tstage wrote: Actually, I think that DCC is even more of an asset on a smaller layout than a larger one. With DC, your blocks are smaller (if you have more than one block) and, thereby, throwing stitches could get to be somewhat cumbersome to operate with more than one locomotive on the track.If you are operating (or plan on operating) only one locomotive at a time on your layout ever, the choice of DC or DCC is pretty much a mute point. However, if you decide you want to operate more than one locomotive at a time, to me, the scale starts tipping to the DCC side.Tom
Actually, I think that DCC is even more of an asset on a smaller layout than a larger one. With DC, your blocks are smaller (if you have more than one block) and, thereby, throwing stitches could get to be somewhat cumbersome to operate with more than one locomotive on the track.
If you are operating (or plan on operating) only one locomotive at a time on your layout ever, the choice of DC or DCC is pretty much a mute point. However, if you decide you want to operate more than one locomotive at a time, to me, the scale starts tipping to the DCC side.
Tom
I agree with Tom. I put DCC on my 4 x 8 and love it. I can also run with my kid or kids at the same time--yes on the 4 x 8. To me DC is like using a Dos computer or a slide rule. Or a driving Yugo when a Beemer is sitting at your doorstep with the door open and the keys in the ignition.
But what the heck, we still use the qwerty keyboard even though it was designed in the 1880s to slow typists down so the keys wouldn't stick in a typewriter. They developed the Dvorák keyboard in the 1920's and with a week's retraining, typists can exceed 300 wpm. Still we bang on our 1880's technology.
My guess is there will be still be codgers running DC when model trains are run using mind control.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Beegle55,
One point must also be considered: If you are at the controls and you have to react quick - the needed button at the throttle must be right there to be pressed. Thus I prefer throttles with direct access function buttons. I don’t like the throttles with these multifunction buttons, where you have to consider first what combination have to be pressed, if things become critical. Also should the programming of the decoders be easy. Kenkal suggested in this forum to try the different systems, do that whenever possible.
Good luck,Rene.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
skerber wrote:Although I never tried DCC, I am planning on sticking with DC. The reason? I have a small layout. I am perfectly happy with DC.
That's why I returned to DC on my industrial switching layout..DCC IMHO is overkill on small layouts where its best to run one train such as a 4 x 8 or even a 5 x 9..Its been question on small around the walls layouts as well.This last question was raise by the Prototypical Operation Sig I am a member of.So everybody will know we was discussing train overkill during operations by use of DCC on small rtw layouts.BTW..80% of the members use DC in one form or the other from CTC16 to single power packs.Some use the old Astic(sp?) system.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I think the question of whether it's worth it comes down to one thing - independent train operation.
If you run more than one train (even if you don't do a lot of switching) and want to control them independently by simply controlling their speed and the turnouts for routing, then DCC might be worth it for you.
If you enjoy meets and passes on a single track layout without elaborate toggling of blocks and mini-blocks, then DCC might be worth it to you.
If you want to have a guest over and let them run a train while you run another without a prolonged discussion of toggles and Cab A vs Cab B, then DCC might be worth it to you.
It was for me, but everyone's different.
Mike Tennent
I'm not trying to talk anyone into a command system they don't want but your post made me puzzel over a few things.
Virginian wrote:Just one specific instance. I don't particularly like switching, as in spotting cars, making up trains. I do like running, and changing routes.
Until they eliminate the need for blocks for reversing polarity when reversing route(s), just like in DC, there is no advantage in this instance, for me. So they make an automatic reverser.
And, if they can make such a split second wonder gizmo, why can't they put protection on every system and every decoder so that even if I accidently wire the wall socket to the track everything is protected?
All that constant lighting stuff down the drain.
Wait a minute. How can anyone say it is worth it for someone else ? This is the question each person has to answer for themselves. But, that is not good enough for some people. They want you to agree with them sooooooo bad.
I am just about to embark on a new layout. I have decided it is not worth it for me. At least not yet. As things improve, I will see. Just one specific instance. I don't particularly like switching, as in spotting cars, making up trains. I do like running, and changing routes. Until they eliminate the need for blocks for reversing polarity when reversing route(s), just like in DC, there is no advantage in this instance, for me. So they make an automatic reverser. Great, but my thumb still works, too. And, if they can make such a split second wonder gizmo, why can't they put protection on every system and every decoder so that even if I accidently wire the wall socket to the track everything is protected? And I will have to rewire every single engine except my BLIs and PCMs. All that constant lighting stuff down the drain.
If it suits your style of operating, wonderful, be happy, I am happy for you.
STOP! Don't even think of buying a system until you actually try the ones you are interested in. Save yourself a lot of grief and regrets. If you try a system and love it, you'll be happy, whether it's Digitrax or NCE or Lenz or.... The important thing is that you found someone with a system for you to try, for all the systems you are interested in, you know ahead of time what's important to you, what the system has to do, etc. Be sure and read the doc, hold the controller in your hand, start a train up, no, start up 2, go forwards and backwards, recall a loco, use momentum, do some simple consisting, try the whistle and bell if there is a sound decoder. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy based on what someone else likes or just on documentation or just on a hobby store's recommendation (he likely sells what has most profit for him anyway). Try them ALL that you are interested in. I do suggest that you don't buy the cheapest system you can, you'll regret it. Also, be very careful if you are thinking of the MRC system -- talk with some users.
Also, consider joining some of the DCC Yahoo forums -- there are groups for all the manufacturers systems. Everyday users will answer all your questions and share their experiences with you.
I use the NCE Power/Pro and am 100% happy. Went DCC 2 years ago and not once did I look back. Run your trains, not your track!
Good luck! Ken
beegle55 wrote: I am on the edge of buying a DCC system and all the goodies to go with it including decoders, sound decoders, turnout and accesories control... you get the point. At a bare minimun for two locos and the basic system that will do me good, I am looking at around $300. I now have three locos that I at least want decoders in, maybe one with sound, so thats adding it on. I like NCE powercabs and I have always liked the MRC products, and the prodigy express looks good as well. I am wondering after having big regrets before the buy that will, as always, comes with a good case of buyers remorse. So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system?? Thanks in advance for the replys and advice. -beegle55
I am on the edge of buying a DCC system and all the goodies to go with it including decoders, sound decoders, turnout and accesories control... you get the point. At a bare minimun for two locos and the basic system that will do me good, I am looking at around $300. I now have three locos that I at least want decoders in, maybe one with sound, so thats adding it on. I like NCE powercabs and I have always liked the MRC products, and the prodigy express looks good as well. I am wondering after having big regrets before the buy that will, as always, comes with a good case of buyers remorse. So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system?? Thanks in advance for the replys and advice.
-beegle55
I went the Digitrax Super Chief Radio route and added two additional boosters, some DS64s and a Locobuffer II. I probably have around $1200 in it so far. Well worth the price. After looking at the complexity DC would have been when I have 10-20 locomotives parked on the layout and trying to move just the right one, it became a non brainer. Now after installing the DS64s and using local routes, I am hooked on DCC control of turnouts. I also built an adapter to power building lights with DCC control but not take power from the track. It adds a whole new dimension to model railroading, especially with sound. I haven't played much yet with Decoder Pro for computer control but as soon as layout construction slows down, I'll be sucking all of my locomotive configurations into it for starters. I highly recommend DCC. As for systems, well everyone has an opinion.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote:No,yes and Depends..I went from DC to DCC and returned to DC..You guys can have DCC.Its a rip.You must be really old. I bet your 45 or something like that...
BRAKIE wrote:No,yes and Depends..I went from DC to DCC and returned to DC..You guys can have DCC.Its a rip.
You must be really old. I bet your 45 or something like that...
Even older, as old as you are young.
beegle55 wrote:Thanks for all the replys. I think that the Digitrax system is the one for me. I will get it and hopefully a new loco set up and running, then once the bank is built back up, a might add a walk-around throttle. Thanks again, beegle55.
You won't be sorry. DCC and digital sound in locos are two of the greatest enhancements I have seen in this hobby. I was very happy without either for many years but now that I have experienced both, I'd never want to go make to old fashioned locos again. I've been spoiled.
DCC is definitely worth it for loco control. For turnout control, it depends on how you want to do things. In some respects control at/near the turnout makes sense to me, though on cases where the turnouts would be remotely thrown in 'real life' there is some attraction to remoting them on the layout. Even then, DCC may or may not be the method you choose. Might save some $.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
DCC is the way to go - especially if you are going to run sound engines. Accessory and turnout control may be an area you don't need to get into immediately. What finally won me over was the simplicity of the track wiring compared to DC block wiring using a bunch of switches to control the track. With DCC, you control the trains, not the track.
I have an NCE PowerCab system, which I paid maybe $150 for. It is a self-contained "starter" set, which can accept one additional Cab, and also there is a more powerful booster available for expansion. If you want to go with a "non-starter" set, you need to spend quite a bit more money. In the future, if you get a bigger system, the PowerCab throttle can be used with the new system as a ProCab throttle, so there wouldn't be alot of money thrown away.
I have installed TCS and NCE decoders - I liked both. I have NOT attempted a sound install yet. I'm having trouble rounding up info on sound decoders, except that universally, MRC sound decoders have a poor reputation. I did purchase a Proto 2000 080 with QSI sound - it's pretty nice, and very LOUD when you first turn it on.
Enjoy!
Jim
beegle55 wrote:So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you DCC is dirt cheap for what one gets for it. The only person I don't recommend DCC for is someone who will only ever have a single locomotive.
DCC is dirt cheap for what one gets for it. The only person I don't recommend DCC for is someone who will only ever have a single locomotive.
I have an NCE PowerCab and love it. Right now I have a Soundtraxx decoder in just one Athearn CF7 and it operates on my Timesaver layout. The locomotive runs smoother on DCC making operation better. The sound is neat too. Having a hand held controler is so much better than the old power pack. Though you could add hand held with DC by the time you paid for it the whole DC system is not much less than a low cost DCC system. I waited quite some time to get DCC but I can now say that even if all I ever could have is one loco I'd go with DCC for sure. Bruce
Be aware that the Zephyr beginner set does NOT include a walk around throttle. It's a cool looking stationary power pack that has a handle like a real loco throttle and a separate forward reverse handle. At Tony's you can buy it for $159.99. Add a few decoders for 20 bucks a piece and your up and running for less than 200 dollars.
The NCE power cab beginner unit IS in fact a 7 foot tethered walk around throttle that fits well in the hand and enables you to move about a small layout throwing your turnouts and uncoupling cars. It sells for $139.99 at Tony's train exchange. So for about the same price as the Zephyr you can also be up and running with a few decoders for under $200.
They are both good starter systems. I don't care for the MRC prodigy express. I've used one and it takes two hands to operate plus it felt sort of cheap. Also DON'T buy MRC sound decoders. Many people have had problems with them.I don't care what the fanboys say, stay away from them.
Dan
beegle55,
It the Tech II's are straight DC, no pulse power, they will work fine with a Zephyr. As I mentioned before, Digitrax recommends a 'smooth' power supply. Any straight DC power pack will work. I have, as an experiment, used a Bachmann train set power supply without problems. It gave as good of loco response as my Railpower 1300s.
To use the jump ports, connect the DC output from your power pack to the proper connections on the back of the Zephyr. There are connections for two power packs (2-jump ports).
Once connected, the power packs act as DCC throttles.
If you want to run an analog (DC) loco, you can run one at a time on any one of the throttles on address 00.
The Zephyr manual is available for download from Digitrax as a PFD file. The site is here:
http://www.digitrax.com/
Read through the manual, particularly the getting started section and you will see how easy getting started with DCC can be.
Again, good luck!
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
The Tech II's arent jumpy power packs at all. They provide pretty constant 18 volts to my loco's when the track and trucks are cleaned properly. I was just wondering how the jump ports worked.
beegle55 wrote:So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system??
I actually started using command control for trains long before DCC came out. The main command unit cost $800, throttles were $100-$210, and the cheapest decoders if purchased in bulk were $49 each. And those are 1979 dollars! I have never regretted it, and have wondered all those years why it took everyone else so long to figure it out. In fact, I sort of snicker at the people who have recently (within the last 10 years) converted and act like they have discovered something brand new. Ditto for the sound.
If your Tech2 power packs have pulse power they will cause problems on the jump ports. The pulse, confuses the 'logic' in the system and you may get some weird loco response. Digitrax recommends a 'smooth' power pack be attached to them.
My little MRC Railpower 1300s work just fine.
Thanks for the reply Mark! I have pretty well decided on a Digitrax Zephyer started set, because it is really reliable and flexible from what I hear, and thats about all I need, and unlike other starter sets, it allows for way more expansion.
beegle55 wrote:Thanks for the replys. C&Ofan, I have three Tech 2's and I was going to keep a couple for opertating some isolated railways. I looked at Digitrax, they seem pretty user friendly, but I am going to get some advice off of my favorite hobby store owner, he's pretty good with all hobbies, although he isn't an HO specialist. All this advice really helps. I still like the NCE's, but a radio Procab is $700! I think maybe the similar MRC or Digitrax is the lower priced things for me, because my layout isnt top end by any means! Plus the limited budget has the biggest influence of all! Thanks, beegle55.
I got the Radio Power Pro a couple years ago, and I haven't looked back! It has enhanced how I run trains tremendously! It has also simplified wiring the layout tremendously.
I bought my system from a dealer for about $450, as I recall. I don't think they're doing business anymore, though. Check Litchfield Station (litchfieldstation.com) - they have the radio Power Pro for about $560. The non-radio Power Pro is about $390. Also check out Tony's trains (tonystrains.com) - his prices are comparable. You may be able to find others with similar pricing.
If you can possibly scrape up the cash and are seriously bitten by the MR bug, bite the bullet and go with DCC, even if you can only manage a starter set now. You'll be glad you did.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I have a Digitrax Zephyr, a UR91 radio reciever, and 3 DT400R radio throttles that I use to run my 25' x 50' HO layout. I have found that my layout enjoyment has skyrocketed compared to using DC analog (which is what I had first). Wireless control is the best thing going, and was well worth the added expense to me.
My club also uses Digitrax, the Chief system. The club has two UR91 recievers, 14 DS54 stationary decoders, 1 DS44 stationary decoder, 8 BDL168 block detectors, 1 PM42 autoreverser, 32 PS-type circuit breakers, 8 DB200 8amp boosters, plus a couple SE8c signal decoders and RX-8 transponding receivers that we haven't installed yet. And our layout is only about 1/3rd complete (it will be about 6300 sq. ft. when done). Now our club is an extreme example of layout engineering, and not too many home layouts will have all that (unless you want block detection, signalling, & transponding).
For prices, go to www.tonystrains.com
My club is celebrating our 69th year, and up until 1998, we were firmly a DC analog club. We had a 2500 sq. ft. layout, with 8 mainline cabs (50 toggles ea.), with 12 freight yard cabs of various sizes, plus several local branchline cabs here and there. We had two towerman and one dispatcher with a TelCo. communication system to all operators.
When we moved, we went DCC and haven't regretted it.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************