I just realized: You're going to have a whole lot of time inside in the winter to do all sorts of scratchbuilt railroad projects!
Do hope you have given some thought to how you are going to operate all those turnouts. About the cheapest one can get a Tortoise machine here is $10, maybe $8 for the Kemtron/NJIs except you also will need a big capacitor for the snap-action power supply, and they are not cheap. Even ground throws run about $3, choke cables about the same. So, the price really is about $5 more per turnout, minimum. Add signaling to that for the main line, and it will be at least $10/block, even if you roll your own (3-4 power transistors and parts). And we've yet to scenick a thing!
Model railroading is not cheap!
I would look into what is available in bulk on eBay -- I recently bought some brass-engine parts from a gent in England, and once I talked to him about needing them cheap rather than right away, we found the postage wasn't very much, and I had the parts inside of two weeks. A lot of the eBay track sold is brass, which by definition is code 100 (given your temperature problem, you don't want brass); but, you can find nickle-silver RTR as well as bundles of rail if you look and are patient.
If you're going to lay your own, don't overlook the TruScale line of "roadbed" -- it's no longer made, but a lot of old stock is around, and because it is white pine, it holds spikes very well, even under extreme swings in temperature.
And while we're on the craftsmanship angle, have you considered making your own switch machines? Basically, you need two empty thread spools and some magnet wire to wrap around them, plus an old piece of nail and the linkage (total cost each is about a dollar). Signaling contacts are extra, plus the power supply (don't even try to make your own capacitors).
So many talk about the code 83 track but if you are running main lines as the modern world of today the rail is tall welded rail that supports the heavy loads of today. Whether you have code 100 or something in between to represent the tall rail is immaterial. The correct code 83 would be what I see down at the grain elivator sidings here in Terre Haute. All of this type of rail is usually in various states of disrepair and probably why they lost the grain cars off the track crossing US 41 a couple of weeks ago in connection with the Ice storm. I have too much invested in code 100 to change now and overall I run mostly modern equipment. I even get out the first train cars I had on occation that still have the old tall flanges. Yes the flanges will ride the top of the ties of the shorter rail. Yes you can hear every tie as they roll over them.
Enjoy the code 83 if you have it but remember that it would represent older railroads/trackage and especially pre-welded rail. I for one don't see the difference in the track but I also don't get down on the rail to eyeball it either.
Thanks, Newly Shrine Hill Rail
nobullchitbids wrote:snip . . . I've read two of the three pages of replies and found confirmation of what the people at Bowser once told me: Model railroading has been replaced with model train running (the craftsmen are disappearing). snip . . . .
snip . . . I've read two of the three pages of replies and found confirmation of what the people at Bowser once told me: Model railroading has been replaced with model train running (the craftsmen are disappearing). snip . . . .
Model railroading has many facets, few if any of us are expert craftsmen in all the areas, however you may be the exception.
Craftsmen are made, not born; sucess breeds success. Lets help people be successful, not insist that unless they build their own turnouts, their lives will be amiss because their layout cannot pass your personal test of authenticity.
At the moment I cannot think of a better way to discourage new modelers.
Joe
Gee, imagine that, same topic has raged on Atlas for past weeks, I come over here and same thing. My layout was started in late 1988 era. Code 100 was about it. Layout is three decks, 28ft by 35 ft. To date, I still have a lot of code 100, also code 83 and 70. I have handlaid track, I have flex track. Layout runs just fine still today, and I will be darned if I will rip it up and replace all the code 100 just because some of you think it is "toy". The good news is you don't have to ever visit my railroad and be offended. Life is good.
Bob
joe-daddy wrote: nobullchitbids wrote: snip . . . I've read two of the three pages of replies and found confirmation of what the people at Bowser once told me: Model railroading has been replaced with model train running (the craftsmen are disappearing). snip . . . . Model railroading has many facets, few if any of us are expert craftsmen in all the areas, however you may be the exception. Craftsmen are made, not born; sucess breeds success. Lets help people be successful, not insist that unless they build their own turnouts, their lives will be amiss because their layout cannot pass your personal test of authenticity. At the moment I cannot think of a better way to discourage new modelers.Joe
nobullchitbids wrote: snip . . . I've read two of the three pages of replies and found confirmation of what the people at Bowser once told me: Model railroading has been replaced with model train running (the craftsmen are disappearing). snip . . . .
You tell 'im, Joe!
jobfather wrote:I have read this entire forum with interest but I am amazed how many are discussing their track preferences based on "flex track" and other construction related issues. What about turnouts?????I am beginning a new layout after many years of waiting and am in a total quandry trying to select a brand and code of turnout. If appearance and cost be the key issues there is a lot of code 83 that looks good....Peco, Walthers....but Atlas, the price leader, has turnouts that don't even look real and aren't even similar amongst size, ie, a #6 turnout and a #8 turnout have different frogs etc. And Atlas turnouts have long legs....and long term maintenance question marks. The Walthers 83 turnouts look good and have both a reasonable price point and selection but are nowhere to be had. And who knows when there will be more?? Their website says late April but.....???? Ditto the Shinohara if 100 is your choice. Peco has a nice selection of 100 but in 83 is seriously lacking and their new 83 is outrageously priced. For me, there is no "winner" amongst any of these brands "if" you are considering, appearance, reliability, cost and availability (and code too!).And ditto switch machines. The Tortoise seem to be the "operational" choice but are huge in size compared to others and difficult to place because of their size and they are costly as well. Atlas is again the price leader but their machines can only be used with their turnouts (above table) and don't have a long life expectancy (for under table). Peco are decent cost wise and size wise but may only work well with Peco turnouts. Ditto the Rix.Don't mean to muddy the waters but after 50+ years you would think "someone" out there would jump ahead of the others, especially in HO. For me selecting the turnouts will ultimately select the flex track.
I have read this entire forum with interest but I am amazed how many are discussing their track preferences based on "flex track" and other construction related issues. What about turnouts?????
I am beginning a new layout after many years of waiting and am in a total quandry trying to select a brand and code of turnout. If appearance and cost be the key issues there is a lot of code 83 that looks good....Peco, Walthers....but Atlas, the price leader, has turnouts that don't even look real and aren't even similar amongst size, ie, a #6 turnout and a #8 turnout have different frogs etc. And Atlas turnouts have long legs....and long term maintenance question marks. The Walthers 83 turnouts look good and have both a reasonable price point and selection but are nowhere to be had. And who knows when there will be more?? Their website says late April but.....???? Ditto the Shinohara if 100 is your choice. Peco has a nice selection of 100 but in 83 is seriously lacking and their new 83 is outrageously priced. For me, there is no "winner" amongst any of these brands "if" you are considering, appearance, reliability, cost and availability (and code too!).
And ditto switch machines. The Tortoise seem to be the "operational" choice but are huge in size compared to others and difficult to place because of their size and they are costly as well. Atlas is again the price leader but their machines can only be used with their turnouts (above table) and don't have a long life expectancy (for under table). Peco are decent cost wise and size wise but may only work well with Peco turnouts. Ditto the Rix.
Don't mean to muddy the waters but after 50+ years you would think "someone" out there would jump ahead of the others, especially in HO. For me selecting the turnouts will ultimately select the flex track.
Good morning my son Job (I just had to say that! Sorry)
Your issue is the central issue of which track to buy, your wisdom is well put. I learned the lesson at great expense of time and money.
Peco turnouts (code 83) the other code turnouts have different pro and con
Pro
Con
I have both Atlas and Peco code 83 and would trade the Peco if it were not so much work. I have more derailments on the Peco as well.
My gold standard for my layout is Atlas products for all track and tortoise/wrabbit for switch machines. The high cost of Peco turnouts offset the tortoise/wrabbit cost. Tortoise takes half the time or less to install vs the peco and wiring the wrabbit is brain dead simple easy and you get track side LED signaling too.
My
Great question, by the way!
Joe Daddy
For Joe Daddy....
Thanks for your comments on the Peco....I must confess that I have been leaning in that direction. If Atlas turnouts looked as good as the Walthers I think it would be a no brainer.
One thing: a local hobby shop guru told me that the Atlas code 83 turnouts need to have some type of soldering done where the round pins are located on the flat metal tabs that connect the swiveling rails to the stationary rails. He said these often fail and should be soldered prior to installing. Since you seem to have a substantial amount of experience with the code 83 Atlas, have you any comments?
Also, I am not familiar with the Wrabbit?? Any comments on the Walthers or Shinohara? I am still thinking code 100 may be the better bet for me....
And Joe "Daddy"...if I am the "son" (at age 63) I guess that makes you the OF of this forum! (I had to say that!) (in gest of course).
I look forward to picking your brain more!!
When I put in my Atlas code 83 customline #4 turnouts, I prepped each turnout by slightly beveling the top, inside, and outside of each rail end where a joiner is used to attach the adjoining track piece. I also "sharpened" the points, and I soldered a short loop (2 inches) of 30 gauge stranded wire between each point and it's stock rail. The loop drops through a 3/8 inch hole below the track under each rail. It takes a little practice to get quick at it, but it should mean I will never have an electrical problem with the hinged joints. By the way, I have 20 gauge feeder to every piece of otherwise unsoldered track, includint each turnout. I solder the feeders to the bottom of the rails, and they stick down through holes in the board, but I have yet to hook many of them to under-layout bus wires. I have not yet regretted choosing Atlas. I use Caboose Industry ground throws to operate the switches.
Jim
... and I soldered a short loop (2 inches) of 30 gauge stranded wire between each point and it's stock rail.
Not depending on points to receive power by metal/metal contact is smart - and recommended proceedure for 'Power routing' turnouts via the frog (and SPDT comtacts).
'Chamfering' the points to 'nudge' wheel flanges entering a turnout shows you're a 'pro' (and recommended for all prefabricated turnouts).
(Re turnouts?) I have yet to hook many of them to under-layout bus wires
Do You happen to be a member of the Columbia Gorge Model Railroad Club in Portland? If so, We have missed You, and I am HAPPY to see that You are still enjoying the Hobby any way that You can. I Hope that Life treats You Better.
Your Friend,
challenger3980
Doug O'Grady
CGMRC mem# 101
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Misses the point, Joe:
The issue on the table was whether to spend extra money to get rail more to scale than what traditionally has been used. At some point, Lillian, the original requester, mentioned that the model railroad in question would have 40 turnouts.
You do the math: 40 turnouts times $12 (minimum) per commercial turnout comes to $480, against about $80 for those who roll their own. There would have to be a lot of rail on Lillian's railroad to save $400 prefering code 83 to code 100, no matter what the difference in price. Compared to what one would pay for the scale-sized rail, learning to roll one's own turnouts saves money big time. And having been a student once (in a galaxy far, far away), I know how important that is in such times.
Furthermore, by using Jack Work's method, the result is much more realistic, since his turnouts do not suffer from the universal commercial flaw I mentioned, so the points can be realistically placed.
But, to get more to the point of the observation I made: Yes, you are absolutely correct that craftsmen are made, but that is the point I would make. In some ways, MR is bigger and better than ever; however, in one area the magazine really has fallen down, and that is that craftsmanship no longer is anywhere near as highly emphasized as it once was -- the printed leader of the hobby is not helping to make those craftsmen, perhaps because it is so much easier to rely on the craftsmen in China and, in the process, plug the advertisers who are paying the lion's share of MR's freight bill. Splicing rail together really is elementary. Champfering switch points so that they nest in the stock rail is elementary. Running leaders to all rails and not relying on rail joints is elementary. Gauging guard rails correctly for the wheels one uses is elementary. Yet my impression is that many who posted here are unaware of these techniques. They expect everything to work "out of the box."
I do not think the reason for this is because they want to be slovenly workmen. I think the reason is that we don't have the leadership in the "craftsman" departments and spend too much of our emphasis these days on "model train running." That, in a word, is wrong. Model railroading is the world's greatest hobby precisely because it pushes those involved in it to excel in so many different things, and no matter how good any one of us is in any one of them, inevitably there will be areas where we lag behind. There are many areas in model railroading where I would have to say I am not a craftsman. But, that does not make me forget that the first half of "model railroading" is "model" -- operation is important, but it only is half of the hobby.
And, like you said, Joe: Craftsmen are made -- made by someone. Like Jack Work. When we don't publish that kind of material, "for want of interest," who is hurt?
Special to Lillian: I took a look at my B&O history like I promised. There was no specific mention of rail size in it, but from the photographs, if anything, I would say that even code 83 is too large for much of the steam-era trackage. Code 70 Shinohara or code 75 Peco probably is much closer to what I saw depicted.
Of course it is possible in areas not depicted that B&O used heavier rail.
As for the suggestion you look into an Akane EM-1, depending on the model, Akanes can be either joys or heartbreakers. I have no immediate familiarity with the EM-1; however, I do know that throwing away the Akane motors is probably the first thing modelers do to them today. Since the engines all were made in the 1960s, the next thing modelers do is strip all the turnings and castings and replace them with modern specimens. Finally, almost all of the Japanese models from that era used wire sizes too large for the applications, so to really do the job right, you have to redo the piping.
This will take you about one to two months of solid work per engine for the reconditioning. Your best friends? A miniature gas torch, silver-bearing solder, a good paste flux (goes where you want it and stays there), plus a "twill" drilling chuck (for hand-drilling holes with very small drills -- buy two sets of drill bits, for the Sunday when you break one and the hobby shop is closed). These twill chucks are actually designed to be used in a drill press but are just as good in place of a pin vise (except that they will put good blisters and callouses on your fingers). For the larger drill bits, use an Indian twist drill. And flake the solder so you don't apply too much of it.
It is hard to clamp one of these old models and keep it steady in one position without damaging it, so power drilling is difficult. But, I do all right by hand with a portable vise and a ten-power glass for the really close work, and there is nothing quite like building (or rebuilding) your own steam locomotive.
If you think you might be interested in such work, older MRs have a lot of information in them on this:
Gordon Odegaard's articles on building a Mikado in brass (Oct. '82-Nov. '83);
A series of articles on superdetailing Big Boys and Challengers (late 1962 to early 1963);
Any of the earlier articles by Mel Thornburgh, some going back to the early '40s.
And I guarantee you that rebuilding an Akane will give you a better EM-1 model than reworking a Big Boy.
challenger3980 wrote: [welcome]Hi Don, Do You happen to be a member of the Columbia Gorge Model Railroad Club in Portland? If so, We have missed You, and I am HAPPY to see that You are still enjoying the Hobby any way that You can. I Hope that Life treats You Better. Your Friend, challenger3980 Doug O'Grady CGMRC mem# 101
Guilty, as charged. Still recovering from a stroke. Regards to all, and stay vertical. (CGMRC #138)
I have been thinking about doing my own turnouts ever since Crandall showed me that wonderfull tool that he uses. So I might look into that the next time I order. How long time does it take to construct one turnout? Not that Iäm in a hurry but it would be good to know a rough guidline once you get into serial production so to speak.
And one more thing Nobullchitbids, my screen name is Lillen or you may call me Magnus wich is my real name. Lillian is a womans name here in Sweden so I chuckle every time you right it. I just thought I better tell you before someone asks for my phonenumber!
Cheers Magnus
Sorry about the name screw up -- I was wondering why "Lillian" kept sounding like a guy!
Re the turnout jigs, I build my turnouts on site, so I don't use them and have no opinion of them.
I do use TruScale "roadbed" (it's actually ballast board), either plain or milled, which no longer is made but which can be obtained on eBay from other modelers and new old-stock from defunct hobby shops. How long it takes me to do one depends on whether I lay my own ties, since doing that requires one take several of Work's recommended steps, e.g., sanding the tops of the ties and restaining to insure everything is flat. Laying one's own ties looks better, but using a milled block saves steps and time. You don't have to sand the tops of those -- they're already flat.
Also, time taken depends on what I am trying to do. For example, if I am laying a yard ladder, I will take the two lead stock rails and roughly spike them in place at the ends, then determine where I have to file away the webs to locate the points. The ladders usually are not gapped until after the turnout, so I can make the continuation of the stock rails from single lengths of 3-ft sections of rail. If I do a string of turnouts on milled blocks, I would say that it takes about an hour to hour and a half per turnout exclusive of final spiking time. I say exclusive of that because I do not know how meticulous you intend to be in that department -- obviously it takes twice as long to spike every tie as it does to spike every other, and half again as long to spike every four. I spike every other tie, and that has been sufficient to avoid temperature kinks.
When I am laying on milled block, I do take some shortcuts with the Work method. For example, I will lay the straight leg first, then cut the gap for the frog with a moto-tool and cutting disk, taking out the rail only to the web. I then form fit the diverging rail to form the frog -- it does not have to be perfect since I ultimately fill the frog with silver solder and cut or file the actual wheel paths with the moto-tool and a knife file. Some do's and don't's:
Do wear safety glasses or some protective eyewear when spiking! I once drove a spike into a hidden knot; it bounced out so violently that it drove itself into my cheekbone, and hard enough to bend the point. Bled like a stuck pig -- not what one would want to have happen to his eye.
Do not be too aggressive when driving spikes, especially in lighter rail. One thing about rail strength said previously definitely is true: Driving the spikes too hard against the lighter rail sections can bend them in slight "v's," causing all sorts of tracking problems which are hard to spot. Buy a machinist's square and use it to make sure the rail goes in level.
Do not bend the ends of the wing or guard rails too far or too much, and make certain they all line up in terms of placement -- this makes for a professional-looking installation.
Do use your NMRA gauge liberally and often! It is a lot easier to catch an error early and correct it than have to go back later, after the ties are marred with a godzillion spikes. And there is a tendency when spiking rail, when spiking one side first, to push the rail in that direction, making the gauge either to narrow or too wide.
Do not use the NMRA gauge for guard-rail width if you are using the newer, semi-scale wheels. It is too wide. Look up the seminal articles on scale wheels (Paul Dolkos in MR) and obtain the correct width, then make a gauge of your own with brass or steel and a Vernier caliper.
Do isolate the points from the wing rails with insulated rail joiners. You don't need those temperature extremes you mentioned closing the gaps and causing a difficult-to-find short.
I use Kemtron machines for mainline turnouts because of their host of contacts useful for signaling. Do use the main contacts for routing power to the wing rails, and to assure power to the points, drop wires from each and connect to the stock rails.
Do consider using pc ties (made from strips of electrical pc board) to make the point assembly, with appropriate slices to keep each point electrically separated. I find that, for lightly used turnouts, I can solder the rails directly to the ties, but for heavily trafficked areas, install wing tabs and use a rivet-type fastening to install some "give" into the connection.
Do consider using Anderson turnout links (or making your own based upon the Anderson design). These save a lot of set up time when attaching the switch machine.
Before investing a lot of money in jigs, do try to lay a couple of turnouts using NMRA templates. These can be had for free from older modeling magazines or for membership dues in the NMRA. And recall: You are trying to save money!
And finally, remember: Craftsmanship, shaftsmanship, you never know if you can do anything unless you try. Don't ever be intimidated by want of experience -- it is only a train!
nobullchitbids wrote:Misses the point, Joe:The issue on the table was whether to spend extra money to get rail more to scale than what traditionally has been used. At some point, Lillian, the original requester, mentioned that the model railroad in question would have 40 turnouts.You do the math: 40 turnouts times $12 (minimum) per commercial turnout comes to $480, against about $80 for those who roll their own. There would have to be a lot of rail on Lillian's railroad to save $400 prefering code 83 to code 100, no matter what the difference in price. Compared to what one would pay for the scale-sized rail, learning to roll one's own turnouts saves money big time. And having been a student once (in a galaxy far, far away), I know how important that is in such times.
No, Nobullchitbids, I didn't miss the point. One crawls, stumbles, walks then runs. Building turnouts is running by any strech of the imagination.
So far as saving money, no, I don't think so, time is money to me. Spending a year or two building 40 turnouts is not my idea of saving money and enjoying my hobby. There is just too much to do to waste my valuable time building turnouts that for all I know will be more temperamental and less reliable than the ones I can by for 12 bucks.
Jig or no jig, getting the ties even and flat is no trivial chore from what I've read. If I am going to build a turnout,why cheat and use premilled road bed? You should be using rough sawn pine and smooth it out with a block plane. Makes as much sense as your opposition to buying a turnout. Surely you forge your own rails and nails, right! Then there is the issue of using a jig, why? Use blue prints like the railroad does, the jig takes the fun out of it.
Your logic is flawed from my perspective.
Joe,
If you are using a milled block, you don't have to lay the ties because they are already there. And milled or plain, the blocks cost the same -- $1-$2 each.
But for those who want to lay ties quickly and evenly, with only slight variations to prove they are handlaid:
Get one of the milled blocks -- straight, curved, turnout, crossover, whatever -- and slide the appropriate length of tie between the millings. I use Campbell profile ties but I suspect one could use full-dimensioned ones as well. Now, take a strip of masking tape and press it along the length of the strip of "jigged" ties and carefully pull the masking tape up. The majority of the ties will stick to the tape, and the tape then is transferred to a plain block coated in the right areas with white or carpenter's glue. Insert the remainder of the ties (those that fell off the tape) by hand. Make a sanding boat 18-24 inches long, like the Work article suggests, and sand the ties after they've dried, which previously were stained by soaking them in all that paint thinner used to clean the brushes with (but use your head re color). Restain with the rest of the thinner. Zip, zip, zip, and you should be done.
Was that really that hard?
nobullchitbids wrote:Joe,If you are using a milled block, you don't have to lay the ties because they are already there. And milled or plain, the blocks cost the same -- $1-$2 each.But for those who want to lay ties quickly and evenly, with only slight variations to prove they are handlaid:Get one of the milled blocks -- straight, curved, turnout, crossover, whatever -- and slide the appropriate length of tie between the millings. I use Campbell profile ties but I suspect one could use full-dimensioned ones as well. Now, take a strip of masking tape and press it along the length of the strip of "jigged" ties and carefully pull the masking tape up. The majority of the ties will stick to the tape, and the tape then is transferred to a plain block coated in the right areas with white or carpenter's glue. Insert the remainder of the ties (those that fell off the tape) by hand. Make a sanding boat 18-24 inches long, like the Work article suggests, and sand the ties after they've dried, which previously were stained by soaking them in all that paint thinner used to clean the brushes with (but use your head re color). Restain with the rest of the thinner. Zip, zip, zip, and you should be done.Was that really that hard?
You are not missing the point, sir,you are ignoring it.
Magnus, your first turnout will take you close to two hours. They get faster, and finally, at some point, you will be able to make your own without the laying jig, although the points jig is still going to be useful.
I can make a turnout now between one hour and 90 minutes, depending on distractions, how organized I am at the outset, and so on.
To be clear about your costs over purchasing commercial turnouts:
a. your initial purchase, whatever the cost is for the kit as of today, will permit you to make six turnouts....if you have the soldering equipment and plain rail stock...a plastic sheaf with perhaps 50 90 cm rail lengths in it. You won't get any rail or soldering equipment, although I believe Tim Warris will provide it for a fee.
b. Your first turnout may or may not be a keeper. If not, then you now have five, not six.
c. When you have consumed the material that you get with the kit (some fine solder, a bag of PCB ties, and six laser cut tie blocks), you will have to purchase more. Don't forget that you still need the rails, although you will have that by the time you have made your 5 or 6 useful turnouts. If you don't mind cutting your own ties out of stripwood, then you can save a few dollars, not a huge amount. Time will begin to become a factor for you perhaps.
d. I don't know what kind of a deal you can get purchasing 40 some-odd turnouts from a commercial supplier, but I'm guessing they will end up costing you close to US$15 each, perhaps more, by the time buddy knocks on your door for delivery, or if you have to go pick the parcel up at a depot or post office. If you have customs on top of any shipping costs, then you figure it out and add that to the turnout purchase price. Are we nearer to $17 now? So, @$17/turnout, 40 turnouts comes to USD$680. Sorry, I forgot the exclamation mark...here it is...!
e. back on Earth, your jigs and bundle of 50 rails, a new soldering iron, and a jeweller's saw complete with a small bag with 12 filamental cutting blades (a must have, don't even think of using anything else!) will set you back close to USD$400, give or take $40.
I don't believe I have forgotten anything momentous, so you now have a fair idea of what is in store for you in either case. You can order and have them there in three weeks, or you can have nearly half of them built in the same length of time if you spend six hours each weekend building them.
It is very much a personal choice, clearly, but for me, I wanted to know how a turnout can be made, how they work, and I wanted to handlay my own at some point. When the need arose, I was quite confident that I knew how to map out the curves, measure, cut, file, shape, solder, and then gap where needed. Both of my personally designed turnouts are in use this very night as I type this.
If I could make a suggestion...? Buy a few commercial ones, decent ones like Peco Code 83 or Walthers/shinohara or Micro-Engineering (no website, you have to call or email) so that you can have a break now and then and play with a small portion of your layout sooner than later. In the meantime, learn how to make them, and use these superior turnouts as you are able to provide them.
-Crandell
joe-daddy wrote: Spending a year or two building 40 turnouts is not my idea of saving money and enjoying my hobby.
Midnight Railroader wrote: joe-daddy wrote: Spending a year or two building 40 turnouts is not my idea of saving money and enjoying my hobby. How does a max of two hours per turnout add up to a year?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Brunton wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: joe-daddy wrote: Spending a year or two building 40 turnouts is not my idea of saving money and enjoying my hobby. How does a max of two hours per turnout add up to a year?Doesn't spend much time model rairoading?
OK, I'll byte! Fellows, I can easily spend an hour getting some flex track installed properly, aligned and working right, especially incompatible code 83. Installing a RTR turnout is at least an hour job.
And, you guys are missing the point as well. IF you use a store bought jig, ties, rails, nails and pre-milled roadbed are you really scratch building? No, you are just building a kit. Real scratch builders use a spoke shave and a fir log and have a forge.
My pointy head is tired and we are talking past each other anyway.
Build your kits if you so desire, I'll run RTR whenever I can afford it. I am out of discretionary time.
Peace to all of you.
joe-daddy wrote: [Fellows, I can easily spend an hour getting some flex track installed properly, aligned and working right, especially incompatible code 83. Installing a RTR turnout is at least an hour job.
[Fellows, I can easily spend an hour getting some flex track installed properly, aligned and working right, especially incompatible code 83. Installing a RTR turnout is at least an hour job.
Guys,Both HO clubs I am a member of uses Atlas C100 track and switches..We painted the rail and then ballast the track and it looks smaller to the eye..I use Atlas C83track and switches on my industrial switching layouts..Know what? Both works equally well and looks good.
Its your choice and your call.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Midnight Railroader wrote: joe-daddy wrote: [Fellows, I can easily spend an hour getting some flex track installed properly, aligned and working right, especially incompatible code 83. Installing a RTR turnout is at least an hour job. You're right, you don't have enough time to handlay!
I think joe-daddy is pretty close to right on the mark if you are going to include everything. To me the list of tasks include removing the RTR turnout from packaging, checking with NMRA gauge and multimeter, fixing critical discrepancies, adding feeders for frog and/or points, placing turnout on layout, mounting switch machine under the layout, installing and adjusting the switch machine linkage, installing the turnout controls at the control panel(s), wiring the switch machine, wiring frog feeder to switch machine contacts, and testing and tuning. If you accomplish all this in less than an hour (I'd probably take a good 2 hours), then my hat is off to you! Notice we still haven't weathered the rail and ballasted. And we assumed the roadbed was already in place and sanded.
For the same reason, I don't believe those who say they hand lay a turnout in an hour. You may physically construct the turnout at the bench in an hour, with it ready to place on the layout, but you still have all the installation tasks associated with an RTR still to perform.
From bare Homasote to completed, ballasted, weathered, wired turnout handlaid in place on my layout (no jigs), was about 6 hours (usually 3 evenings of about 2 hours each). I could probably improve on that now by using Tortoise instead of hand-made manual throws with slide switches, and by practice, but I don't think I would ever get under 5 hours.
Although joe-daddy's times are closer to the truth, the point that handlaid track is not all that much more time-consuming than flex track and RTR turnouts when all tasks are considered is valid. That is because the actual spiking and shaping of rail is not that big a proportion of the total effort involved to get smooth-running, completed track. My best guess from the above is that handlaid track takes perhaps twice as long as flex and RTR turnouts when the big picture is considered.
just my thoughts
Thanks for the observations, fwright, because there certainly is some truth to them, but please let us compare apples and apples. Whether RTR or handlaid -- or "kitbuilt" for those who prefer joedaddy's terminology -- we all have to cut in the switch machine or ground throw or fishline hooked to a ping pong ball or whatever we use. We all have to adjust linkage, ballast and weather the rails, attach the signalling circuits if used, &c., &c.
But, Magnus' question as I understood it was what kind of time increase was he looking at were he to handlay v. install a commercial.
I do believe 1-2 hours is approximately correct, if one starts from a milled block, builds on site, and has use of a moto-tool and a cutting disk. And remember I specifically excluded final spiking time, since some will spike every tie, others (like me) every other, some every third, some every fourth. My one-two hour estimate is based solely on getting the rail onto the ties in initially usable condition with all of the parts in place and clearances proper. The only things in Mr. Wright's list on mine as well are attaching the feeder lines to the bottom of the rails and dropping them through benchwork holes. Since I am starting with virgin rail (no plastic ties), attaching feeders is quick and simple -- just solder the wire to the correct point on the bottom of a rail, then push it through the hole in the wood (not a time grabber).
Clearly, it will take longer to handlay individual ties onto a plain block, especially at a turnout because (recall) the length of the ties changes every third or fourth tie (you have to get them in the jig in the correct order). There are about 25 steps in the complete Work procedure, and common sense tells one he could not complete them all in an hour.
nobullchitbids wrote:Thanks for the observations, fwright, because there certainly is some truth to them, but please let us compare apples and apples. Whether RTR or handlaid -- or "kitbuilt" for those who prefer joedaddy's terminology --
Thanks for the observations, fwright, because there certainly is some truth to them, but please let us compare apples and apples. Whether RTR or handlaid -- or "kitbuilt" for those who prefer joedaddy's terminology --
Apples to apples? No more like Apples to eggs. 1-2 hours but no ties or spiking? So, it only takes an expert about 3 hours to get a hand laid turnout ready to lay? If I could build my first one without any assistance from anyone in a day, and have it work properly, I'd be amazed. And no cracks about ability either. Things like this take time to master.
Do you guys use a resistance soldering machine? I'll guess most do to get the clean, precise joints necessary. Was the cost of that tool in the estimate? Probably not, that eats about half or more of the $300 savings.
Guys, hand laying track is an art, I have nothing but the highest respect for those who have the time, skill and patience to pursue. But I am reminded of something Brunton mentioned recently, about avoiding electronic complexity on his layout. While, he may be comfortable building his own track, I am not, but I cannot get enough electronic complexity. I'll spend my time there, thank you.
Thanks for the insight into hand laying, maybe after I retire, and have my layout working, I'll look into it.
joe-daddy wrote:Do you guys use a resistance soldering machine?
No, just a pencil iron from Radio Shack.
I use a miniature gas torch when possible, which is all instances where I won't incinerate the ties. In those cases, I use a gun-style or pencil iron, depending upon amount of heat needed. I puddle silver-solder lakes into my frogs and guard rails, then cut in the wheel paths (why one needs the moto-tool/cutting disk, plus a knife file). Make certain you have eye protection with the cutting disk (they do shatter!).
You know, in all this shouting about what is "scratchbuilt," &c., there is another possibility, although it won't save any money: One could take a quality commercial turnout, e.g., Shinohara or Walthers (Shinohara code 83), and simply remove the points, then replace them with insulated joiners and new points made per the Work method. If cost is not an issue, I should think this a reasonable alternative to get the closer-to-prototype look of the real McCoy. It should not take a lot of extra time.