Regarding DCC vs. DC -
If I had to wire my layout for DC it would be a LOT more complex, and construction would be even slower than it already is! Using DCC means I didn't have to plan out an elaborate (or even simple) block control system. All I have to worry about when it comes to that is where to put insulated rail joiners to isolate sections of the layout for future power districts.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
selector wrote:...unless, Mark, it's to emulate the poor buggers in the lockout towers. Didn't they have to run here, run there, and throw switches?Nice to hear from you again, BTW.-Crandell
...unless, Mark, it's to emulate the poor buggers in the lockout towers. Didn't they have to run here, run there, and throw switches?
Nice to hear from you again, BTW.
-Crandell
rudywa wrote:Man, this is when I go through and uncheck my e-mail me replies throughout this topic, when members become arrogant about their "my club is better than your club" and have to "dis" Atlas switch machines, this is really immature. I think that we all have what we like, we can debate features but to insist that Tortise is the only "good" switch machine out there is really out of line. Atlas has been around many many more years than tortise and does not require "major" modifications to layout or other problems of wiring and switch levers, etc. My layout is on a table-Masonite with Foam placed on a table, so tortise is just out of the question. Tortise does not apply to everything and to insist that "mine is better than yours" attitude is why I have unchecked my e-mail me replies. It is too bad that some problem children have to ruin a good discussion by this sort of behavior. Oh, and your claim that Tortise machines do not break down is an absolute falsehood, no manufacturer or machine is perfect, especially when they are so new on the market compared to Atlas. "Can't we all just get along?"
Man, this is when I go through and uncheck my e-mail me replies throughout this topic, when members become arrogant about their "my club is better than your club" and have to "dis" Atlas switch machines, this is really immature. I think that we all have what we like, we can debate features but to insist that Tortise is the only "good" switch machine out there is really out of line. Atlas has been around many many more years than tortise and does not require "major" modifications to layout or other problems of wiring and switch levers, etc. My layout is on a table-Masonite with Foam placed on a table, so tortise is just out of the question. Tortise does not apply to everything and to insist that "mine is better than yours" attitude is why I have unchecked my e-mail me replies. It is too bad that some problem children have to ruin a good discussion by this sort of behavior. Oh, and your claim that Tortise machines do not break down is an absolute falsehood, no manufacturer or machine is perfect, especially when they are so new on the market compared to Atlas.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Nobody who wants a prototypical nice looking layout uses atlas "snap" switch machines. They are more "toylike" in appearance IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I started out with atlas switch machines when I was a kid, but after many years in model railroading I grew up to use ATLAS code 83 brown switches,walthers code 83, shinohara, microengineering etc........ and used tortoise to throw them and caboose ground throws.
marknewton wrote: rudywa wrote:I Love the original idea of DC operation, blocks and the like. It just charms me with the ingenuity of making it all work realisticallyI think you've hit upon the real reason so many "old-school" DC users are hostile towards DCC. They've come to believe that the compromises and work-arounds that DC entails somehow emulate realistic operations.They don't...
rudywa wrote:I Love the original idea of DC operation, blocks and the like. It just charms me with the ingenuity of making it all work realistically
rudywa,It would curteous of you to actually read the posts before making comments about the apparent maturity or lack thereof of the posters.
At no point has either one of us said that "my club is better than your club". You have made that up. I did disagree with his club's decision, but then I'm still allowed to, right? His club's direction is not mine. And that's okay. It's still a free country last I checked.
At no point have I said that the Tortoise is the only good switch machine. You have made that up, too. In fact, I also mentioned Switchmaster, earlier.
The fact that Atlas has been around longer than Circuitron is irrelevant. Mantua has been around a lot longer than just about anyone, but that doesn't mean that they make a better product than Overland.
The Tortoise is, IMHO, the best quality switch machine...period. The Atlas switch machine is, IMHO, at right next to the bottom, with only Life-Like, Tyco, and other snap-switch train set manufacturers below them. Why is that? If realism is the name of the game then:
Tortoise pros:1). Realistic slow motion throwing action that's completely adjustable.2). Under the table mounting does not have giant unrealistic solenoid next to track.3). A realistic quiet throwing motion, with no snappings.4). Has internal DPDT switch to power frogs and position indication lights.5). High reliability, with no failures in over 250 installations in my club.6). Low amperage requirements means not having to have a capacitor discharge unit to throw mulitple switches at one time.
Tortoise cons:a). At $16 ea. (at Tony's), they ain't cheap.b). As under the table mounts, they aren't very shallow, meaning that they can cause problems by running into structural parts of the benchwork.c). They are not a "snap" to install as it takes some skill to line them up correctly.
Atlas pros:1). They are inexpensive.2). They are easy to install on any Atlas switch.3). They don't require any layout modification what-so-ever.
Atlas cons:a). Soleniod power results in unrealistic abrupt throwing motion.b). Above table mounting results in large, unrealistic lump next to switch.c). Soleniod use causes snapping sound when activated.d). Has no ability to route frog power or drive light indication.e). Can be melted if the button is held down too long.f). Needs a capacitor discharge unit to drive multiple motors at one time.
Now, as to your problem with unchecking your e-mail replies...should that somehow effect us? I would never check that box because any thread, at any time, could suddenly explode into a mailstrom of posting. And who wants a hundred e-mails when you can just go to the Forum and read them?
As to my claim that Tortoise machines don't break down...sorry, so far that's the truth. As I've said, my club has installed over 250 of them over the last 8 years or so, and not one has been replaced (other than the one that was drilled through). Call me a liar if you want to, but them's the facts, bud. If you want to see the club layout, go to www.ssmrc.org
And you know, we'd all just "get along" if people wouldn't come into a post with a can of gas and a match...
Brakie,I agree, there are some very cliquey clubs around...no doubt. But my club, like yours, is very democratic. It's the only way the club could survive for 69 years like it has.
Our club sounds a bit more formal then yours (not that we're better, rudywa, just more formal). We do have committees and a BOD. We do run by Robert's Rules of Order. But then we are also incorporated and a 501(c)3 non-profit, so there are benefits to being a formal organization rather than a round-robin type of group.
But there are some of our 60+ members that I wouldn't trust not to burn the place down with a soldering iron, let alone install a switch machine.
Glad to hear your club is doing well, Brakie. Our is too, for the moment. LOL There's always something going on...most of it a tempest in a teapot.
simon1966,Thanks. That's exactly what Brakie and I are doing. We've known each other online for years, from both here and over at Atlas.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Rudywa,
I had to go back and re-read Paul's reply after reading yours and I did not interpret the same way as you at all. The discussion between Paul and Brakie has been very civil and I think just illustrates differences rather than dissing or stating "mine is better than yours". I have found it to be quite interesting as I am not a club member and have never operated a model RR with switch machines of any type. My layout and the large one at the local LHS both use manual Peco switches. Both Paul and Brakie have been simply discussing their own experience.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Paul,I don't know anything about your club but,we both know there are clubs that is ran by one member or a clique.I know of 2 off hand.
As far as Atlas switch machines they do stand up to our rather harsh operations.As I mention 6 hour operation twice a week is the norm plus open houses and other special shows-Toys for Tots,food pantry Boy Scouts,Cub Scouts and other groups...Remember the layout is point to point with passing sidings and those main line switch machines is contently being thrown for meets and they do wear out from time to time.My guess is one a year.Remember these switch machines has been in use since 93 except of course those that has been replace over the last 14 years.As for switch control we use a toggle switch/push button combination on the CTC board and a toggle switch on the yard panel for the few powered yard switches like the inbound/outbound, and runner tracks.The majority of the yard switches are CI ground throws.
The reason we allow any member to replace a switch machine is because we do not want to depend on any one member or even a committee to do a simple job when any member is capable of doing the job..Should it be something other then a switch machine then its referred to the electrical department-we don't use committees-and one of the E-Ms goes and handles the problem..However 97% of the time a switch machine has failed from years of use..
We have friendship cliques but,as you say that is normal.The last power clique 18 years ago almost killed the club and would have wasn't for 7 members including myself hanging tough by paying the bills out of our pockets and having a membership drive..The club you see today is far better then the old one and there are many safe guards to keep from having power plays.The biggest is equal voice and vote and all club activities is govern by popular membership vote.Even our trustees has no more say then the regular membership.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Brakie,I disagree with your club's reasons. The fact that there is a record at your club for the fewest minutes to replace an Atlas switch machine tells me that they aren't very reliable at all. At my club, we use nothing but Tortoise machines for all track switches (we're up to about 250 so far). And we've been using these for about 8 years. Not once has a Tortoise machine needed to be replaced, except for the one someone tried to drill through. (Ouch! You think they would stop once they saw green plastic coming out of the sawdust, but noooooo...)
I agree that Atlas switch machines are easy to replace (are you using above table machines?)...but a quality machine should never need replacing.
And what are you using for switch toggles? You aren't using the Atlas ones, are you?
As far as any member being able to replace them...at my club, we don't want just anyone to start replacing switch machines. That's why we have an Electrical Committee and it's chairman. If a switch stops working, a club member should go find the chairman or a committee member and inform them of the problem (if no one is there, write us a note). The commitee member will then determine the problem and fix it.
If any member felt that they could do anything they wanted to the layout without committee oversite (replacing switch machines, adding scenery, building benchwork, etc.), chaos would be the result at my club. For example, say a switch stops working. A fellow club member decides to fix it without telling anyone, and starts by replacing the machine...but it was the toggle that was bad, or a busted wire, or someone unplugged the power supply. Or in scenery, there's supposed to be an open pit mine, and someone builds a mountain instead, or a city, or a forest. Or someone decides that the new leg of the layout should begin, and starts using 4x4's, or pressure treated wood, or the #1 pine that was being saved for picture frames.
BTW, if any member wants to join a committee, all they have to do is sign up on our committee list in the meeting room. And to learn how to fix problems, all they have to do is ask.
And before you go on about cliques running clubs, we have monthly member business meetings, where the committee chairman are required to give written reports to the general membership, including any money spent during the month. The membership then has the ability to make any changes by making motions and getting it passed by simple majority. This is how my club chose to use Tortoise machines in the first place.
I won't deny there are cliques in my club...I think every club has them as some people just have more in common with other members. The point is not to let it get to the "us vs. them" category, which is when it becomes unhealthy to the club.
Paul,Simple really..Reliability and ease of maintenance.You see we wanted trouble free switch machines which ANY member can easily replace and so you will know,the use of the Atlas switch machines was voted on and pass by majority vote for that reason.The electricians just design the blocks and wiring which in turn had to be voted on for membership approval.You see our club is govern by the vote of the membership and not one person or cliques like one may find in some clubs.
tstage wrote:Wow! This thread is like the Enerizer bunny: It just keeps going...and going...and going...
Because some of us, namely me, need to learn to shut-up!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Brakie,You've commented a couple times here that your club layout works so well because you have professional electricians, etc. designing and building the electronics part of the layout.
Then may I ask you why are you guys using Atlas switch machines? (shudder) The worst switch machine this side of a train set switch. Even the under-the-table ones are...ick.
Gosh, if you're not going to use Tortoise or Switchmaster, at least go for the old NJ-type for at least they can route power and show switch indication.
If you haven't guessed, I can't stand Atlas switch machines. Ok for home layouts (goodness knows, I used to have a lot of them...all gone now), but for a club layout? Not for me. Never, if I can help it.
Paul,The only real "snap" we have is from Atlas switch machines when the switch is thrown.As far as noise whats that? 90% of our members are blue collar workers and pay no heed to minor noise like our white collar workers. The older goats can't hear to well anyway- well,so it seems.
We took a old half baked poorly design spaghetti bowl loop de loop layout and we redesign and rebuilt it to what it is today.We started in 91 and was finished in 92 and completely finished by 93.We been operating Friday night and Sunday Afternoon every since..The only "work" meetings is called as needed on Saturday for general clean up and maintenance.These meetings are usually followed by a pizza party and railroad videos.
Get this..If a Atlas switch machine burns out any member can replace it in about five minutes.I think the record stands at 3 minutes during a open house.
As far as DCC it was voted down so many times we finally tabled it.The vote was so lopsided it was actually sad..I think the most was 8 for votes out of 47..As one guy say why fix something that isn't broke? No,that was from a younger member.Sadly 3 out of the eight pro DCC votes quit.Oh well win some lose some.
jktrains,Did you know that you can get to F12 with just a UT4 throttle? That's only $65 (at Tony's), not $180 for a DT400 MSRP. I mentioned the computer option because it's one option, not nesscessarily the best one. BTW, I hear you can't keep the trains running when you unplug an NCE PowerCab unless you add something to the basic system. Sound familiar?
You go on to say that you've never heard of an EEPROM update from Digitrax...and how if the unit is upgraded, it will be gone for a couple weeks. Well that's only once every 10 years or so. Big deal. And yes, that's about how often Digitrax upgrades EEPROM's as, with one or two rare exceptions, Digitrax systems don't need to be upgraded constantly due to their superior peer-to-peer network, unlike the polled "master-slave" systems used by NCE and Lenz. Also, if you have more than booster with Digitrax, your layout doesn't have to be down and out while the system "brain" is away. Every Digitrax booster is also a command station, and can be used to run the layout until the "brain" returns.
As for the DT400 cord... You want a longer than 6' cord? Buy a 6-pin male-male connector, some flat phone cable and crimps, and make your own extension. For a coiled cord, splice it on to the existing cord and cut it off short or again, using a male-male connector, add your own coiled cord. If that doesn't satisfy you, open the throttle, void the warrenty, and do it that way. Digitrax will still fix the throttle if you ever break it, but they will simply charge you for it.
(sarcasm) I'll just keep my plain ol' Digitrax system...you know, the one that first came out with radio throttles years before anyone else? The one that first supported F9-F12? The one that first came out with bi-directional decoders? The one that was first with an integrated block detection and signalling system? Yeah, just that ol' backwards Digitrax system. I don't know how they ever stay in business...(/sarcasm)
Brakie,If you read my post, I was talking about 1) MY club, not yours, and 2) DC layouts in general, not yours. Please do not presume I'm talking about your club when I wasn't.
I spent 8 years running my club's old DC layout (ca. 1953 & 1978 to 1998). And from looking around New England layouts and in MR over the years, our DC set up was a fairly standard cab control design. I helped dozens of new members learn how to operate our old layout. And while some could pick it up like they designed it themselves, others couldn't figure it out for the life of them.
But as for DC vs. DCC hassle, here's some pics for you, Brakie. Here's the front of Cab 7 from our old club:
And here's the rear (note: wires were snipped when the Cab was removed):
We kept this Cab specifically just to show people why we went DCC.
And here's the northern terminal yard diagram I was talking about from my old club:
That diagram, BTW, is 6 feet long and hung from the ceiling about 4 to 6 feet from the operators in the yard.
But do you know what's interesting? We had a video made, professional quality, of one of our layout operations back in the late 1980's. Live sound, tripod pans, a little narration, etc. And everytime I show it to one of the new members, they always ask, "What's all that clicking and clacking sound in the background?" That's the operators flipping toggles, over and over and over again, they are told. They usually reply, "I'm glad we don't do that anymore, it'd drive me crazy." But when I show it to any older member, they don't even notice it. Funny, eh?
jktrains wrote: Paul3 wrote: jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.Paul A. Cutler III************That's my point exactly! You can't access function above F8 without adding something to the "basic" system. At DT400 = $180 list, add a computer and you need additonal hardware like a MS100 ($45), A Locobuffer ($75), add in the price of the software ($89+). That's a real simple solution to being able to access above F8. Also, I've never heard of an EPROM update from Digitrax. If there is an upgrade they require you to send in your command station - now you have no control system for your layout, and what kind of turnaround time when you send it in? A week, 2 weeks?Read page 51 of the Zephyr manual, "The units are not user servicable (opening the case voids your warranty)." That's why you're required to send the unit for an upgrade. Also, opening the case on a heldheld throttle also voids the warranty. So, if you buy a nonradio DT400, which comes a straight connecting cord, but want a longer cord or a coil cord, how do you change it. If you open the case, you void the warranty, so you're stuck with the length Digitrax gives you.If the way the get to F28 is by buying a new throttle (probably around $150+ since a DT400 is MSRP $180), I'll pick a different system that offers an easier way to upgrade the system. There is one out there that actually sends out a new EPROM when an upgrade is need and tells the user to open the case and insert it themselves. Sounds, alot easier, and quicker, to me. No downtime to the layout. jktrains
Paul3 wrote: jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.Paul A. Cutler III************
jktrains,Care to explain how one "can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions" with Digitrax? Because while it's rarely been nesscessary for Digitrax equipment, they can have new chips installed to upgrade (it's only been done once for the Chief in at least 10 years). Usually, Digitrax doesn't try to cram extra nested commands into an existing throttle (they learned their lesson with the DT100's), so it will be interesting to see how Digitrax will get to F28. Maybe a new throttle? Maybe an upgrade? It's too early to know.
To get above F8 with a Zephyr, you have to plug in device that can access F9 to F12. A UT4 or DT400 would do, so would a computer throttle like Railroad&Co.'s.
Paul A. Cutler III************
That's my point exactly! You can't access function above F8 without adding something to the "basic" system. At DT400 = $180 list, add a computer and you need additonal hardware like a MS100 ($45), A Locobuffer ($75), add in the price of the software ($89+). That's a real simple solution to being able to access above F8.
Also, I've never heard of an EPROM update from Digitrax. If there is an upgrade they require you to send in your command station - now you have no control system for your layout, and what kind of turnaround time when you send it in? A week, 2 weeks?
Read page 51 of the Zephyr manual, "The units are not user servicable (opening the case voids your warranty)." That's why you're required to send the unit for an upgrade. Also, opening the case on a heldheld throttle also voids the warranty. So, if you buy a nonradio DT400, which comes a straight connecting cord, but want a longer cord or a coil cord, how do you change it. If you open the case, you void the warranty, so you're stuck with the length Digitrax gives you.
If the way the get to F28 is by buying a new throttle (probably around $150+ since a DT400 is MSRP $180), I'll pick a different system that offers an easier way to upgrade the system. There is one out there that actually sends out a new EPROM when an upgrade is need and tells the user to open the case and insert it themselves. Sounds, alot easier, and quicker, to me. No downtime to the layout.
jktrains
What DCC system are you using?
BRAKIE wrote: One member's wife observed our operation is like a well rehearse stage play everybody knows his part even the stand ins..Its harder to learn the main line then it is the yard-except the working hump.Simon,If you are ever in these parts on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon you are more then welcome to attend a operation session and run a train or three.
One member's wife observed our operation is like a well rehearse stage play everybody knows his part even the stand ins..
Its harder to learn the main line then it is the yard-except the working hump.
Simon,If you are ever in these parts on a Friday night or Sunday afternoon you are more then welcome to attend a operation session and run a train or three.
Larry you tease! You add these little extra snippets like "working hump" just to tantalize us more. I just might have to find an excuse to visit OSU Med Center one Friday!!
Well JKtrains it looks like we are actually in almost total agreement. DCC is the way to go and the ability to expand and grow as layout, and technology changes demand is also important. Perhaps what we don't agree on is the approach of Digitrax specifically to managing these changes and enhancements. I have always been impressed by the way that older Digitrax equipment can coexist in a Loconet environment without becoming obsolete. I like the fact that I can add components to my Zephyr, even a new command station if I want, and I don't lose the capabilities of the Zephyr box. There is never a feeling that money was wasted as the older components still continue to serve a purpose.
I do think that Digitrax faces a real challenge in the coming months. How they manage the addition of the new functions and the purported release of new radio is going to be very telling. My expectation is that I will be able to benefit from these new features. But who knows, maybe it will be a complete new command station that they are coming out with?
Simon,First the club is very fortunate to have 2 professional electricians and a electrical contractor as members..These guys not only design the wiring but,they made sure that each block was long enough to do the job without interference from other yard cabs.You will need to throw a toggle switch to gain that section..You must get permission from the yard master.There is a red/green light for all shared yard trackage.Red of course means its under control of the yard master..Green means you control this section..Upon finishing your task you flip the toggle back to "YM" its as simple as that.Same applies to the passenger terminal..
Simon,
I have used, on many occassions, a Digitrax system so I'm very familiar with what it can and cannot do. I have in fact spent hours trying to figure out why it wouldn't work, but that's another issue.
The original question posed was is "DCC worth the price?" My answer would of course be yes, its worth the price, but figuratively and literally. As part of the discussion people started expousing on cost/benefit of one system versus another. When the subject of outgrowing a system was raised, the talk primarily was centered on could a person's layout out grow a Zephyr. Based on the original question, which included not wanting to get a starter system that would be outgrown, or become obsolete, there are other areas to consider that weren't being addressed, such as upgrading the command station to take advantage of advances in DCC technology. These a areas should be considered.
Since analogies were being used previously, I'll through out some more. One would be like buying a basic computer with a minimum of hardware and software installed. Sure you could add the other hardware and software you need to accomplish what you want, but will the system be able to handle the add-ons and still perform at optimum levels or would you have been better off spending the additional money and getting a computer that was designed to handle everything you wanted to do from the very beginning. Usually by the time you start adding up the costs of the add-ons and upgrades you'd have been better off buying the next level computer. For example, MS just came out with the new Vista operating system, it's sounds great, but if I have to add a new harddrive, graphics card and memory to my existing computer is it worth it, or maybe its better buying a whole new systems designed to meeting the requirements of Vista. That then becomes a personal decision, but before I can make that decision I need to know all the facts, including how that computer can be upgraded to meet future technological advances. Too a degree, evaluating what DCC system to buy is similar. Ideally, you only want to buy one.
Simon, also consider that I haven't discussed items such as ease of use of throttles, components, consisting, screen presentations etc that are different between the systems. I focused on how they can meet the demands of chaning technology, not the layout. Once a layout is designed, the power demands for it don't really change over time, unless it is expanded. So that system that works today should work for that layout 2 years or 5 years from now or more. What changes is the equipment run on the layout and the technology in it. And that's what wasn't being addressed - can it keep up with tech changes.
BRAKIE wrote: Paul,I know you are tooting the DCC horn for all its worth but please do not presume you know anything about the club.The wiring and blocks was done by professional electricians you will find NO spaghetti bowl wiring.Each yard cab has a clearly labeled schematic and each yard cab is a breeze to operate YOU could learn it in just a few minutes time..Any yard cab can access the inbound/outbound tracks by a flip of the toggle as well as the DS when he assigns power to a section of track-we use CM20 walk around throttles..The is NO block overkill found on the club's layout like you find on most club layouts.As far as DCC it has been decided its not worth the hassle..Personally I would hate to have to address EACH locomotive before I could move it as I stated I did that once and by nights end felt like a accountant.
Paul,I know you are tooting the DCC horn for all its worth but please do not presume you know anything about the club.The wiring and blocks was done by professional electricians you will find NO spaghetti bowl wiring.Each yard cab has a clearly labeled schematic and each yard cab is a breeze to operate YOU could learn it in just a few minutes time..Any yard cab can access the inbound/outbound tracks by a flip of the toggle as well as the DS when he assigns power to a section of track-we use CM20 walk around throttles..The is NO block overkill found on the club's layout like you find on most club layouts.
As far as DCC it has been decided its not worth the hassle..Personally I would hate to have to address EACH locomotive before I could move it as I stated I did that once and by nights end felt like a accountant.
Larry, I would love to see your club layout one day, it sounds really impressive. Your post here in some ways is the perfect point/counterpoint to the whole discussion. On the one hand you have a superb DC block installation that functions really well. On the other hand look what you described as how your club got to that point "professional electricians" central control implied by the DS assigning power to a track section. What you are describing is a highly complex installation that I suspect took a lot of man hours in design and installation. I can't blame you for not wanting to change that. DCC installation would have been trivial by comparison. I am in no way knocking what your club has accomplished. In fact is sounds like it is a truly masterful implementation. However, I suspect that it is beyond the capability and scope of most of us to implement. DCC opens that operational capability to those that don't have the electrical skills to create a system as elegant as yours.
Rudy, my reasons (or lack thereof) for peferring a stick are not nearly as scientific. I just seem to enjoy driving one more. Or maybe it is the peace of mind from knowing that my wife can't drive my car!
I'm afraid that when it comes to government and politicians I tend to violate my own rules of labeling.....and name calling! But, in the interest of peace, we won't go down that path.
- Mark
Thanks, Larry. You answered my question, which was more to do with the length between blocks as a limiting factor in the lengths of trains that can, and must, fit within the confines of any one block. So, I also understand now that your blocks do accommodate long passenger trains.
Brakie,DC operations is hardly as easy as "1, 2, 3" for most cab controlled layouts that I've experienced.
For example, at my club's old layout, the northern terminal (ca. 1955) had a freight yard cab (5 blocks), a passenger terminal/coach yard cab (5 blocks), and an engine facility cab (18 blocks). Each of these cabs could be interlocked together so that the freight cab could run a passenger train, or that the passenger cab could turn a car on the turntable, etc. To figure out how to get a specific loco running, not only did one have to line up the switches, one also had to figure which toggles to throw by consulting large painted diagrams hanging over the layout or by careful reading of a nearby clipboard. I knew the yard well, and operated it almost monthly for 5 years.
We had a similar yard over on the southern terminal (ca. 1978), but even tho' I was a fully qualified yardman, I could not figure out how to successfully operate a train in the southern terminal. The track diagrams were terribly confusing to read, and the blocks just...seemed illogical to me. Instead of using the switches to route power, each track had it's own toggle. And instead of having one block for the switch lead, it was cut up several times. And cab interlockings? Whew. I had all kinds of trouble figuring out that yard.
Now compare that to DCC. As long as I know how to operate the throttle, I can operate anywhere as long as I can throw switches. I don't have to know where the yard blocks are, I don't have to know where I can park engines, I don't have to figure out how to turn on one cab so that I can access another cab's blocks...none of it.
So while some DC can be pretty easy if doesn't have too many blocks, big DC layouts can be far, far worse than the most complex DCC layout (and it still won't do as much).
selector wrote: Just a quick interjection, then I'll shut up.If I decided that I wanted to pull every lighted passenger car I own (it's a mixture of six, but let's say it was 12, all heavies), and my DC blocks were only able to accommodate 4 of them plus my the Niagara, how would I do that? Don't DC blocks severely limit what I can do in many ways on a small layout? Whereas in DCC, I can run every loco consisted and have them pull every car I own, no matter if a caboose or a tank car, and I would only have to worry about a reversing loop. On the main, or in the yard, I could let 'er rip.Yes, I am asking about a rare, even a bizarre, likelihood, it just seems that DC requires so much more fiddling. The "f" that may apply to DCC is finicky as far as track cleanliness is concerned, but that is easily managed. After you have cleaned, it should be clean running...IMO. The only switches thrown should be ones with points.At least, that is my understanding about DC...am I right?
Just a quick interjection, then I'll shut up.
If I decided that I wanted to pull every lighted passenger car I own (it's a mixture of six, but let's say it was 12, all heavies), and my DC blocks were only able to accommodate 4 of them plus my the Niagara, how would I do that? Don't DC blocks severely limit what I can do in many ways on a small layout? Whereas in DCC, I can run every loco consisted and have them pull every car I own, no matter if a caboose or a tank car, and I would only have to worry about a reversing loop. On the main, or in the yard, I could let 'er rip.
Yes, I am asking about a rare, even a bizarre, likelihood, it just seems that DC requires so much more fiddling. The "f" that may apply to DCC is finicky as far as track cleanliness is concerned, but that is easily managed. After you have cleaned, it should be clean running...IMO. The only switches thrown should be ones with points.
At least, that is my understanding about DC...am I right?
Not exactly true..We run 12 car lighted passenger trains without out any problems even on a single track point to point layout.DC requires NO fiddling as such.After the end car as pass the block all that is require is a flip of a toggle switch and a flip of a switch control to open the passing siding switch,the signal turns from RED to GREEN and the train in the siding is ready to continue its trip..All of this is done by a DS with a CTC board.
The sad part is most modelers has no idea what DC can do with a CTC board,properly design layout, blocks and yard panals.It is NOT uncommon to see one train leaving the yard as another arrives while the yard switcher goes about its work.You could see a outbound set of road power roll up the "runner" track on their way to their assigned outbound train..This takes place every club operation session.This type of DC operation been going long before DCC was even thought of.In fact the first time I saw this type of operation was at the Columbus(Oh) Model Railroad Club in the early 60s.
I have also seen many layouts with block overkill when in all truth only half was really needed.
The Zephyr sounds like the way to go, its feeling more and more like the perfect choice for a beginner, and the fact that it doesn't have a walkaround throttle is ok for me right now.
-beegle55
jktrains wrote: Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.Digitrax website lists Zephyr as a basic set. States you can access function F0-F8 only. As sound equipped engines become more popular and the number of functions expand, how do you access all the functions then? A MRC sound decoder has up through F19, Soundtraxx Tsunami - F14.The Zephyr maybe a good starter system, but it has its limits. I'll go back to the main recommnedation - before you buy a system, go online and read the manuals for each see what you can and cannot understand and let that guide you decision.
Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.
Digitrax website lists Zephyr as a basic set. States you can access function F0-F8 only. As sound equipped engines become more popular and the number of functions expand, how do you access all the functions then? A MRC sound decoder has up through F19, Soundtraxx Tsunami - F14.
The Zephyr maybe a good starter system, but it has its limits.
I'll go back to the main recommnedation - before you buy a system, go online and read the manuals for each see what you can and cannot understand and let that guide you decision.
By adding my $64 walk around throttle (which I realize you don't count because it involves spending more money) my Zephyr controlled system now runs up to F12 with no modification or upgrade being needed to the command station. Having said that, I rarely use anything but the whistle, bell and coupler crash. All the other sounds I care about are managed automatically. High number function support is IMO an area that needs some serious design work. I don't want a throttle with 28 function buttons to hunt through. I don't want to have to press Shift of Fnc key to access extra banks of functions, I don't want to have to scroll through menus. I just want to run trains and the less time I have to spend fiddling around with a throttle trying to access F23 to activate some obscure sound the better. The reality is that most of us will not remember what all the functions do without some sort of text or graphic display. Since the mapping of the different sounds to the functions numbers are different from one decoder manufacturer to another this becomes a really impractical proposition. My guess is that if you did a poll you would find that most of us rarely use these functions.
Digitrax has indicated that they will be offering higher level function support in 2007. This is not altogether surprising as they are attempting to enter the sound decoder market. Exactly how they plan to do this, I do not know. However based on past history I am very confident that as a Zephyr user I will be in a position to benefit from any enhancements that they come out with.
Texas Zepher wrote: Driline wrote:Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle. Well if you call that monster two handed beast thing, a walk around throttle. I much prefer to leave it on the shelf and add a utility throttle (cab04) to walk around and run the trains with.
Driline wrote:Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle.
LOL
I agree, Rudy. I really do not like labeling or name calling in these debates. That's probably why I hate listening to politicians and talk radio. I have also gone through "cooling off periods" with this forum for much the same reason.
I've tried to be careful to make sure people know there is no right or wrong answer to this sort of question, nor is there any one-size-fits-all guide to when one or the other is better. Folks need to read, ask questions, read some more, ask more questions and essentially do what a wise consumer does before making a significant purchase. In that equation is considering what the person wants to do and their comfort zone. Getting some hands-on experience, if available, is a big help provided the "tutor" is a good teacher (which I generally am not).
But it's a little like asking "is an automatic transmission better than a stick shift?"
If DC and manual transmissions are "old school," I'm wondering where I stand. I use DCC and prefer it for my own application, but I'd much rather drive a stick! Hmm.
None of that makes me any better or worse than Larry, or make my decisions right for his circumstances or his right for mine.
Beegle55,
I converted back last Thanksgiving using the Digitrax Super Chief. With a 3' by 15' Water wing shaped layout, I decided to not go with with wireless control. After running some trains, I seemed ok with DCC. After I set up some simple speed tables, and programmed in some momentum and did a little switching, that's when DCC really sold me. I have never been able to run the slower speeds for switching and just general creeping around like I have with DCC. All my roadswitchers now run at about 60 scale MPH at full throttle, so 50% is my usual cruising speed. Things do not stall, run jerky, and mu'ing diesels together is a snap. You can make fine adjustments to your speed tables to get multiple units in perfect unison. However, make darn sure your track is clean, no left-over dried goobers of glue and paint should be on the rail heads. This will disrupt the signal. A little fine tuning of the trackwork and locomotives will ensure some great performance. Oh, and it's nice not to worry about what block you're in.
So, if you plan to operate at protoypical speeds, especially any SLOW running, and you like having limitless flexibility that cannot be done with cab control, then YES DCC is worth the investment. My next layout, to be started this summer, will have NO insulated rail joiners, NO control panel, and MUCH LESS wire.
If you would rather just watch trains run, aren't too concerned about very slow running, and cab control doesn't hinder how you operate, then you might think twice. And there are some nice running DC layouts.
Good luck!
JD - long live the ol' Southeastern!
I feel disappointed that people have to stoop to labeling some as "old school" once those of you that are young grow older you will understand, (another benefit of old school) experience=wisdom and knowledge. We all have different tastes, that is what makes us unique and different, but we do not have to label others to make ourselves feel better. I hope those of you who have done this will refrain in an effort to keep this a productive forum and one in which all ideas are welcome. Some years ago, I had a quote of niche I believe and it stated, Everything has been done before, the problem is to figure out how to do it again.
Now let's see what the Zephyr REALLY does..
Zephyr Offers:
Simple to use controls for running trains.
Large speed control knob and direction switch with brake.
Full numeric key pad.
Easy 2 and 4 digit addressing.
Smooth speed control.
Run multiple trains at once without blocking!
Run up to 10 addresses at the same time on your system.
Run up to 10 throttles at the same time on your system.
Jump Ports for using DC power packs as additional throttles
Use one or two smooth DC power packs as throttles to control DCC equipped locomotives.
Simple, cost effective way to add more throttles to your Zephyr set.
Makes it easy to share the fun of DCC with layout visitors and young operators.
Functions on locos controlled by Jump throttles remain active.
Over 9000 Locomotive Addresses
Use Address 00 to run one or more locos without DCC decoders
Two Digit Addressing is easy to use. (Address 01-127)
Four Digit Addressing-use the number painted on your engines as its address.
2.5 Amps of Power to run multiple trains.
Function Control
Control 10 functions-F0 through F8.
Function 2 is a special non-latching key that can be used to sound the horn for as long as the key is held down.
Constant brightness lighting. Headlights can be directional or independently controlled (depending on decoder).
Stationary Decoders, Turnout Control & Turnout Position Reporting
Access to stationary decoder control for turnouts and other devices.
Control 999 stationary decoder addresses.
Consisting
Universal consisting, Digitrax preferred method. ALL locos can be consisted, even analog locos.
Advanced consisting, allows only advanced consist capable mobile decoders.
Basic consisting, program decoders to run on same address.
Decoder Programming
Built in read/write programmer that can read and write all CVs.
Supports Paged programming (Digitrax preferred method). Also supports direct & register mode programming.
Operations mode programming can be used to program decoders on the layout.
Expandability with Digitrax LocoNet
Use Zephyr as a starting point for your Digitrax LocoNet System, then add components.
Use Zephyr as an expansion set with Digitrax equipment you already have installed.
Add Radio or IR via LocoNet. Just plug in a UR90 or UR91 receiver and add IR and/or Radio throttles.
jktrains wrote:Please explain how it is upgraded to handle more functions as the NMRA standards increases the number of functions available on a decoder or if the standards change? The first NMRA standards had functions 0-9, now there is at least F0-F12. You can't insert a new EPROM to access the new functions.
As a matter of fact, you can. The EPROM inside the command stations is in a socket and could be replaced very easily. That is not something Digitrax advertises, but having seen the insides of a DB150 and DCS100, it is a fact. I would bet the design of the Zephyr is the same in that respect.
As for the recommendation about downloading and reading the manuals before buying, I would make that same recommendation about DCC or almost anything else. I have a hard drive full of manuals ranging from Digitrax stuff to lawn mowers, refrigerators, TV's etc. Like any other purchase, knowing what you are about to buy is a very big step towards both satisfaction with the product and avoiding purchasing mistakes.
Simon,Our control panel is so straight forward you could catch on in a few mintues..All of our yard panels was design that way by members that are professional electricians.How simple? IF you can follow a labeled track schematic you are good to go.
Dave,I am far from old school having use DCC and Sound on my last room size layout.Sadly,I didn't even get to finish the layout because the State bought my house so they could build another stinking access road.I just like showing both sides of the coin and what is available as a option.
As far as that night of DCC operation I moved or consisted close to 60 locomotives in 4 hours without problems and like I said after the operation session I did feel like a accountant.In comparison in our normal 6 hour club operation as a hustler I will move close to 70-75 locomotives to and from the inbound/outbound yard tracks and to and from the passenger terminal.
BRAKIE wrote: About 3 years ago I was invited to operate on a full basement size DCC layout..It was enjoyable but,I felt like a accountant by the time the operation session was over..The following Friday I was more then happy to return to DC operations on the club's layout..There was no stinking addresses to punch into the throttle before I could move a engine to where it was needed..All I had to do as a hostler at the club is flip toggle switches and add the engine to a outbound train,remove it from the inbound train and take it to the roundhouse area or to the outbound ready tracks.Easy as 1,2,3..
About 3 years ago I was invited to operate on a full basement size DCC layout..It was enjoyable but,I felt like a accountant by the time the operation session was over..The following Friday I was more then happy to return to DC operations on the club's layout..There was no stinking addresses to punch into the throttle before I could move a engine to where it was needed..All I had to do as a hostler at the club is flip toggle switches and add the engine to a outbound train,remove it from the inbound train and take it to the roundhouse area or to the outbound ready tracks.Easy as 1,2,3..
Brakie, you describe a perfect example where a switch to DCC may not be a good idea. Your club has a rock solid well designed DC block implementation that you are very comfortable with and is apparently easy to operate. It is easy as 1,2,3 to you because you are very familiar with it. Now my experience has been the exact opposite. I had the chance to run a large DC system a couple of years back and I found it utterly confusing figuring out which toggle switches to use to keep my loco switched to my cab. I like the simplicity of selecting a loco and being able to run anywhere on the layout without having to worry about anything except turnouts and my route. The other thing to consider is the wiring. In your club example the wiring is in place and functioning well. For a new installation the difference in wiring complexity for DC and DCC to accomplish the activities you described is astonishing. Often when people are considering the cost of DCC and comparing it to DC I don't think that they appreciate the cost savings of eliminating a complex switched block system.
Anyway, the upshot of all this is that DCC is the flavor of the month and I personally would not suggest anyone build a new layout without giving it serious consideration. For older, well established layouts I don't think it is at all clear cut. Conversion may not be trivial. Conversion will likely be very costly. But more importantly if things are working well and the members/operators don't have the desire or interest to make the conversion, why bother. If DC is serving you well, why not continue to enjoy it?
ukrailroader wrote: Hi beegle55,I went DCC about a year ago with a Digitrax Chief set and have not regretted it. The operating possibilities are far in advance of DC. I was so impressed with DCC that I managed to arrange a demonstration at my club and they have now gone DCC on a switchable layout. On operating nights the sounds from our sound equipped locos can make you think it is a real railroad. I went for Digitrax because they have the biggest slice of the DCC cake in the US.ukrailroader (UK)
Hi beegle55,
I went DCC about a year ago with a Digitrax Chief set and have not regretted it. The operating possibilities are far in advance of DC. I was so impressed with DCC that I managed to arrange a demonstration at my club and they have now gone DCC on a switchable layout. On operating nights the sounds from our sound equipped locos can make you think it is a real railroad.
I went for Digitrax because they have the biggest slice of the DCC cake in the US.
ukrailroader (UK)
Hi From Australia,
I'm a little bit late joining this thread but it takes a while longer to reach us downunder. DCC for me was the best possible move. I have been using the NCE Procab for about 4 years and now run mainly sounded locos. The flexibility and ease of using DCC cannot be overstated. I have a preference for the NCE system but like many have already suggested it would be wise to try before you buy. For a starter system I find it hard to go past the NCE Power Cab. I have one which I use on my portable shelf layout as a stand alone system and it then simply plugs into my Pro Cab system on my main layout and gives me a fully functional additional throttle. I was one of the first in my local area to take the plunge to DCC and I have no regrets. Several DC purists have had a change of heart once they experience the freedom and excitement of using DCC and leave my train room with a smile and some new ideas. I also believe that the the constant development in the DCC electronics show the way to the future. Anyway enjoy what you do.
Regards from Downunder - Chris
rrinker wrote: Also, you can't get a Lenz anything for under $200. The Set 90 is $230 plus a power supply. A Zephyr plus UT4 is less than that AND would have far more funcitonatility, not to mention a total of FOUR throttles (the UT4, the Zephyr console, and 2 jump ports if you didn;t thow out your DC power packs). The only sub-$200 sets with a handheld of any sort are the Prodigy Express and NCE Powercab, and only the Prodigy Express would allow you to unplug the cab and move elsewhere. Neither has a dedicate program track, and the PE can not read back CV values. --Randy
Also, you can't get a Lenz anything for under $200. The Set 90 is $230 plus a power supply. A Zephyr plus UT4 is less than that AND would have far more funcitonatility, not to mention a total of FOUR throttles (the UT4, the Zephyr console, and 2 jump ports if you didn;t thow out your DC power packs).
The only sub-$200 sets with a handheld of any sort are the Prodigy Express and NCE Powercab, and only the Prodigy Express would allow you to unplug the cab and move elsewhere. Neither has a dedicate program track, and the PE can not read back CV values.
--Randy
Thats why I bought the NCE power cab. Inexpensive and the only TRUE starter set walkaround throttle. Nuff said..........
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A decent non-sound decoder from NCE costs $11.99 if you buy a 10 pack of them from Empire Northern. D13SRJ, 10 pack $119.95. I use them in most anythign that there isn't a specific form factor decoder for (like the DH163L0 from Digitrax for P2K, or the NCE SW-SR for P2K SW switchers).
simon1966 wrote: Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.Sure it does, for $64 you can get a UT 4 and have a true walk around throttle, you can add up to 10 of them if you so choose by simply adding $15 dual connector panels around the layout.
Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.
BRAKIE wrote: Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.Here is the facts.http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
Indeed..The Zephyr is probably the best starter system on the market.
Here is the facts.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
I didn't buy the zephyr because it doesn't hava a walk around throttle. You are stuck in one spot running trains. Its probably OK for a 4X8, but anything bigger.....forget about it. It is a cool looking transformer though.
Sure it does, for $64 you can get a UT 4 and have a true walk around throttle, you can add up to 10 of them if you so choose by simply adding $15 dual connector panels around the layout.
Ummmm....No it does'nt. The Zephyr starter set DOES NOT INCLUDE A WALK AROUND THROTTLE. Thats EXTRA!!!
Thats like saying, sure the Zephyr has radio control... blah blah blah....BUT YOU PAY FOR IT! Thats true with any of the starter sets.
So, if you have less than $200 to spend and want a starter set with a walk around throttle, then you need to look at the following three sets..
1) NCE Power CAB $139.99
2) MRC Prodigy Express ???
3) Lenz ???
I may have missed some other starter sets....but you get the point.
That was a dealbreaker for me. I HAD to have a walkaround throttle, so my choices were limited to the above three.
SpaceMouse wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Tom and Chip,Not really..Most ADVANCED 4 x 8 foot layout designs was meant for one train operation at best with 6 or 7 car train length any more then that you end up with the old "engine chasing the caboose" syndrome..Even with small rtw layouts its best to stick with single train and small train lengths as this adds distance to small rtw layouts..This is especially true for rtw industrial switching layouts.Advanced layout designers has known for years less is best for small layouts.I have agreed with that philosophy long before DCC. Personally I find this a very limited view, especially in light of the fact that I just mentioned that the joy of DDC on my layout was the fact that my son and I could run together. On my 4 x 8 I have a 3-track yard, two towns and 3 staging tracks which easily held 6 trains. It was quite simple to have one train running mainline switching and dropping cars for the yard switcher who then switched local industries. It was a de facto interchange operation. I also had full engine service. Add passenger service and mine ops and there is quite enough to keep two operators busy for a couple hours. My trains never chased tails as you put it. It was simply impossible.
BRAKIE wrote: Tom and Chip,Not really..Most ADVANCED 4 x 8 foot layout designs was meant for one train operation at best with 6 or 7 car train length any more then that you end up with the old "engine chasing the caboose" syndrome..Even with small rtw layouts its best to stick with single train and small train lengths as this adds distance to small rtw layouts..This is especially true for rtw industrial switching layouts.Advanced layout designers has known for years less is best for small layouts.I have agreed with that philosophy long before DCC.
Tom and Chip,Not really..Most ADVANCED 4 x 8 foot layout designs was meant for one train operation at best with 6 or 7 car train length any more then that you end up with the old "engine chasing the caboose" syndrome..Even with small rtw layouts its best to stick with single train and small train lengths as this adds distance to small rtw layouts..This is especially true for rtw industrial switching layouts.Advanced layout designers has known for years less is best for small layouts.I have agreed with that philosophy long before DCC.
Personally I find this a very limited view, especially in light of the fact that I just mentioned that the joy of DDC on my layout was the fact that my son and I could run together.
On my 4 x 8 I have a 3-track yard, two towns and 3 staging tracks which easily held 6 trains. It was quite simple to have one train running mainline switching and dropping cars for the yard switcher who then switched local industries. It was a de facto interchange operation. I also had full engine service. Add passenger service and mine ops and there is quite enough to keep two operators busy for a couple hours. My trains never chased tails as you put it. It was simply impossible.
Chip, I am going to Diss your layout. Why does it look pink? Are you shooting through rose colored glasses?
Soo Line fan wrote: I have close to 40 engines. All have been detailed, many are re-powered with expensive can motors and some I have custom painted. How much would it cost to convert over I am not talking about a starter set that would be obsolete the day after it is installed or cheap low-end decoders. I think for the time being I will stick with DC. I run one train continuously on one cab and switch with the other. Having a double track mainline helps. Perhaps I will switch over in 5 years but I would like to see what type of new technology, if any, comes out in the meantime.Jim
I have close to 40 engines. All have been detailed, many are re-powered with expensive can motors and some I have custom painted. How much would it cost to convert over
I am not talking about a starter set that would be obsolete the day after it is installed or cheap low-end decoders.
I think for the time being I will stick with DC. I run one train continuously on one cab and switch with the other. Having a double track mainline helps.
Perhaps I will switch over in 5 years but I would like to see what type of new technology, if any, comes out in the meantime.
Jim
A decent NON sound decoder from NCE runs about 20 bucks. You'll need $800 dollars + $140 for a DCC system. Most of my older locomotives are crap compared to the new ones. So' I"ve been buying new loco's latley that run fantastic. Sounds like you put a lot of time,can motors, and paint into some of your loco's. I would definatley add a decoder in those, but others you can simply abandon or resell, like I did.
I will help you start a fund raising campaign if you find thats necessary.
BRAKIE wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: BRAKIE wrote:Chip,My comments has nothing to do with your layout..Those are the well known general comments of some of the great layout thinkers that has grace the pages of MR,GMR and MRP over the years..The layout Design Sig I am a member of also discuss those theories and principles of modern layout designs based on solid LDEs and prototypical operation disciplines.Thanks, I'm glad you weren't getting personal.I am a member of the Layout SIG and the OPs SIG--although I admit that I can't keep up with all the posts and have given up on the OPs completely.Still, you talk about ops like there are rules. Frankly, I'd like to know what those rules are. The best I can come up with is the preachings of Tony Koester, yet when you compare it with other "operators," Chubb, Fugate, Hartle, etc., there are enough differences to create a lively discussion. I'd like to know what you feel are the SOPs (standard operating proceedures) even in general terms. Chip,First and above all never take what I say personal as it never meant to be but,I know at times it may appear that way.As far as operations there are many from very basic to highly complex with fast clocks,train schedules and employee time tables.The secrete is to find a happy medium that fits YOU and your layout needs.Would you rather I do a topic on this?
SpaceMouse wrote: BRAKIE wrote:Chip,My comments has nothing to do with your layout..Those are the well known general comments of some of the great layout thinkers that has grace the pages of MR,GMR and MRP over the years..The layout Design Sig I am a member of also discuss those theories and principles of modern layout designs based on solid LDEs and prototypical operation disciplines.Thanks, I'm glad you weren't getting personal.I am a member of the Layout SIG and the OPs SIG--although I admit that I can't keep up with all the posts and have given up on the OPs completely.Still, you talk about ops like there are rules. Frankly, I'd like to know what those rules are. The best I can come up with is the preachings of Tony Koester, yet when you compare it with other "operators," Chubb, Fugate, Hartle, etc., there are enough differences to create a lively discussion. I'd like to know what you feel are the SOPs (standard operating proceedures) even in general terms.
BRAKIE wrote:Chip,My comments has nothing to do with your layout..Those are the well known general comments of some of the great layout thinkers that has grace the pages of MR,GMR and MRP over the years..The layout Design Sig I am a member of also discuss those theories and principles of modern layout designs based on solid LDEs and prototypical operation disciplines.
Thanks, I'm glad you weren't getting personal.
I am a member of the Layout SIG and the OPs SIG--although I admit that I can't keep up with all the posts and have given up on the OPs completely.
Still, you talk about ops like there are rules. Frankly, I'd like to know what those rules are. The best I can come up with is the preachings of Tony Koester, yet when you compare it with other "operators," Chubb, Fugate, Hartle, etc., there are enough differences to create a lively discussion. I'd like to know what you feel are the SOPs (standard operating proceedures) even in general terms.
Chip,First and above all never take what I say personal as it never meant to be but,I know at times it may appear that way.
As far as operations there are many from very basic to highly complex with fast clocks,train schedules and employee time tables.The secrete is to find a happy medium that fits YOU and your layout needs.
Would you rather I do a topic on this?
I already started one. I didn't want to hijack this thread any more than I already had.
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1046740/ShowPost.aspx
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
jktrains wrote: Soo Line Fan, If you have that big a fleet, you need to consider how many of those locos sit in a box or on a shelf and won't ever be run. Such considerations could greatly decrease the number of decoders you'll need. Also, not all locos need to be done at once, do a few now and more later. Your comments about not wanting a starter system are right on the mark. Contrary to what others have stated, the Digitrax Zypher system is Digitrax's starter system. Lower amp output than they're other systems, no upgrade capability without purchase and entirely new system and starting over.The best advice I give people looking at DCC systems is to go to the manufacturer's website, download the manual for their various systems and read them thoroughly. Can you understand what is written? How to set-up the system? How to program a loco through their throttle? Are all the functions of the system adequately explained? Don't rely on the fact that your LHS sells it so you can call them for help. Chances are they don't know anymore than you do, then what? Calling the manufacturer - on a weekend? Good luck! But, if you can read and understand the manual, even without having the system in front of you, chances are you won't need to make those phone calls. jktrains
Soo Line Fan,
If you have that big a fleet, you need to consider how many of those locos sit in a box or on a shelf and won't ever be run. Such considerations could greatly decrease the number of decoders you'll need. Also, not all locos need to be done at once, do a few now and more later.
Your comments about not wanting a starter system are right on the mark. Contrary to what others have stated, the Digitrax Zypher system is Digitrax's starter system. Lower amp output than they're other systems, no upgrade capability without purchase and entirely new system and starting over.
The best advice I give people looking at DCC systems is to go to the manufacturer's website, download the manual for their various systems and read them thoroughly. Can you understand what is written? How to set-up the system? How to program a loco through their throttle? Are all the functions of the system adequately explained? Don't rely on the fact that your LHS sells it so you can call them for help. Chances are they don't know anymore than you do, then what? Calling the manufacturer - on a weekend? Good luck! But, if you can read and understand the manual, even without having the system in front of you, chances are you won't need to make those phone calls.
jktrains, your comment about the Zephyr "no upgrade without purchase and entirely new system and starting over" is completely off the mark. You can add boosters, wireless, extra throttles, PC interface, block detection and signalling. In fact you can add any of the many Digitrax add on modules to the Zephyr and keep it as the main command station without losing any of its capability.
Those of us that are talking about its ease of upgrade and expandability are talking from experience. The Zephyr is a superb example of Digitrax market leading forethought that is now being responded to by other manufacturers.
Yeah way off base. This is part of the beauty of the Digitrax design, there are absolutely NO wasted bits as you upgrade. There are exactly 2 devices in Digitrax history that can't be readily used with a modern sysem, those being the LA-1 Loconet adapter that came with the ancient Big Boy system and the CT4 throttles from the original Challenger system. And even those can actually be adapted - primary use is to make operating the Roco crane super simple. Everythign else ever made is reusable in a modern system - which is why it's hard to get even old DB100 boosters cheap, they aren't surplus or inferior in any way.
There are many ways to expand the Zephyr. If you just need more pwoer, add a booster. Move to a new house and finally started that 20 operatros monster basement dream layout? Add a DCS100 and get 120 trains/120 throttles. The Zephyr is still completely usable as a 2.5 amp booster AND the console throttle still can be used AND the jump port throttles can still be used. NO waste, no spare parts.
jktrains wrote: Your comments about not wanting a starter system are right on the mark. Contrary to what others have stated, the Digitrax Zypher system is Digitrax's starter system. Lower amp output than they're other systems, no upgrade capability without purchase and entirely new system and starting over.
I'm sorry, but this information is not accurate. The Zephyr can be upgraded to quite a ways. I believe with additional power packs, etc., it can run up to 120 locos. That's more than I need.
The estimated $20 cost and half hour installation time makes sense for locomotives which are designed to accept a DCC decoder.
But what about older locomotives... like the ones with high-current motors, motors grounded to the frame, or no physical space available for adding a decoder?
The best advice I give people looking at DCC systems is to go to the manufacturer's website, download the manual for their various systems and read them thoroughly. Can you understand what is written? How to set-up the system? How to program a loco through their throttle? Are all the functions of the system adequately explained? Don't rely on the fact that your LHS sells it so you can call them for help. Chances are they don't know anymore than you do, then what? Calling the manufacturer - on a weekend? Good luck! But, if you can read and understand the manual, even wothout having the system in front of you, chances are you won't need to make those phone calls.
skerber wrote:Although I never tried DCC, I am planning on sticking with DC. The reason? I have a small layout. I am perfectly happy with DC.
Paul3 wrote: twhite,Not for nothing, but you can't be "hopelessly electronically stupid" if you have posted on an internet web forum over 2400 times over the course of 2 and a half years...and you have a website with over 200 photos on it.Those people in my club who truly are "hopelessly electronically stupid" refuse to own a computer, and wouldn't know how to plug one in, let alone be able to post messages online or have a website (even the most basic).If you can operate a computer enough to register and post here, DCC is nothing compared to that.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
twhite,Not for nothing, but you can't be "hopelessly electronically stupid" if you have posted on an internet web forum over 2400 times over the course of 2 and a half years...and you have a website with over 200 photos on it.
Those people in my club who truly are "hopelessly electronically stupid" refuse to own a computer, and wouldn't know how to plug one in, let alone be able to post messages online or have a website (even the most basic).
If you can operate a computer enough to register and post here, DCC is nothing compared to that.
Paul--
Thank you for those kind words, LOL! But believe me, when it comes to computers, it's just dumb luck, and my son set up my website for me (the reason I haven't posted any new pictures on it is because this is a new computer with a different photo-shop set up that I just cannot figure out to save my life!). And when MR changed their forum style last year, I was just totally LOST, and had to leave until I could GET a new computer with all the appropriate bells and whistles just to get back on. Which kind of ticked me off, because I could have used the money for a really COOL used brass Rio Grande L-131. Oh, well--
I've seen quite a few DCC layouts that really impress me, but everytime I look at my bulging brass case (and I RUN them, not 'collect' them) and think of the National Debt that conversion would cost at my age (and relatively fixed income), all I can do is shake my head and think, "Well, if I were 20 years younger--MAYBE--"
But thanks again for the kind words. I really appreciate it.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite wrote: But at my age, and my very basic electronic skills, ..., PLUS terms I'd not only have to memorize but try and pronounce to begin with,..., I just cannot even BEGIN to comprehend punching in a whole bunch of numerical codes for a locomotive, instead of just turning up the throttle on my Control 20, LOL! There are some of us old farts out here who are simply and hopelessly electronically stupid, and I'm right at the head of the pack, I'm afraid.
But at my age, and my very basic electronic skills, ..., PLUS terms I'd not only have to memorize but try and pronounce to begin with,..., I just cannot even BEGIN to comprehend punching in a whole bunch of numerical codes for a locomotive, instead of just turning up the throttle on my Control 20, LOL!
There are some of us old farts out here who are simply and hopelessly electronically stupid, and I'm right at the head of the pack, I'm afraid.
Tom, I think you might be falling into one of the fallacies of DCC here (only in this part of your argument, cost to convert an existing locos in a real consideration). DCC really take less understanding of electronics, and you can operate without punching in a whole bunch of codes. Lots of people use big words, and make DCC sound hard. And it is true that you CAN do a lot more with DCC that does take some learning. But you don't generally have to.
Like I said, in your case sticking to DC could well be the right choice, but for almost any beginner DCC is really the way to go. I just want to try to make clear that DCC does not require an EE degree to use.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
BRAKIE wrote: Tom,Chip,I suppose it would really boils down to one's perception of advanced layout design following solid LDEs and prototypical operation principles and theories we have learned over the years.One cold hard fact is small "spaghetti bowl" layouts has fell from grace of advanced layout designers and multiple train operation on small layouts is also fallen theory.
Tom,Chip,I suppose it would really boils down to one's perception of advanced layout design following solid LDEs and prototypical operation principles and theories we have learned over the years.One cold hard fact is small "spaghetti bowl" layouts has fell from grace of advanced layout designers and multiple train operation on small layouts is also fallen theory.
You're being a little vague here Larry. What specifically are you referring to?
I suppose you can justify that my layout design is a "spaghetti bowl" because the track goes through the scene more than once. However, I feel equally justified in saying that every piece of track has a purpose and I chose to run track to make the climb back and forth. If you look again at the design, you will see that by adding thick vegetation in the grey areas between the loops, what you are left with is one loop visible, which is about all you can expect from a table layout.
On the other hand, with the hidden staging--the three tracks on the right, (which cannot be seen from the operating area when the backdrop is in place,) I can bring trains in from both the East and West. These trains can drop cars to be switched locally, pick-up cars to be switched at the other town or back to staging. Just how does that fall short of prototypical operations any more than it would on any other layout concept? And why is forbidden to have more than one operator on a 4 x 8 when it was designed to be able to handle it.
Just because something does not fit a person's conception of what possible, doesn't mean that someone hasn't done it.
I've been reading the pros and cons of DC vs. DCC, then I went out and looked at my garage empire and wondered "What would it be like to be able to run four or five trains at once on this puppy, instead of just two?"
The answer for me was: Absolute Disaster!
I'm not putting DCC down--don't even THINK I am, you'd be dead wrong! But at my age, and my very basic electronic skills, PLUS the 45 or 50 brass locos I'd have to convert, PLUS terms I'd not only have to memorize but try and pronounce to begin with, I just don't see the advantage for either myself or the Yuba River Sub. But this is MY opinion on MY skills and MY layout and not a judgement on the choice of DCC for anyone else.
I think if I were 47 instead of 67, I might have a whole difference of opinion about this, but quite frankly, fellas, I just cannot even BEGIN to comprehend punching in a whole bunch of numerical codes for a locomotive, instead of just turning up the throttle on my Control 20, LOL!
There are some of us old farts out here who are simply and hopelessly electronically stupid, and I'm right at the head of the pack, I'm afraid. Heck, I can't even operate a cell phone or an IPOD! How on earth could I begin to run four or five trains on a hand-held whatzits?
A excellent example of a small rtw short single train operation is found in April's issue of MR "Ohio Southern In A Bedroom." by Jim Hediger.These single train layouts is what I have in mind.
Certainly DCC is not needed for such operations nor does the layout call for block overkill.
I think there is a difference in "passion for DCC" put forth by many including magazines versus the real need..
Certainly it is a choice one must make for his/herself regarding the FULL costs including decoders,extra throttles,boosters(if needed) and other costs versus the real need..
Soo Line fan wrote: Chip and Simon,Thanks for the replies.Well, start up at $300-400 is not too bad and the rest can be done a little at a time I guess. Has the price been dropping, like most electronics? How well does a DC engine run on the DCC address for non-decoder equipped engines? Is it hard on the motor? I would assume this would not allow any DCC equipped engines to run during this time, since the DCC voltage is being varied to the rail. Or am I mistaken?My main complaint is the engine terminal. I have a medium sized (15 engine capacity) terminal and getting the engines out that are blocked in by others can be a pain. Sometimes I like to switch the terminal as well. Jim
Chip and Simon,
Thanks for the replies.
Well, start up at $300-400 is not too bad and the rest can be done a little at a time I guess. Has the price been dropping, like most electronics?
How well does a DC engine run on the DCC address for non-decoder equipped engines? Is it hard on the motor? I would assume this would not allow any DCC equipped engines to run during this time, since the DCC voltage is being varied to the rail. Or am I mistaken?
My main complaint is the engine terminal. I have a medium sized (15 engine capacity) terminal and getting the engines out that are blocked in by others can be a pain. Sometimes I like to switch the terminal as well.
The main thing you want to know about running a DC engine on DCC is that you don't want it to remain sitting for a long period of time as it might overheat. If you plan to set it on the layout, use your blocks to shut down that part of the track. As for perfomance. I've not seen much of a issue, although there is a slight audible buzz whn idle.
DCC engines do just fine when a DC engine is running.
BRAKIE wrote:Tom and Chip,Not really..Most ADVANCED 4 x 8 foot layout designs was meant for one train operation at best with 6 or 7 car train length any more then that you end up with the old "engine chasing the caboose" syndrome..Even with small rtw layouts its best to stick with single train and small train lengths as this adds distance to small rtw layouts..This is especially true for rtw industrial switching layouts.Advanced layout designers has known for years less is best for small layouts.I have agreed with that philosophy long before DCC.
Larry,
I guess I would partially agree with the statement that "less is best for small layouts". While I whole-heartedly agree and hold to the philosophy that "less is more", I look at that and your particular statement more from the standpoint of making a small layout simpler to operate and less cluttered "looking". That doesn't mean that I can't have one small train operating the mainline while I have another industrial switcher is switching out a couple of cars on a siding somewhere. DCC makes this simpler and easier from my perspective.
As I stated before, if you only have plans for running one train at a time on your layout, DC or DCC come out to be pretty much even. However, add another locomotive or throttle to the mix, to me, DCC comes out ahead.
Larry, I have no qualms about DC or those who decide to stick with it. However, on occasion, while one locomotive is circling the main, I enjoy moving one of my steamers onto the servicing track and replenishing it's tender with coal and water so that it's ready for it's next run. DCC makes that much easier for me.
Jim, IMO you are the classic example for whom the switch to DCC is far from a trivial decision. You are probably looking at spending an additional $20 per loco to convert them. Having said that, you can get some excellent "fleet" decoders from companies like NCE that can be purchased for a lot less and still provide excellent performance. Bottom line you are looking at spending north of $550 on decoders alone. Of course you don't have to do it all at once, just as I am sure you did not paint and detail and re-motor all the locos at once. I suspect that you spent more per loco on motors, details and paint than the cost of a decoder for each loco. You were willing to spend the time and money to get the visible details right, there are some that would argue why not do the same for the operational detail?
Not all starter DCC systems are obsolete the day they are installed. Digitrax, NCE and with much promise and fanfare MRC, offer starter sets that can be expanded and grow and don't become obsolete. I do agree with your thinking that there is likely to be changes in technology over the next few years. If I were in your shoes I would be very tempted to take a wait-and-see approach.
Soo Line fan wrote: I have close to 40 engines. All have been detailed, many are re-powered with expensive can motors and some I have custom painted. How much would it cost to convert over I am not talking about a starter set that would be obsolete the day after it is installed or cheap low-end decoders.
Digitrax Zephyr $150
40 full-function decoders bought in bulk $400-500
Average half hour per engine install time.
And the fact of the matter is you probably only run 10-12 on a regular basis and most DCC systems will run a DC loco on 00--so your occasional-runners are handled.
So you could probably get away under $300 realistically.
BRAKIE wrote:Looks like the manufacturers wants to open up their sales to the DC market..So the DCC future doesn't look so bright from their eyes..
Looks like the manufacturers wants to open up their sales to the DC market..
So the DCC future doesn't look so bright from their eyes..
Not to be the north end of a southbound horse, but that is a giant leap in logic. What the manufacturers want to do is offer their products to the widest range of customers as possible so long as the cost of doing so is not prohibitive. In other words, why limit potential sales unnecessarily, particularly when the overall market is not huge to start with. That is what is going on.
Back to the original question, nobody on this forum can really answer that. Everybody has to weigh the pluses and minuses and assess the cost to come up with their own decision. I tried DCC 4 or 5 years ago, and now wouldn't go back. For what I want to do, it is simpler and provides me more flexibility in things like signaling and potential operating schemes later on. But those things are not everyone's cup of tea or mug of beer.
Like many things in this hobby and the world in general, there is no one size fits all answer or even definite lines that can answer the question.
TA462 wrote:I always tell people that if you plan on running 2 loco's or more at the same time then get DCC. Chip summed it up perfectly, "Why drive a Yugo when a Beemer is sitting at your doorstep with the door open and the keys in the ignition." DC is old school, DCC is the present and future of model railroading.
Yup it sure is.I will repost this.
In DC you can:
You can even us DCC sound and lights with Atlas or BLIs Quantum Engineer Controller..
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=ATL325&SN=2007022122492293
Then BLI will be producing DC Sound equipped locomotives.
http://www.broadway-limited.com/
Soooo.Operate in silence no more with DC..
tstage wrote: Actually, I think that DCC is even more of an asset on a smaller layout than a larger one. With DC, your blocks are smaller (if you have more than one block) and, thereby, throwing stitches could get to be somewhat cumbersome to operate with more than one locomotive on the track.If you are operating (or plan on operating) only one locomotive at a time on your layout ever, the choice of DC or DCC is pretty much a mute point. However, if you decide you want to operate more than one locomotive at a time, to me, the scale starts tipping to the DCC side.Tom
Actually, I think that DCC is even more of an asset on a smaller layout than a larger one. With DC, your blocks are smaller (if you have more than one block) and, thereby, throwing stitches could get to be somewhat cumbersome to operate with more than one locomotive on the track.
If you are operating (or plan on operating) only one locomotive at a time on your layout ever, the choice of DC or DCC is pretty much a mute point. However, if you decide you want to operate more than one locomotive at a time, to me, the scale starts tipping to the DCC side.
I agree with Tom. I put DCC on my 4 x 8 and love it. I can also run with my kid or kids at the same time--yes on the 4 x 8. To me DC is like using a Dos computer or a slide rule. Or a driving Yugo when a Beemer is sitting at your doorstep with the door open and the keys in the ignition.
But what the heck, we still use the qwerty keyboard even though it was designed in the 1880s to slow typists down so the keys wouldn't stick in a typewriter. They developed the Dvorák keyboard in the 1920's and with a week's retraining, typists can exceed 300 wpm. Still we bang on our 1880's technology.
My guess is there will be still be codgers running DC when model trains are run using mind control.
One point must also be considered: If you are at the controls and you have to react quick - the needed button at the throttle must be right there to be pressed. Thus I prefer throttles with direct access function buttons. I don’t like the throttles with these multifunction buttons, where you have to consider first what combination have to be pressed, if things become critical. Also should the programming of the decoders be easy. Kenkal suggested in this forum to try the different systems, do that whenever possible.
Good luck,Rene.
That's why I returned to DC on my industrial switching layout..DCC IMHO is overkill on small layouts where its best to run one train such as a 4 x 8 or even a 5 x 9..Its been question on small around the walls layouts as well.This last question was raise by the Prototypical Operation Sig I am a member of.So everybody will know we was discussing train overkill during operations by use of DCC on small rtw layouts.BTW..80% of the members use DC in one form or the other from CTC16 to single power packs.Some use the old Astic(sp?) system.
I think the question of whether it's worth it comes down to one thing - independent train operation.
If you run more than one train (even if you don't do a lot of switching) and want to control them independently by simply controlling their speed and the turnouts for routing, then DCC might be worth it for you.
If you enjoy meets and passes on a single track layout without elaborate toggling of blocks and mini-blocks, then DCC might be worth it to you.
If you want to have a guest over and let them run a train while you run another without a prolonged discussion of toggles and Cab A vs Cab B, then DCC might be worth it to you.
It was for me, but everyone's different.
Mike Tennent
I'm not trying to talk anyone into a command system they don't want but your post made me puzzel over a few things.
Virginian wrote:Just one specific instance. I don't particularly like switching, as in spotting cars, making up trains. I do like running, and changing routes.
Until they eliminate the need for blocks for reversing polarity when reversing route(s), just like in DC, there is no advantage in this instance, for me. So they make an automatic reverser.
And, if they can make such a split second wonder gizmo, why can't they put protection on every system and every decoder so that even if I accidently wire the wall socket to the track everything is protected?
All that constant lighting stuff down the drain.
Wait a minute. How can anyone say it is worth it for someone else ? This is the question each person has to answer for themselves. But, that is not good enough for some people. They want you to agree with them sooooooo bad.
I am just about to embark on a new layout. I have decided it is not worth it for me. At least not yet. As things improve, I will see. Just one specific instance. I don't particularly like switching, as in spotting cars, making up trains. I do like running, and changing routes. Until they eliminate the need for blocks for reversing polarity when reversing route(s), just like in DC, there is no advantage in this instance, for me. So they make an automatic reverser. Great, but my thumb still works, too. And, if they can make such a split second wonder gizmo, why can't they put protection on every system and every decoder so that even if I accidently wire the wall socket to the track everything is protected? And I will have to rewire every single engine except my BLIs and PCMs. All that constant lighting stuff down the drain.
If it suits your style of operating, wonderful, be happy, I am happy for you.
STOP! Don't even think of buying a system until you actually try the ones you are interested in. Save yourself a lot of grief and regrets. If you try a system and love it, you'll be happy, whether it's Digitrax or NCE or Lenz or.... The important thing is that you found someone with a system for you to try, for all the systems you are interested in, you know ahead of time what's important to you, what the system has to do, etc. Be sure and read the doc, hold the controller in your hand, start a train up, no, start up 2, go forwards and backwards, recall a loco, use momentum, do some simple consisting, try the whistle and bell if there is a sound decoder. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy based on what someone else likes or just on documentation or just on a hobby store's recommendation (he likely sells what has most profit for him anyway). Try them ALL that you are interested in. I do suggest that you don't buy the cheapest system you can, you'll regret it. Also, be very careful if you are thinking of the MRC system -- talk with some users.
Also, consider joining some of the DCC Yahoo forums -- there are groups for all the manufacturers systems. Everyday users will answer all your questions and share their experiences with you.
I use the NCE Power/Pro and am 100% happy. Went DCC 2 years ago and not once did I look back. Run your trains, not your track!
Good luck! Ken
beegle55 wrote: I am on the edge of buying a DCC system and all the goodies to go with it including decoders, sound decoders, turnout and accesories control... you get the point. At a bare minimun for two locos and the basic system that will do me good, I am looking at around $300. I now have three locos that I at least want decoders in, maybe one with sound, so thats adding it on. I like NCE powercabs and I have always liked the MRC products, and the prodigy express looks good as well. I am wondering after having big regrets before the buy that will, as always, comes with a good case of buyers remorse. So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system?? Thanks in advance for the replys and advice. -beegle55
I am on the edge of buying a DCC system and all the goodies to go with it including decoders, sound decoders, turnout and accesories control... you get the point. At a bare minimun for two locos and the basic system that will do me good, I am looking at around $300. I now have three locos that I at least want decoders in, maybe one with sound, so thats adding it on. I like NCE powercabs and I have always liked the MRC products, and the prodigy express looks good as well. I am wondering after having big regrets before the buy that will, as always, comes with a good case of buyers remorse. So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system?? Thanks in advance for the replys and advice.
I went the Digitrax Super Chief Radio route and added two additional boosters, some DS64s and a Locobuffer II. I probably have around $1200 in it so far. Well worth the price. After looking at the complexity DC would have been when I have 10-20 locomotives parked on the layout and trying to move just the right one, it became a non brainer. Now after installing the DS64s and using local routes, I am hooked on DCC control of turnouts. I also built an adapter to power building lights with DCC control but not take power from the track. It adds a whole new dimension to model railroading, especially with sound. I haven't played much yet with Decoder Pro for computer control but as soon as layout construction slows down, I'll be sucking all of my locomotive configurations into it for starters. I highly recommend DCC. As for systems, well everyone has an opinion.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Driline wrote: BRAKIE wrote:No,yes and Depends..I went from DC to DCC and returned to DC..You guys can have DCC.Its a rip.You must be really old. I bet your 45 or something like that...
BRAKIE wrote:No,yes and Depends..I went from DC to DCC and returned to DC..You guys can have DCC.Its a rip.
You must be really old. I bet your 45 or something like that...
Even older, as old as you are young.
beegle55 wrote:Thanks for all the replys. I think that the Digitrax system is the one for me. I will get it and hopefully a new loco set up and running, then once the bank is built back up, a might add a walk-around throttle. Thanks again, beegle55.
You won't be sorry. DCC and digital sound in locos are two of the greatest enhancements I have seen in this hobby. I was very happy without either for many years but now that I have experienced both, I'd never want to go make to old fashioned locos again. I've been spoiled.
DCC is definitely worth it for loco control. For turnout control, it depends on how you want to do things. In some respects control at/near the turnout makes sense to me, though on cases where the turnouts would be remotely thrown in 'real life' there is some attraction to remoting them on the layout. Even then, DCC may or may not be the method you choose. Might save some $.
DCC is the way to go - especially if you are going to run sound engines. Accessory and turnout control may be an area you don't need to get into immediately. What finally won me over was the simplicity of the track wiring compared to DC block wiring using a bunch of switches to control the track. With DCC, you control the trains, not the track.
I have an NCE PowerCab system, which I paid maybe $150 for. It is a self-contained "starter" set, which can accept one additional Cab, and also there is a more powerful booster available for expansion. If you want to go with a "non-starter" set, you need to spend quite a bit more money. In the future, if you get a bigger system, the PowerCab throttle can be used with the new system as a ProCab throttle, so there wouldn't be alot of money thrown away.
I have installed TCS and NCE decoders - I liked both. I have NOT attempted a sound install yet. I'm having trouble rounding up info on sound decoders, except that universally, MRC sound decoders have a poor reputation. I did purchase a Proto 2000 080 with QSI sound - it's pretty nice, and very LOUD when you first turn it on.
Enjoy!
beegle55 wrote:So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you DCC is dirt cheap for what one gets for it. The only person I don't recommend DCC for is someone who will only ever have a single locomotive.
DCC is dirt cheap for what one gets for it. The only person I don't recommend DCC for is someone who will only ever have a single locomotive.
I have an NCE PowerCab and love it. Right now I have a Soundtraxx decoder in just one Athearn CF7 and it operates on my Timesaver layout. The locomotive runs smoother on DCC making operation better. The sound is neat too. Having a hand held controler is so much better than the old power pack. Though you could add hand held with DC by the time you paid for it the whole DC system is not much less than a low cost DCC system. I waited quite some time to get DCC but I can now say that even if all I ever could have is one loco I'd go with DCC for sure. Bruce
Be aware that the Zephyr beginner set does NOT include a walk around throttle. It's a cool looking stationary power pack that has a handle like a real loco throttle and a separate forward reverse handle. At Tony's you can buy it for $159.99. Add a few decoders for 20 bucks a piece and your up and running for less than 200 dollars.
The NCE power cab beginner unit IS in fact a 7 foot tethered walk around throttle that fits well in the hand and enables you to move about a small layout throwing your turnouts and uncoupling cars. It sells for $139.99 at Tony's train exchange. So for about the same price as the Zephyr you can also be up and running with a few decoders for under $200.
They are both good starter systems. I don't care for the MRC prodigy express. I've used one and it takes two hands to operate plus it felt sort of cheap. Also DON'T buy MRC sound decoders. Many people have had problems with them.I don't care what the fanboys say, stay away from them.
Dan
beegle55,
It the Tech II's are straight DC, no pulse power, they will work fine with a Zephyr. As I mentioned before, Digitrax recommends a 'smooth' power supply. Any straight DC power pack will work. I have, as an experiment, used a Bachmann train set power supply without problems. It gave as good of loco response as my Railpower 1300s.
To use the jump ports, connect the DC output from your power pack to the proper connections on the back of the Zephyr. There are connections for two power packs (2-jump ports).
Once connected, the power packs act as DCC throttles.
If you want to run an analog (DC) loco, you can run one at a time on any one of the throttles on address 00.
The Zephyr manual is available for download from Digitrax as a PFD file. The site is here:
http://www.digitrax.com/
Read through the manual, particularly the getting started section and you will see how easy getting started with DCC can be.
Again, good luck!
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
The Tech II's arent jumpy power packs at all. They provide pretty constant 18 volts to my loco's when the track and trucks are cleaned properly. I was just wondering how the jump ports worked.
beegle55 wrote:So my question on this post is a simple one, what systems have you purchased, the price range, and is it truely worth the expense and trouble of replacing and already established DC system??
I actually started using command control for trains long before DCC came out. The main command unit cost $800, throttles were $100-$210, and the cheapest decoders if purchased in bulk were $49 each. And those are 1979 dollars! I have never regretted it, and have wondered all those years why it took everyone else so long to figure it out. In fact, I sort of snicker at the people who have recently (within the last 10 years) converted and act like they have discovered something brand new. Ditto for the sound.
If your Tech2 power packs have pulse power they will cause problems on the jump ports. The pulse, confuses the 'logic' in the system and you may get some weird loco response. Digitrax recommends a 'smooth' power pack be attached to them.
My little MRC Railpower 1300s work just fine.
Thanks for the reply Mark! I have pretty well decided on a Digitrax Zephyer started set, because it is really reliable and flexible from what I hear, and thats about all I need, and unlike other starter sets, it allows for way more expansion.
beegle55 wrote:Thanks for the replys. C&Ofan, I have three Tech 2's and I was going to keep a couple for opertating some isolated railways. I looked at Digitrax, they seem pretty user friendly, but I am going to get some advice off of my favorite hobby store owner, he's pretty good with all hobbies, although he isn't an HO specialist. All this advice really helps. I still like the NCE's, but a radio Procab is $700! I think maybe the similar MRC or Digitrax is the lower priced things for me, because my layout isnt top end by any means! Plus the limited budget has the biggest influence of all! Thanks, beegle55.
I got the Radio Power Pro a couple years ago, and I haven't looked back! It has enhanced how I run trains tremendously! It has also simplified wiring the layout tremendously.
I bought my system from a dealer for about $450, as I recall. I don't think they're doing business anymore, though. Check Litchfield Station (litchfieldstation.com) - they have the radio Power Pro for about $560. The non-radio Power Pro is about $390. Also check out Tony's trains (tonystrains.com) - his prices are comparable. You may be able to find others with similar pricing.
If you can possibly scrape up the cash and are seriously bitten by the MR bug, bite the bullet and go with DCC, even if you can only manage a starter set now. You'll be glad you did.
I have a Digitrax Zephyr, a UR91 radio reciever, and 3 DT400R radio throttles that I use to run my 25' x 50' HO layout. I have found that my layout enjoyment has skyrocketed compared to using DC analog (which is what I had first). Wireless control is the best thing going, and was well worth the added expense to me.
My club also uses Digitrax, the Chief system. The club has two UR91 recievers, 14 DS54 stationary decoders, 1 DS44 stationary decoder, 8 BDL168 block detectors, 1 PM42 autoreverser, 32 PS-type circuit breakers, 8 DB200 8amp boosters, plus a couple SE8c signal decoders and RX-8 transponding receivers that we haven't installed yet. And our layout is only about 1/3rd complete (it will be about 6300 sq. ft. when done). Now our club is an extreme example of layout engineering, and not too many home layouts will have all that (unless you want block detection, signalling, & transponding).
For prices, go to www.tonystrains.com
My club is celebrating our 69th year, and up until 1998, we were firmly a DC analog club. We had a 2500 sq. ft. layout, with 8 mainline cabs (50 toggles ea.), with 12 freight yard cabs of various sizes, plus several local branchline cabs here and there. We had two towerman and one dispatcher with a TelCo. communication system to all operators.
When we moved, we went DCC and haven't regretted it.
DCC is definitely the way to go. My BRVRR was built as a DCC layout, but a smaller predecessor was converted to DCC by just plugging in the control console. I am not familiar with the NCE systems, but have heard good things about them. Most local users of DCC use Lenz. Again, I'm not familiar with them, except in a limited way.
I would stay away from the beginner sets particularly MRC. Expansion down the road is inevitable and most of the beginner sets don't expand well. I have a Digitrax Zephyr. It has operated flawlessly for almost four years now. With a couple of power packs on the jump ports you instantly have three independent throttles to operate trains. I added a DT400 throttle for portability and versatility. I never regretted it.
I recently added a LocoBuffer-USB to my system. I can now program decoders with a mouse click. Great stuff and almost fool proof.
Back to the point. I use a mix of Digitrax, TCS, MRC sound, Soundtraxx, Broadway Limited (Quantum) and Lenz decoders and can program all of them without trouble. To get the most out of your sound locos, DCC is the way to go.
I'm obviously a Digitrax fan, but don't write off the Zephyr system. It is fully functional, expandable, well supported and economical. Don't be concerned with its 2.5 amp rating. I have run as many as 8 locos at the same time. Four-5 with sound and never had an overload. My basic system, the Zephyr and Digitrax decoders for my then smaller loco fleet (10-12) cost less than your target budget.
I have pictures posted of my DCC system set-up on my website. Just push the Layout button and scroll down the page.
Whatever system you choose, you will never regret the change to DCC. Run your trains and not the layout.
Yes and No
How's that for a wishey washey answer ?
I bought a Digitrac Zephyr for $150 plus an additional UT-4 hand throttle plus some cable and an additional plug in panel
So at just over $200 I can now run DCC
But I have the layout wired for both because there are some locos I want to run that I will never convert because of cost and poor skills
The catch is While some of the newer locos will run either way
Some of the older converted locos won't
The Zephyr can run either way but when running DC you get a Buzzing sound from the loco
So i set up a seperate power pack with a double throw center off switch
So i guess in my case since the cost was low it was worth it
Who knows what the future will bring
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
DCC is without a doubt the way to go these days. Do yourself a favor DONT but a "Beginner" or "starter" set. Within the first week you figure it out you will just be kicking yourself in the butt on the money you just wasted. I must admit I am a NCE fan so I would say save up a little more and get a full featured Pro Cab. The diference is worth the wait,
Just my thoughts.
Good Luck
Well, I like switching and have some sidings that I would like to have truley independant control on the switchers and the loco's on the main line. I think it would be a fairly easy (and maybe safer) to rewire everything to accompany DCC because my wiring is about 20+ years old and is probably a pretty high electrical fire risk, and my 2 year old niece is really excited about 'choo choos' and I don't want her getting shocked by any bare or frayed wires. A 23' by 5' layout might be better off with DCC. I'll just have to wait and see what I can sell and how much money I can come up with. Thanks for the reply.
For a new layout there is no doubt in my mind that DCC is the way to go. Now, if you have a really well functioning DC layout that is easy to run and a joy to operate then maybe not. If you don't think that you will benefit from the DCC advantages then again maybe not. For me, I love the advantages of DCC, I can never imagine going back to a DC control system. I really enjoy the PC applications for tweaking and playing with the loco drive and lighting functions (not to mention the sound). My layout was designed to be DCC from the get-go. I have never once regretted the purchase. $300 is the price of 1 higher-end loco. That $300 spent on your DCC system will IMO significantly increase your overall enjoyment.
BUT, that is my opinion and it may not be for you.