gradually breaking up into smaller and smaller fractions and factions of groups. Even the two groups that have started up recently, I've noticed a modicum amount of in-fighting and friction between its "members" over the so-called "infiltraitors" from the other "gang" lurking in on their "meetings". This I find a very disturbing and disheartening trend.
Personally, I find wading through an individual thread on a particular topic a lot easier to initially discern and understand than a continuing "group" thread that contains several "sub-topics" going on at the same time. While this doesn't pose much of a problem on shorter group threads (e.g. 2 pages and <), it does become increasingly more difficult to follow the longer the group thread gets and the number of sub-topics breaks down into further sub- sub-topics.
(In all fairness, the above can be said for ANY longer thread that is posted here on the forum, since it's not uncommon for tangents to take the conversation in different directions. I'm speaking more specifically about topics that are covered under the larger headings that we already have established.)
Perhaps this is just how our forum is ultimately evolving and changing into. If I were a newcomer to the hobby and I stumbled across this forum, I would personally view this trend of collaboration a rather daunting and limiting way to try and learn about something that I think I'm interested in. If you aren't in on the ground floor of the particular group-topic at hand, you have a real job cut out for you, in order to follow all the nuances of the conversation(s). (Let alone, learning all the added terminology and acronyms that we so often rattle off without thinking about it.) This would also likely make me feel as if I were constantly looking "from the outside in" and wonder if I would ever be a part of the conversation or "group".
Unlike Part I to this sequel, there is no need to comment to this post. I'm simply expressing my observations and concerns over some unsatisfying signs that I'm beginning to notice - and some that I have noticed on the forum for a while now. Change is inevitable. Trends do come and some go. Perhaps this would be a good time to just take a small breather from things and re-evaluate.
Tom
No, its not the sugar. It's not the rubarb either. Nor the crocus. Cabin fever could explain it. But then this type of thing can happen anytime during any given year. I know!!!!! maybe it's the water!!!! The clear plasticy kind that comes in a bottle!!!!
No, it really is this: These types of forums give people a chance to express their opinions. That's nice. But, the thing is, eveyone thinks their opinion is the right one. And they prefer to gather with those who share their opinions, or at least agree in that direction.
Its only natural selection that we congregate with those who share our interets. Take any group: school, office, college,work, sports team, sports brand new groups at conferences or symposiums, etc. Tell them to divide themselves in groups of ten, and somehow they will manage to magnetate to each other. The ones who have the same "in commons".
The same is here. I do firmly believe, however, that groups should be tagged off, and not part of the general forum.
That is my opinion. All those who agree please step this way.....watch your footing, it can be bumpy as there are ruffles in the rug........light refreshments will be served on hand-painted clay....
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
rayw46 wrote: I do have to agree with you guys on this though. It was fine when there was only the coffee shop but now we have the following "clubs":Elliotts Trackside Diner (est 1-1-07) The 'DC' club DCC Club BEER BARN The "N" Crowd The "Club" Club And then we keep getting threads like "loco wish list" or "what's your favorite rollig stock" or "what's your least favorite rolling stock" or "what's your engine roster" or "whatever you can think of". Smoke, I've figured out how to deal with those specialty threads and, to be nice I'll just call them unproductive threads; I don't open them, which means that I sometimes open the forum, look at the topics that have been posted since the last time I visited, and then close the forum.
I do have to agree with you guys on this though. It was fine when there was only the coffee shop but now we have the following "clubs":
Elliotts Trackside Diner (est 1-1-07)
The 'DC' club
DCC Club
BEER BARN
The "N" Crowd
The "Club" Club
And then we keep getting threads like "loco wish list" or "what's your favorite rollig stock" or "what's your least favorite rolling stock" or "what's your engine roster" or "whatever you can think of".
Smoke, I've figured out how to deal with those specialty threads and, to be nice I'll just call them unproductive threads; I don't open them, which means that I sometimes open the forum, look at the topics that have been posted since the last time I visited, and then close the forum.
I don't open them either, I was just making the point.
-Smoke
One of the leading specialists on online web communities, Amy Jo Kim, says this:
"... in a growing Web community it’s natural forpeople with some initiative and creativity to want toform their own self-defined groups, without muchinvolvement of the community leaders. You shouldwelcome the emergence of these groups, becauseit means that you’ve created an environment wherepeople feel a sense of belonging and ownership."
So if Kalmbach/MR wants their online modeling community to grow and flourish, the emergence of subgroups is exactly the direction they need to accommodate. Unfortunately, a one-thread-does-it-all chronologically-organized forum isn't a great way to build lots of rich content that's easy to access. There are better ways, but it will take some time to get there.
I know Kalmbach/MR is interested in ideas to this end, so this discussion is one way to give them feedback.
I piped up in the Club Club, largely because it is a good shot in the ribs at the other "clubs." At least I hope that was it's intent, I guess you never know anymore.
I think it is more a function of society than the forum. Someone said to me a few weeks ago that they believe there is a lack of critical thinking these days. I've been pondering that since (critical thinking about the lack of critical thinking???). Seems like all too often people are perfectly satisfied to enter into discussions with their mind made up, carefully disregard all the other discussion, voice their view with little or no supporting info, criticize those who don't agree, and declare victory. I guess that means our society has de-evolved to operate line Congress!
Although on a sports forum I frequent there does seem to be good discussion/debate, but that forum is moderated in a somewhat unique manner. They don't intervene often, but when they do it is like hockey linesman - they'll let the combatants duke it out until they are tired then send them both to the penalty box to serve majors.
For sure, I'd like to see the forum topics grouped differently. But that has come up before and been met with deaf ears by those who pay the bills.
My own guidelines to my posts are that I try to imagine them being read by somebody new to the forum, if not the hobby. Will the words help that person get the same bug we all have for this hobby, will it answer their question, or will it only serve to drive them away?
For my other life philosphy's one only need to visit despair.com!
- Mark
I generally stay out of the clubs. I did follow the DC and DCC "clubs" at first to see if they would evolve into specialized technical information exchange threads, but apparently no such luck. I had hoped for more, especially for the DC club, since information and how-tos are becoming much harder to find in the hobby magazines and books.
I've come to see that for the most part, technical information gets shared when a newer model railroader unfamiliar with the search functions asks the familiar questions. There are obvious exceptions, but I think that most of us with a layout or 2 under our belts are pretty set in the methods and techniques we are likely to use in layout construction. A new method or technique has to be demonstrably better than what we are already doing. And if the new way in anyway hints that what we as individuals have been doing is no longer "approved", then we reflexively go to the defensive offense.
So once we have all unloaded as to why our preferred L-girder/cookie cutter/hard shell/DC/flex track/car card methods are so much better than the box frame/foam/foam inclines/foam scenery/DCC/road bed included track/way bills of the other guy, there is little left to discuss other than philosophy.
just my thoughts
Fred W
MAbruce wrote: MisterBeasley wrote: Well, as Teddy himself would say, "I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it." Stop it! You're killing me!Oh, I did I say killing? I meant involuntary manslaughter...
MisterBeasley wrote: Well, as Teddy himself would say, "I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it."
Stop it! You're killing me!
Oh, I did I say killing? I meant involuntary manslaughter...
Mr. Beasley, Bruce...that was just too funny. I'll use those next time my co-workers get into political debates! They seem to "drown" in sorrow whenever Teddy speaks....
Smoke,
Good points expressed. But give it time. More than likely, in a few days or a week the DC Club, DCC Club, and "Club Club" threads will find there way to the back pages.
Space Mouse,
I've missed your posts. Good to see you.
I wonder now if it is the winter months...or what. I remember last year when it seemed like you were getting "blow torched"....( I was too).... I wondered what had you done? I guess it was your turn in the barrel. I try and stay out of it and be positive, but I somehow manage to get sucked in every now and then, especially by younger members that are sometimes passionate about their views. It's ironic since I work with and help kids.
Dave,
Yes, to your statement about those other forums. But don't forget that during 05, the Atlas forum deteriorated to a cornfield meet-flame fest on more than one occasion. At the same time, our forum here was engrossed with a great "how-to-do-it", "step-by-step", and technical threads. NightCrawler and FundyNorthern come to mind.
Forward to today: CMarchand has provided a good deal of technical information regarding locomotive mechanisms,electronics, and DCC So there is still much to be gained here.
Change is inevitable. Members leave, new ones join, some visit every once in a while. So forums will sail in different directions as time moves on. In the process, if the members enjoy, learn, and fellowship in it then it will be viewed as a good place to visit on the web.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Y'know what we're missing? Midweek Photo Fun. All weekend long, we're all putting our energies into Weekend Photo Fun. We're gonna hit a hundred posts one of these weekends. But during the week, we don't have anything like that so we get into trouble. Maybe it's cabin fever, or maybe we're just tired of ballasting, but there's a lot of mischief to be made here.
Also, we don't have any contentions MTH or Internet Trains threads running right now. That used to satisfy our blood-lust, too. No trolls, either.
Well, I see Selector has just posted the weekend's first photo, and it's a beauty.
Tom--
It seems to be a kind of 'generalized' thing, not only on this forum (and I freely admit to being part of the problem, occasionally), but on several other forums to which I belong.
One is Classic Films. A poster will start a topic, say "My all-time favorite Western movie" and by the time six or eight posters have responded, instead of discussing our favorite Western, we're all embroiled in a heated argument over whether or not John Ford treated the Indians fairly in his "Cavalry Epics", when that could very well be a separate thread. But I think that topics will stray and splinter almost anytime you get a fairly large group of people contributing (and as I said, I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else).
Frankly, and as a teacher, I don't mind saying this--our attention spans are often more limited today than they were, say ten or fifteen years ago. I think it's because society as a whole has been moving at a much faster pace. It's much easier to 'break topic' and drift off into something only remotely related to the original discussion, then to treat the original idea with depth and detail. I'm saying this generally, not specifically, because I think that a lot of posters (myself included) would much rather discuss a particular topic in detail, because that's how we all learn from it.
Frankly, I don't know the answer. But I'm sure there IS one.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Compared to a year ago I think we are doing quite well thank you very much.
If I remember there was a war between the pollsters and the poll--haters.
There were people angry about people making useless posts to boost star counts.
There were several troll attacks--some where the board was closed.
There was anger directed at MR for all sorts of reasons.
I even had several people who, for some reason or another, chose to attack me any time I made a post. (I figure they were jealous of my good looks.)
So compared to that, we are sailing smooth.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
ROFLMAO!!!! You two are cracking me up.
Brian
selector wrote: Thanks for noticing, Mr. B. I was wondering if that quote would stir up some discussion. It is a contentious statement, to be sure. If I had had a mouthful of beer when I heard it, you know what would have happened.
Thanks for noticing, Mr. B. I was wondering if that quote would stir up some discussion. It is a contentious statement, to be sure. If I had had a mouthful of beer when I heard it, you know what would have happened.
Do you mean the rhubarb quote or the lottery quote? Both are contentious here in Massachusetts, where Teddy Kennedy opposes taxing stupid people and we are sensitive about our short growing season. Well, as Teddy himself would say, "I'll drive off that bridge when I come to it."
Actually, there are only a few other places to post in the Model Railroader forums. You only have "General Discussion", "70th Anniversary Boxcar", "Layout building", and "Prototype Information".
If there were more choices of places to post - perhaps a forum for each scale or special interest, the General Discussion forum would clear out a bit.
Suggested forums:
General Discussion
O and S Scale
HO Scale
N and Z Scale
Narrow Gauge (all scales)
Layout Construction
Layout Design
Operations
I've left the 70th Anniversary Boxcar forum out, because I feel it should be in a "prototype" grouping. Same with the prototype info for modelers heading.
Just my
selector wrote: Shh....is that rhubarb I hear poking out of the soil? "Lotteries are a tax on stupid people."-Overheard on CBC, 2001
Shh....is that rhubarb I hear poking out of the soil?
"Lotteries are a tax on stupid people."-Overheard on CBC, 2001
No, it's not rhubarb. It's the crocuses here in New England, who had been ready to stick their heads out until they listened to the Weather Channel. Another foot of the white stuff is due.
Actually, we should remember back to the early days of state lotteries. What happened here in Massachusetts is that they pulled the feet right out from under the Mafia. Their big money-maker had been "the numbers game," and the official Mafia numbers were even printed daily in one of the local papers. Totally illegal, but so popular that the state ended up "capitalizing by capitalizing," calling one of their games "The Numbers Game" and playing it exactly the same way. The state, by the way, takes a much larger percentage of the gross than the Mob ever did, but I guess people would rather play a game where the big winners aren't likely to rewarded with a set of cement overshoes.
Spring is just around the corner. The rutting season approaches. Deep down, primal forces are stirring. No longer able to fight for dominance of the herd the model railroader vigorously defends his turf. At stake the very lifeblood that courses through his rails. That which makes his domain hum with life is under threat and it must be defended. Some, not able or willing to stir for the fight seek solace in their own herd. But do not fear, as foam hills and mountains gradually turn to green with the placement of trees, as ground-foam Savannah's sprout into life, summer will soon be with us. Then, contented, peace will prevail, as we bask in the joy of new rolling stock passing before our eyes.
Aside from that I think everything is peachy!
So I am off to start a club for HO-code-100-track-using-Digitrax-operators-that-run-both-British-and-American-prototype. At last I can be the alpha-dog of my own pack!!!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
All I did was hurt my thumb and made a joking post about diabetis and not feeling pain and look how that took on a life of it's own. I noticed on the Scale Model forum that they have more catagories than here and don't seem to have the "club post" thing going on there.
Most of those posts only seem to have a hand full of regular posters on them.