HAND LAYING SWITCHES is for those who want to spend the time to get better results.
For them, the REWARDS are worth the EFFORT. Not so for those in a hurry or want to do other things with their time.
I've made turnouts from a jig , installed kits using an NMRA gage, and also used different prefab products - when they work - (My criteria is 'what does the job').
When a hand laid swich is spiked, one scarcely hears the wheels 'click'. Prefab switches cannot maintain these tolerances - and still be profitable. Metal has a memory that ignores plastic moulds.
Correctly spaced 'wing' rails allow the wheels to smoothly traverse a flangeway gap without bouncing, while some Atlas owners file down the frog because it appears "too high".
A correctly spaced. wing rail, flangeway, and guard rail, for RP-25 wheels will reject out of gauge wheels, as will Proto 88 flangeways reject RP-25 flanges. Who's at fault?
Easier to loosen the specs and prevent returns from unhappy customers. It's called "Volume".
Joe-daddy
Actually, hand-laying turnouts does NOT require craftsman-like skills. I've never been able to do precision work with my hands first shot. My first attempt at assembling a Silver Streak plastic reefer kit (one step above Athearn BB at the time) was pitiful. I'm still scared to take an airbrush to paint or weather a car or engine.
So I was scared when I tried my first handlaid turnout. All I had was some code 70 rail, ties, spikes, needle nose pliers, a 40 watt soldering iron, solder, a couple of small files, a hacksaw blade, a couple of 3 point gauges, an NMRA gauge, a piece of PC board for the throw "tie", and Jack Work's article on how to lay a turnout in the April '63 MR. But I realized as I got going that the worst that could happen was that I would have to rip out some rail and ties, and replace it with a commercial turnout. Your first handlaid turnout will likely run better than any commercial turnouts out of the box - mine did. The difference is the later ones will look prettier than the 1st effort.
Like others, and as in the article, I simply filled the flangeways and frog with solder and sawed it out right to spec with the hacksaw blade (perfect for HO).
Using the Fast Tracks jigs is even more of a guarantee of success the first time.
Handlaid track isn't for everybody. Handlaying track is soothing for me; for others it is frustrating. You do need patience to stay at it until it is right. In my case, I've had to replace a couple of ties (incredibly, none in turnouts) because there wasn't enough solid wood left to spike into due to repeated adjustments. But this is the care you should take for laying any track. This is why I don't have derailments, and hastily laid commercial track does.
The point of all these words is that almost all model railroaders have sufficient skill to hand lay track if they want to. Give it a whirl on an upfront spur where smaller rail and wood ties would look really nice. Try a custom turnout where it will help your track flow a lot smoother than the limited geometry of commercial turnouts allow. Then you will know if you want to hand lay more track, and you will know you can do it, too.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
nobullchitbids wrote: When you go to MR for the Work article, also pick up "Can Derailments Be Banished -- Forever?" from the July 1963 issue. And (if you are exploring using scale wheels) make sure you get ahold of the pioneering articles by Paul Dolkos concerning changes which need to be made in the track standards.
When you go to MR for the Work article, also pick up "Can Derailments Be Banished -- Forever?" from the July 1963 issue. And (if you are exploring using scale wheels) make sure you get ahold of the pioneering articles by Paul Dolkos concerning changes which need to be made in the track standards.
Don't know about the July 1963 article but that rang a bell. I'm suprised my memory was this good. Also see:
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrr020201.html
"Banish derailments forever. Senior editor Jim Hediger, explains a dozen easy tune-up tricks he uses to obtain top performance on his well-known HO scale Ohio Southern. "
And in my opinion, the appearance advantage of Atlas Code 83 (vs 100) is completely worth any of its' potential disadvantages. It's what I use. To me it's the cross-section of the 100 that's objectionable, more than the height. The head is too tall and out of proportion to the web.
I'm leaning more and more towards C83 and Atlas #8 turnouts. And it's taht combo wich does it. Both sides have presented good arguments for there case but this is propably the one that will be the one for me. If there had been c100 #8 turnouts I think C100 would have won. Well I have still to put in my order so I guess I will think some more about this. That fast track jig sure is tempting.
Magnus
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
FYI: There are #8 turnouts in C100 made by Shinohara -- I own several of them, and reliability is excellent, especially after one champfers the points. I don't know if they still are made, but it might be possible to find a supply on eBay.
Now the $64,000 question: Aside from passenger-track crossovers, what do you need #8s for? Unless you are running 86-foot, hi-cube boxcars, that may be overkill and a great space waster.
The radius of a number-six turnout is on the order of 40 inches; a number-five is about 28 inches. Number-eights are up around 108 inches. For comparison, my minimum mainline radius is 42 inches, and I have two U.P. Nines (4-12-2s). There wasn't an engine on the B&O which, in HO, wouldn't make it round a 40-inch radius curve. The only thing wrong with a number-six is that it has too much of an s-curve in it for full-length passenger cars, so you do need 8s for crossovers. And for looks. But, if looks are that important, why are we having this discussion?
nobull,Another reason to use Shinohara No. 8's is that, back 10 years ago, they did not short out when using DCC because the angle was much less than a No. 6. Now with "DCC Friendly" switches from Shinohara, that's not such a big deal. But my club tested many kinds of equipment over all Shinohara switches, and only the No. 8's did not short with big, rigid steam engines or electrics.
BTW, about the internal radius of switches, the NMRA calls it like this (part 11 of the diagram):
http://www.nmra.com/standards/rp12_3.html
No. 4 - 15"No. 5 - 26"No. 6 - 43"No. 8 - 67"No. 10 - 117"
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Lillen wrote: I'm leaning more and more towards C83 and Atlas #8 turnouts. And it's that combo wich does it. ... If there had been c100 #8 turnouts I think C100 would have won. ... Well I have still to put in my order so I guess I will think some more about this. That fast track jig sure is tempting. - Magnus
I'm leaning more and more towards C83 and Atlas #8 turnouts. And it's that combo wich does it. ... If there had been c100 #8 turnouts I think C100 would have won. ... Well I have still to put in my order so I guess I will think some more about this. That fast track jig sure is tempting. - Magnus
Magnus: You are being too overcautious here - so much so, that you probably will do nothing. There will ALWAYS be something new, around the corner, to justify waiting. Your justification is called 'not making a mistake'.
Example: "I'm leaning more and more towards C83 and Atlas #8 turnouts": What piece of equipment have you ever owned that required a #8 turnout?
I've had one - a 4-6-6-2 $1600 brass Mallet - and everything else went through #6s. Are you planning on buying one?
Meanwhile prices go up - like Petroleum.
Far more important is: (1) the size of your ROOM, which determines the size of your layout; (2) The RADIUS of your curves determines the type of equipment you can run; and (3) the method of CONTROL determines the electrical & mechanical characteristics (Block control or DCC) for running.
Less inportant are brands and codes because (are you ready?) they ALL work. (Look at all the divirgent opinions). 'Does DCC do more than DC? (Yes) - and it costs more.
SIMPLY PUT it's Performance and Appearance VS. Cost. What's your priorities?
Shall we guess?
My mistake (I was writing from memory); Paul is right. There is a point in a turnout (which, properly laid, consists of both curved and straight sections) where the radius constricts to the permissible radius. If the turnout is laid to NMRA specifications, it will have this radius; however, many commercial turnouts have variations in them, so this minimum number can be a little higher or lower.
My memory does tell me that the average radius of a number-eight is north of 100 inches, but that counts the straight sections as well.
Don the reason why I'm waiting is cash. Not decision. I don't want to pull money out funds so I'm waiting for the next payment coming in. If I should change my mind during this wait I will order something else bu as it stands it's c83. I like #8's because of how they look. I also run a majority of Walthers heavyweights on my layout and I think it looks better with #8 then #6. Have nothing to do with insecurity. To wait for a few weeks before placing an order that will take between 6-12 weeks minimum to arrive and cost me 2000$ is not insecurity. In my world I don't think it's wrong to contemplate what to buy before I place the order, I think it's smart. I'm going to have to live with my choise of track for the next few years. What does a couple of weeks mean then? Also I'm checking out deals on Peco track over here in Sweden and I still haven't recived all the stores prices yet.
I know they all work. That is not the point! Most things work. Are you telling me there is no difrence. Checking stuff up on how diffrent things are is not a bad thing and doesn't mean I assume that only one brand will work. I just like doing research.
About room sizes. My layout is planned at this stage. It will use the largest curves possible. Do you know why. (Are your ready?) Because even though 24" will work 36" will look better. Wich is the reason why I have decided on #8.
"Magnus: You are being too overcautious here - so much so, that you probably will do nothing. There will ALWAYS be something new, around the corner, to justify waiting. Your justification is called 'not making a mistake'. "
You know nothing about me or my personel life. I have spent rougly 4000$ the last month so I do not believe I don't do nothing and just wait. I just do things in a certain order. Why do I order my track last. Because I live near the polarcircle and the temperature in my trainroom is the same as the outdoor enviroment. I do not want to lay track in minus 20 degrees celsius. But hey. If I wasn't so insecure I might be able to warm my hands with a bit of selfconfidence?
"SIMPLY PUT it's Performance and Appearance VS. Cost. What's your priorities?"
No there is one more thing. I live in Sweden. Certain things are not available loccaly for me as it is for you. So AVAILABILITY is also a issue.
OK, I'm going to apologize in advance, this ends in a rant...
Nobull:
You're referring to the "substitution radius" which more determines how a train as a whole negotiates the turnout. (Or how it will look going thru it.) As opposed to the actual limiting minimum radius. Also this # shows how much less important the frog # is when considered against the minimum radius of the rest of the layout.
#4: 29" R
#5: 44" R
#6: 56" R
#8: 110" R
BTW, Is the Atlas c83 #4 Custom Line a #4-1/2, as the c100's are? If so, that probably makes it acceptable for all but crossovers, full-length pass equip & 86' modern freight. IOW, certainly acceptable for spurs.
Don:
Take it easy on him. He's trying to make the right choice and not have regrets halfway thru construction. After all the rebuttal of the c100 here he's probably gone off and studied a 1000 photo's of various MRR's! He's coming to realize the difference in appearance of c83 and how much more realistic it looks, especially when combined with #8 turnouts.
Are you saying that just because the equipment used doesn't technically warrant #8's that you wouldn't use them if you could fit them, at least in up front locations? Sure you would, you'd probably handlay #10's.
He's developing an eye for detail, GOOD. Better now than 10 months into construction...
As for everyone jumping on Joe-Daddy:
IMHO c100 when properly weathered and ballasted is surely passable. Is c83 more realistic? Of course it is. In most cases c70 is probably the preferred size rail to maintain scale to the prototype mainline, but that will really start tapping your wallet. (As will any track from ME, Shinohara, and Peco)
There's something called the "law of diminishing returns" which I feel applies here. If I could relate it to stereo/home-theater equipment: Spend $100 on a surround sound receiver and you get a piece of crap. Lets call it a 1 on a scale of 1 -10. Spend $700 - $800 and you've achieved a vast improvement, high fidelity even, maybe a 7 or 8. Spend $3500 - $5000 and get a 9. Dump $10,000 (or more) on individual components to get your performance to a 10. Do you think that's worth it? I'll stay with lucky #7 every time. Most bang for the buck baby!
To relate it to this thread: Atlas c100 would probably score about a 5 or 6, Atlas c83 a 7, with ME, Shinohara, etc. at an 8 or 9, and finally handlaid c70 a solid 10 out of 10.
This hobby is filled with compromises. We're forced to make them at every turn. Why suddenly is nobody willing to accept them when it comes to the track?
Does it take 2-3x the time (or more) to handlay, as opposed to installing pre-fab track? C'mon, lets be serious here.... BTW, how much are those Fast-Tracks jigs again??? The time and effort invested in handlaying is IMO worth plenty even if you don't want to put a dollar value on it.
Also I think the man said it was his first layout, which will most likely be dismantled when he attains more room in the not so distant future. What exactly are the chances of salvaging hand laid track? ‘Cause it would surely make me want to cry to lose all that effort!
Secondly if he attempts this and finds it beyond his skill level (or just gets frustrated by the apparent lack of progress) isn't he far more likely to throw in the towel on the whole hobby?
Handlaying is an art, and its appearance and reliability are greatly appreciated and respected. But this is just not something that should be attempted by everyone. Did anyone see that thread about a certain member who had a friend that was, how shall I say this, a disaster waiting to happen? I've seen enough posts on this forum that would indicate it would be prudent not to give immediate encouragement for everyone to go for the gold right out of the gate. Actually I feel it's down right irresponsible...
Sorry again about the long post, but I had to get that off my chest.
cwn3 wrote:OK, I'm going to apologize in advance, this ends in a rant...Nobull:You're referring to the "substitution radius" which more determines how a train as a whole negotiates the turnout. (Or how it will look going thru it.) As opposed to the actual limiting minimum radius. Also this # shows how much less important the frog # is when considered against the minimum radius of the rest of the layout. #4: 29" R#5: 44" R#6: 56" R#8: 110" RBTW, Is the Atlas c83 #4 Custom Line a #4-1/2, as the c100's are? If so, that probably makes it acceptable for all but crossovers, full-length pass equip & 86' modern freight. IOW, certainly acceptable for spurs.Don:Take it easy on him. He's trying to make the right choice and not have regrets halfway thru construction. After all the rebuttal of the c100 here he's probably gone off and studied a 1000 photo's of various MRR's! He's coming to realize the difference in appearance of c83 and how much more realistic it looks, especially when combined with #8 turnouts.Are you saying that just because the equipment used doesn't technically warrant #8's that you wouldn't use them if you could fit them, at least in up front locations? Sure you would, you'd probably handlay #10's.He's developing an eye for detail, GOOD. Better now than 10 months into construction...As for everyone jumping on Joe-Daddy:IMHO c100 when properly weathered and ballasted is surely passable. Is c83 more realistic? Of course it is. In most cases c70 is probably the preferred size rail to maintain scale to the prototype mainline, but that will really start tapping your wallet. (As will any track from ME, Shinohara, and Peco)There's something called the "law of diminishing returns" which I feel applies here. If I could relate it to stereo/home-theater equipment: Spend $100 on a surround sound receiver and you get a piece of crap. Lets call it a 1 on a scale of 1 -10. Spend $700 - $800 and you've achieved a vast improvement, high fidelity even, maybe a 7 or 8. Spend $3500 - $5000 and get a 9. Dump $10,000 (or more) on individual components to get your performance to a 10. Do you think that's worth it? I'll stay with lucky #7 every time. Most bang for the buck baby!To relate it to this thread: Atlas c100 would probably score about a 5 or 6, Atlas c83 a 7, with ME, Shinohara, etc. at an 8 or 9, and finally handlaid c70 a solid 10 out of 10.This hobby is filled with compromises. We're forced to make them at every turn. Why suddenly is nobody willing to accept them when it comes to the track?Does it take 2-3x the time (or more) to handlay, as opposed to installing pre-fab track? C'mon, lets be serious here.... BTW, how much are those Fast-Tracks jigs again??? The time and effort invested in handlaying is IMO worth plenty even if you don't want to put a dollar value on it. Also I think the man said it was his first layout, which will most likely be dismantled when he attains more room in the not so distant future. What exactly are the chances of salvaging hand laid track? ‘Cause it would surely make me want to cry to lose all that effort!Secondly if he attempts this and finds it beyond his skill level (or just gets frustrated by the apparent lack of progress) isn't he far more likely to throw in the towel on the whole hobby?Handlaying is an art, and its appearance and reliability are greatly appreciated and respected. But this is just not something that should be attempted by everyone. Did anyone see that thread about a certain member who had a friend that was, how shall I say this, a disaster waiting to happen? I've seen enough posts on this forum that would indicate it would be prudent not to give immediate encouragement for everyone to go for the gold right out of the gate. Actually I feel it's down right irresponsible...Sorry again about the long post, but I had to get that off my chest.P.S. You tell'em Magnus!
P.S. You tell'em Magnus!
Shock, Awe. . . . What Charlie said, YEA!, Ditto,
I think it ironic, the experts beat Magnus into submission, going for the most authenticly sized rail and turnout one can possibly push on a newbie, only to get slammed by the same for being too unreasonably obsessed with authenticity. Amazing.
As Charlie said so eloquently, this was my original point anyway! This thread should be bronzed, it is destined to be a classic!
Peace to those who seek it.
Joe Daddy hisself
I am impressed with Magnus's reserve and diplomacy when responding to his critics and goads. I have never felt that I was dealing with a naive or stupid man when I responded to his requests for assistance, but some replies here have almost seemed like bullying. To his credit, he responded with grace, equanimity, and with a resolve to stay true to his overarching plan while still looking for ways to make his dollar (kroner) fly a bit further.
Let us agree that Code 100 is about as bad a representation of scale track as three-rail tinplate is. It really looks decent when properly ballasted and painted up...only a knowledgeable and at the same time critical person would go to the extent of pointing out this pseudo-problem to a fellow modeller ...unless the question was invited with specific reference to looks.
Instead, Magnus has, several times, alluded to his isolation, the extremes of climate, and to the fact that he is not flush with cash due to his prime focus of continuing his post-grad education.
We should give him credit for knowing the differences in frog numbers, how many of each type he will need, and why.
Thanks for the suport guys. It warms my heart. I find it kind of fun that I'm now being bashed for going more accurate from the very same person who bashed med for the oposite. Quite humorous. But I do think this entire thread shows a deeper problem. Often we read about the problems of recruiting more people to the hobby. These kind of responses hardly help someone to decide to invest 1000's $ into a new hobby. On the other side. The people on this thread wich have contributed with an open mind are also the exact kind of people that makes ME want to get involved.
I think it's sad that we, within this small comunity and who all share a common passion can not accept the difrences amongst us. We should welcome diversity and newcomers "naive" questions and try to help them. Just as many have done here. Crandalls generous offer is among the things that I will remember for a long time. It's also the attitude that I will tell people about when I discuss Americans and how they are. Generous, helping people that care about there fellow man.
So in conclusion, thanks EVERYONE for your positive input.
P.s Crandell, maybe I'm just to stupid to understand there goads and bullying!
In reference to the paragraph that rates the different styles of track, I think that once the rails and ties are weathered on code 83, 70, and even 55 ME and Shinohara track, they look much better than handlaid due to the scale-sized spikes and tie plates (I've used both methods in the past).
cwn3:
Well, if you're going to use 'logic' here, I give up.
Code 100 vs Code 83: On the plus side, code 100 has .017 inches more rail to display your best weathering technique :-)
Seriously, for a first layout, to get yourself going and get some trains running in a reasonable time frame and for reasonable money, I'm really happy with my Atlas Code 83. I'm making good progress painting it. Then onto scenery (which I've never tried before). I'd like to create a compressed stonedust looking yard area. Then balasting, which I expect to be much more fun than painting (yuck!). I'll post some photos when I get there. I could live with code 100, but the code 83 is easy to find and not much more to money to buy. Try a few lengths of flex and a couple turnouts as an experiment - a test track of science!
Jim
ON30:
You may be right here. It becomes very tough making the call between a 9 and a 10. Besides the detail of the spikes & tie plates, there's also the size and spacing of the ties themselves, which contributes to the overall authentic appearance of the track. You must also take into account the free-flowing nature of handlaid track. I dunno... (I was also trying to be gracious to all those who put so much effort into their handlaid trackwork.)
In any case, the object of the post was more to identify the Atlas c100/83 "cost effective" camp from the more devout "spend whatever it takes" peoples, and whether the returns you get on you efforts are worth the input. (Be it time or money) Like I said, #7 gets my vote every time. I think it's the choice that achieves a reasonable level of accuracy, while not breaking the bank.
Hey don't get me wrong, there's definitely a difference. There are only 2 questions: Can you see it? And can you afford it? Also, I see no need to belittle those who are just starting out in the hobby, and/or simply cannot afford to pay twice as much (or more) for track. I think it best to encourage them, and advise them of how they can make the best choice they can afford. (Or make the best of what they have already chosen.)
If we go back to the beginning, this thread started in a somewhat different vein; "Is there a good reason besides looks to get c83?" And it's gone to a whole different level...
LILLEN: You speak better English than I do Swedish. The only Swedish words I know are"Svenska" und "Flicka". I have more problems with your 'Fextrack'.
I'm looking around for some flextrack I came to the conclusion that C83 is much more expensive then C100. Why is that and what are the benefits of modelling with C83 over c100? .... Is there a good reason besides looks to get c83? -Lillen
... and 5 1/2 pages of questions & answers later ...
(1) I'm leaning more and more towards C83 and Atlas #8 turnouts. And it's that combo which does it. ... "this is probably the one that will be the one for me. (2) If there had been c100 #8 turnouts I think C100 would have won. (3) Well I have still to put in my order so I guess I will think some more about this. (4) That fast track jig sure is tempting.
(The numbers are mine): (1) First off Magnus I agree with you. The Atlas code 83 #8 is the best Atlas switch - if for only the reason it's the only turnout they make that doesn't have a black frog.
Lillen, you asked a legitemate queston. You got six pages of answers. No one has bashed you - except to ask a legitemate question.
"probably... "if there'd have been...jig is sure tempting...I will think some more..." If this same inquiry, is posted a year from now, WHY will I not be surprised?
Some people walk the walk. Some just talk the talk.
Don Gibson wrote: Lillen, you asked a legitemate queston. You got six pages of answers. No one has bashed you - except to ask a legitemate question.
Don Gibson wrote: Magnus: You are being too overcautious here - so much so, that you probably will do nothing. There will ALWAYS be something new, around the corner, to justify waiting. Your justification is called 'not making a mistake'.
Is this a question? I don't think so.
Don Gibson wrote: "probably... "if there'd have been...jig is sure tempting...I will think some more..." If this same inquiry, is posted a year from now, WHY will I not be surprised?Some people walk the walk. Some just talk the talk.
Is this a question?
No, they are insults directed me. When you say "Some people walk the walk. Some just talk the talk. " and assume that I'm one of those your full of it. You know nothing about me. Or what you know is nowhere near enough to make that statement. What do you want from me? As soon as you said what you think I should do I should do it? I'm I not entitled to think about a decision for a few weeks before I decide? In my opinion one shall decide after having considered the options. Not because someone on a forum tells me to with childish remarks about walk the walk and so on. That might work upon the people you hang around, I don't know but I do NOT buy stuff for that reason. Pathetic.
Further more. You couldn't have been more wrong. I have already placed my order. I decided on c83 from Atlas. But that might just be because of you and your encouraging attitude......
And for the walk the walk. Here is a sample.... i.e not all of the stuff that I have ordered the last month. If that is not enough then I'm sorry Don, I guess I can't satesfy your walk and will continue to be all talk:
25 Heavyweights from Walthers
24 proto war emergency hoppers
72 Walthers ore cars
100 pieces of flextrack
40 turnouts
60 metres of WS roadbed
1 CMX clean machine
buildings and structures from walthers for about 500$
1 PCM Big Boy
1 PCM 2-8-8-2
1 BLI F7 AB
2 Proto 2k E8/9 AB
1 Bachmann 2-8-0
1 Bachmann 2-10-0
Plus some more stuff.
All the passenger cars are lit and all the engines have dcc and sound.
What else do you want me to order so that I can prove that I walk the walk?
So once again. Thanks for the help everyone. Both sides had good arguments and presented there cases well. it was #8 that did it. Otherwise I think the code 100 people had a stronger case. But that is just me.
Lillen wrote:So once again. Thanks for the help everyone. Both sides had good arguments and presented there cases well. it was #8 that did it. Otherwise I think the code 100 people had a stronger case. But that is just me.Magnus
Magnus,
Your English is quite good, and your comprehension and understanding of it is even better. Regarding the bashing and insluts that were hurled your way, it is regretful that we do not chose our words more carefullly. I'll not offer excuse for our collective behaviour, but be assured, you have my apology.
Perhaps one day we'll have the opportunity to meet face to face and enjoy a good chat.
Do, please stay engaged with the forum. With all sincerity, please do post some pictures where we can see your work.
Best regards.
Joe
Hi Joe,
You have nothing to apolagize about! I think your posts were great and you were a very good represntetive for "your" side. As I said, had there been c100 #8's I would have gone for them. It would be great fun to meet some people fromt his forum one day. There is a lot of really terrific people here who have my greatest respect. About my English, I read and understand english fluently. I mostly read english literature and I read about a book every three days. When I write there is more problems. I think the internet actually damages my written english more then helps. Some of the other forums have a LOT of really bad spelling and that rubs off. This forum on the other hand have some excellent languague so I hope that will help.
I will get some pictures soon. Right now I can not get in to my train room because the snow is actuall y blocking the door so high that I can not get in there. But spring have arrived and soon I will get in there. Right now there isn't much to look at. But I will put up some pics as soon as I can. This year I'm going to redo my entire layout and move parts of my old one in to my kids bedroom. It is the part with finished terrain that the kids will get. My son loves trains.
You go Magnus!
Don I thought you gave up?
Magnus, I assume since you've ordered track that you have a firm plan. Why don't you post it, Don might like to rag on that some too...
Seriously though, those #8's do take up quite a bit of room. I hope you worked your plan out in CAD.
BTW, Good choice & a nice selection of equipment too!
P.S. Joe, are you apologizing on the part of all of America? (I don't recall you being offensive.)
I have made my track plan old style only. I.e pen and paper. But since my layout is based mosly around looking at the trains running and some moderate switching only the layout plan is pretty simple. I will se if I can scan it. But I have given more space to each turnout then will be required. Most of the turnouts will be on the industry parts of the layout and the yard.
I would describe the layout as basically three loops that will give the aperance that the train leaves the layout and then returns again. I decided on the run around due to the fact that I don't want two turntables at the moment. I will still operate as point to point but it will go around the layout in the proccess. It's also because I want my kids to be able to have fun with it and somehow I don't think they would enjoy a true point to point. The mainline will be 45 meters and the room it self is 3*5 metres. I have already built parts of it with #4's and #6's turnout where it needed to be a bit tighter and only shorter hoppers will operate.
Since this is my second attempt I'm also a bit realistic. I have accepted the fact that I will be forced to modify the layout as I go if something doesn't work. Thats also the reason that I have kept my layout plan very simple. I think it's easier to ad then to reduce the plan if I find something I want to try. I also view this entire layout as an experiment so handlaying is not in the cards at this moment. But, Crandells tip about the jig is tempting and I will perhaps order one and try I out if only to have something to do during winther.
Thanks everyone, Magnus
"Lillen, you asked a legitemate queston. You got six pages of answers. No one has bashed you - except to ask a legitemate question". - Don Gibson
LILLEN:
Sorry, but after 5.5 pages I started to have some doubts (Scratch 6). Do I remember you having a a Garage, Shed, or unheated room for trains, somewhere near the Artic Circle?
"The ...temperature difrences between -30 and +45 degrees celsius".
I live in an area known for 'reasonably mild winters (45th parallel) but we only have less than 1O wks/yr.that I do not have to heat up my train room to work or operate.
Perhaps the thought of an unheated train room one could visit maybe 5 weeks a year - problematical - and prohibitive for any sizable cash outlay.
It doesn't make sense. and if it doesn't make sense, it raises some doubts - (because it doesn't make sense). Your recent "purchase" of 122 cars, and $1700 of track - not withstanding.
Lillen, perhaps I'm the only one here, that feels you're 'yanking' our collective chains, but I do. I'm sorry.
Re:"Walking the walk or talking the talk" you asked if this "was a question?" - No.
"Don I thought you gave up? " cwn3
Don Gibson wrote:"Lillen, you asked a legitemate queston. You got six pages of answers. No one has bashed you - except to ask a legitemate question". - Don Gibson LILLEN:Sorry, but after 5.5 pages I started to have some doubts (Scratch 6). Do I remember you having a a Garage, Shed, or unheated room for trains, somewhere near the Artic Circle?"The ...temperature difrences between -30 and +45 degrees celsius". I live in an area known for 'reasonably mild winters (45th parallel) but we only have less than 1O wks/yr.that I do not have to heat up my train room to work or operate. Perhaps the thought of an unheated train room one could visit maybe 5 weeks a year - problematical - and prohibitive for any sizable cash outlay. It doesn't make sense. and if it doesn't make sense, it raises some doubts - (because it doesn't make sense). Your recent "purchase" of 122 cars, and $1700 of track - not withstanding. Lillen, perhaps I'm the only one here, that feels you're 'yanking' our collective chains, but I do. I'm sorry.Re:"Walking the walk or talking the talk" you asked if this "was a question?" - No."Don I thought you gave up? " cwn3 I shall. I shall .
Don,
My chain has not been yanked by Magnus, but I do see where you are yanking his. Please, can we accept Magnus at his word? I certainly do.
Ssshhh Don. Your ruining it all. Ofcourse it's all a lie. I heard that this was a great place to pick up chicks, that was the reason I joined this forum. Someone else told me that question about code 83 or 100 was a sure way to get lucky.
Or, what are you on? Why would I lie about this? You started out somewhatd rude but now your outrigt insulting me since your in effect is calling me a liar. The fact that you seems to know very little facts also starts to me think on how serious you are. Since this topic is about tracks and you have strong opinions about I would have thought you had a clue of what Atlas track costs. It is nowhere near 1700$. Infact you are so off that I start to think that you don't even have a Mr, are you just here for the chicks to? Do you know what the amount of Atlas track that I descibed costs? It costs 695$ from first hobby. Almost a third that the expert Don claims.
Your knowledge of climate and lattitudes also leaves a lot to wish for. Up here the sun is up almost 24 hours a day during the summer. There is also a small thing called the Gulf stream up here and that gives us some nice weather. That makes it fairly nice to be in the garage/train room during that period. Last summer the garage was Ok to be in from May untill late October. That is enough for me for now. But since my plan is to ad on the house in abiout three years I like to keep costs down on materials that I can't move inside when that happens. That is why I have purchased a lot of rolling stock. I also like collecting stuff and enjoy just watching the engines and cars in my numerous display cabinets.
I'm also moving parts of the layout into my kids room. Some of the rolling stock is for them. But since your so ignorant don't bother.
So get your facts straight, stop being unpolite and stop showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge about things that you claim to have knowledge about. Accept that people might have difrent opinions then you and stop call people liars when YOU have NOTHING to suport your ridiculous claims.
In conclusion, if you don't believe me then wyh do you bother? Just stop writing insults to me and let the other suckers get yanked. I'm sure they feel dumb now after you exposed me. Helping a newbie might be ok but helping aliar. Poor fools.
Awwww Geeeez, now everybody's gonna know about the MRR groupies!
But if you really want to attract them Magnus, you've got to start a thread about how big your locomotive is.
I was going to post last night but I got home from darts pretty late, and shall we say had a couple, so I refrained. You make a good point about the cost of the track Magnus, and the worst part is that it's been established on this thread too.
In any case Don, you're failing to realize the resiliency or the model railroader. Taking him at his word (as Joe says, and I also have no reason not to.) he's dealing with the circumstances he has to deal with. (Which apparently aren't quite what you'd expect when you hear the term "Artic Circle" He's gets almost the same time I would in an outbuilding with no heat on Long Island.)
So maybe on the surface it sounds a bit far fetched, but does that make it impossible? People in Europe have been dealing with the obstacle of space (or lack of it) since the dawn of the hobby. I personally couldn't imagine trying to have a significant MRR in a house without a basement, or at least a nice garage, and there are plenty of them even where I live. I'm really not sure where I'm going with this...
But I would hate to see such a good thread go down in flames...
BTW Magnus, did he insult you in your own language? ("Svenska and Flicka")
Hi again.
The problem with space is an obvious for everyone here in Europe. The average home that is built here in Sweden is half that of the average in the U.S. There is simply not that many options for me. I plan to ad about 80 square metres in a few years. That will provide me with enough space to move my layout indoors. But until then I don't have a choise. So I accept that poor weather and certain problems will be a part of my hobby. But that is OK. During the winther I can do other stuff and paint buildings and so on. It's all about adapting to reality.
It's the gulf stream that makes this area habitable. Just look at the map on the middle of Seden, there is roughyly where I am so there is a bit left until I would live on the arctic cirkle. It's a few hours by car. If I put it this way, some of my classmates at the university lives north of it. The first snow ususally falls in November and then there is snow steadily from December till about now. Spring here have arrived now and the snow is melting fast. I will probably be able to enter my trainroom properly soon. As it is now I can squezze in but I can not get lumber and larger materials in there wich prohibits certain kind of work. In late October it will be cold in there so I wouldn't lay track then. But I have run trains during very cold days and they don't seems to be bothered about it. I guess you get used to the weather if you live up here. It's adapt or move away. I choose to move here and I love it.
Don did not insult me in Swedish and I apologize if it looked like that. That was not my intention. Svenska and Flicka means Swedish and girl so quite harmless. What I meant is that I do not like to be caled a liar by someone who have no proof and no reason to say that.
I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, Good and bad. I truly apreciate all of your efforts to help me to make the "right" choise. On that note I will leave this argument behind me and go about my buisness as nothing have happened. No hard feelings on my half, sometimes arguments get heated and with the faceless comunication of the internet things are easily said that would have better been left unmentioned.
If anyone have gotten hurt by anything I said I apologize and I hope that I and Don can continue and try to help each other in the future. My best wishes for all of you.