British modelmakers

[ssgauge]

My post may be slightly off the subject, because it's about continental European railways rather than British.  Although I live in Idaho and have a very American S scale layout, I've long been intrigued by the 1930's-era Simplon Orient Express and would like to try scratchbuilding one piece of rolling stock from that train, just for static display.  Do any of you have any idea whether it's possible to find online scale plans for something like that?

[MidlandPacific]

OK - makes sense.  As a matter of interest, I noticed in the Quintinshill wreck report that the block (which had no station) also had a starting signal, further down the line from the home signals (the block had "advanced home signals" which protected the points for the passing loop).  Was that used only to signal a standing train that it could proceed? 

 

[Dave-the-Train]

As someone who has been involved in old style on-the-ground-training of Signalmen (before PC made them "signallers" ).

I suggest taking a step back... or a few... to a point on a big hill where you can look down on a ralway line.  This happens to be a big hill with the railway curving round its south side from East to West with three signal boxes at the points of the compass. East, South and West.  We're going to call those boxes A,B and C.  All the Boxes are on the North side of the line... and with our X ray telescope we can see that in each box the lever frame is between where the signalman walks up and down and the track.  The line is double track with normal left hand running. 

None of the signalboxes can see any of the others.

I will work through this area for Double Track, Signalled by Absolute Block with BR 3 position Block instruments.

You might like to draw this out as two parralel lines with the three box positions.  A signalbox is normally drawn as a rectangle with a straight line in it to represent the frame and a dot to represent the signalman.  In our case the bar will be nearer the track.  (It can be the other way round - very rarely the frame would be across one end or the other).  The reason that we can show the signalman as a fixed dot is that they move around very slowly.

Lookng at the A Box we can see that the far track - West Bound -  which we are going to identify as the "Down Line" - recall we are running on the correct lines (left hand running)  as the Chicago & North Western did NOT the wrong way round as the bulk of US RR did/do - - we can see that, among other things there is a signal post at the west end of the track immediately around the Box.  This signal post stands on the south sde of the track with a semaphore arm on the east face sticking out to the south.  That means that a Driver approachng from the East (going West) wll see the post on the left side of the track with the arm stickng out to the left.  From his position he will see a 4' long red arm with a white vertical stripe.  From where we are we will see the back of the arm which is white with a black vertical stripe.  This is a Stop Signal.

Turning west and following the line of track we can then see several miles of plain track with no more signals for the westbound directon for some miles.

The next signal we come to will have a > notch in the left hand end (furthest from the post), a yellow front with a black > chevron for the Driver to see.  From our side the notch and the chevron will be <.  the back is white and the chevron on the back is black.  This is a Distant Signal.  

Both signals (that we have seen so far) will be on the left of the line or bracketed over the centre of the line but no further to the right in all normal practice - as looked at by an approaching driver.  (This applies to all Running Signals - which are Signals on Running Lines - and most other signals).

The Distant Signal is located (sited) at the braking distance for the line speed, curvature and gradient of the line BEFORE - i.e. on the approach side - of the first Stop Signal to which it applies.

Continueing to follow the line the next signal we will see will be at that braking distance.  This will be a Stop Signal.  this Stop Signal is the "first Controlled Stop Signal" of Box B.

The length of line from A's last Stop Signal to B's First Controlled Stop Signal is the Absolute Block Section A to B.  The purpose of an Absolute block Section is to ensure that there is "only one train in the AB Section at one time in one direction"... in normal working.

B Box's First Controlled Stop Signal s the start of B Box's "Station Limits".  These extend all the way through to the last Stop Signal  operated by B Box on the Running Lines.

(Running Lines are the tracks trains make journeys on.  All other lines are "Non-Running-Lines"... unless designated as Running Lines in the Sectional Appendix to the Rule Book.  A Train is anything with a headcode and a tail lamp designated as a train.  If it doesn't have a headcode and tail lamp it can't be a train - for this purpose On Track Machines have to have the ability to display head and tail lights and they are classed as trains - although they may have special conditions controlling their movements as trains).

It is possible for this Stop Signal at B to be the only Stop Signal in this direction.  In this case the Station Limits are the thckness of the semaphore signal arm.  I have worked boxes wth only one Stop and one Distant.  You do not get a Stop without its related Distant.

More usually a Box will have up to four (very occasionally five) Stop Signals in one direction.  The interlocking will ensure that it is not physically possible to reverse(pull) the Distant Signal lever to display a proceed aspect/"Clear" on the Distant except when all the Stop Signal levers have been reversed in the frame.  It is the Signalman'r responsbility to ensure that the signal indication corresponds to the lever position correctly.

Okay, back at that first Signal.  from where we are on our hill we can see that it is 440yards on the approach side of the next Stop Signal which a train will arrive at before it arrives at the position of the Box.  ths means that the first signal we have arrived at is an Outer Home Sgnal and the next signal is an Inner Home Signal (Modern practice messes about with these ttles to make "the language clear" (*************).  Real Railwaymen know exactly what is meant... If you can't learn the basics you should stick with 00 and Hornby or Triang.

Trundling on the Box will be on the right hand side of the lines.

Beyond the Box we come to another Stop Signal and, beyond that we can see another Stop Signal not that far away - probably a long freight train plus a bit.  The near signal is therefore a Starter while the far signal is an Advanced Starter.  The Advanced Starter will be the Section Signal.  The Section Signal is the end of B Box's Station limits and the start of the Absolute Block Section from B to C.

Back on our hill we can turn around further toward the west and see that the same basic situation repeats itself toward C.  There is a length of line before we come to a Distant Signal, braking distance to a Stop Signal and then C box's Station Limits.

Exactle the same pattern applies in the opposite direction.  In the Eastbound case all the Signal posts (or dollies on brackets - don't worry about that for nthe moment - ) will be to the North of the line  or over the centre of the Eastbound track with the arms sticking out to the north.

As I have designated the Westbound line the "down line" the East bound line is the "Up Line".

<

[Dave-the-Train]

Part 2

Right.  Time to kick over the Knucklehead and head down to Box B.

We park, wave to the Signalman and stomp gently up HIS Signalbox steps.  At the top we knock politely on the door... because we don't want him to politely knock us back down the steps.  (Modern management has unlearnt this basic good manners and is under the mpression that the Box belongs to the railway).

Invited in we wipe our feet and move clear of the lever frame into the Box.  DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING!  Except the floor, whatever we are invited to sit on and the mug of tea that wll appear if we are up to standard.

As I have said this Box has a "front frame" so it is now between us and the track.  Those that have been brought up knowng no better think that this is the rght way round for a Box to be built... a bit like some people believe that a two wheeled mode of transport that burns rice could possibly be a motorcycle.  Those of us broung up proper know that the frame should be where we are now standing while we are next to the track where we can see what is going on.  Ths is a "Back frame" and the sensible way of doing things.

Similarly some weird frames have a dirty great big thing on the front side of the lever like a wooden stirrup.  This is the wrong way to do it.  The latch should be a proper, neat little lever behind the top of the lever.  In a reeal Box the whole of the top of the lever and the latch will be burnished (NOT polished!) by years of exclusive operation with a lever cloth.  Touch a lever with anything but a lever cloth and you are likely to wake up with a nasty ringing in the ears... possibly outside on the track.  Similarly brasswork will glow.

There is a difference.  Burnished equipment glows like a good fire in the grate.  Polished equipment shines like a chrome plated fender.

I'm going to wander off around the Box for a moment (or three).

The levers have their main bodies painted:-

• Red - Stop Signals, Shunt Signals and Subsiduary Signals.
• Yellow - Distant Signals
• Black - Points (Switches to you).
• Blue - Facing Point Locks (FPLs)
• Brown - Mechanical locks (mostly gates and such near the box)
• Blue upper half over Brown - Electrical locks (things like ground frames at a distance from the Box).
• White - Spare
• White with Black Chevrons - Detonator Placer / Emergency Detonator Placer (EDP) -- Chevrons pointing up = in Up Line -- pointing down = Down Line
• Green - King Lever (Exceptionally a Queen lever)
• A white 3" band mid way on a Red lever indicates that the signal is a Section Signal Locked by the Block.
• Red over Yellow halves indicates a lever controlling a Stop Signal followed by a Distant Signal which will only clear when the Stop is proved in the "Off"/"Proceed" position at the signal head.
• Black over Blue halves indicates a point operating ahead of its own FPL... but... this would be rare at the best of times... "Self locking" point motors are usually only gven a Black lever.
• A Red lever may have Black/White Chevrons where a Detonator placer co-acts.
• You could get Red over Yellow with both a 3" whte stripe and black & white chevrons... in theory.

 

[MidlandPacific]

This is absolutely fascinating.  Please feel free to continue - I'm still taking it all in. 

[Dave-the-Train]

Part 3

Over the lever frame there will usually be a Block Shelf.  This will usually be suoended from the ceiling/roof/beams by steel straps.

Each railways company had a preferance or three for what went on a Block Shelf and in what order.  Just to help matters this varied with time.  A modern Box may have different genrations of equiipment all mixed up together.  One thing to do s look at pics for your era.

However...

Things a Block shelf needs.

• 1 x Block Bell for each route controlled by the Box.
• 1 x Block Bell key (like a morse key) for each route controled by the Box.
• The above will be two each in our case... at a junction to one branch line there would need to be 3.
• The above two might also be combined in one instrument.
• 1 x Block Instrument for each route controlled by the Box... BUT a Block instrument comes in 3 parts - usually (but not always) combined. - There is a Block Indicator operated by the adjacent Box - a Repeater which shows what indication we are sending to the same adjacent Box - and the control mechanism that we operate to indicate the state of the block to the adjacent box. -- I list these because different types of equipment achieve the same end by totally different means... a Spagnoletti instrument looks totally diferent to a Sykes or BR instrument.  Just how it is operated varies as a consequence - but a talk through can be the same.
• 1 x Signalbox Diagram.  This is a schematic of everything between the Distant Signals plus anything outlaying such as a supervised Occupation Crossing or ground frame.
• Signalbox Diagrams used to have a distance chart and a Gradient Chart on them but this seems to vary now.
• Some Diagrams include track circuit indications.
• There may be a closing switch.
• All the above will be on top of the shelf
• There will be a facia on which there may be...
• 1 x Block Bell plunger  for each route controled by the Box (instead of a Block Bell Key).
• Track Circuit Indicators (if not on the diagram)
• Signal (position) indicators
• (signal) lamp indicators
• Various locks/releases
• Other stuff...

Somewhere the Box will also have at least one telephone.

All the equipment for communicating with the adjacent Box to one end of the Box will be at one end the Block Shelf.  Block bells are supposed to make a different sound so that as well as hearing the bell strokes from that end the Signalman will hear a different sound.  that is the theory.  Most Boxes i've worked the bell sounds pretty much the same... unless "assisted".  "Assistance" is against the rules.

A previous post has explained how the bells work and bell codes.

(That's a relief)!

As far as I recall you now have all the physical bits that you need to operate Absolute Block Signalling... writing off the top of my head.

 

SO...

Settled out of the Signalman's way we can see either

1. all of the Stop Signals and the track In Rear of them (on the Approach side) or
2. most of the Stop Signals as 1. with a combination of Track Circuit Indicators and Signal Repeaters for anything that can't be seen directly.

The Signalman isn't going to be able to see the miles of track in the Absolute Block Section.

This brings me to why I put Boxes A, B and C around the hill... they can't see each other... which is why we have Absolute block Signalling.

If you send a train from A to B... how do you know when it has got there complete?

Without Block Signalling the early railways didn't know... so they had crashes.

With the Block System the receiving Box (B in this case) controls the line running toward it.

So... the sequence of operation.

1. B has nothing "On the Block" on both sides.  So Both Indicators (from the adjacent Boxes) show "Normal"/white and both repeaters will show that we are sending "Normal"/white to both adjacent Boxes.
2. A has a train to send us.
3. A sends 1 beat to "call Attention".
4. We repeat 1 beat back to A.
5. A sends the Train Class Bell Code - We'll make it an ordinary Passenger Train - Class 2 - 3 pause 1 beats.
6. We know that we have "Nothing on" - from knowledge and what is recorded in the Train Register (a legal document that all train related activity gets written in).  We can also see (by sight or the Track Circuit indicator) that there is nothing in the Clearing Point between the Outer and Inner Home Signals.  (Except special circumstances the Clearing Point is always 440yards inside (In Advance of) the first Controlled Stop Signal).
7. We set the Block instrument from "normal" to "Line Clear"/green and send back the Bell Code (3 pause 1) [Also shown as 3-1].
8. As we're "Locked by the Block" we have now released A Box's Section Signal.
9. When the train leaves A he sends us "Train Entering Section" (2 Beats).
10. We send back 2 beats and set the Block Instrument to "Train On Line"/Red.  We check that our Block Repeater shows Train on Line/red.
11. We now go to the C end of the Box and send "Call Attention" (1) to C.  (Bearing in mind that we already know that we have nothing about... and C's Block Indicator is showing "Normal"/white... plus the Train Register).
12. C should send back 1 beat.  Assuming he does we can continue.
13. We send 3-1
14. C sets his Block instrument from "Normal" to "Line Clear" and gives us a "Line Clear"?green indication on the C Block Indicator.
15. Our Section Signal - The Down Line Advanced Starter - is now released by the Block.
16. We pull off the Down Line Stop Signals checking that each signal gives a good "Off"/"Clear"/"Proceed" indication.
17. We then Pull off the Down Distant and check that the Signal Repeater/indicator on the facia of the Block shelf give and "Off" (not a "Wrong") indication.
18. The passenger train may now run straight through as the Driver requires.
19. When the train comes in sight we return the Distant Signal to "Caution".
20. When the train passes inside (In Advance of/beyond) the Outer Home Signal we return it to Stop/Danger.
21. If the Train is not stopping we will probably send 2 beats to C about now.
22. Assuming we just sent 2 to C we want to hear those 2 repeated and see his Block Indicator change to "Train on Line"/Red.
23. About now the tail of the train will have past the inner home Signal so we restore that to Red.
24. All the time we are also watching the train pass and checking that nothing is wrong with it.
25. When the tail of the train passes complete with tail Lamp/Light we send 1 beat to A
26. A repeats the 1 beat.
27. We Send "Train Out of Section"/(TES) 2-1 beats to A and set the block instrument to "Normal" checking that our repeater indicates "Normal"/white
28. Now A knows that the train is clear of the Block Section despite the fact that he can't see it.
29. As the train proceeds we restore the Starter and Advance Starter behind it.
30. In time we should get 1 beat from C, followed by 2-1 "ToS" and the C Block Indicator should change from "Train on Line"/red to "normal"/white after we repeat the signals back to C.
31. We are then back where we started with nothing on the Block.
32. The aim is always to return to the empty block situation.

That's it.

Simple isn't it?

However many trains you have you just keep repeating this sequence.

I need to go to work for a rest...

[MidlandPacific]

And this is a fairly frequent process, is it not?  Many more trains per hour than you would see in the States?

[Dave-the-Train]

And this is a fairly frequent process, is it not?  Many more trains per hour than you would see in the States?

That gets into line speed, train speed, Block occupation time, density of traffic, length of the Block sections and stuff...

Block Sections can be shortened by swtching in Block boxes or lengthened by swtching them out... hence the closing switch on the Block Shelf or a King lever  (A Queen lever knocks out the block only leaving a Box guarding somethng like a level crossing only... means the company only have to pay Crossing Keeper rate... until the Unions - rightly -  knobled that... so very few Queen levers installed).

Frequency of trains depends on location and era as well.

Blocks are shorter for heavy trafiic... or you move to adding Intermedite Block, possibly Automatic block and then on to Track Circuit Block.  Bell codes can still be used with TCB.

What do you reckon the most important piece of equipment in a Signalbox is?

 

[Dave-the-Train]

Step 4.

There we are, drnking tea and chatting with a Class 1 train approaching on the Down and clear road thrugh to C, a train in Section between us and A and another one in Section between us and C... and we get 6 beats "Obstruction Danger" from C...

Want to suggest what the Signaller does next?

[devils]

Throw all the sticks back in the frame and put the kettle on again as the driver might need a cup to calm him down, wait for a call from C to explain what's up.

[boxcar_jim]

 Ahhhh .....

 ... so now you know why so many Brits model American trains.

[Dave-the-Train]

 Ahhhh .....

 ... so now you know why so many Brits model American trains.

I wish!  Sadly very few Brtish modellers have much of a clue about signalling and operating practice.  It is more likely this and just not havng a clue what to do with their trains that leads them to move on to other countries trains when they have run out of things to argue about such as "just what colour exactly was Midland red"?

 I just wish that I could get more defnitive answers on US signalling and ops practice.  There appears to be one huge difference between UK and US... we give less information but tell a Driver exactly what is required while the US give a whole load more (vague by UK standards) information and leave an awful lot to the Engineers discretion.  This is just two ways of doing the same thing.  When a Driver reads his signals he knows exactly what route he will be taking and what speed he can expect to run at - route signalling.  A US Engineer has a rough guide to what speed he may proceed at and  - as far as I can tell - a selection of routes that he may be following - Speed Signalling.  never the twain shall meet.

I expect that anyone who is used to one system would pretty much hate the other.  it's like being brought up on real motorcycles and things that burn rice, saurkraut or spaghetti... at least some of the Bolognese burners are semi reasonable.  Personally I go for the ones that chew Black Pudding or Buffalo Steaks.

 

PS What's a Brit?  I'm English... I don't eat haggis, I don't wave leaks around at Rugby matches, I don't have a red hand or three legs and I drink warm Ale made with the right hops.  Ever tried telling a Scot he's "Scotch"?  Forget "god save the queen"... we had to borrow the Scotish lineage... "Send 'em back" is what I say.  Then again Liz is German and Phil is Greek... so they're pretty representative of our "multi cultural society".  I'd ratherput up with Liz than the presidents you've been lumbered with while she's been on the "throne".  OOPS!  Mustn't be "political". (Always wondered when I'd get to use that smiley! )

[Dave-the-Train]

Throw all the sticks back in the frame and put the kettle on again as the driver might need a cup to calm him down, wait for a call from C to explain what's up.

Close but no cigar.

Why your choice of actions?

You've forgotten a very significant action (or an alternate) if you are a signaller...   Clue... what's C going to do if you don't do it before one of you phones up? [In fact, if you don't do the one he's hoping for (followed by 3-5 at some point), he'll be doing something unprintable here.  If you do the alternate he will be seriously doing the unprintable until he finds out what you are doing... that phone could melt. ]

Which Driver?  You have three on the Block...

It's fun training Signalmen you can drive them nuts getting them to recall all the steps while you sit there doing extra work that you're not otherwise being paid any extra for.   Make 'em suffer!  It'll do 'em good!

Smiles are working again! 

PS If they have their s**t together when they finish training they'll stand a chance when the s**t hits the fan.  ... and they won't waste time phoning up management for permission to... I guess I'd better not say that... We were trained to do the job and expected to do it.  These days they train to make sure the paperwork is right so that the blame may be allocated correctly.  Heaven forbid that a comma is left out on the paperwork!

PPS Last night the guy running my part of the show was new and being "mentored" ().  I gave him the best advice I know... given to me by an old driver just after I started (back n '78 )... "When something goes "BANG"!  Make sure your backside isn't on fire then light up a cigarrette". (actually he said "a ***" but that isn't the same thing in the USA).  [[we're only seperated by the same language ).

PPS Good grief!  I got censored out for spelling "Foxtrot, Alpha, Golf".  in the UK we fill paper with tobacco and smoke Foxtrot, Alpha, Golfs... and that's probably far more unhealthy.

[Dave-the-Train]

My post may be slightly off the subject, because it's about continental European railways rather than British.  Although I live in Idaho and have a very American S scale layout, I've long been intrigued by the 1930's-era Simplon Orient Express and would like to try scratchbuilding one piece of rolling stock from that train, just for static display.  Do any of you have any idea whether it's possible to find online scale plans for something like that?

No.

Then again... try "Continental Modeller" and/or any UK based Swiss railway group.  Google? I HATE saying that!

[MidlandPacific]

 Ahhhh .....

 ... so now you know why so many Brits model American trains.

I wish!  Sadly very few Brtish modellers have much of a clue about signalling and operating practice.  It is more likely this and just not havng a clue what to do with their trains that leads them to move on to other countries trains when they have run out of things to argue about such as "just what colour exactly was Midland red"?

 I just wish that I could get more defnitive answers on US signalling and ops practice.  There appears to be one huge difference between UK and US... we give less information but tell a Driver exactly what is required while the US give a whole load more (vague by UK standards) information and leave an awful lot to the Engineers discretion.  This is just two ways of doing the same thing.  When a Driver reads his signals he knows exactly what route he will be taking and what speed he can expect to run at - route signalling.  A US Engineer has a rough guide to what speed he may proceed at and  - as far as I can tell - a selection of routes that he may be following - Speed Signalling.  never the twain shall meet.

I expect that anyone who is used to one system would pretty much hate the other.  it's like being brought up on real motorcycles and things that burn rice, saurkraut or spaghetti... at least some of the Bolognese burners are semi reasonable.  Personally I go for the ones that chew Black Pudding or Buffalo Steaks.

 

PS What's a Brit?  I'm English... I don't eat haggis, I don't wave leaks around at Rugby matches, I don't have a red hand or three legs and I drink warm Ale made with the right hops.  Ever tried telling a Scot he's "Scotch"?  Forget "god save the queen"... we had to borrow the Scotish lineage... "Send 'em back" is what I say.  Then again Liz is German and Phil is Greek... so they're pretty representative of our "multi cultural society".  I'd ratherput up with Liz than the presidents you've been lumbered with while she's been on the "throne".  OOPS!  Mustn't be "political". (Always wondered when I'd get to use that smiley! )

U.S. signalling and operations practice varies, sometimes a lot.  There is a standard rule book that's descended from the one the companies agreed on back in 1883 - you might take a look at Peter Josserand's "Rights of Trains," which has a pretty good explanation of the timetable and train order system.  I know in the northeast the NORAC rules are in widespread use (I enclosed a good link below) - I think they're an outgrowth of the Pennsy's rules, and I know Amtrak uses them.  For the era I know (1880s-1930s), there were some wild, kluged-together systems.  The SP used a staff system for operations over Donner Pass for awhile, with a series of staff stations and special signals designed to be seen in the snowsheds.  In some places a timetable and train order system was in use for a double-tracked line, with interlockings at intervals in communication with the dispatcher to control movements - Amtrak ran the Northeast Corridor like that until 1987 or 1988, when they introduced CTC, and the B&O used to run the West End of the Cumberland Division that way, too - independent helper movements out of M&K Junction on the Cheat River Grade and Cranberry Grade were, if memory serves, basically controlled by the tower at Rowlesburg (across the river from M&K), with minimal reference to the dispatcher in Cumberland.  On the other hand, there really wasn't any automatic signalling beyond the Front Range in Colorado before the First World War - all of the roads that penetrated the mountains (Colorado & Southern's South Park Division, the Grande, the Midland, and all the smaller roads) used timetable and train order operation.  There's a hair-raising story in John Norwood's "Rio Grande Memories" about this - he was working as a dispatcher at Salida, Colorado in 1942, and he cleared the westbound Scenic Limited for Tennessee Pass, and a couple seconds later heard "OS, Tennessee Pass" from the telegraph sounder - and realized he had just cleared a 3400-class Mallet to run east on the same line.  He said that fortunately for him and a lot of other people, the operator at Malta was listening, and he ran out to the western switch on the passing track with a red fusee, and got it open just before the Mallet arrived - they barely got the switch closed behind it when the limited appeared.  He thought he was going to get fired, but the chief dispatcher tore a wide strip off him, and he went on to a long career on the Grande. 

A lot of the western roads use CTC now - it really became widespread in the West during WWII, because it was a way to increase capacity without laying more rail or buying more locomotives, which were rationed by the War Production Board.  I suspect the difference between national practice is a product of route length, traffic density, and labor cost - Mapquest distance between DC and Chicago is 700 miles, and I gather the A1 between London and Edinburgh is 413 miles - so that would be a LOT of signalboxes, and you aren't even to the Mississippi River yet.  And there's one through passenger train between the two each day in each direction, and, at the DC end, 9 morning eastbound commuter trains from Martinsburg to DC Union Station, and 10 westbound evening commuter trains. 

Lumbered with is about the word, sometimes! 

http://www.ihbrr.com/bulletins/7412_NORAC_alt2.pdf

 

 

[Dave-the-Train]

Thanks for that MP

Your analysis confirms my research so far with some useful specifics about who, where and when.  The link is good to.

The thing that drives me nuts with US practice is that where for a British example I can give a pretty good guide to what signals, where, when and even by whom (which supplier or railway company) once I know the Company, era, layout, traffic, line speed, gradients, curves, and stock for the US it seems extremely vague.

You are definitely right about the issue of distance.  It impacts immensely on the practicality of a system like ours.  We need the tight control in much the same way as new York or Chicago need traffic lights.  You don't see many traffic lights way out in Arizona or Texas though.  Without the control we could not handle the traffic at the speed.  Against that when you have hundreds of miles of run a train can make up time where the road is visibly clear against having to slow down to check where the road is set at other places.  This alos links to why there is much heavier investment in fixed signalling in the North Eastern States and, perticularly, the N E Corridor.

Have my notes cast any light?

Do you want to answer the awkward questions?

Do you want more?

Have a nice day!

[MidlandPacific]

Thanks for that MP

Your analysis confirms my research so far with some useful specifics about who, where and when.  The link is good to.

The thing that drives me nuts with US practice is that where for a British example I can give a pretty good guide to what signals, where, when and even by whom (which supplier or railway company) once I know the Company, era, layout, traffic, line speed, gradients, curves, and stock for the US it seems extremely vague.

You are definitely right about the issue of distance.  It impacts immensely on the practicality of a system like ours.  We need the tight control in much the same way as new York or Chicago need traffic lights.  You don't see many traffic lights way out in Arizona or Texas though.  Without the control we could not handle the traffic at the speed.  Against that when you have hundreds of miles of run a train can make up time where the road is visibly clear against having to slow down to check where the road is set at other places.  This alos links to why there is much heavier investment in fixed signalling in the North Eastern States and, perticularly, the N E Corridor.

Have my notes cast any light?

Do you want to answer the awkward questions?

Do you want more?

Have a nice day!

I thought Devils beat me to the punch - with short blocks and trains going at 60+ mph, I think the only step I would have added would be to make sure that was tea for two, if I got all the signals at "danger" before someone hit someone else.

Your notes were useful - I will have to read them over a few more times to see if I have any questions. 

The best source for individual company practice would be individual company timetables and rulebooks. 

You can find them on Ebay or specialist dealer sites - here's a link to the General Code of Operating Rules (GCOR), which is widely used west of the Mississippi.  And a link to a page full of older timetables, plus one seller I found on the web.  A lot of railroad histories here include the timetables as appendices. 

http://www.trainweb.com/gcor/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/orvillei/ttindex.html

http://countryjoe.bizland.com/store/timetables-01.html

 

 

[MidlandPacific]

 Ahhhh .....

 ... so now you know why so many Brits model American trains.

British railways have their own particular appeal to us: the spectacular, ninteenth century viaducts, short, fast, very frequent trains, and beautifully decorated locomotives: I remember opening a book and seeing a color painting of one of the Jones 4-4-0s from the Highland Railway and thinking, now that's color!  Even the GN's Glacier scheme seems drab and workaday compared to the decoration on British steam. 

[Dave-the-Train]

Thanks again.

I've a print out of the GCOR somewhere.

I just love this rule...

1.11 Sleeping Employees must not sleep while on duty. Employees reclined with their eyes closed will be in violation of this rule.

[MidlandPacific]

And you know that rule's there because SOMEBODY managed to wriggle out of punishment somehow......

[devils]

Thanks again.

I've a print out of the GCOR somewhere.

I just love this rule...

1.11 Sleeping Employees must not sleep while on duty. Employees reclined with their eyes closed will be in violation of this rule.

[devils]

Dave

There we are, drnking tea and chatting with a Class 1 train approaching on the Down and clear road thrugh to C, a train in Section between us and A and another one in Section between us and C... and we get 6 beats "Obstruction Danger" from C...

Want to suggest what the Signaller does next?

This is what I surmised without a diagram to assist.

-

"train in Section between us and A and another one in Section between us and C"

From this I surmise we are at B

-

"a Class 1 train approaching on the Down and clear road thrugh to C,"

Therefore Down line A-B occupied and Down line B-C Line Clear.

-

"train in Section between us and A and another one in Section between us and C..."

This means as the Down is already covered we are talking about the UP line? You identified the Westbound of two parallel lines ,A-B, as down in part 1.

I assumed from this that "a train in Section between us and A" referred to a Train on the Up in which case it is heading away from Us to A and not affected by 6 bells from C.

"and another one in Section between us and C..."

Now the six bells may refer to this train either running or stopped with a problem so we need to stop it if the driver is unaware or protect it if it is stopped with a problem.

-

So we put all signals affecting the train approaching on the Down to danger to stop it from entering the obstructed section to C.

We also put back the Home signal on the Up line to stop "another one in Section between us and C" UP LINE because if it is running still with something causing an obstruction on it then we don't want it to pass the train on the Down line.

Put kettle on because if either Driver has passed the distant and comes across an unexpected Danger  signal he will either need to calm his nerves or wait while his trousers dry out by the fire!

 

Did I forget to return 6 bells per chance, darn it's the things you do by instinct you forget to write down.

It's always easier when you know the patch and have the diagram in front of you!  

[devils]

These days they train to make sure the paperwork is right so that the blame may be allocated correctly.  Heaven forbid that a comma is left out on the paperwork!

Oh yeah, we were even given a good practice guide to make sure we crossed out all the boxes correctly! They banned abbreviations, even those understood by everyone on the railway who would be called if evidence were required. We also pointed out that NR for Network Rail was listed in the company literature!!!!

So you can't write BOMO for Bournemouth or POMO for Portsmouth but you can write PICOP for Person In Charge Of Possesion . . . or isn't an anacronym an abbreviation anymore?

[Dave-the-Train]

These days they train to make sure the paperwork is right so that the blame may be allocated correctly.  Heaven forbid that a comma is left out on the paperwork!

Oh yeah, we were even given a good practice guide to make sure we crossed out all the boxes correctly! They banned abbreviations, even those understood by everyone on the railway who would be called if evidence were required. We also pointed out that NR for Network Rail was listed in the company literature!!!!

So you can't write BOMO for Bournemouth or POMO for Portsmouth but you can write PICOP for Person In Charge Of Possesion . . . or isn't an anacronym an abbreviation anymore?

On one of the patches I work the management have taken away the "T3"  Possession wording stamps - for those who will not know - A T3 Possession is the set of Rules by whch the Engineers take complete control of a length of line and do whatever they want in it from inspections to taking bridges out or demolishing things onto the track (and then cleaning up) - The wording is -

"The Up/Down* Line from detonators placed 440 yards in advance/In rear of *------ to detonators placed 440yards in rear/in advance* of ----- has been taken possession of by --name-- at --time-- on -- at/speaking from---- (tel.no.----)." 

[* delete as appropriate - one line will go from In advance of a signal or location to in rear of while the other will go from in rear of to in advance of travelling wrong direction -usually].

 (Er... I think i got that right, hevan't done it myself fo a few years ).  As Devils will know a Saturday night will often see both lines T3 blocked on one side of a Signalbox - Block Post - and both lines T3 blocked on the other side - called "back to back possessions" --- this means that the spiel has to written out four times.   AND the reasons for taking the rubber stamps away?  (1) someone stamped one upside down and, instead of crossing through it and starting again turned the book round and filled it in... (2) clearly Signallers weren't paying sufficient attention to what was happening if they only stamped it so they should pay attention by writing it all out four times  every night.

If a Signaller gets it wrong he/she is looking at a life sentence...

I don't think any further comment is needed.

When I was in the Ticket Office in Central London I had a trainee clerk... on her first shift at the sales window I had to keep taking over and knocking out tickets fast to get the queue back down.  When the peak ended she asked me if she could ask a question.  Naturally I said "No" first... so, when we'd got past that... she said "Um... you don't address the customers [that's passengers on a railway] the way they taught us... and, um, you don't put the tickets down the way they showed us".

They taught them how to put the tickets down! 

They didn't tell them how not to get held up with a saw-off shotgun on the way in/out of the office...

[Dave-the-Train]

On the "Obstruction Danger" thing...

Why do you need a diagram?

Yes, the Class 1 is on the Down - I was assuming that we were still drinking tea in the same Box - ("B") - and we have trains in both Block Sections on the Up Line.

Things I'm looking for:-

• 6 beats.
• C's Block Indicator goes from "Line Clear"/green to "Train on Line"[/"Line Blocked"]/red.
• Pull the Down Line EDP if one is provided.  (Putting the dets onto the rail head).
• Signalman throws back all the Down Line Stop Signals and puts a lever collar on the Advanced Starter - and then the Distant all the time looking for the Class 1 - which is likely to be coming at speed as it is a Class 1.
• We can go one of four ways from here for the Down Line.
• Class 1 isn't close and will come onto a Distant at Caution and therefore stop normally at the Outer Home... possibly blowing for the road a bit.
• In the old days we would have gone out as soon as possible and put 3 dets 20 yards apart on the Down Line... they've taken your dets away so you can't do that now.  But if I had a Hand Signalman around on another job I would get him to put his three dets down - SAFELY without getting hit by anything.
• Class 1 is approaching the Distant at speed and sees it "bang" on/go back to "Caution".  He will blow like mad in warning and make a full brake application - keeping braking hard until he stops - depending on the circumstances he may be about to over-run some signals... If he is going to run by (SPAD - Signal Past at Danger)  he will be blowing like crazy as he comes onto the Outer Home - Having the line clear within your Station Limits you can clear The Outer Home - if this is manual [not motored] - you would clear it very slowly.  He will then stop the main noise and blow a short blast in acknowledgement.  You can repeat the slow clear with the Inner Home and the Starter.  You have collared the Down Advanced Starter and it has been "Locked by the Block" by C so you cannot pull that again.
• Class 1 is between the Distant and the Outer Home.  He's past the Distant at "Clear" so he's going to be coming on at full speed to a Stop Signal at Stop/Red/Danger.  He's going to hit the brakes and the horns with everything he's got.  (I've been here - we woke up the entire village with the racket he kicked up).  He's going to slide by.  I would leave the Outer at Danger/Red but I can still pull the Inner and Starter slowly to help his nerves and certain muscles that he will be flexing quite strongly.  As we have the full set of 4 Stop Signals we have a good chance that he will be able to pull up before he reaches the Advanced Starter.
• Class 1 is right on the Outer Home Signal or into Station Limits - at speed - IF he gets to see the signals drop to Danger/red he's going to hit the lot (been there too... would you believe a train horn can scream?  It was at night with shoe brakes on the CCTs... couldn't hear them for the horn but you shpuld have seen the sparks). -- He's likely to run through - if he can see that his track is clear and safe he is actually allowed to -it's still a SPAD but it can be written up and be okay.
• Now then... If he passes the Advanced Starter at Danger/Red we will be sending "Train Running Away Right Line" to C.  (That's really going to do his blood pressure some good) -- [Um ] That's 2-5-5 isn't it?  We'll send this even if he's going to stop in sight. 
• If the train stops before or inside Station Limits we repeat the 6 back to C. 
• When we know that the train has stopped and will not move on we can cancel him off to C.  We do this because both our Train Register and C's show the train offered on and accepted and we have to get back to no train offered or accepted between us regardless of the 6 beats - everything ALWAYS returns to "Normal".  - BUT... if he's run by the Section Signal we won't be able to cancel him off unless we work him back inside Station Limits wrong direction.  If he continues on through at some point without having come back and been cancelled he will be cleard of the Block by 2-1 in the normal way - the 6 will not have been cleared with 2-1 Train Out of Section/Obstruction Removed.  This is one of the rare times you have two things going on within the Block section at once.  BUT it is not "Normal Working".
• .
• Meanwhile we have one train going away from us on the Up toward A and another approaching from C on the Up.
• If the problem originated with the train in the forward section toward A the Signalman at C should have phoned us - or A - to get it stopped... hoping that it hasn't done anything to the Class 1 on the Down.
• Whether that is the case or there is an issue with the train approaching from C we want, if possible, to keep the Down train apart from the approaching Up train... at least until we know that there won't be aproblem from their running alonside each other.  This is why I didn't let the Class1 on the Down inside the Outer Home in the first case where he was able to stop at it.  If the Class 1 came in or ran through/by I would be looking to stop the oppsing train before it reached him.  We have an advantage here in that the road is already against the approaching Up train - because of the train in the Section In Advance.
• If I had had a clear road for the Up train I'm not going to put the Up road Stop Signals back against the Up train if he's close on them at speed unless I can see or otherwise know that there is a problem with the train but I may knock out 6 to A.  This one is an "as the situation demands" decision.  "If in doubt bang 'em out"... and throw back in front of the train.
• [If anyone is wondering... you KNOW when you hear Six beats].
• There are two times you really don't want to hear 6... just as you give "Train Entering Section" and as you sit on the loo.
• As soon as practical we want to be contacting C Box - if he hasn't contacted us -  to find out what he knows so far about what and where the problem is.
• .
• It may be that he has sent on 6 because he has not been able to stop that second train on the Up because it has already gone by him but he has learnt that it has caused a problem on the far side of C.  If this is the case he will have sent 6 because there is a danger to the other line.  If the problem is only with the train C will send 7 "Stop and Examine".  Notice that 7 is going to wake me up pretty sharpish on its way through 6.  If I get 7 I'm still going to want to know FAST if i need to stop the Down Class 1 but I'm not looking to throw back against it so fast.
• 6 beats stops the job.
• If I know that the problem is not far beyond my Station Limits and I have time with a train close on, on the Down I will keep all my signals on and give an Emergency Stop hand signal from the Box.  If he's sliding by the Driver really does not want to see this.
• Now then... what have I missed out?

 Whenever I

[devils]

Yep I doodled the diagram, Det placers on the modern railway? we aren't even allowed to carry them in the car anymore unless its got explosives hazard stickers all over it. Been there with 6 bells on more than one occasion. Cars on the line, (3 times so far, 1 Missed level crossing drove up track onto third rail and caught fire, Number 2 missed turning left at a bridge and ended up with the car sat in the six foot with wheels touching both lines, Number 3 thought he was a pilot and launched his car at 90mph off a gate post and hit a tree 20foot up and came to a rest touching the rail in the cess, see below, and they all were able to walk away admittedly slowly) , train on fire (stop & examine didn't seem sufficient). I agree with the above I just save all the writing for the work tests

This is after it was pulled back from the rail

 

if you look hard you'll see the broken branches on the tree on the left and the work 4x4 in the background.

 

[MidlandPacific]

Dave,

 Went back through my notebook and did some checking - you might also want to check out "Elements of Train Dispatching" in two volumes for US prototype practice - by a guy named Thomas White - here's a good distributor that I use frequently - usually a bit less than MSRP.

I have been wracking my brain for good sources on US prototype practice - there are some reprints of "Common Standard" stuff for some of the Harriman lines (UP, SP, IC) that might have some stuff - you might also want to see what you can find on the larger purveyors, such as Union Switch and Signal, since a lot of installation was of semi-standardized equipment, on an as-needed basis, to deal with specific traffic problems.

One other phenomenon that will amuse you - you might hear, from time to time, of a practice called "smoking" or "smoke signals."  That involves moving a train on a slow-speed, unsignalled district from siding to siding by watching for smoke ahead, and stopping and whistling out a flagman if it comes into sight.  Highly unauthorized, but sometimes practiced under train order operation to get ahead of a delayed opposing train if the dispatcher's not inclined to help you along.  There are some stories about this practice in Jack Bowden's book on the SP's Modoc Line and John Signor's book on the Shasta Division - doesn't require any signals, but you do need smoke units (the Modoc was completely unsignalled, save for an interlocking at the GN crossing at Stronghold, between its completion and its demise in 1997). 

As a matter of interest, do you know of a good book on interlocking logic?  I have started doing some sketching, thinking that I would start by designing an interlocking for a junction on the MP.  There are a couple of modelers' books that I have found here, but they tend to be vague on the details of interlocking design. 

http://www.railroadbooks.biz/

 

[wairoa]

I operate both British and US models. The knew British models from Hornby and Bachman are just as well detailed as those from Atlas, Kato and P2k. Just make sure you are getting the knew models and not those from 10 years ago. Of course these knewer models are also significantly more expensive than their older and rather toy like predecessors. My biggest issue with OO is the size of it. I really wish Hornby etc would start building in HO. There is a big difference in size between a Bachman class 60 and it's Mehano equivalant. Oh yes the knew Mehano range is also excellent.

[MidlandPacific]

There's some very nice stuff out there - the kits look impressive.  The range of signalling equipment is especially interesting to me. 

[boxcar_jim]

PS What's a Brit?  I'm English... I don't eat haggis, I don't wave leaks around at Rugby matches, I don't have a red hand or three legs and I drink warm Ale made with the right hops.  Ever tried telling a Scot he's "Scotch"?  Forget "god save the queen"... we had to borrow the Scotish lineage... "Send 'em back" is what I say.  Then again Liz is German and Phil is Greek... so they're pretty representative of our "multi cultural society".  I'd ratherput up with Liz than the presidents you've been lumbered with while she's been on the "throne".  OOPS!  Mustn't be "political". (Always wondered when I'd get to use that smiley! )

You can be English if you want - I'm British - at least we agree on the ale. (FYI - one half of me waves St George's flag and the other the Legs of Man), or maybe I'm just a citizen of the European Union ... oops mustn't be political now.

Now, Dave and Devils for heaven's sake will you leave the signalling stuff alone ... your making us all look like a bunch of ... err ... well ... train spotters?

On a more serious note I think you're right about few Brits actually understanding signalling and operating practice - just read back your posts and then wonder why? The basic details of block signalling is fairly straight forward, but applying the detail is impenetrable to the lay man. I'm guessing that one or both of you are in the industry. Researching that is way beyond what I'd consider fun, which if I remember correctly is the whole point of this hobby - right? Ah, yes that's something else British modellers seem to have forgotten ....

The other thing about British modelling is that layouts tend to be a) exhibition orientated b) much smaller. In an portable exhibition layout the emphasis on prototypical operation is replaced, to a greater or lesser extent, by the need to keep something moving for Joe public who paid to come in and watch the trains. Being smaller there is less railway to signal or need to understand the operating complexities, a few approximately correct looking signals is all it takes.

I operate both British and US models. The knew British models from Hornby and Bachman are just as well detailed as those from Atlas, Kato and P2k. Just make sure you are getting the knew models and not those from 10 years ago. Of course these knewer models are also significantly more expensive than their older and rather toy like predecessors. My biggest issue with OO is the size of it. I really wish Hornby etc would start building in HO. There is a big difference in size between a Bachman class 60 and it's Mehano equivalant. Oh yes the knew Mehano range is also excellent.

Its unsurprising that Hornby and Bachmann's British stuff is getting closer to US models - they are all made in the same factories in China. Yes there is a sizeable difference between 4mm and 3.5mm scales, problem is now that way too much of the "compromise" OO/HO been sold over the years to allow any commercial change to happen. Rivarossi (and someone else Jeuof or Lima?) tried some HO a few years back and it flopped - no-one would buy it in the UK. Mehano's class 66  (as far as I am aware Mehano don't do a Class 60 which is a rather different looking beast http://www.semg.org.uk/diesel/class60_1.html) is aimed at the European market where there loads of class 66's in service too.

Scale modellers in the UK tend to have gone the other way about adressing the out of scale rails problem - sticking with OO scale (1:76 4mm/ft scale) and altering the gauge - there are two schools of thought 18mm gauge EM, or Scale / Proto 4 - 18.83mm.

There's some very nice stuff out there - the kits look impressive.  The range of signalling equipment is especially interesting to me. 

You are absolutely right, away from the RTR stuff there are loads of craftsman kits about of, it has to be said, varying quality. Certainly many of these kits require a great deal of skill to build, far more than I have ever seen with any US kit in recent times. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing its just emphasising a different aspect of the hobby.