Regarding DCC vs. DC -
If I had to wire my layout for DC it would be a LOT more complex, and construction would be even slower than it already is! Using DCC means I didn't have to plan out an elaborate (or even simple) block control system. All I have to worry about when it comes to that is where to put insulated rail joiners to isolate sections of the layout for future power districts.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
selector wrote:...unless, Mark, it's to emulate the poor buggers in the lockout towers. Didn't they have to run here, run there, and throw switches?Nice to hear from you again, BTW.-Crandell
...unless, Mark, it's to emulate the poor buggers in the lockout towers. Didn't they have to run here, run there, and throw switches?
Nice to hear from you again, BTW.
-Crandell
rudywa wrote:Man, this is when I go through and uncheck my e-mail me replies throughout this topic, when members become arrogant about their "my club is better than your club" and have to "dis" Atlas switch machines, this is really immature. I think that we all have what we like, we can debate features but to insist that Tortise is the only "good" switch machine out there is really out of line. Atlas has been around many many more years than tortise and does not require "major" modifications to layout or other problems of wiring and switch levers, etc. My layout is on a table-Masonite with Foam placed on a table, so tortise is just out of the question. Tortise does not apply to everything and to insist that "mine is better than yours" attitude is why I have unchecked my e-mail me replies. It is too bad that some problem children have to ruin a good discussion by this sort of behavior. Oh, and your claim that Tortise machines do not break down is an absolute falsehood, no manufacturer or machine is perfect, especially when they are so new on the market compared to Atlas. "Can't we all just get along?"
Man, this is when I go through and uncheck my e-mail me replies throughout this topic, when members become arrogant about their "my club is better than your club" and have to "dis" Atlas switch machines, this is really immature. I think that we all have what we like, we can debate features but to insist that Tortise is the only "good" switch machine out there is really out of line. Atlas has been around many many more years than tortise and does not require "major" modifications to layout or other problems of wiring and switch levers, etc. My layout is on a table-Masonite with Foam placed on a table, so tortise is just out of the question. Tortise does not apply to everything and to insist that "mine is better than yours" attitude is why I have unchecked my e-mail me replies. It is too bad that some problem children have to ruin a good discussion by this sort of behavior. Oh, and your claim that Tortise machines do not break down is an absolute falsehood, no manufacturer or machine is perfect, especially when they are so new on the market compared to Atlas.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Nobody who wants a prototypical nice looking layout uses atlas "snap" switch machines. They are more "toylike" in appearance IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I started out with atlas switch machines when I was a kid, but after many years in model railroading I grew up to use ATLAS code 83 brown switches,walthers code 83, shinohara, microengineering etc........ and used tortoise to throw them and caboose ground throws.
marknewton wrote: rudywa wrote:I Love the original idea of DC operation, blocks and the like. It just charms me with the ingenuity of making it all work realisticallyI think you've hit upon the real reason so many "old-school" DC users are hostile towards DCC. They've come to believe that the compromises and work-arounds that DC entails somehow emulate realistic operations.They don't...
rudywa wrote:I Love the original idea of DC operation, blocks and the like. It just charms me with the ingenuity of making it all work realistically
rudywa,It would curteous of you to actually read the posts before making comments about the apparent maturity or lack thereof of the posters.
At no point has either one of us said that "my club is better than your club". You have made that up. I did disagree with his club's decision, but then I'm still allowed to, right? His club's direction is not mine. And that's okay. It's still a free country last I checked.
At no point have I said that the Tortoise is the only good switch machine. You have made that up, too. In fact, I also mentioned Switchmaster, earlier.
The fact that Atlas has been around longer than Circuitron is irrelevant. Mantua has been around a lot longer than just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that they make a better product than Overland.
The Tortoise is, IMHO, the best quality switch machine...period. The Atlas switch machine is, IMHO, at right next to the bottom, with only Life-Like, Tyco, and other snap-switch train set manufacturers below them. Why is that? If realism is the name of the game then:
Tortoise pros:1). Realistic slow motion throwing action that's completely adjustable.2). Under the table mounting does not have giant unrealistic solenoid next to track.3). A realistic quiet throwing motion, with no snappings.4). Has internal DPDT switch to power frogs and position indication lights.5). High reliability, with no failures in over 250 installations in my club.6). Low amperage requirements means not having to have a capacitor discharge unit to throw mulitple switches at one time.
Tortoise cons:a). At $16 ea. (at Tony's), they ain't cheap.b). As under the table mounts, they aren't very shallow, meaning that they can cause problems by running into structural parts of the benchwork.c). They are not a "snap" to install as it takes some skill to line them up correctly.
Atlas pros:1). They are inexpensive.2). They are easy to install on any Atlas switch.3). They don't require any layout modification what-so-ever.
Atlas cons:a). Soleniod power results in unrealistic abrupt throwing motion.b). Above table mounting results in large, unrealistic lump next to switch.c). Soleniod use causes snapping sound when activated.d). Has no ability to route frog power or drive light indication.e). Can be melted if the button is held down too long.f). Needs a capacitor discharge unit to drive multiple motors at one time.
Now, as to your problem with unchecking your e-mail replies...should that somehow effect us? I would never check that box because any thread, at any time, could suddenly explode into a mailstrom of posting. And who wants a hundred e-mails when you can just go to the Forum and read them?
As to my claim that Tortoise machines don't break down...sorry, so far that's the truth. As I've said, my club has installed over 250 of them over the last 8 years or so, and not one has been replaced (other than the one that was drilled through). Call me a liar if you want to, but them's the facts, bud. If you want to see the club layout, go to www.ssmrc.org
And you know, we'd all just "get along" if people wouldn't come into a post with a can of gas and a match...
Brakie,I agree, there are some very cliquey clubs around...no doubt. But my club, like yours, is very democratic. It's the only way the club could survive for 69 years like it has.
Our club sounds a bit more formal then yours (not that we're better, rudywa, just more formal). We do have committees and a BOD. We do run by Robert's Rules of Order. But then we are also incorporated and a 501(c)3 non-profit, so there are benefits to being a formal organization rather than a round-robin type of group.
But there are some of our 60+ members that I wouldn't trust not to burn the place down with a soldering iron, let alone install a switch machine.
Glad to hear your club is doing well, Brakie. Our is too, for the moment. LOL There's always something going on...most of it a tempest in a teapot.
simon1966,Thanks. That's exactly what Brakie and I are doing. We've known each other online for years, from both here and over at Atlas.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Rudywa,
I had to go back and re-read Paul's reply after reading yours and I did not interpret the same way as you at all. The discussion between Paul and Brakie has been very civil and I think just illustrates differences rather than dissing or stating "mine is better than yours". I have found it to be quite interesting as I am not a club member and have never operated a model RR with switch machines of any type. My layout and the large one at the local LHS both use manual Peco switches. Both Paul and Brakie have been simply discussing their own experience.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Paul,I don't know anything about your club but,we both know there are clubs that is ran by one member or a clique.I know of 2 off hand.
As far as Atlas switch machines they do stand up to our rather harsh operations.As I mention 6 hour operation twice a week is the norm plus open houses and other special shows-Toys for Tots,food pantry Boy Scouts,Cub Scouts and other groups...Remember the layout is point to point with passing sidings and those main line switch machines is contently being thrown for meets and they do wear out from time to time.My guess is one a year.Remember these switch machines has been in use since 93 except of course those that has been replace over the last 14 years.As for switch control we use a toggle switch/push button combination on the CTC board and a toggle switch on the yard panel for the few powered yard switches like the inbound/outbound, and runner tracks.The majority of the yard switches are CI ground throws.
The reason we allow any member to replace a switch machine is because we do not want to depend on any one member or even a committee to do a simple job when any member is capable of doing the job..Should it be something other then a switch machine then its referred to the electrical department-we don't use committees-and one of the E-Ms goes and handles the problem..However 97% of the time a switch machine has failed from years of use..
We have friendship cliques but,as you say that is normal.The last power clique 18 years ago almost killed the club and would have wasn't for 7 members including myself hanging tough by paying the bills out of our pockets and having a membership drive..The club you see today is far better then the old one and there are many safe guards to keep from having power plays.The biggest is equal voice and vote and all club activities is govern by popular membership vote.Even our trustees has no more say then the regular membership.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Brakie,I disagree with your club's reasons. The fact that there is a record at your club for the fewest minutes to replace an Atlas switch machine tells me that they aren't very reliable at all. At my club, we use nothing but Tortoise machines for all track switches (we're up to about 250 so far). And we've been using these for about 8 years. Not once has a Tortoise machine needed to be replaced, except for the one someone tried to drill through. (Ouch! You think they would stop once they saw green plastic coming out of the sawdust, but noooooo...)
I agree that Atlas switch machines are easy to replace (are you using above table machines?)...but a quality machine should never need replacing.
And what are you using for switch toggles? You aren't using the Atlas ones, are you?
As far as any member being able to replace them...at my club, we don't want just anyone to start replacing switch machines. That's why we have an Electrical Committee and it's chairman. If a switch stops working, a club member should go find the chairman or a committee member and inform them of the problem (if no one is there, write us a note). The commitee member will then determine the problem and fix it.
If any member felt that they could do anything they wanted to the layout without committee oversite (replacing switch machines, adding scenery, building benchwork, etc.), chaos would be the result at my club. For example, say a switch stops working. A fellow club member decides to fix it without telling anyone, and starts by replacing the machine...but it was the toggle that was bad, or a busted wire, or someone unplugged the power supply. Or in scenery, there's supposed to be an open pit mine, and someone builds a mountain instead, or a city, or a forest. Or someone decides that the new leg of the layout should begin, and starts using 4x4's, or pressure treated wood, or the #1 pine that was being saved for picture frames.
BTW, if any member wants to join a committee, all they have to do is sign up on our committee list in the meeting room. And to learn how to fix problems, all they have to do is ask.
And before you go on about cliques running clubs, we have monthly member business meetings, where the committee chairman are required to give written reports to the general membership, including any money spent during the month. The membership then has the ability to make any changes by making motions and getting it passed by simple majority. This is how my club chose to use Tortoise machines in the first place.
I won't deny there are cliques in my club...I think every club has them as some people just have more in common with other members. The point is not to let it get to the "us vs. them" category, which is when it becomes unhealthy to the club.
Paul,Simple really..Reliability and ease of maintenance.You see we wanted trouble free switch machines which ANY member can easily replace and so you will know,the use of the Atlas switch machines was voted on and pass by majority vote for that reason.The electricians just design the blocks and wiring which in turn had to be voted on for membership approval.You see our club is govern by the vote of the membership and not one person or cliques like one may find in some clubs.
tstage wrote:Wow! This thread is like the Enerizer bunny: It just keeps going...and going...and going...
Because some of us, namely me, need to learn to shut-up!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Brakie,You've commented a couple times here that your club layout works so well because you have professional electricians, etc. designing and building the electronics part of the layout.
Then may I ask you why are you guys using Atlas switch machines? (shudder) The worst switch machine this side of a train set switch. Even the under-the-table ones are...ick.
Gosh, if you're not going to use Tortoise or Switchmaster, at least go for the old NJ-type for at least they can route power and show switch indication.
If you haven't guessed, I can't stand Atlas switch machines. Ok for home layouts (goodness knows, I used to have a lot of them...all gone now), but for a club layout? Not for me. Never, if I can help it.
Paul,The only real "snap" we have is from Atlas switch machines when the switch is thrown.As far as noise whats that? 90% of our members are blue collar workers and pay no heed to minor noise like our white collar workers. The older goats can't hear to well anyway- well,so it seems.
We took a old half baked poorly design spaghetti bowl loop de loop layout and we redesign and rebuilt it to what it is today.We started in 91 and was finished in 92 and completely finished by 93.We been operating Friday night and Sunday Afternoon every since..The only "work" meetings is called as needed on Saturday for general clean up and maintenance.These meetings are usually followed by a pizza party and railroad videos.
Get this..If a Atlas switch machine burns out any member can replace it in about five minutes.I think the record stands at 3 minutes during a open house.
As far as DCC it was voted down so many times we finally tabled it.The vote was so lopsided it was actually sad..I think the most was 8 for votes out of 47..As one guy say why fix something that isn't broke? No,that was from a younger member.Sadly 3 out of the eight pro DCC votes quit.Oh well win some lose some.
jktrains,Did you know that you can get to F12 with just a UT4 throttle? That's only $65 (at Tony's), not $180 for a DT400 MSRP. I mentioned the computer option because it's one option, not nesscessarily the best one. BTW, I hear you can't keep the trains running when you unplug an NCE PowerCab unless you add something to the basic system. Sound familiar?
You go on to say that you've never heard of an EEPROM update from Digitrax...and how if the unit is upgraded, it will be gone for a couple weeks. Well that's only once every 10 years or so. Big deal. And yes, that's about how often Digitrax upgrades EEPROM's as, with one or two rare exceptions, Digitrax systems don't need to be upgraded constantly due to their superior peer-to-peer network, unlike the polled "master-slave" systems used by NCE and Lenz. Also, if you have more than booster with Digitrax, your layout doesn't have to be down and out while the system "brain" is away. Every Digitrax booster is also a command station, and can be used to run the layout until the "brain" returns.
As for the DT400 cord... You want a longer than 6' cord? Buy a 6-pin male-male connector, some flat phone cable and crimps, and make your own extension. For a coiled cord, splice it on to the existing cord and cut it off short or again, using a male-male connector, add your own coiled cord. If that doesn't satisfy you, open the throttle, void the warrenty, and do it that way. Digitrax will still fix the throttle if you ever break it, but they will simply charge you for it.
(sarcasm) I'll just keep my plain ol' Digitrax system...you know, the one that first came out with radio throttles years before anyone else? The one that first supported F9-F12? The one that first came out with bi-directional decoders? The one that was first with an integrated block detection and signalling system? Yeah, just that ol' backwards Digitrax system. I don't know how they ever stay in business...(/sarcasm)
Brakie,If you read my post, I was talking about 1) MY club, not yours, and 2) DC layouts in general, not yours. Please do not presume I'm talking about your club when I wasn't.
I spent 8 years running my club's old DC layout (ca. 1953 & 1978 to 1998). And from looking around New England layouts and in MR over the years, our DC set up was a fairly standard cab control design. I helped dozens of new members learn how to operate our old layout. And while some could pick it up like they designed it themselves, others couldn't figure it out for the life of them.
But as for DC vs. DCC hassle, here's some pics for you, Brakie. Here's the front of Cab 7 from our old club:
And here's the rear (note: wires were snipped when the Cab was removed):
We kept this Cab specifically just to show people why we went DCC.
And here's the northern terminal yard diagram I was talking about from my old club:
That diagram, BTW, is 6 feet long and hung from the ceiling about 4 to 6 feet from the operators in the yard.
But do you know what's interesting? We had a video made, professional quality, of one of our layout operations back in the late 1980's. Live sound, tripod pans, a little narration, etc. And everytime I show it to one of the new members, they always ask, "What's all that clicking and clacking sound in the background?" That's the operators flipping toggles, over and over and over again, they are told. They usually reply, "I'm glad we don't do that anymore, it'd drive me crazy." But when I show it to any older member, they don't even notice it. Funny, eh?
jktrains wrote: Paul3 wrote: jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.Paul A. Cutler III************That's my point exactly! You can't access function above F8 without adding something to the "basic" system. At DT400 = $180 list, add a computer and you need additonal hardware like a MS100 ($45), A Locobuffer ($75), add in the price of the software ($89+). That's a real simple solution to being able to access above F8. Also, I've never heard of an EPROM update from Digitrax. If there is an upgrade they require you to send in your command station - now you have no control system for your layout, and what kind of turnaround time when you send it in? A week, 2 weeks?Read page 51 of the Zephyr manual, "The units are not user servicable (opening the case voids your warranty)." That's why you're required to send the unit for an upgrade. Also, opening the case on a heldheld throttle also voids the warranty. So, if you buy a nonradio DT400, which comes a straight connecting cord, but want a longer cord or a coil cord, how do you change it. If you open the case, you void the warranty, so you're stuck with the length Digitrax gives you.If the way the get to F28 is by buying a new throttle (probably around $150+ since a DT400 is MSRP $180), I'll pick a different system that offers an easier way to upgrade the system. There is one out there that actually sends out a new EPROM when an upgrade is need and tells the user to open the case and insert it themselves. Sounds, alot easier, and quicker, to me. No downtime to the layout. jktrains
Paul3 wrote: jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.Paul A. Cutler III************
jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.
To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.
Paul A. Cutler III************
That's my point exactly! You can't access function above F8 without adding something to the "basic" system. At DT400 = $180 list, add a computer and you need additonal hardware like a MS100 ($45), A Locobuffer ($75), add in the price of the software ($89+). That's a real simple solution to being able to access above F8.
Also, I've never heard of an EPROM update from Digitrax. If there is an upgrade they require you to send in your command station - now you have no control system for your layout, and what kind of turnaround time when you send it in? A week, 2 weeks?
Read page 51 of the Zephyr manual, "The units are not user servicable (opening the case voids your warranty)." That's why you're required to send the unit for an upgrade. Also, opening the case on a heldheld throttle also voids the warranty. So, if you buy a nonradio DT400, which comes a straight connecting cord, but want a longer cord or a coil cord, how do you change it. If you open the case, you void the warranty, so you're stuck with the length Digitrax gives you.
If the way the get to F28 is by buying a new throttle (probably around $150+ since a DT400 is MSRP $180), I'll pick a different system that offers an easier way to upgrade the system. There is one out there that actually sends out a new EPROM when an upgrade is need and tells the user to open the case and insert it themselves. Sounds, alot easier, and quicker, to me. No downtime to the layout.
jktrains
What DCC system are you using?
BRAKIE wrote: One member's wife observed our operation is like a well rehearse stage play everybody knows his part even the stand ins..Its harder to learn the main line then it is the yard-except the working hump.Simon,If you are ever in these parts on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon you are more then welcome to attend a operation session and run a train or three.
One member's wife observed our operation is like a well rehearse stage play everybody knows his part even the stand ins..
Its harder to learn the main line then it is the yard-except the working hump.
Simon,If you are ever in these parts on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon you are more then welcome to attend a operation session and run a train or three.
Larry you tease! You add these little extra snippets like "working hump" just to tantalize us more. I just might have to find an excuse to visit OSU Med Center one Friday!!
Well JKtrains it looks like we are actually in almost total agreement. DCC is the way to go and the ability to expand and grow as layout, and technology changes demand is also important. Perhaps what we don't agree on is the approach of Digitrax specifically to managing these changes and enhancements. I have always been impressed by the way that older Digitrax equipment can coexist in a Loconet environment without becoming obsolete. I like the fact that I can add components to my Zephyr, even a new command station if I want, and I don't lose the capabilities of the Zephyr box. There is never a feeling that money was wasted as the older components still continue to serve a purpose.
I do think that Digitrax faces a real challenge in the coming months. How they manage the addition of the new functions and the purported release of new radio is going to be very telling. My expectation is that I will be able to benefit from these new features. But who knows, maybe it will be a complete new command station that they are coming out with?
Simon,First the club is very fortunate to have 2 professional electricians and a electrical contractor as members..These guys not only design the wiring but,they made sure that each block was long enough to do the job without interference from other yard cabs.You will need to throw a toggle switch to gain that section..You must get permission from the yard master.There is a red/green light for all shared yard trackage.Red of course means its under control of the yard master..Green means you control this section..Upon finishing your task you flip the toggle back to "YM" its as simple as that.Same applies to the passenger terminal..
Simon,
I have used, on many occassions, a Digitrax system so I'm very familiar with what it can and cannot do. I have in fact spent hours trying to figure out why it wouldn't work, but that's another issue.
The original question posed was is "DCC worth the price?" My answer would of course be yes, its worth the price, but figuratively and literally. As part of the discussion people started expousing on cost/benefit of one system versus another. When the subject of outgrowing a system was raised, the talk primarily was centered on could a person's layout out grow a Zephyr. Based on the original question, which included not wanting to get a starter system that would be outgrown, or become obsolete, there are other areas to consider that weren't being addressed, such as upgrading the command station to take advantage of advances in DCC technology. These a areas should be considered.
Since analogies were being used previously, I'll through out some more. One would be like buying a basic computer with a minimum of hardware and software installed. Sure you could add the other hardware and software you need to accomplish what you want, but will the system be able to handle the add-ons and still perform at optimum levels or would you have been better off spending the additional money and getting a computer that was designed to handle everything you wanted to do from the very beginning. Usually by the time you start adding up the costs of the add-ons and upgrades you'd have been better off buying the next level computer. For example, MS just came out with the new Vista operating system, it's sounds great, but if I have to add a new harddrive, graphics card and memory to my existing computer is it worth it, or maybe its better buying a whole new systems designed to meeting the requirements of Vista. That then becomes a personal decision, but before I can make that decision I need to know all the facts, including how that computer can be upgraded to meet future technological advances. Too a degree, evaluating what DCC system to buy is similar. Ideally, you only want to buy one.
Simon, also consider that I haven't discussed items such as ease of use of throttles, components, consisting, screen presentations etc that are different between the systems. I focused on how they can meet the demands of chaning technology, not the layout. Once a layout is designed, the power demands for it don't really change over time, unless it is expanded. So that system that works today should work for that layout 2 years or 5 years from now or more. What changes is the equipment run on the layout and the technology in it. And that's what wasn't being addressed - can it keep up with tech changes.
BRAKIE wrote: Paul,I know you are tooting the DCC horn for all its worth but please do not presume you know anything about the club.The wiring and blocks was done by professional electricians you will find NO spaghetti bowl wiring.Each yard cab has a clearly labeled schematic and each yard cab is a breeze to operate YOU could learn it in just a few minutes time..Any yard cab can access the inbound/outbound tracks by a flip of the toggle as well as the DS when he assigns power to a section of track-we use CM20 walk around throttles..The is NO block overkill found on the club's layout like you find on most club layouts.As far as DCC it has been decided its not worth the hassle..Personally I would hate to have to address EACH locomotive before I could move it as I stated I did that once and by nights end felt like a accountant.
Paul,I know you are tooting the DCC horn for all its worth but please do not presume you know anything about the club.The wiring and blocks was done by professional electricians you will find NO spaghetti bowl wiring.Each yard cab has a clearly labeled schematic and each yard cab is a breeze to operate YOU could learn it in just a few minutes time..Any yard cab can access the inbound/outbound tracks by a flip of the toggle as well as the DS when he assigns power to a section of track-we use CM20 walk around throttles..The is NO block overkill found on the club's layout like you find on most club layouts.
As far as DCC it has been decided its not worth the hassle..Personally I would hate to have to address EACH locomotive before I could move it as I stated I did that once and by nights end felt like a accountant.
Larry, I would love to see your club layout one day, it sounds really impressive. Your post here in some ways is the perfect point/counterpoint to the whole discussion. On the one hand you have a superb DC block installation that functions really well. On the other hand look what you described as how your club got to that point "professional electricians" central control implied by the DS assigning power to a track section. What you are describing is a highly complex installation that I suspect took a lot of man hours in design and installation. I can't blame you for not wanting to change that. DCC installation would have been trivial by comparison. I am in no way knocking what your club has accomplished. In fact is sounds like it is a truly masterful implementation. However, I suspect that it is beyond the capability and scope of most of us to implement. DCC opens that operational capability to those that don't have the electrical skills to create a system as elegant as yours.