Paul3 wrote: jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.Paul A. Cutler III************
jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.
To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.
Paul A. Cutler III************
That's my point exactly! You can't access function above F8 without adding something to the "basic" system. At DT400 = $180 list, add a computer and you need additonal hardware like a MS100 ($45), A Locobuffer ($75), add in the price of the software ($89+). That's a real simple solution to being able to access above F8.
Also, I've never heard of an EPROM update from Digitrax. If there is an upgrade they require you to send in your command station - now you have no control system for your layout, and what kind of turnaround time when you send it in? A week, 2 weeks?
Read page 51 of the Zephyr manual, "The units are not user servicable (opening the case voids your warranty)." That's why you're required to send the unit for an upgrade. Also, opening the case on a heldheld throttle also voids the warranty. So, if you buy a nonradio DT400, which comes a straight connecting cord, but want a longer cord or a coil cord, how do you change it. If you open the case, you void the warranty, so you're stuck with the length Digitrax gives you.
If the way the get to F28 is by buying a new throttle (probably around $150+ since a DT400 is MSRP $180), I'll pick a different system that offers an easier way to upgrade the system. There is one out there that actually sends out a new EPROM when an upgrade is need and tells the user to open the case and insert it themselves. Sounds, alot easier, and quicker, to me. No downtime to the layout.
jktrains
Rudy, my reasons (or lack thereof) for peferring a stick are not nearly as scientific. I just seem to enjoy driving one more. Or maybe it is the peace of mind from knowing that my wife can't drive my car!
I'm afraid that when it comes to government and politicians I tend to violate my own rules of labeling.....and name calling! But, in the interest of peace, we won't go down that path.
- Mark
Thanks, Larry. You answered my question, which was more to do with the length between blocks as a limiting factor in the lengths of trains that can, and must, fit within the confines of any one block. So, I also understand now that your blocks do accommodate long passenger trains.
-Crandell
Brakie,DC operations is hardly as easy as "1, 2, 3" for most cab controlled layouts that I've experienced.
For example, at my club's old layout, the northern terminal (ca. 1955) had a freight yard cab (5 blocks), a passenger terminal/coach yard cab (5 blocks), and an engine facility cab (18 blocks). Each of these cabs could be interlocked together so that the freight cab could run a passenger train, or that the passenger cab could turn a car on the turntable, etc. To figure out how to get a specific loco running, not only did one have to line up the switches, one also had to figure which toggles to throw by consulting large painted diagrams hanging over the layout or by careful reading of a nearby clipboard. I knew the yard well, and operated it almost monthly for 5 years.
We had a similar yard over on the southern terminal (ca. 1978), but even tho' I was a fully qualified yardman, I could not figure out how to successfully operate a train in the southern terminal. The track diagrams were terribly confusing to read, and the blocks just...seemed illogical to me. Instead of using the switches to route power, each track had it's own toggle. And instead of having one block for the switch lead, it was cut up several times. And cab interlockings? Whew. I had all kinds of trouble figuring out that yard.
Now compare that to DCC. As long as I know how to operate the throttle, I can operate anywhere as long as I can throw switches. I don't have to know where the yard blocks are, I don't have to know where I can park engines, I don't have to figure out how to turn on one cab so that I can access another cab's blocks...none of it.
So while some DC can be pretty easy if doesn't have too many blocks, big DC layouts can be far, far worse than the most complex DCC layout (and it still won't do as much).
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
selector wrote: Just a quick interjection, then I'll shut up.If I decided that I wanted to pull every lighted passenger car I own (it's a mixture of six, but let's say it was 12, all heavies), and my DC blocks were only able to accommodate 4 of them plus my the Niagara, how would I do that? Don't DC blocks severely limit what I can do in many ways on a small layout? Whereas in DCC, I can run every loco consisted and have them pull every car I own, no matter if a caboose or a tank car, and I would only have to worry about a reversing loop. On the main, or in the yard, I could let 'er rip.Yes, I am asking about a rare, even a bizarre, likelihood, it just seems that DC requires so much more fiddling. The "f" that may apply to DCC is finicky as far as track cleanliness is concerned, but that is easily managed. After you have cleaned, it should be clean running...IMO. The only switches thrown should be ones with points.At least, that is my understanding about DC...am I right?
Just a quick interjection, then I'll shut up.
If I decided that I wanted to pull every lighted passenger car I own (it's a mixture of six, but let's say it was 12, all heavies), and my DC blocks were only able to accommodate 4 of them plus my the Niagara, how would I do that? Don't DC blocks severely limit what I can do in many ways on a small layout? Whereas in DCC, I can run every loco consisted and have them pull every car I own, no matter if a caboose or a tank car, and I would only have to worry about a reversing loop. On the main, or in the yard, I could let 'er rip.
Yes, I am asking about a rare, even a bizarre, likelihood, it just seems that DC requires so much more fiddling. The "f" that may apply to DCC is finicky as far as track cleanliness is concerned, but that is easily managed. After you have cleaned, it should be clean running...IMO. The only switches thrown should be ones with points.
At least, that is my understanding about DC...am I right?
Not exactly true..We run 12 car lighted passenger trains without out any problems even on a single track point to point layout.DC requires NO fiddling as such.After the end car as pass the block all that is require is a flip of a toggle switch and a flip of a switch control to open the passing siding switch,the signal turns from RED to GREEN and the train in the siding is ready to continue its trip..All of this is done by a DS with a CTC board.
The sad part is most modelers has no idea what DC can do with a CTC board,properly design layout, blocks and yard panals.It is NOT uncommon to see one train leaving the yard as another arrives while the yard switcher goes about its work.You could see a outbound set of road power roll up the "runner" track on their way to their assigned outbound train..This takes place every club operation session.This type of DC operation been going long before DCC was even thought of.In fact the first time I saw this type of operation was at the Columbus(Oh) Model Railroad Club in the early 60s.
I have also seen many layouts with block overkill when in all truth only half was really needed.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The Zephyr sounds like the way to go, its feeling more and more like the perfect choice for a beginner, and the fact that it doesn't have a walkaround throttle is ok for me right now.
-beegle55
jktrains wrote: Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.Digitrax website lists Zephyr as a basic set. States you can access function F0-F8 only. As sound equipped engines become more popular and the number of functions expand, how do you access all the functions then? A MRC sound decoder has up through F19, Soundtraxx Tsunami - F14.The Zephyr maybe a good starter system, but it has its limits. I'll go back to the main recommnedation - before you buy a system, go online and read the manuals for each see what you can and cannot understand and let that guide you decision.
Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.
Digitrax website lists Zephyr as a basic set. States you can access function F0-F8 only. As sound equipped engines become more popular and the number of functions expand, how do you access all the functions then? A MRC sound decoder has up through F19, Soundtraxx Tsunami - F14.
The Zephyr maybe a good starter system, but it has its limits.
I'll go back to the main recommnedation - before you buy a system, go online and read the manuals for each see what you can and cannot understand and let that guide you decision.
By adding my $64 walk around throttle (which I realize you don't count because it involves spending more money) my Zephyr controlled system now runs up to F12 with no modification or upgrade being needed to the command station. Having said that, I rarely use anything but the whistle, bell and coupler crash. All the other sounds I care about are managed automatically. High number function support is IMO an area that needs some serious design work. I don't want a throttle with 28 function buttons to hunt through. I don't want to have to press Shift of Fnc key to access extra banks of functions, I don't want to have to scroll through menus. I just want to run trains and the less time I have to spend fiddling around with a throttle trying to access F23 to activate some obscure sound the better. The reality is that most of us will not remember what all the functions do without some sort of text or graphic display. Since the mapping of the different sounds to the functions numbers are different from one decoder manufacturer to another this becomes a really impractical proposition. My guess is that if you did a poll you would find that most of us rarely use these functions.
Digitrax has indicated that they will be offering higher level function support in 2007. This is not altogether surprising as they are attempting to enter the sound decoder market. Exactly how they plan to do this, I do not know. However based on past history I am very confident that as a Zephyr user I will be in a position to benefit from any enhancements that they come out with.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Texas Zepher wrote: Driline wrote:Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle. Well if you call that monster two handed beast thing, a walk around throttle. I much prefer to leave it on the shelf and add a utility throttle (cab04) to walk around and run the trains with.
Driline wrote:Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle.
LOL
I agree, Rudy. I really do not like labeling or name calling in these debates. That's probably why I hate listening to politicians and talk radio. I have also gone through "cooling off periods" with this forum for much the same reason.
I've tried to be careful to make sure people know there is no right or wrong answer to this sort of question, nor is there any one-size-fits-all guide to when one or the other is better. Folks need to read, ask questions, read some more, ask more questions and essentially do what a wise consumer does before making a significant purchase. In that equation is considering what the person wants to do and their comfort zone. Getting some hands-on experience, if available, is a big help provided the "tutor" is a good teacher (which I generally am not).
But it's a little like asking "is an automatic transmission better than a stick shift?"
If DC and manual transmissions are "old school," I'm wondering where I stand. I use DCC and prefer it for my own application, but I'd much rather drive a stick! Hmm.
None of that makes me any better or worse than Larry, or make my decisions right for his circumstances or his right for mine.
Beegle55,
I converted back last Thanksgiving using the Digitrax Super Chief. With a 3' by 15' Water wing shaped layout, I decided to not go with with wireless control. After running some trains, I seemed ok with DCC. After I set up some simple speed tables, and programmed in some momentum and did a little switching, that's when DCC really sold me. I have never been able to run the slower speeds for switching and just general creeping around like I have with DCC. All my roadswitchers now run at about 60 scale MPH at full throttle, so 50% is my usual cruising speed. Things do not stall, run jerky, and mu'ing diesels together is a snap. You can make fine adjustments to your speed tables to get multiple units in perfect unison. However, make darn sure your track is clean, no left-over dried goobers of glue and paint should be on the rail heads. This will disrupt the signal. A little fine tuning of the trackwork and locomotives will ensure some great performance. Oh, and it's nice not to worry about what block you're in.
So, if you plan to operate at protoypical speeds, especially any SLOW running, and you like having limitless flexibility that cannot be done with cab control, then YES DCC is worth the investment. My next layout, to be started this summer, will have NO insulated rail joiners, NO control panel, and MUCH LESS wire.
If you would rather just watch trains run, aren't too concerned about very slow running, and cab control doesn't hinder how you operate, then you might think twice. And there are some nice running DC layouts.
Good luck!
JD - long live the ol' Southeastern!
I feel disappointed that people have to stoop to labeling some as "old school" once those of you that are young grow older you will understand, (another benefit of old school) experience=wisdom and knowledge. We all have different tastes, that is what makes us unique and different, but we do not have to label others to make ourselves feel better. I hope those of you who have done this will refrain in an effort to keep this a productive forum and one in which all ideas are welcome. Some years ago, I had a quote of niche I believe and it stated, Everything has been done before, the problem is to figure out how to do it again.
Now let's see what the Zephyr REALLY does..
Zephyr Offers:
Simple to use controls for running trains.
Large speed control knob and direction switch with brake.
Full numeric key pad.
Easy 2 and 4 digit addressing.
Smooth speed control.
Run multiple trains at once without blocking!
Run up to 10 addresses at the same time on your system.
Run up to 10 throttles at the same time on your system.
Jump Ports for using DC power packs as additional throttles
Use one or two smooth DC power packs as throttles to control DCC equipped locomotives.
Simple, cost effective way to add more throttles to your Zephyr set.
Makes it easy to share the fun of DCC with layout visitors and young operators.
Functions on locos controlled by Jump throttles remain active.
Over 9000 Locomotive Addresses
Use Address 00 to run one or more locos without DCC decoders
Two Digit Addressing is easy to use. (Address 01-127)
Four Digit Addressing-use the number painted on your engines as its address.
2.5 Amps of Power to run multiple trains.
Function Control
Control 10 functions-F0 through F8.
Function 2 is a special non-latching key that can be used to sound the horn for as long as the key is held down.
Constant brightness lighting. Headlights can be directional or independently controlled (depending on decoder).
Stationary Decoders, Turnout Control & Turnout Position Reporting
Access to stationary decoder control for turnouts and other devices.
Control 999 stationary decoder addresses.
Consisting
Universal consisting, Digitrax preferred method. ALL locos can be consisted, even analog locos.
Advanced consisting, allows only advanced consist capable mobile decoders.
Basic consisting, program decoders to run on same address.
Decoder Programming
Built in read/write programmer that can read and write all CVs.
Supports Paged programming (Digitrax preferred method). Also supports direct & register mode programming.
Operations mode programming can be used to program decoders on the layout.
Expandability with Digitrax LocoNet
Use Zephyr as a starting point for your Digitrax LocoNet System, then add components.
Use Zephyr as an expansion set with Digitrax equipment you already have installed.
Add Radio or IR via LocoNet. Just plug in a UR90 or UR91 receiver and add IR and/or Radio throttles.
jktrains wrote:Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.
As a matter of fact, you can. The EPROM inside the command stations is in a socket and could be replaced very easily. That is not something Digitrax advertises, but having seen the insides of a DB150 and DCS100, it is a fact. I would bet the design of the Zephyr is the same in that respect.
As for the recommendation about downloading and reading the manuals before buying, I would make that same recommendation about DCC or almost anything else. I have a hard drive full of manuals ranging from Digitrax stuff to lawn mowers, refrigerators, TV's etc. Like any other purchase, knowing what you are about to buy is a very big step towards both satisfaction with the product and avoiding purchasing mistakes.
Simon,Our control panel is so straight forward you could catch on in a few mintues..All of our yard panels was design that way by members that are professional electricians.How simple? IF you can follow a labeled track schematic you are good to go.
Dave,I am far from old school having use DCC and Sound on my last room size layout.Sadly,I didn't even get to finish the layout because the State bought my house so they could build another stinking access road.I just like showing both sides of the coin and what is available as a option.
As far as that night of DCC operation I moved or consisted close to 60 locomotives in 4 hours without problems and like I said after the operation session I did feel like a accountant.In comparison in our normal 6 hour club operation as a hustler I will move close to 70-75 locomotives to and from the inbound/outbound yard tracks and to and from the passenger terminal.
BRAKIE wrote: About 3 years ago I was invited to operate on a full basement size DCC layout..It was enjoyable but,I felt like a accountant by the time the operation session was over..The following Friday I was more then happy to return to DC operations on the club's layout..There was no stinking addresses to punch into the throttle before I could move a engine to where it was needed..All I had to do as a hostler at the club is flip toggle switches and add the engine to a outbound train,remove it from the inbound train and take it to the roundhouse area or to the outbound ready tracks.Easy as 1,2,3..
About 3 years ago I was invited to operate on a full basement size DCC layout..It was enjoyable but,I felt like a accountant by the time the operation session was over..The following Friday I was more then happy to return to DC operations on the club's layout..There was no stinking addresses to punch into the throttle before I could move a engine to where it was needed..All I had to do as a hostler at the club is flip toggle switches and add the engine to a outbound train,remove it from the inbound train and take it to the roundhouse area or to the outbound ready tracks.Easy as 1,2,3..
Brakie, you describe a perfect example where a switch to DCC may not be a good idea. Your club has a rock solid well designed DC block implementation that you are very comfortable with and is apparently easy to operate. It is easy as 1,2,3 to you because you are very familiar with it. Now my experience has been the exact opposite. I had the chance to run a large DC system a couple of years back and I found it utterly confusing figuring out which toggle switches to use to keep my loco switched to my cab. I like the simplicity of selecting a loco and being able to run anywhere on the layout without having to worry about anything except turnouts and my route. The other thing to consider is the wiring. In your club example the wiring is in place and functioning well. For a new installation the difference in wiring complexity for DC and DCC to accomplish the activities you described is astonishing. Often when people are considering the cost of DCC and comparing it to DC I don't think that they appreciate the cost savings of eliminating a complex switched block system.
Anyway, the upshot of all this is that DCC is the flavor of the month and I personally would not suggest anyone build a new layout without giving it serious consideration. For older, well established layouts I don't think it is at all clear cut. Conversion may not be trivial. Conversion will likely be very costly. But more importantly if things are working well and the members/operators don't have the desire or interest to make the conversion, why bother. If DC is serving you well, why not continue to enjoy it?
ukrailroader wrote: Hi beegle55,I went DCC about a year ago with a Digitrax Chief set and have not regretted it. The operating possibilities are far in advance of DC. I was so impressed with DCC that I managed to arrange a demonstration at my club and they have now gone DCC on a switchable layout. On operating nights the sounds from our sound equipped locos can make you think it is a real railroad. I went for Digitrax because they have the biggest slice of the DCC cake in the US.ukrailroader (UK)
Hi beegle55,
I went DCC about a year ago with a Digitrax Chief set and have not regretted it. The operating possibilities are far in advance of DC. I was so impressed with DCC that I managed to arrange a demonstration at my club and they have now gone DCC on a switchable layout. On operating nights the sounds from our sound equipped locos can make you think it is a real railroad.
I went for Digitrax because they have the biggest slice of the DCC cake in the US.
ukrailroader (UK)
Hi From Australia,
I'm a little bit late joining this thread but it takes a while longer to reach us downunder. DCC for me was the best possible move. I have been using the NCE Procab for about 4 years and now run mainly sounded locos. The flexibility and ease of using DCC cannot be overstated. I have a preference for the NCE system but like many have already suggested it would be wise to try before you buy. For a starter system I find it hard to go past the NCE Power Cab. I have one which I use on my portable shelf layout as a stand alone system and it then simply plugs into my Pro Cab system on my main layout and gives me a fully functional additional throttle. I was one of the first in my local area to take the plunge to DCC and I have no regrets. Several DC purists have had a change of heart once they experience the freedom and excitement of using DCC and leave my train room with a smile and some new ideas. I also believe that the the constant development in the DCC electronics show the way to the future. Anyway enjoy what you do.
Regards from Downunder - Chris
rrinker wrote: Also, you can't get a Lenz anything for under $200. The Set 90 is $230 plus a power supply. A Zephyr plus UT4 is less than that AND would have far more funcitonatility, not to mention a total of FOUR throttles (the UT4, the Zephyr console, and 2 jump ports if you didn;t thow out your DC power packs). The only sub-$200 sets with a handheld of any sort are the Prodigy Express and NCE Powercab, and only the Prodigy Express would allow you to unplug the cab and move elsewhere. Neither has a dedicate program track, and the PE can not read back CV values. --Randy
Also, you can't get a Lenz anything for under $200. The Set 90 is $230 plus a power supply. A Zephyr plus UT4 is less than that AND would have far more funcitonatility, not to mention a total of FOUR throttles (the UT4, the Zephyr console, and 2 jump ports if you didn;t thow out your DC power packs).
The only sub-$200 sets with a handheld of any sort are the Prodigy Express and NCE Powercab, and only the Prodigy Express would allow you to unplug the cab and move elsewhere. Neither has a dedicate program track, and the PE can not read back CV values.
--Randy
Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle. Nuff said..........
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A decent non-sound decoder from NCE costs $11.99 if you buy a 10 pack of them from Empire Northern. D13SRJ, 10 pack $119.95. I use them in most anythign that there isn't a specific form factor decoder for (like the DH163L0 from Digitrax for P2K, or the NCE SW-SR for P2K SW switchers).
simon1966 wrote: Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.Sure it does, for $64 you can get a UT 4 and have a true walk around throttle, you can add up to 10 of them if you so choose by simply adding $15 dual connector panels around the layout.
Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.
BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.
Here is the facts.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.
Sure it does, for $64 you can get a UT 4 and have a true walk around throttle, you can add up to 10 of them if you so choose by simply adding $15 dual connector panels around the layout.
Ummmm....No it does'nt. The Zephyr starter set DOES NOT INCLUDE A WALK AROUND THROTTLE. Thats EXTRA!!!
Thats like saying, sure the Zephyr has radio control... blah blah blah....BUT YOU PAY FOR IT! Thats true with any of the starter sets.
So, if you have less than $200 to spend and want a starter set with a walk around throttle, then you need to look at the following three sets..
1) NCE Power CAB $139.99
2) MRC Prodigy Express ???
3) Lenz ???
I may have missed some other starter sets....but you get the point.
That was a dealbreaker for me. I HAD to have a walkaround throttle, so my choices were limited to the above three.