Ken,
It's a pretty straight-forward concept.
You have two wires from your DC transformer connecting to your layout, right?
You'll have two wires connecting from your DCC unit, right?
They connect in the same place, right?
All you have to do is make sure you have one or the other, but not both, active at the same time. You can do it manually, or install a switch to change over.
I just did this today with my Atlas track cleaning car, which is not recommended for DCC. I simply disconnected the DCC and hooked up the DC transformer in its place. Two wires, two minutes.
Don't let your inventory of engines stop you from playing with DCC. Convert a few and have fun.
Mike Tennent
CSX_road_slug wrote: Hi guys, my layout currently is still DC but I'm rarin' to cross over to the DCC side. Fact is, I planned to do so when I moved to my current house 7 years ago. I bought a Digitraxx Chief starter set (Super Chief did'nt exist back then) and it's been mothballed for all these years. [I hope I can still use it...?] What's been holding me back is the dread of trying to equip all of my 35+ analog locos with decoders. Then I noticed the following: MTennent wrote:... One thing ... is that we accomodate both DC and DCC members. Initially, this will probably mean we run DC on the old club nights and set aside another time for DCC operations. Some of us have a mix of engines, so we'll be set for both nights.If that can really be done, I may be closer to DCC than I think. But I also remember reading somewhere else that flip-flopping a layout between DCC and DC modes is impractical if not impossible. Mike I sure hope your'e right, because I'd really like to be able to do the DCC thing gradually instead of all-or-nothing...
Hi guys, my layout currently is still DC but I'm rarin' to cross over to the DCC side. Fact is, I planned to do so when I moved to my current house 7 years ago. I bought a Digitraxx Chief starter set (Super Chief did'nt exist back then) and it's been mothballed for all these years. [I hope I can still use it...?]
What's been holding me back is the dread of trying to equip all of my 35+ analog locos with decoders. Then I noticed the following:
MTennent wrote:... One thing ... is that we accomodate both DC and DCC members. Initially, this will probably mean we run DC on the old club nights and set aside another time for DCC operations. Some of us have a mix of engines, so we'll be set for both nights.
If that can really be done, I may be closer to DCC than I think. But I also remember reading somewhere else that flip-flopping a layout between DCC and DC modes is impractical if not impossible. Mike I sure hope your'e right, because I'd really like to be able to do the DCC thing gradually instead of all-or-nothing...
Another deal is that Digitrax lets you run analog locos at the same time you're running DCC. Analog locos run at address 00. I've run both DC and DCC engines at the same time. It's kind of a parlor trick in that the DCC signal "fools" the analog loco into thinking it's getting a voltage change when in fact the track voltage is constant. It tends to make a somewhat disagreeable buzzing sound and heats up your analog engine a little, but I ran an analog engine this way at a show for a few hours at a stretch and didn't kill it.
Just another way you can "ease" into DCC instead of plunging headlong.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Squeaky Wheels,
Curious: Which system and setup do you have?
I'm a DCC newbie so whenever I have the chance, I talk to modelelers about it. With some DCC conversion was not diificult at all, while with some others it was a challenge.
From what I've learned there were factors that affected the modeler's scenario. Good/rough Trackwork, solder joints, the selected system, condition of locomotives, layout size, etc.,.
I'm still taking notes and learning as much I can. The more I read, the simpler DCC seems to become. As someone who is electronically challenged, it's a good feeling.
I have two P2K E units, each equipped with a Digitrax 163. They're sweet runners.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
CSX_road_slug wrote: What's been holding me back is the dread of trying to equip all of my 35+ analog locos with decoders.
What's been holding me back is the dread of trying to equip all of my 35+ analog locos with decoders.
Convert enough to run, add another every few weeks, or months, eventually all the ones you use will be done.
CSX_road_slug wrote: Then I noticed the following: MTennent wrote:... One thing ... is that we accomodate both DC and DCC members. Initially, this will probably mean we run DC on the old club nights and set aside another time for DCC operations. Some of us have a mix of engines, so we'll be set for both nights.If that can really be done, I may be closer to DCC than I think. But I also remember reading somewhere else that flip-flopping a layout between DCC and DC modes is impractical if not impossible. Mike I sure hope your'e right, because I'd really like to be able to do the DCC thing gradually instead of all-or-nothing...
What you don't want to do is try to have some of the layout DC and some DCC at the same time. Other than that, it really isn't an issue.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
AntonioFP45 wrote: I'm still taking notes and learning as much I can. The more I read, the simpler DCC seems to become. As someone who is electronically challenged, it's a good feeling.
I've been trying to make this point for a while. A lot of people overthink it. As you learn more, and want more, there is some 'more compicated' stuff. But you can get started, and get lots of funtionality, with very little work, and almost no 'hard' stuff. From that standpoint I'd say there is similarity to DC. You can do the basics pretty quickly, and learn more for a lifetime.
Guys, Thanks for the feedback!
Dave - I believe I'll pass on that "address 00" idea for now, but thanx anyway for the tip!
MTennent wrote: ...All you have to do is make sure you have one or the other, but not both, active at the same time. You can do it manually, or install a switch to change over.
So I'll just disconnect the 2 wires from my CM20 and hook them up to the DCS100? Yeah, seems simple enough - even for me!
Vail and Southwestern wrote: What you don't want to do is try to have some of the layout DC and some DCC at the same time. ...
Come to think of it, that's exactly what the guy was doing when he ran into problems.
So - one mode or the other for a single op session...got it!
Now for another newbie question: About the DCC power source, can that be the AC output on an older [but still working] MRC Tech-II? Or should I buy a "professional" power supply from Tony's or Loy's? I don't intend to simultaneously run more than 2 trains, 3 or 4 locos max, during the first few months...
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
MTennent wrote: OK, let's see who has the most "dinosaurish" system.I have an original Big Boy, no upgrades of any kind, and one knob is missing off the controller. Mike Tennent
OK, let's see who has the most "dinosaurish" system.
I have an original Big Boy, no upgrades of any kind, and one knob is missing off the controller.
NorthCoast DCC since 1998. I bought my system 6 months after the club did, but prior to that we ran an old Mann-Made ctc system, I still have an encoder around here somewhere. It was small for its day, but still it was HUGE. It almost took a shoe horn to install it into an old wide body Athearn GP9!!
But now we are running a portable modular layout that is almost 60 x 100 now. A can't imagine what it would be like trying to adapt a dc cab system to a layout this size, where the size fluctuates from show to show!
While you are at it. Learn how to convert your engines, then offer your services (for a small fee) to other club members. Not only will you become the "expert", but you can make a little scratch to help finance your own efforts!
I found when our club was in the process of converting, I actually did a few installs "gratis" for some of our clubs older, more resistant members. Only asking that they supplied the engine and decoder. Once they got a controller in thier hands, the walls came down!
Sometimes its easier to convert the club member's loco than the member him(or her)self!!!!
Don't look to convert those 35 engine overnight either. I got my 70 or so done, but a lot of them got major overhauls along the way. Took me a couple of years. Convert the best ones first.
"About the DCC power source, can that be the AC output on an older [but still working] MRC Tech-II? Or should I buy a "professional" power supply from Tony's or Loy's? I don't intend to simultaneously run more than 2 trains, 3 or 4 locos max, during the first few months..."
Until last month, that's exactly what I did. In fact, with a Tech-II. The reason I changed was that I need to carry the Tech-II to train shows to run my display layout. ( I sell electronic stuff.) That's a bit of a bother, plus I forgot to pack it one weekend and had to buy a cheapie Atlas to fill in.
You're set to go, Dude!
MTennent wrote: Until last month, that's exactly what I did. In fact, with a Tech-II.
Great minds think alike <LOL>! This should be an interesting weekend. I have an Atlas Gold Series CW40-8 I can run to test the setup, but first I need to re-read those old Digitrax manuals to figure out what is what...
kbfcsme wrote: ... Sometimes its easier to convert the club member's loco than the member him(or her)self!!!! ...
CPeterson,
DecoderPro, which is open source freeware, available here: SourceForge.Net is an excellent computer interface that makes speed matching simple. Even without it, speed matching isn't too tough, just time consuming. Put two locomotives on the track, separated by about 1-2 feet, both facing the same direction. Get them both moving, then use Ops mode to adjust their CVs. Which CVs depends on how many speed steps the decoder can support. The wonderful thing about DecoderPro is you don't have to know the CVs, just move little sliders on the screen. Very simple to use. AND DecoderPro saves a copy of the CVs to a file, so you can use it to restore a decoder that is reset, and also to duplicate features from one engine to another easily.
CSX_road_slug wrote: Now for another newbie question: About the DCC power source, can that be the AC output on an older [but still working] MRC Tech-II? Or should I buy a "professional" power supply from Tony's or Loy's? I don't intend to simultaneously run more than 2 trains, 3 or 4 locos max, during the first few months...
The Tech II will work, but as the demand for power grows it will will fall short of being able to meet it and problems will develop. Usually manifests it self in the system shutting down for no good reason. The other issue will develop with running sound equipped locos which draw more power. For a DCC system to operate optimally it needs a power supply capable of supply 5 amps continously.
jktrains
As far as wiring for DC v DCC; It's the same in all cases. If you get a short circuit in DC, you are going to see the same thing with DCC. Either you messed up on your wiring, had an accident or you have a reverse loop. You can deal with those instances where you are running reverse loops or wyes the same as with DC or you can automate them. It's only a question of money.
The same practices are used in wiring in both cases. The right rail and left rail must be kept separated. The buss must be capable of handling the power output of the power supply, blocks help trouble shooting (and control in the case of DC) and short circuit protection must be sensitive enough to protect the equipment at both ends of the wire,
The major diferences between the two technologies is the ease and degree of automation, and the amount of control flexabilty you are comfortable with. If you can make your layout run with a few block switches and a dual throttle power supply, then DC is most likely the way to go . If you are running a single track main and a yard, then DCC will allow you to run one on the main line and one in/out of the yard onto the main with out too much thought and only having to remember train numbers.
Since I run transition era in trains and control systems, I feel that I can comment with some accurracy on both systems. I run some of coreless motors on older locomotives and decoders on al bunch of newer stuff, I also run some locomotives that are not DCC converted yet. I have not put decoders on my turnouts, as I feel that the old MK1 hand and track planning will put most TO's in easy reach. I'm not scared of either technology; just realistic in what my needs are. My layout is only 11' long, so the necessity for wired or radio remote control is not an issue (I need the exercise).
I have nicely matched sets of DC and DCC locomotive consists. With the DC, I purchased pairs of FT A/B sets from IM that perform flawlessly as well as a set of Kato PA/B/A's for the CZ. For DCC, I have FM trainmasters, GP38's, H16-44's, dash8-40bw's and SD80's, SD70MAC's and M's that run great together after tweaking some CV's.
My steam roster consists of a bunch of CC 4-8-4's and 2-10-2's all DCC. A few B'mann class J Spectrums, LL mallets (its a N&W thing), MDC and brass stuff that will never be DCC. We won't talk about the Berkshires.
As I said in the DC topic, sometimes I push the cars with my finger, what does this make me? I flip a DPDT switch and I have the choice and functionality of either system. Tonight I was running the DMIR Yellowstone with 45 coal hoppers (anyone got a 100 ore cars for sale?) doing about 35 SMPH and a N&W class J fast freight of 25 MTL cars at about 100 SMPH, with the Clinchfield Challenger making noise on the siding. Tomorrow it might be an intermodal and some roadrailers passing each other on DCC. Or maybe the CZ will make a pass through Podunk.
Anyone contemplating the difference bebtween DC and DCC, and how each will meet their needs, has a personal decision to make, based on the unique needs and comfort of the individual.
jktrains wrote: The Tech II will work, but as the demand for power grows it will will fall short of being able to meet it and problems will develop. Usually manifests it self in the system shutting down for no good reason. The other issue will develop with running sound equipped locos which draw more power. For a DCC system to operate optimally it needs a power supply capable of supply 5 amps continously.
JK, I was planning to connect my Tech2's 14.5 VAC output to a Digitrax DCS100 "combo" command station/booster, rated at 5 amps. According to Tony's Booster Requirements chart, one of these guys can power 10 to 15 trains (depending on each loco's current draw). Would a sound-equipped unit count as 2 engines -or more?
CSX_road_slug wrote: jktrains wrote: The Tech II will work, but as the demand for power grows it will will fall short of being able to meet it and problems will develop. Usually manifests it self in the system shutting down for no good reason. The other issue will develop with running sound equipped locos which draw more power. For a DCC system to operate optimally it needs a power supply capable of supply 5 amps continously.JK, I was planning to connect my Tech2's 14.5 VAC output to a Digitrax DCS100 "combo" command station/booster, rated at 5 amps. According to Tony's Booster Requirements chart, one of these guys can power 10 to 15 trains (depending on each loco's current draw). Would a sound-equipped unit count as 2 engines -or more?
There are 2 issues that might arise. First, I don't believe the TechII AC output is rated at five amps. I had friend who initially tried to run his DCC using the output from a Hogger power pack. He kept experience various problems. When he check with the local Digitrax guru he was told the problem was too little amps. The system is design for a 5amp input. While you may not need 5 amps of output, having too little input can still cause problems.
The second issue revolves around using sound locos. If you have too many sound locos in a power district and a short occurs the DCS100 will not be able to reset. A sound loco has a high inrush of current at start up. Too many of these and the DCS100 reads it as a short and shuts down. It continues cycling this way until a enough sound locos are removed to solve the problem. I'd guess that with few amps, this problems might occur with few sound locos in the district.
All good points, jk. I should clarify that I run N scale, no sound decoders, so the Tech-II was up to it.
I think it'll do for Ken to get his feet wet right now, but a dedicated power supply, especially if he envisions sound chips, will be a near future investment.
MTennent wrote: All good points, jk. I should clarify that I run N scale, no sound decoders, so the Tech-II was up to it. I think it'll do for Ken to get his feet wet right now, but a dedicated power supply, especially if he envisions sound chips, will be a near future investment.
Glad I live within driving distance of MB Klein's! I only hope their website isn't lying when it says they have 4 PS515 units in stock...
Well, it doesn't look like I qualify to be in the DCC Club after all!
I tried connecting the command station to a few pieces of test track (1 for main and the other for programming) so I could test everything independently of the layout. But in spite of the new 5amp power supply and fresh batteries [CMOS & throttle], it's acting weird. Not doing anything like the manual says its supposed to be doing. A strange light is flashing on the throttle and the manual doesn't even describe what it is (not listed in the index). Heck, I can't even understand 75% of whats in the manual or the Digitrax website!
Looks like I bit off more than I can chew...
CSX_road_slug wrote:I tried connecting the command station to a few pieces of test track ... it's acting weird. Not doing anything like the manual says its supposed to be doing. A strange light is flashing on the throttle and the manual doesn't even describe what it is (not listed in the index).
Heck, I can't even understand 75% of whats in the manual or the Digitrax website!
Track voltage question:
Should track voltage be set different for HO and N scales? What voltage is recommended for each?
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jwils1 wrote:Should track voltage be set different for HO and N scales? What voltage is recommended for each?
I haven't run DCC on N-scale, but when I did have N-scale I ran it on the same power supplies I used for HO.
To answer your question directly I don't know that there is a "recommended" voltage. Originally they were designed to run on 12V.
CSX_road_slug wrote: Well, it doesn't look like I qualify to be in the DCC Club after all! I tried connecting the command station to a few pieces of test track (1 for main and the other for programming) so I could test everything independently of the layout. But in spite of the new 5amp power supply and fresh batteries [CMOS & throttle], it's acting weird. Not doing anything like the manual says its supposed to be doing. A strange light is flashing on the throttle and the manual doesn't even describe what it is (not listed in the index). Heck, I can't even understand 75% of whats in the manual or the Digitrax website!Looks like I bit off more than I can chew...
This a common and often cited shortcoming with Digitrax - poorly written manuals for both systems, decoders and components. The other common misbeliefs purchasers have is that their LHS will be able to help them solve problems and that since Digitrax is only a phone call away, I'll just call them. CSX_road_slug, you found out way these are misbeliefs exist. The LHS only sells the stuff, they don't really know it well enough to service it; it after hours, now what do I do? Are you going to take time off from work to call D during business hours so you can be at the layout when call. This is why I stress to people the need to have an easily understood manual.
See other discussion DCC threads regarding the manuals issue.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
CSX_road_slug
What throttle do you have with your system. a DT100 or DT300? I'm thinking that it is probably the DT100? When you connected the system per the instructions for the initial setup did everything power up the way that is described including what is supposed to appear on the throttle display? In the manual it describes getting the whole thing setup correctly and checked out before connecting to any track. Did this part go according to the instructions.
The quick installation guide (section 4) http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/Chief%20manual%20DT100.PDF is actually fairly simple to follow along, so I would go back to square 1 and carfully go through that part with no track connections as they describe.
If this is the DT100 the LED is described on page 37. Needless to say that this implies that you are in a more advanced mode than just the simple setup.
Dave,
A week ago Monday I sent 13 Frames to Aztec. On friday of the same week, I received milled frames in the mail.
That's Central New York to Nevada and back in 5 days!! Pretty darn fast if you ask me! Now I just need to buy my decoders.
Here is what happens:
You take apart your engine, send in just the bare frame ( no clips, nuts or bolts ), and Aztec sends you back a frame that he has already milled. He then mills your frame and puts it on the shelf untill someone else sends him a frame to be milled. That way you get the fastest turnaround time.
The milling job on the frame is superb! You just can't do anywheres near this quality work yourself with a dremel.
I believe that if you send him a frame that is already hacked up a bit, you will get your exact frame back milled the rest of the way- Check with John at Aztec 1st.
The customer service is great too. I had questions about some of my frames ( Atlas GP-7's and GP-9's ). I was confused because I didn't know if I had the early or late version of the GP-7's. I emailed John @Aztec and he emailed me back with my answers to my questions. Not only that, but he also called me to make sure that I understood the difference ( he went into great detail for me ).
I highly recommend this service that Aztec Provides.
Craig
jktrains wrote: ... This is why I stress to people the need to have an easily understood manual. See other discussion DCC threads regarding the manuals issue.
simon1966 wrote: ...What throttle do you have with your system. a DT100 or DT300? I'm thinking that it is probably the DT100?
simon1966 wrote:When you connected the system per the instructions for the initial setup did everything power up the way that is described including what is supposed to appear on the throttle display? In the manual it describes getting the whole thing setup correctly and checked out before connecting to any track. Did this part go according to the instructions.
simon1966 wrote: The quick installation guide (section 4) http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/Chief%20manual%20DT100.PDF is actually fairly simple to follow along,... If this is the DT100 the LED is described on page 37.
simon1966 wrote: Needless to say that this implies that you are in a more advanced mode than just the simple setup.
BTW I did try looking at the Digitrax online support database, but that was just as confusing [to me] as the manual. One of the experts from the Yahoo digitrax group emailed me and has helped me clear up the 'Exp' mystery, though I still can't get it into 'run' mode.
The "silver bullet" solution would be if I could find another DigiGuru who lives within a 30-minute drive, and I could simply bring my stuff [with test tracks] to his house. All my mrr friends now are using either Lenz or NCE systems, I have a severe case of Buyers Remose.
[LATER EDIT:] OK, I somehow lucked-into pressing the correct sequence of buttons so I can test-run an analog loco in both directions. Nice! But for the life of me, I don't remember what I did, except it wasn't the exact sequence described in my manual. Otherwise, I could create a cheatsheet for future reference...
That is good news CSX_road_slug!
The DT100 is not a throttle held with a great deal of affection even by die-hard Digitrax users. Your model of Chief has been superseded twice since 2000 with throttles that are a a lot more intuitive. The current DT400 is a real pleasure to use. The other thing you should be aware of is that in 2005 Digitrax announced that they could no longer repair DT100's due to the unavailability of some key components. The good news from your perspective is that any of the new throttles will work with your system. Or if you choose to move away from Digitrax there is ready market for DCS 100 command station/boosters so you should be able to sell it without any trouble.
Quite true, Simon - I've concluded that a DT400 is a must-have. I can't possibly enjoy DCC operation with such a user-hostile device as the DT100.
Thank you everybody who responded!