Paul:
I do have a couple of QSI units and am familiar with the F9 shut down, although I often forget to use it.
Even when everyting is muted and I shut down, when I power back up all of the sound comes on and stays on until I mute again. Maybe this is unique to Lenz. Lenz tells me there is no way to prevent this, at least on their system.
I have 7 other non-sound locos and I assume that they draw no current until they are running. Of course, whether sound or non-sound I would very rarely have more than 2 or 3 locos moving at the same time, and normally have no more than one sound unit turned on at any given time.
Wow.....I just noticed that I've been spelling Zephyr incorrectly for a long time.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jwils1,About your sound units... Are they QSI equipped? If they are, you can "shut down" the loco so that you don't have to manually turn them off all the time. You double-click F9 once, and it goes to "Disconnect" (sounds all work, engine doesn't move). Double-click again, and it goes to "Stand By" (engine goes to idle, other sounds don't operate, engine doesn't move). Double-click one more time, and the loco goes to "Shut Down" (engine shuts off, all sounds don't operate, engine doesn't move). To start it up again, double-click F6 once, and she'll start up from "Disconnect", "Stand By", or "Shut Down".
The nice thing about it is that when "Shut Down", they don't make any noise when the layout is powered up. None.
Otherwise, you can simply hit F8 to mute them (on most sound decoders). Your system should remember that when you power it down...so when you power it back up, then locos will make about a second or two of sound before they get the message that they are supposed to be muted.
Oh, and I should spell it out before I forget... All sound decoders that have capacitors will draw "In Rush" current even if they are "shut down" or muted. One way to get around this is to have your engine facility wired to a toggle so that one can isolate the locos and prevent them from drawing power when they are not in use (it's also a good way to keep them muted).
Hmm... 8 sound locos on a Zephyr? I think it would be ok for "In Rush" current, but that would require testing to make sure. Or, like I said, a delay circuit of some kind would also do the trick (someone over on the Atlas Forum posted a diagram to do-it-yourself).
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I hope he's not selling DT400's for $185, MSRP is $180. Now a DT400R with radio for $185 would be a good deal. But to do radio you also need the radio receiver.
Strange though it might seem, the Zephyr plus DT400 is actually a much more capable system than the Super Empire Builder.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Good deal.
You dont want the Super Empire Builder. Trust me. Those CV's need to be read. A 5 amp Chief will do you very well. Just remember that the power supply likely will be seperate purchase. ( I think, mine was seperate)
Jerry, thanks for the information and will re read later at work. I saw Lenz on Tony's Trains and like the idea of a 10 warranty. Glad someone that has one spoke up about it. Like I said I will read all of the posting again and think about the pro's and cons.
Zepher is out, with the TH400 thottle it cost more than the Empire bulider at K-10. Empire Bulider is $279.99 + $43.00 for 5 Amp power pack. Zepher is $149.99 + $185.00 for the TH400? I will double check but I believe he has a Super Cheif with radio for $450.00. Hum, I like radio control.
Thanks for all the answer's fellow MRR's, and don't pick on the Lenz guy. After all, I am running a Bachmann E-Z!
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Thanks for your response. For your info, I almost bought a Zepher a couple of years ago. The only reason that I didn't was because I had an Atlas Commander (made by Lenz). By going with Lenz, the Commander gave me an extra throttle, and I got 5 amps which I thought would be best in the long.
I follow many of the DCC threads because I do hope to buy a second system someday so I want to know as much as I can about all of them. And, with my Lenz experience I can sometimes be of help to those with questions.
Keep in mind that I've been thinking all along that 5 amps was the best way to go. So, when I realized that Ken could get the extra 2.5 amps for only another $10 or $11, I thought he should be aware of it. I posted in a hurry (because my wife was waiting for me) and simply but put up a list that looked like a Lenz sales pitch. I can understand why you take it that way.
Now that you have clarified the 2.5 vs 5.0 amp thing that makes a lot of difference. That was very informative and helpful for me and I'm sure for others, including Ken. I've never really heard it explained that well before.
I have 8 sound units, and when I power up they all come on (very annoying) and I have to methodically turn each one off every time I start operating. My units are all fairly new so it sounds like I would be fine, even with 2.5 amps.
Now, what you are saying about a possible Digitrax duplex radio DT400 is going to be really exciting news for many people. Don't know what the cost might be but this could be a huge selling point that will overcome a lot of people's previous objections to Digitrax. Not that they really need any more market share!
Thanks again for your help.
jwils1,All I'm saying is that if one went to a N-scale topic, and started to list the benefits of HO-scale, what kind of reaction would one expect to get? Or what if one went to an auto forum's Chevy thread, and listed the benefits of Ford? Or went to a computer forum thread about IBM's and listed the benefits of Apple?
The only logical reason that I could see to do so is to either to sell someone on the other product, or belitte the competition for fun. And since it doesn't appear to be a mean spirited smack down on Digitrax, I assumed you're trying to convert Ken to Lenz.
As for the DT400R and the "plug in" problem, I talked with the Digitrax rep. at the Springfield (MA) Show last month, and while he couldn't promise a date, he stated that he thought that the Digitrax duplex radio throttles would be released this year...still using a 9v battery and getting typical Digitrax radio range. He said that right now, they have a prototype working, but they want to get the radio range over 100' if they can before they release it...right now it's more like 25'. He seemed confidant that this problem would be solved soon.
As for the 2.5amp vs. 5amp question....The big deal is modern equipment (non-sound) vs. old school stuff. Most any modern designed loco with a can motor uses something like 0.5amps under spinning wheel conditions, if that. Under normal operation, that amp rating may be something like 0.1amps, maybe 0.25amps. IOW, it ain't much. Now, in the old days, using old Athearn drives with metal trucks and "silver" motors, each loco would use a full 1.0amp...sometimes more. Old brass, old MDC, old Varney, old Mantua, old Hobbytown...any of those all-metal, open frame motor jobs could easily take a 1.0amps.
On my HO layout, on a typical night, I'm using 2 or 3 Atlas S-2's, a Stewart AS16 (it's not mine), Atlas RS-11's, Atlas RS-1's, LLP2K FA's, etc. Almost all from the 1990's or later, IOW. Modern models that all take a lot fewer amps than the old stuff.
A lot of the "full blown" system talk (must have 5amps...no, must have 8amps...no, get 10amps!) is all just sales talk. Unless you are going to be running a lot of older equipment, or unless you are going to be running a lot of equipment, period, then you really don't need that much power.
Now, the exception to the rule is sound equipped locos. They (mostly) all have capacitors that keep the sound effects going over dead spots and dirty track. However, these all want to charge up whenever power is turned on. So what can happen is that you have an "in rush" current that exceeds the circuit breaker and pops it...but this is only if you have a lot of sound locos...like a dozen or more. There are fixes where you make a delay circuit that gradually powers up the system (all less than a second) so that the caps charge without tripping the booster's circuit breaker. Or you just get a big amperage booster that can handle the cap's in rush current.
But if you don't have sound, you don't have that problem.
You can have lots of volts. You build up insane amounts of voltage petting a long hair cat on a carpeted floor in winter time.
But it's the Amps that kill. You might get a shock and nuke that cat with the hand trying to pet it too much when voltage overcomes resistance. But grab hold of a humming feeder line on a transmission tower you are going to be toasted very quickly and burnt before you realize what's happening.
A radar jammer in a car only puts out 1.5 watts of energy and barely interferes with a police radar gun 5 inches away. A military jammer on a B-52 puts out enough wattage to kill birds near or fry people on the ground. Such a device can kill police radars for 50 miles.
Does that help?
Paul3 wrote: jwils1,Why are you trying to sell Ken on Lenz? If he's "95%" sure that's the way he wants to go, then why not support his decision rather than trying to change his mind?In a more general sense, why do DCC owners go to a thread titled about a competing system in the first place? If I saw a thread titled: "One last Lenz DCC controller question", I would skip right over it. As a Digitrax-user, what could I answer about Lenz controller issues? Not much.
jwils1,Why are you trying to sell Ken on Lenz? If he's "95%" sure that's the way he wants to go, then why not support his decision rather than trying to change his mind?
In a more general sense, why do DCC owners go to a thread titled about a competing system in the first place? If I saw a thread titled: "One last Lenz DCC controller question", I would skip right over it. As a Digitrax-user, what could I answer about Lenz controller issues? Not much.
Well I apologize if I made it sound like I was trying to "sell" Ken on Lenz. I kind of rushed that response and maybe could have worded it much better. It just dawned on me that for $11 more one could get a 5 amp system that seemed to do the things that Ken wanted to do. No way am I going to try to sell someone on my system. You've got to know a great deal about a person and their situation before ever attempting that.
Like I say, maybe my presentation sounded like a sales job but the list of Lenz features was something that I had typed up earlier to help me consider a possible change in my system so I just copied it. Sorry about the German thing. I copied that from another website, but the "rock solid engineering" thing is a fact. I don't care where it was engineered if it works well.
Let me say that I love DCC. I'm fascinated and intrigued by it. I look at many DCC threads regardless of the brands mentioned because I'm anxious to learn more and more about it. So, Paul, I appreciate your comments (and have a question about this 2.5 amp thing - see below). I sincerely appreciate your comments Paul, and a lot of other comments from people like Texas Zepher, rrinker, simon1966, cjcrescent, tstage and many others. For me this forum is for sharing, helping and informing and that's great. And that was what I was trying to do with Ken. This is an amazing hobby with some very fine people involved in it and I'm thankful for that.
For Ken, I made positive comments about Digitrax, PowerCab and Lenz. Hopefully that was sharing and informing and I'm sorry if anyone took it another way. I've been 95% sure of buying something in the past only to find something out at the last minute that totally changed my direction. I'm sure that Ken is smart enough to take everything we say with a grain of salt.
There are two particular reasons why I have been looking at many different DCC systems:
So, over the last few months I have looked at Digitrax, NCE, EasyDCC, MRC, Atlas (these are very hard to find now but great for a non-sound N scale layout) and of course Lenz. I've read all of the manuals, touched and handled all of the throttles (except for EasyDCC) and have a pretty good feel for what all of them are like and can do. And the truth is that you can hardly go wrong with any of them.
So, for my HO layout I concluded that I can't do any better than my Lenz Set 100 that I already have. And for N scale it's a tough choice between PowerCab and Zepher. Depending on the shape of the layout, the tethered PowerCab might break the tie.
This long post will probably bore most of you but one point I want to make is that, just as no two fingerprints are alike, no two modelers situations are exactly alike.
For example, I'm 73 years old, and even though I've been interested in model railroading since age 15, I finally got to start a real layout just 3 ½ years ago, and luckily got started with DCC (Atlas Commander).
Because I'm not so agile anymore I have to do thing a bit different than I would have at age 30 or 40. Bench-work (actually table-top), track type, switch machines wiring, scenery, weathering and train control all have to be suited to my situation and abilities (or lack thereof). And, I wanted to get things running quickly because I'm running out of time!!
One thing that I've really wanted was radio control. While I can see and run my entire layout from a seated position at my control panel (computer screen), I do need walk-around capability for switching and trouble-shooting. I already have too many throttles for one person but still want to try radio.
My present throttles are Lenz LH100, LH90 and Cordless phone, Atlas Commander and 8 throttles displayed on my computer screen (ZugDCC for Lenz users $25). So I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I've now ordered the new CVP radio throttle made for the Lenz system (T9000 which now has a display and 80 hour battery life). I just love this stuff!
At one time, I was a bit critical of the Digitrax DT400R because of the need to "plug-in" to acquire locos. And while this wouldn't be best for me, because during an operating session, I like to have fairly quick access to up to 5 locos (not all running at once), I really think that the plug in feature wouldn't be all that bad. Yes, I do like Digitrax very much. I even like their manuals and their website is the best I've seen. I hope it's okay if I keep reading Digitrax threads!
Oh, I almost forgot my 2.5 amp question. I hope Paul sees this:
2.5 amp question: I was surprised as to how much Paul could run with his Zepher. You read so much about people stating how certain systems can be upgraded to "full blown" 5 amp systems. It's like this is just the thing that many are going to want to do some day. So, (1) what would be the reasons for needing to go from 2.5 to 5 amps and (2) do sound units draw the same current when muted as they do when turned on?
I have a structural engineering background and only wish I had paid more attention to my electrical courses. I really need help when it comes to amps, watts, ohms and all of that stuff.
Well, I'd better stop but thanks again to all who do such a good job in sharing and informing.
P.S. I can get you a real good deal on a Lenz system (just kidding).
Another good point, Carey. It takes at most 6 button pushes to key in a full 4-digit loco number, at least with Digitrax and NCE. If you locor number is only 3 digits, like 501, now it's only 5 presses. So pressing a button 30 times to get to a previously selected loco addresses is better how? Even on a system designed for Europe, where many trains use more the 4 digits for the number, it's still fewer presses to key in the number on the side of the loco than it is to scroll through some sort of huge list. I think I used the recall stack on the DT400 once, just to see how it worked. The recall stack on the DT400 is actually configurable to be 4, 8, or 16. The default is 4, which is actually quite usable, you can pick from any of 4 previous locos with less button pressing than keying in the full number. But get beyond that and we are back to where it takes less button pressing to just key the dang address in.
cudaken wrote: Simon, you meet me! I was the fat guy dressed in black and look like a bum. Brown on my sweet pants is plaster from my new moutain. I was glad you and the kids where there. I hardly ever get to be there when Ken runs the bench with the hours I work. Now if Phillip only learns to enjoy slow speeds. Cuda Ken
Simon, you meet me! I was the fat guy dressed in black and look like a bum. Brown on my sweet pants is plaster from my new moutain.
I was glad you and the kids where there. I hardly ever get to be there when Ken runs the bench with the hours I work. Now if Phillip only learns to enjoy slow speeds.
Well, next time I will make sure I say hello!! I was rather preoccupied trying to help the birthday boy get round the layout. Ken normally would not run the layout on a Wednesday like that but the family had driven all the way from Wentzville to see it in action. I just volunteered to help guide them round the 2 main loops while Ken worked in the store. My youngest was with me so he had to run a train as well
I was asking Ken some stats on the layout as I had never really discussed with him the Digitrax implementation that he has.
The whole layout is about 4800 ft square. The total main line run if you take one loop after the other is about 550'. There are several huge yards and dozens of industries. Running the thing he has a DCS100 Command station and 7 boosters. There are 2 radio receiver panels handling the wireless. There are no dead spots in the room. (He used to have only i receiver and there was a dead spot at one end). Very long trains can be run usually double headed but often tripple. The longest we ran yesterday was about 20'. In a regular operating session 25 trains can run at the same time without getting too much in each others way. Anyway, I thought this was kind of interesting as it shows you the scalability of the system.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Paul;
Yours is a good answer too. You beat me on some of the points I was making as well. I just don't type very fast.
Nite' all.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Randy;
Very good answer you have given. It is amazing how "myths" perpetuate esp about DCC and its various brand names. In another forum several days ago, someone stated he didn't like Digitrax because he didn't want to have to program in Hex! Good Grief! I owned an Empire Builder with the old DT-100 throttle for seven years before I got a Super Chief and I NEVER programmed in hex, neither did I have to sell my first born to the devil to consist locos either, the way some folks have you to believe how "hard" Digitrax is to use.
The important thing is that the differences between the most popular TOTL systems nowadays is no longer technical, but simply esthetic or ergonomic. They all do what each other does just as easy and just as well. Anything that doesn't involve direct operation of a locomotive in any DCC system is what we call here a "fiddle with". Thats something that is not really necessary for the smoothe operation of a loco or locos. Here's an example: Lenz's stack of 256 stored addresses. So what? If you have to push that button to scroll thru the stack more than the first 6 numbers, it has become a "fiddle with". Because with the same amount of button pushes (6), with for example a DT-400, I've chosen and starting running a loco while you're still there "fiddling" with the stack. Thats why I ask someone whose wants advice on what system to buy is, "Whats the most popular sytem used in your area?" If you don't know ask your MR buddies, your LHS. (Unless you are really the only MRR for 100 miles around, then it doesn't matter what system you use.)
If you are like the vast majority of MRR's, (social animals), going with the most popular system in your area provides probably the most important aspect of new DCC ownership, a built in "database" of closeby, real people who have probably faced any issue you'll ever face and are readily available, and probably very eager to help you at a more personal level than ever has been provided by a phone call to a tech or on a forum. Thats why you'll not see me asking any DCC question on a forum, I don't have to. I have 40+ modelers and 2 dealers within 40 miles of me, who are more than happy to help me solve a problem.
cudaken wrote:
So if I add the DT 400 I can still only run 10 engines then. Reson why I asked is not becuause I want to run 20 at the same time, 3 is a hand full on the B line and 4, well talk about being keept on your toes! I don't want to have to change address all the time when I want to run a driffrent engine. Or am I confussing address with cab's?
Ken,You can have 1000 engines on a Zephyr-powered layout if you want. But you can only have 10 active addresses in use at any one time. Digitrax systems have 5 different modes or states that a decoder address or "slots" can be in:1) In Use - actively being used by a throttle and updated by the system (takes up slot)2) Common - not being used by a throttle, but is updated by the system (takes up slot)3) Top of Consist - system keeps track of this address (takes up slot)4) Part of Consist - system keeps track of this address (takes up clot)5) Idle - not being used by a throttle, not consisted, not being updated by the system (no slot)
Note that number's 1 through 4 take up an active slot. Only "Idle" does not. To prevent needlessly taking up slots, break MU's after using them, deselect locos after using them, and make sure that throttles are at 00% and that all functions are turned off before deselecting addresses. If you do so, that address will now be "Idle".
To get around the 10 slot limit, you can use what's called "basic" consisting, where you program, say, a 4-unit set to all the same address. Using CV29, you can set some units to run backwards while others run forwards. I've only done this once on my layout with a 4-car Budd RDC train that stays together most of the time, but it works well. Using this "basic" consisting, the limit isn't the slots, it's the 2.5 amp power supply...and using modern models, that's a lot of engines (less for sound locos, however).
But if you want to get into the reasons why Digitrax over Lenz (your comments in red):
So from the list above, the Lenz system has a better warranty and better consisting control. But with Digitrax, the other reasons are either about the same or in Digitrax' favor...sometimes significantly. So perhaps that's why someone would pick Digitrax over Lenz?
These thoughts of having many engines running around the system is too much. It is one thing to get 4 F ABBA together and press "Mush" while they walk off working together chanting under the 2+ amp load fed by a BIG power supply.
Quite another to get all the engines out of the boxes and set up on the track. What is this? A Club?
Digitrax uses a Loconet where if you are connected to it either by tether or by radio you are part of the system. It does not care who has what driving so and so down the track. But you are going to learn that occasionally the engine will miss the last packet command and keep chugging when you are trying to stop it.
Or worse have engines in a consist and then broken up and set out and all respond instantly to one command because you forgot to de-consist them.
I for one enjoy the convience of keeping bazillion address numbers in the system and only have to call them up by looking at the side of the cab for the number. But have to ask... why are we trying to run all 10+ trains at once? Are we on some kind of mega 120+ car drag that needs to be carried over 10% doomsday mountain grade in a 100 square foot room?
Eventually you will have alot of engines. That is one commandment of Model Railroading. it would be very nice if all your engines have a electonic address reserved for just that one engine.
One thing that seems to confuse people (and it didn't help that the chart they had nearly full page in MR a few months ago had a misprint that FURTHER added to the confusion) is the concept of addresses in DCC. There are over 9000 POSSIBLE addresses in DCC. However, each different system can only address a certain subset of those addresses AT ONE TIME. So no matter if your system can address 1 or 120 at a time, you can own an unlimited number of DCC locomotives. Even have them all sittign on the track at the same time. But each system will only allow you to control a certain maximum number at a time, assuming you have enough power and space to run them.
One thing with Digitrax that seems a bit unique compared to other systems is that there is no correlation between the number of locos you can run simulataneously and the number of throttles hooked up. FOr example, if you had enough power, and enough room, you could take a Super Chief set, which can address up to 120 locos at the same time, and run all 120 with just a single throttle. Good luck keeping them from crashing into one another, since only two would be under actual control and the rest would be running free on whatever the last command they got was. Obviously this is an extreme example but on a smaller scale - I have 3 total throttle knobs. The one on my Zephyr, and the two knobs on my DT400. I've tried and on my layut I can't run more than 8 without them getting into each other, but that's 5 left to circulate while I actively control 3 of them. Or I could hook up 5 DT400's and run 10 locos all under direct control. Or 10 DT400's and run 10 locos, just one per DT400 instead of two.
I don't know that you'd outgrow a Zephyr that fast. Unless you make the layout a whole lot bigger, 10 trains at a time is probably more than can really fit, without accidents. Even if others come over an run traisn with you. And if you DO eventually need more, the beauty is you can add on a piece at a time to make the system more powerful, and nothing EVER gets wasted. There are exactly two deivces in Digitrax history that do not work with current systems - the old LA1 Loconet adapter that came withthe old Big Boy system, and the CT4 throttles that came with the old Challenger system. The Challenger system was before they developed Loconet and so the throttles are not Loconet compatible. There is a company that offers a conversion kit but it's not really worth buying - unless you have one of those nifty Roco DCC crane. The cran works by selecting what you want to move with the function keys (cab swivel, boom up/down, hook/magnet up/down) and using the throttle knob to make the movement. The CT4 throttle has 4 knobs, and the conversion kit sets it up so each knob operates a different aspect of the crane.
ANyway, this has drifted far off topic. The overall idea is that you can start with the most basic set (Zephyr) and add more later, and never waste anything. The Zephyr throttle still works, and the Zephyr can be a 2.5 amp booster for a second power ditrict, even as part of a fully expanded Super Chief set.
jwils1 wrote: cudaken wrote: 7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.3 amp PowerCab with walk-around would be about $248 wheras 2.5 amp Zepher with DT400 walk-around about $299. Of course you have to add cost of plug in stations for both.
cudaken wrote: 7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.3 amp PowerCab with walk-around would be about $248 wheras 2.5 amp Zepher with DT400 walk-around about $299. Of course you have to add cost of plug in stations for both.
7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.
3 amp PowerCab with walk-around would be about $248 wheras 2.5 amp Zepher with DT400 walk-around about $299. Of course you have to add cost of plug in stations for both.
Ken: I know that you may have very good reasons for going with the Zepher. But whether of not that's a good deal may depend on how you do it. If , for budget reasons, you're going to start with just the Zepher and work your way up the upgrade ladder later then that makes a lot of sense. But, if your going to add the DT400 right away I have the following question:
Got to thinking about this and must wonder why one would want to spend $299 (plus shipping) for a 2.5 amp system when they could get a top of the line 5 amp walk-around system for $310, including power supply (plus shipping)???
Lenz Set 100 offers the following:
Hey Ken, I was at K-10 this afternoon. Got involved in an impromptu operating session for a family that had come over from MO to see the layout. I dropped in on the way back from picking the kids up from school for what should have been 5 min and ended up staying there for over and hour! Sorry I missed you, I was looking forward to possibly meeting you.
cudaken wrote: So I can program with the Zepher. Why would I need to read feed back anyway?
I don't want to have to change address all the time when I want to run a driffrent engine.
Main reason I asked about computer control is it is hard to match speeds to keep one engine from catching the other one. If the new DCC will help with that then I don't need the computer set up.
On the F fuctions, got to hear the other sounds that the BLI have. All so going try the new Bachmann with sound so I want to make sure I can hear all there is to hear.
Ken, believe me, having CV read back is well worth having. The Zephyr has read back capability.
The DT 400 when connected to the Zephyr does not increase the number of slots, so yes, you can only have up to 10 locos selected at one time. If you think about it, the DT400 has 2 controls, the Zephyr has 1 and if you use the Jump ports with some DC packs you have 2 more so you would have a total of 5 throttles to run locos. It really is not a big deal to switch address on either the Zephyr or the DT400 so I would not be too concerned about the need to change address.
Speed matching is not particularly hard to do, to get it close enough for MU. A PC interface and access to a program like Decoder Pro makes it much easier IMO.
I'm off to K-10 as well this afternoon to pick up some strip wood I ordered. Maybe see you there.
So I can program with the Zepher. Why would I need to read feed back anyway?
Thanks for all the answer's. Off to K-10 trains and check out some prices.
Ken:
One more comment regarding the number of functions needed. While most of the time I only use F0 - F4 and F8 (I use F8 to mute sound when not needed), I have to say that I'm glad I do have all 13 functions on my system for the following reasons. And these reasons may only apply to a few:
1. On QSI sound diesels, F9 is used to lower the sound to a low volume idle. And then with further clicks it shuts down the sound completely. The benefit of this shut-down over the F8 mute is that when you power down the system and then power back up, the F9 shut-down keeps the sound from coming on. When F8 is used to mute, on power up the sound comes on even though the sound had been previously muted. This is one annoying aspect of my system because every sound unit turns on when the track power is turned on.
2. Some MRC decoders use F12 to mute sound. But double-clicking F0 will do the same thing. So that's no problem except that I have one loco with a flashing beacon on top of the cab that is operated by double clicking F0. So, for this loco, I have to use F12 to mute. Of course this is my own fault for buying a loco with this set-up, and for buying MRC decoders.
cudaken wrote: 95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer...<> 8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back and enjoy.<> <>Cuda Ken
95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer...
<> 8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back and enjoy.<>
<>Cuda Ken
Ken;
If you're planning on just being able to get a program to run the layout, you better do some more planning. Our LHS has a display layout that is automated, and according to the owner the program alone was $400. (Can't remember the name, but it was from Germany.) Then he had toalso install a detection system, interfaces, stationary decoders for the turnouts, etc and then spend over 30 hours programming in the sequences, (ie the routes), so the whole setup would work. Overall he said he spent over $1500.00 just to get three trains to run in a cycle without running into each other. This layout BTW, is a simple folded oval, with six sidings total.
Automating a layout using a computer is not a simple plug and play procedure.
Do some more research, especially regarding layout automation. You may find that its more trouble (and money?) than its worth.
cudaken wrote: 95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer. 1 Soon, be able to get to F-8 fuctions and above with a extra hand held controler. I agree with Texas Zepher. Why do you think you need more than 9 functions? I used to think this too but soon found out F0 - F8 is plenty. 3 Some what soon. Be able to control 20 engines + with extra controler.Are you really going to run 20 at the same time? Or, will some be consisted together? Not sure what your layout will look like but trying to run 20 at the same time will be a wild deal! Or, maybe you plan to have several operators? If so, you will need several extra controllers. 4 Next 6 months + controls turn outs.You would have to add DT400 throttles (approx. $179) as UT4's don't throw turnouts. 7 Soon Walk around control or Radio controleed.You're probably aware that you can only control 2 locos at at time with a DT400 radio throttle. You have to "plug in" if you want to change to any other locos. I know you're pretty well sold on Digitrax and that's fine, but, be aware that with NCE PowerCab with a 3 amp booster you can immediately have walk-around capability, and, it's upgradeable to radio with no "plug-ins".3 amp PowerCab with walk-around would be about $248 wheras 2.5 amp Zepher with DT400 walk-around about $299. Of course you have to add cost of plug in stations for both.Now if you decide against throwing turnouts from your walk-around throttle, the Zepher + UT4 would be about $225. 8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back and enjoy.Again, don't know about your layout but don't think you will be able to just "sit back and enjoy" as running 20 locos from the computer, controlling turnouts, etc., will be quite a trick. On a tight budget, and from what I have read the Emiper Bulider will not let me set CV or added new uncode decoders.With a tight budget, starting with a 1.7 amp PowerCab (about $140) will run more locos than the EZ and will give you the functions that you say you need. This would be a low cost start with upgrades available as needed. You could probably run a lot of locos if you gradually added 3 amp boosters as needed in separate power districts.
95% sure this is the way I will go. What I did not like is the lack of F9 and above fuctions. Now here is what I want to be able to do and way furtuer.
1 Soon, be able to get to F-8 fuctions and above with a extra hand held controler.
I agree with Texas Zepher. Why do you think you need more than 9 functions? I used to think this too but soon found out F0 - F8 is plenty.
3 Some what soon. Be able to control 20 engines + with extra controler.
Are you really going to run 20 at the same time? Or, will some be consisted together? Not sure what your layout will look like but trying to run 20 at the same time will be a wild deal! Or, maybe you plan to have several operators? If so, you will need several extra controllers.
4 Next 6 months + controls turn outs.
You would have to add DT400 throttles (approx. $179) as UT4's don't throw turnouts.
You're probably aware that you can only control 2 locos at at time with a DT400 radio throttle. You have to "plug in" if you want to change to any other locos. I know you're pretty well sold on Digitrax and that's fine, but, be aware that with NCE PowerCab with a 3 amp booster you can immediately have walk-around capability, and, it's upgradeable to radio with no "plug-ins".
Now if you decide against throwing turnouts from your walk-around throttle, the Zepher + UT4 would be about $225.
8 In the next year, have the PC run the engines so I can sit back and enjoy.
Again, don't know about your layout but don't think you will be able to just "sit back and enjoy" as running 20 locos from the computer, controlling turnouts, etc., will be quite a trick.
On a tight budget, and from what I have read the Emiper Bulider will not let me set CV or added new uncode decoders.
With a tight budget, starting with a 1.7 amp PowerCab (about $140) will run more locos than the EZ and will give you the functions that you say you need. This would be a low cost start with upgrades available as needed. You could probably run a lot of locos if you gradually added 3 amp boosters as needed in separate power districts.
Ken: I'm not trying to talk you out of Digitrax, or into the PowerCab. I do really like them both and I don't have either one so don't think I'm biased. But sometimes one particular system just fits your specific needs a little better and it gets a little tricky trying to consider all of the possible directions to take. Good luck in your search and final decision.