BRAKIE wrote: Cliff,Wasn't your MA&G in MR or GMR?? I recall it being a publish layout but,forget which issue..Anyway I think your layout can rank with the best..
Cliff,Wasn't your MA&G in MR or GMR?? I recall it being a publish layout but,forget which issue..
Anyway I think your layout can rank with the best..
Thanks Brakie!
Yes my MA&G has been published in both magazines. My original 11x12 was in the April 2005 MR, and my recent 14x32 triple deck was in GMR 2007. Allen Keller will be here in three short weeks to film the layout for Great Model Railroads Volume 56, which will be available in May.
I will add to the discussion that for years as an apartment dweller, I was still able to enjoy the hobby by creating small dioramas to incorporate into my one day dream layout. In fact, I have a general store on my layout now that was built 15 years ago in our first apartment. At only 550 square feet, there was not even room for a shelf layout in that one! But I still enjoyed reading about the basement empires that I could only dream about at the time.
One of my very favorite project layouts in MR was the Port of Los Angeles built by Bob Smaus. If I recall, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2x6 feet, but made a big impression on me. In fact one reason I wanted to model New Orleans was for the waterfront scenes, which were largely inspired by Mr. Smaus' fine work. My plans are to create scenes of that same caliber of detail only on a much bigger scale (a 2x20 foot section of my layout).
I agree with Selector's point about being content with the space you have. I went ahead and was totally happy with my 11x12 MA&G for years. After all, it even spawned an article in MR. But my plan all along was to build it so that it could eventually be incorporated into a much larger dream layout. Even though I tweaked the route of the railroad a little, the New Orleans level will see many of the ideas and structures of the old layout come to fruition.
For me, bigger has most definitely been better. In fact, I would love to eventually expand my current building to around 32x40 feet, mainly to go with a single deck of finished scenery - - I would still have a lower level for staging only. It would also be great to have a small lounge area with a couch and a few chairs, a bathroom and a workshop area. In 10 years, God willing, we will have our new house paid for and maybe by then I'll be ready for new frontiers with the MA&G.
And I'm sure I'll think bigger is better all over again!
Cliff Powers
www.magnoliaroute.com
Cliff,Thanks! I knew it was one or the other but not both! LOL! Getting old timers-short memory- I suspect..
I will be looking forward to adding your layout video to my limited layout video collection.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Dave Vollmer wrote: Has anyone else noticed that in the pages of MR, MRP, and GMR, there seem to be more and more of the insanely huge layouts that have either the 3000-square-foot custom basement or a whole structure designed just for the layout? These are the layouts that require a dozen crewmembers to run.I'm in awe, of course, but if this is where the hobby is going I fear I won't be able to keep up! I just read through MRP 2007, and while there are some decent smaller projects, I also see track plans with things like "future site for elevator" and "the workshop and crew lounge are on the ground floor of the specially-designed layout building." Jeez! Certainly on a GI's salary I don't expect that sort of financial freedom, unless the stock market booms and my investments pay out sooner. Still, even if I had that kind of cash, I have so many other leisure interests beyond trains, I just don't see myself putting that much into a layout. Imagine having something that big. Would you ever finish it? Do you need to invite three people over just to run a train?To me the ideal, being a lone-wolf like I am, would be maybe no bigger that 12x20 in N scale. That's big for N, but not overwhelming. I'm fussy about my scenery, so I'd probably scenic the thing myself, and much bigger than that would probably be too much. Even then, it'd be mostly around-the-walls so would not eat a huge amount of that space.Big layouts are great, but I'd love to see some more of the small to medium-sized layouts that are more likely to be within the money, time, and space constraints of the rest of us. One of these days when things calm down I think I'll try to submit my layout to MR or GMR.
Has anyone else noticed that in the pages of MR, MRP, and GMR, there seem to be more and more of the insanely huge layouts that have either the 3000-square-foot custom basement or a whole structure designed just for the layout? These are the layouts that require a dozen crewmembers to run.
I'm in awe, of course, but if this is where the hobby is going I fear I won't be able to keep up! I just read through MRP 2007, and while there are some decent smaller projects, I also see track plans with things like "future site for elevator" and "the workshop and crew lounge are on the ground floor of the specially-designed layout building." Jeez!
Certainly on a GI's salary I don't expect that sort of financial freedom, unless the stock market booms and my investments pay out sooner. Still, even if I had that kind of cash, I have so many other leisure interests beyond trains, I just don't see myself putting that much into a layout. Imagine having something that big. Would you ever finish it? Do you need to invite three people over just to run a train?
To me the ideal, being a lone-wolf like I am, would be maybe no bigger that 12x20 in N scale. That's big for N, but not overwhelming. I'm fussy about my scenery, so I'd probably scenic the thing myself, and much bigger than that would probably be too much. Even then, it'd be mostly around-the-walls so would not eat a huge amount of that space.
Big layouts are great, but I'd love to see some more of the small to medium-sized layouts that are more likely to be within the money, time, and space constraints of the rest of us. One of these days when things calm down I think I'll try to submit my layout to MR or GMR.
I'd like to see more of ones like at this website http://carendt.us/
Insanely small layouts in all scales from Z to G/gauge 1. Some are point to point and some offer continuos operation.
underworld
It is true that the model railroad press features layouts larger than any of us are likely to build or own. Always have, too. You'd like to comfort yourself with the thought that "well I prefer quality over quantity" but the problem is, most of them are also much higher quality than we are likely to build or own. We are doubly cursed! Darn that George Selios!
I guess it is the same general phenomenon -- ever notice that most of the people on television or in movies are prettier than we are too? Will the unfairness of it all never stop?
Fortunately you don't have to replicate an entire huge layout to learn from it.
Dave Nelson
As Cliff Powers stated more or less - what is a large layout?
And as others said, that they do not have the time or money to build a large layout. That is fine but getting down on those that do have the desire to do so is getting more typical every day.
I guess I would be in the class of those with a large layout. (25 x 75 basement filled with a layout)!
But what if I just had a basement that size and I began with a 4 x 8. Would I still be classed as a large layout owner?
Now what if I added a little onto the 4 x 8 making it a 10 x 20? Is that too big?
Now what happens if I added a little more to make the layout a 25 x 25. Do I have to quit?
Now suppose I just went and filled up the rest of the basement. Now am I going to be in trouble with the SMALL LAYOUT OWNERS ASSOCIATION because I used up all of my available space?
And this thing about being a maintenance headache, if the 4 x 8 was not one or the 10 x 20 was not one or even the 25 x 25 why would the 25 x 75 or larger be one?
If YOU can not build the 4 x 8 to be a ZERO maintenance layout then even adding a 4 foot extension is going to be a maintenance problem.
If the layout is designed properly from the beginning then no matter how big it gets and the STANDARDS are followed to the letter (as in no compromises - just this one time!) then a large layout will be no more of a problem that than a small one.
I had ask this question, on the Forums, a few weeks back
- (just what were the specific maintenance problems that owners had with their layouts) -
and the only thing they could really come up with was simple track and turnout maintenance which if they had installed the turnouts properly (and which some had admitted to not doing) then they would have not had that maintenance problem to begin with (STANDARDS people STANDARDS)!
And as for being able to afford the super size layouts, remember the old song - ONE piece at a time.
Also having the time to build such a monster - What are your priorities - the trains or 4 wheeling - boating - fishing - hunting - etc. It is just that to some, that building a large layout be it a 4x8 - 10 x 20 or a 25 x 75 is what they decide to do. Crying about others because they decide they want to build a layout is not their problem it is YOUR problem, make some changes!
The last item - Finishing the layout - I get little parts of the layout running as soon as possible. Just switching one town you can see potential problems that can be changed easily. Building the complete layout in sequence (all of the benchwork - then track - then wiring - then ballasting - then scenery and then ONLY operating the layout) is a sure way to find out TOO late that your design might not have been completely right.
And if I die before I get the layout done - OH Well! I had fun right up to the end
Every chance I get to visit a large layout, I do. But No one has ever told me what the dimensions of a large layout are! So I always visit any layout I can as I always get an idea or two from the layout as no two owners have ever built the same size layout the same way
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Large layouts are great... Not saying they're not. I'd love to see your layout if I ever found myself up your way.
True, "large" is kind of a wishy-washy term. If I had a 25x75 foot space I might be tempted to fill it with layout, though maybe 70% would be just a narrow shelf to put distance between scenes. That could be a lot of maintenance, but I have two sons that could help.
What I'm amazed at is the seperate out-buildings or the excavations under the garage to expand layout space. That takes some serious capital. Now, if I had the cash, and all of my other obligations were taken care of (kids' college, etc.) I might consider. But then, I'd pobably spend a chunk of that change on an airplane (I'm also a private pilot) or something else.
In the meantime, I'm always on the lookout for some medium-sized plans that would be more within my anticipated future space and finances. There was an Ian Rice 5x7 N scale laout in MRP 2007 that looked nice... could turn that one into a Pennsy branchline.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Bob H, I don't think anyone here begrudges someone else of having a huge layout, more money, or more time to devote to the hobby. Envy is definitely not the driving force behind this thread. The simple point repeatedly being made is that such basement-filling empires, ones that have actually reached some degree of completion, so typically seen in the magazines, are representative of only a very small fraction of one percent of the total layouts out there. They do not represent the norm nor anything that most of us can even ever aspire to.
Likewise those very large layouts are rarely even the work of a single individual. Most have been created in someone's home through a club-like affiliation of several or perhaps many friends and participants. Because of that, the average hobbyist has great difficulty relating to aspects of the scenery, construction, or design. Since they have been done on such a grand scale, most of the ideas they do present are not really transferable to ordinary layouts. This is what gives rise to the complaint by hands-on modelers (of course, it's not the armchair element's view) of overly large layouts being far too dominant in the hobby press.
As to layout size...if you want a logical, simple, definition of size, as it pertains to layouts in the minds of most hobbyists you'll find on this forum, then "small" would have to be 4x8 (32 sq ft) and under. Medium would be on the order of one which fills an average-sized spare bedroom (say ~100-150 sq ft) and large would certainly be anything over 200 sq ft and especially if it dominates an entire average basement. Something on the grand scale of yours, approaching 2,000 sq ft, is honestly on the order of the square footage of many entire homes in my area and must be representative of less than 0.01 of one percent of the individually owned layouts in America!
CNJ831
Like Ironrooster (Paul) I think they have a pretty good selection of layouts of various sizes. As someone that always wanted something big and finally being able to do it, I appreciate seeing the large ones in addition to the smaller ones.
Keep in mind almost all of the material they use is submitted by others. So what is really needed is for more small layout owners to submit articles on their layouts. I've seen some really beautiful smaller layouts that the magazines would kill to have an article on.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
Dave V - I've read your posts (most well worded), observed your modelling (nice eye for detail/unique modules), and enjoy your photos (good light and composition). Sir, submit something to Model Railroader... see what happens.
Come on guys! We all know... size... doesn't... matter....
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
would a 20' X 20' be considered large? That's what I plan to have in my future house ( when i'm like 25)....For me, bigger isn't always better...For me at least.... I tend to change things on the layout just about every time I work on it.....I tear up track, put it somewhere else, and so on. Now imagine if I had a superlayout filling my basement- The thing would never be finished, would resemble various parts of the "big dig", and I'd never be satisfied with it completely, I would tear apart, rebuild.....tear apart, rebuild......
Dave
fifedog wrote: Dave V - I've read your posts (most well worded), observed your modelling (nice eye for detail/unique modules), and enjoy your photos (good light and composition). Sir, submit something to Model Railroader... see what happens.
Thanks! I'm considering doing that this year. I need to work on those photographs, though.
maandg wrote:You may now resume the vilification of the wealthy.
They're rich. I don't see any reason to feel sympathy for them.
Dave Vollmer wrote: fifedog wrote: Dave V - I've read your posts (most well worded), observed your modelling (nice eye for detail/unique modules), and enjoy your photos (good light and composition). Sir, submit something to Model Railroader... see what happens.Thanks! I'm considering doing that this year. I need to work on those photographs, though.
Dave,
Just do it! At least to the Trackside Photos. I've heard that for feature articles the lead time can be over 1 year! So don't delay!
tatans wrote:It sounds like you are falling into the trap of many model railroaders, that being watching other MR's spending money like oil typhoons because they do have plenty of money(but will tell you they don't) This hobby attracts people with vast amounts of money who buy every new product on the market and buy multipiles of them, every one to their own taste, BUT, this does not mean this is the norm. Don't worry about these guys, build your own, your own way and make it fit your budget(remember, those other guys have no idea what 'budget" means) The people with the insanely huge layouts live in a completely different galaxie than you and I and should have no bearing on your lifestyle, and it's not jealousy.
Way I see it, I have to loathe someone, so it might as well be the rich. They're used to it, and can always buy something to console themselves. Hating the poor just leaves you icky all over, like bathing in molasses.
Agamemnon wrote: tatans wrote:It sounds like you are falling into the trap of many model railroaders, that being watching other MR's spending money like oil typhoons because they do have plenty of money(but will tell you they don't) This hobby attracts people with vast amounts of money who buy every new product on the market and buy multipiles of them, every one to their own taste, BUT, this does not mean this is the norm. Don't worry about these guys, build your own, your own way and make it fit your budget(remember, those other guys have no idea what 'budget" means) The people with the insanely huge layouts live in a completely different galaxie than you and I and should have no bearing on your lifestyle, and it's not jealousy.Way I see it, I have to loathe someone, so it might as well be the rich. They're used to it, and can always buy something to console themselves. Hating the poor just leaves you icky all over, like bathing in molasses.
It's not really a question of "hating" anyone. It's more a question of which kind of behaviour are you going to reward - success or failure? Is it better for society for an individual to strive to be rich, or is is better for them to accept being poor?
For me, its a no brainer.
It's not really a question of "hating" anyone. It's more a question of which kind of behaviour are you going to reward - success or failure? Is it better for society for an individual to strive to be rich, or is is better for them to accept being poor? For me, its a no brainer. -George
Whoa! I believe that anyone can accomplish what they can conceive, but I'm not sure how your response fits into the Model Railroader content agenda, if they have one. (I'm still convinced that the number of articles on larger layouts is based upon wealth of submissions of larger layouts and a dearth of submissions of smaller layouts, rather than agenda--hence the campaigns for small layout design contests, etc.)
At any rate, could you clarify.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
On the subject of having help building my LARGE (by general description) layout, Yes I had the help of my two boys. They helped lay the track but I was the one that built the benchwork and did most all of the wiring.
Now as for the rest (and this layout was started in 2001) the scenery is slowly (and I mean slowly) being built as well as the structures. Why, as I am now doing all of the rest of the layout myself!
Yep! I am pretty much spending all of my time working on the layout. But then I am about ready to retire. The boys are gone now and soon the house will be paid off.
So I can afford to put some money into the layout. But I have been into modeling for over 40 years. So I have collected a LOT of equipment (a little at a time) and NO I am not rich by any means. I work for a Modular Home Mfg and they don't really want to give you a lot of money!
But the one thing is that when the winter season comes around you don't work as much (Who is going to buy a Mod in the middle of winter?) So I have a number of days that I can live in the basement and can get a lot done. This is making good use of your time. When I retire, I have been told, I will not have as much free time as I did when I worked and I am inclined to believe this!
But I figured that I should get the expensive stuff out of the way before I retired so I finished off the basement (drywall - drop ceiling - lights), and purchased all of the track, turnouts and structure kits over the past 5 years (3000 ft and 400 turnouts). So when I have the days off I can just work on the layout. That is how it is done. Could I have done this a few years ago, NOPE!
But now that I don't have to feed a lot of kids and go to school functions, it is amazing how much extra money is available. Also belonging to a club gets me extra help if I need it but what it really does is supply me with enough operators to run my home layout close to what I had envisioned.
And as far as making changes to the layout, I do but at a much more refined pace. And the one neat thing about having a LARGE layout is if you get tired working in one spot you can just move to the other end of the room and work on something completely different. Can't really get tired of having to the same thing continuously when you just move to a different area and do something different. But sometimes this can be a disadvantage as you may not really finish up anything completely.
SpaceMouse wrote:It's not really a question of "hating" anyone. It's more a question of which kind of behaviour are you going to reward - success or failure? Is it better for society for an individual to strive to be rich, or is is better for them to accept being poor? For me, its a no brainer. -GeorgeWhoa! I believe that anyone can accomplish what they can conceive, but I'm not sure how your response fits into the Model Railroader content agenda, if they have one. (I'm still convinced that the number of articles on larger layouts is based upon wealth of submissions of larger layouts and a dearth of submissions of smaller layouts, rather than agenda--hence the campaigns for small layout design contests, etc.)At any rate, could you clarify.
Chip,
I was purely responding to Agemenon's Class Envy drivel (that's why I quoted his message).
All of that aside, it is not a good idea to equate layout size with the "wealth" of the owner. John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid might be considered a "large" layout, but when asked about the cost of his layout he answered it cost about the same as a "pack of cigarettes" a day. And while comfortable, I don't think anyone would have called John Allen "wealthy".
My own layout is on the large side of "medium" (about 12 x 30) and yet I know I am not "wealthy" - ask my wife!
Yeah, some layouts are insanely large, but, gosh, I love looking at them. Would I like to see more "small" layouts, maybe, but I think one of the things that makes MR the great magazine that it is is that they resist taking editorial directive from me!
Sorry Guys, but nothing is insanely too large for a model railroad. It is not a one size fits all activity. One uses the available space with the available resources. If you are not rich enough to build a huge layout, who cares. I'm not either, but that doesn't mean I don't learn from viewing them. I didn't puke at the railroad's exhibit at the 1939 NY World's Fair. It inspired me. I didn't throw up all over the place at the Chicago Museum of Science or Trainz thing in New Jersey. But I learned from all of them.
Because I started with Lionel 0-72 with an M-1000 on the attic floor, a 4 x 8 layout is absurd to me. It couldn't even be done with 36" radius O Gauge track. Even for HO, it is similar to trying to design a family sedan of that dimensions. It can't be done. Almost every one of the 4 x 8 layout designs I have seen are essentially expanded Christmas tree layouts with trains running around in circles. Sure there are a few sidings, but essentially a very boring concept. Why 4 x 8? Because a sheet of foam or plywood is that size? How ridiculous can we get?
Using dimensional lumber for the bench work, one can build a 5 x 10 or 6 x 12 layout if there is room for it, and at the same cost. One might achieve at least a 24 inch minimum radius and decent operation as a result. In my opinion, nothing will destroy continued participation in this hobby quicker than a boring layout. Sure, small layouts are possible, and even sensible if space is at a premium. An 18 inch x 48 inch industrial switching layout, for instance. To put it bluntly, I think that articles like "Build the 4x8 Podunk Central in a week" are a disservice to potential participants in this great hobby and a travesty. It makes more sense to have HD saw it in half length wise and build a 2 x 16 switching layout for the same price.
Agamemnon wrote: maandg wrote:You may now resume the vilification of the wealthy. They're rich. I don't see any reason to feel sympathy for them.
The difference between the rich and those who would be rich is that the rich no longer labour under the illusion that money can solve all of life's problems...including the envy and churlish hate of the latter.
"Money can't make you happy, and happy can't make you money."
-Groucho Marx
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Like some others, I sometimes get frustrated reading about those super-huge layouts, mainly because starting something one knows could never be finished is frustrating. I am, however, often inspired by these layouts, not because of their size, the grandure of the layout plan, or the panoramic views of portions of the layouts, but by the photographs of individual scenes. More often than not, these scenes would be just as at home on a 4' x 8' as on a 24' x 48' layout. The object is the quality of the modelling; the size of the layout is a moot issue.
It seems that the idea is that there are those who want to see at least a few more articles on small to medium size layouts that are within their time, space and financial constraints. I can't disagree with that. But I think we also have to ask the question, "Why?" Are you actually going model or copy that small model railroad? I might be speaking out of turn, but I don't think that would be such a great idea, someone has already done it. Use your imagination and build your own model railroad. Are you looking for track plans? Buy one of the trackplan magazines or get someone to formulate a trackplan for you. Are you looking for inspiration? Well, everyone including George Sellios, Allen McCelland, Howard Zane, Cliff Powers, etc. is looking for that and they find it in three places; the prototype (the very best source), the photos of individual scenes on a model railroad or their imagination. Where the first and last reasons are concerned, size dosen't matter. As for the second reason, you generally wouldn't know the size of the layout unless some one told you.
This is another one of those, "Everybody's right and nobody's wrong," threads so I guess like the song says, "It's your thing, do what you wanna do."
Seriously, Dave, I agree with many others here that you should submit to MRR pronto. If you want to see more instances of more moderate layouts in their pages, than why not yours? You're scenery and detail are excellent. One wouldn't know from your closeup photos that the layout is as compact as it is, anyway. Do you feel insecure about your work?
Interestingly enough, my LHS owner was telling me that N Scale is on the rise. In fact, he said that he's had three young couples come in in the past week who were starting N Scale layouts together. Perhaps you're at the forefront of a micro-trend.