What's stopping people from hijacking military trains?

[L Cowan]

Stop and think for a minute, even if you do hijack it and find a place to stop the train how do you get the darn stuff on the ground without a loading dock. You also need to have access to the end of a car to drive the stuff off. There isnt room to take it off the side unless its a tracked vehicle and if you do yhat you will probable lose the losd on adjacent cars. It would be easier on the black market.

[fwright]

Crandell

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  I have to agree that security through intimidation is not the most effective policy against terrorism.  When the goal of the terrorist is to cause a loss of confidence and faith in the targeted government, the last thing the government needs to do is feed that loss of confidence (something we forget all too often).

Fred Wright 

[selector]

Fred, I can't lay any claim to expertise in the field of security, other than the training I received when I spent 11 years in the tank corps.  But, if I were bent on securing an intersection that had a high security component, I would not stop oncoming traffic in sight of that intersection, and certainly not using intimidation...it sends the wrong message at the wrong place and at the wrong time.  What I would do is secure the intersection a mile back so that traffic would never know what was happening where it counted, and it would be a simple blockade.  The heavy hand would be hidden around the next bend as an interception force.

 Just a different approach.

 -Crandell

[loathar]

I was drawn down on 3 times when I lived in Columbus. Once was mentioned above. The next was when I walked out my back door to see why there were 10 cops in my back yard at 2:00 a.m. and the third time I came over a hill in the road to see cop cars blocking the road with a chopper overhead in front of some rich family's home. A cop walked in front of my car, aimed at my head and told me to get my hands up and don't move. They held me and a few other cars this way for a few minutes, then got a radio call, jumped in there cruisers and sped off. No explanation. Nothing on the news that night. The only thing I can think is it might have been a kidnapping attempt. The family that lived there owned a very up scale nation wide restaurant chain.

[fwright]

Selector

I'm all ears for your alternatives in prevention.  Since I began working in developing systems for anti-terrorism and force protection, my greatest fear is that I have assisted with development of the most expensive recording device ever for CNN use after the at least semi-successful attack.

I have a son who has served 2 tours in Iraq, and has PTS because of the situations he was repeatedly placed in (this is not a commentary about the Iraq war - these situations are happening everywhere; police also deal with it frequently.).

The ultimate goal of a terrorist is to deprive the civilian populace of any confidence in the targeted government's ability to protect them.  This is typically done by taking down public targets of cultural and political value with maximum human carnage.  A large economic cost is a side benefit, but does not appear to be a primary factor in target selection.  We have learned the hard way in the past 2 decades that certain death while conducting a successful terrorist action is not a deterrent to Islamic terrorists (which supports your point).

How do you deter or prevent an imminent attack by a terrorist who believes killing/harming more people adds to the success of a mission?  The accepted methodology is to kill the terrorist as early as possible.  The problem is that identification before the attack begins has proven quite difficult.  And even during the attack, the risk to innocents is usually high to unacceptably high.

Fred W

[Anonymous]

I have not read throughout this thread, but have only begun to read this page because its longevity piqued my curiosity.  So, with that caveat, and with my remarks based solely on the theme in the past several posts, I find this to be an interesting discussion.  I instruct in Ethics and Leadership for Canada's Royal Military College, and the notion of Canadian troops having a mandate to use a public highway to the exclusion of the public, even using the threat of armed force (the police with rifles and handguns pointed at oncoming traffic) is not particularly amusing...mostly since it suggests a teleological, or ends-based, approach to dealing with the human.   The premise is that the most number of humans will benefit if we threaten, and even have to take the lives of, a few.  Oddly, if human lives are what the philosophy is meant to suggest is so vastly important, then we can kill some of them for the good of others.   Huh?

I agree...with all the notions of shoot first and ask questions later, it's simply non-existant today, simply against all the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) of all Police and Military.  Pointing a loaded weapon towards un-armed civilians and om-coming traffic is simply ridiculous, it's just against all firearm safety rules, military or NOT!  At the range where I shoot, you would be kicked out the range if you as much as not pointing your weapon loaded or not down-range.  This range also trains Police officers and the first thing before they een let you touch a gun is to tell you NEVER EVER point a weapon at another person at the range and to follow the engagement rules on-duty.

[selector]

I have not read throughout this thread, but have only begun to read this page because its longevity piqued my curiosity.  So, with that caveat, and with my remarks based solely on the theme in the past several posts, I find this to be an interesting discussion.  I instruct in Ethics and Leadership for Canada's Royal Military College, and the notion of Canadian troops having a mandate to use a public highway to the exclusion of the public, even using the threat of armed force (the police with rifles and handguns pointed at oncoming traffic) is not particularly amusing...mostly since it suggests a teleological, or ends-based, approach to dealing with the human.   The premise is that the most number of humans will benefit if we threaten, and even have to take the lives of, a few.  Oddly, if human lives are what the philosophy is meant to suggest is so vastly important, then we can kill some of them for the good of others.   Huh?

[fwright]

Well those soldiers obviously have no soul. I mean, killing a father with 5 kids and a wife just because he was going to take a picture of an UNMARKED tarped load for his collection. There has to be better ways than death. 

Way off topic, but still relevant.

The situation you pose is as nasty as it gets.  And that is one of the biggest issues for military force in today's world.  As a military (or any security force like police) member, guess wrong and one of 2 things happen:

1) the kids and wife were there as decoys, and you get killed while trying to sort things out.  The bad guys succeed.

2) you shoot an innocent family and have to live it the rest of your life (which is why there is such a high rate of PTS).

Getting young adults raised in Western culture where life is considered valuable to actually pull the trigger before an uncertain situation deteriorates is not easy.  Do you believe that military pilots would actually shoot down a passenger jet based on only a radio order prior to 9/11?  Reality is some would and some wouldn't.  Military life was much easier when the bad guys didn't try to hide among innocent populations.

As for the unmarked tarp, there are 2 basic approaches to security.  One is a hardened target with layers of dedicated and visible defense, with deterrence being the primary objective.  The second is to hide the real target as something very ordinary with no visible security or defense beyond normal.  Creating deception or uncertainty for the enemy is the objective.  Sometimes, a combination of the 2 is used.

Fred W

[loathar]

I was driving on the highway in Columbus Oh. one day. Came up over a hill to my exit and there was about 30 state trooper cars that had the highway blocked and their guns drawn pointed towards the oncoming traffic. Just then, a military convoy pulled onto the highway with about 20 hummers full of armed MP's guarding a flatbed semi with a huge tarped load on it. (looked like a flying saucer under the tarp) These guys meant business! I'm quite sure they would have shot first and asked questions later. It was pretty scary to see.

[coborn35]

Sensative shipments such a nukes are a closely guarded secrect as to route and time of shipment.  They are shipped in unmarked cars and are VERY HEAVILY GUARDED.  You would not get within 50 feet of one without getting shot.  The guards on those shipments have "shoot to kill orders" and WILL shoot you dead without warning if you get too close.

Well those soldiers obviously have no soul. I mean, killing a father with 5 kids and a wife just because he was going to take a picture of an UNMARKED tarped load for his collection. There has to be better ways than death. 

[loathar]

Why bother with it when you can just sell some of your daddy's oil, take the cash and go to Russia and buy a nuke. More bang for the buck.

[tatans]

One deterrent may be those 3 cabooses in the middle and end of the trains filled with stubby British troops with stubby little automatic weapons who leap off the train before it stops and get irate at anyone approaching the train even to take photos, they take their jobs very seriously, I guess they still think we are  part of the colonies on their annual training trips to Suffield, Alberta. By the way what would a hi-jacker do with 100 flatcars loaded with light tanks and other heavy equipment?????

[MidlandPacific]

Oh, good grief - without a railhead ramp to unload it, it's just so much dead iron, anyway.  The vehicles are stripped of anything removable before they're loaded, and the heavy weapons are missing breechblocks, and given that it takes most of the skilled and experienced men and NCOs in a well-trained unit to get it all onto a train in the first place, it seems pretty unlikely that you could do anything with it other than run it into - um, wherever the CTC dispatcher directs you to.

So not such a big worry, I think. 

Well, apart from able to rent a heavy lift crane from some rental place, it wouldn't be hard to steal one.  From what I see, all the missile launchers are still on the Hummers, they just covered it with a OD tarp!  Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the control box is located at the switch junction just like the signal box?  If it's electronics, I am sure some geek would be able to override it!  LOL

What you're seeing is an empty tube - you strip anything that's removable off before you load the vehicle.  For artillery pieces (for example), you would not have the sights mounted, and you would remove the breechblock - so even if someone got it, they would have a steel tube on wheels.  All that stuff is secured, and usually carried separately, precisely so something like that can't happen.  And so the $#*&! in the next unit can't steal your stuff.  Electronics - radios, etc - are all pulled out and shipped separately.  The vehicle gas tanks are not completely drained, but they're usually about 1/4 full at most, to minimize the mess if they leak. 

But the really difficult thing is getting the damn things on and off the train.  It takes a lot of work to do a rail load, and the guys doing it have usually done quite a few, and it's still a slow, uwieldy process.  There are lots of easier ways to steal something than hijacking a train, believe me.

[snagletooth]

 I guess what I mean to be saying, above all the detail ( and this will probably get this thread shut down, and I'm terribly sorry) is that we are all fighting over GOD, yate we all agree on HIM. It's each religions "Saviore" we seem to diagree on. Even the Druids and pagans believe in a singular GOD, Just their Sub gods are christian angels Jewish whatever( I don't know the term, but their is the Quballa that is similar to early Christian  text. and Muslim, and Druid, and Norman, And Greek/Roman, and ect. a heriachy,  good Vs. evil., Ect. I guess I'm egnostic more than Methodist. Anyway, We are fighting over the Savior, not GOD. If the Muslims want peace, they'll pull out of Jerusilm. It holds no real religious signifigance to them. the jews cannot rebuild the Temple(They only beleive in the  one) until they can rebuild the one  which the muslim templr in jerusulim is on. it was typical in those days to build your temple on your defeated enemies sacred sites, but it's time to give it up.  Like I said, as a mothodist/agnostisy, it's beyond me. But to understand is to recieve peace.The Jews must have their temple in Jerusilum.  In their eyes, period. It holds littlem religuios signifance to the muslims. Give it up. I'm sorry if this gets shut down.

[Anonymous]

  O.K., I'll give you that. I remember that one. the gov. should have done more on that. Shoulbd have blown him apart. But it was unloaded. That's probably ( In my opinion, and incorrectley) why they didn't do more to stop him and left it up to the county. We are talking about "hijacking" a whole train, not "stealing" one piece of equiptment. there is a difference. Does anyone think that , excuse me i've forgetten their names right now, they could "hijack" a GP38-2 in Mo. or Ark. and run it to Chicago without someone saying something? And that's without gov. cargo.!! I've seen Spent nuclear rods come through Aurora, and yes it was one cop clearing the platforms, but I,ve seen the military escort on the train (from afar)  and it was not people easily beaten. And it would be quickly notified if some one tried. You would not get very far

  I guess what everyone is missing is the chicken attitude of most teroist. they don't attack hard (I.E. strong military targets), but civilian targets, to get the government to concede because the public is now afraid, which is against Europeane and North American Rules Of War. They have no rules of war. War is a way of life, to be passed on. They still remember the crusades. The crusades was a reaction to an invasion by the Mores and Islamics of southern Euope and, most importanly of Jerusalim( which I believe belongs to the Jews).

  I don't remeber what US general said it, but. The key to victorie is understanding your enemies sight of the war. It doesn't matter how we see the world, it's understanding how they see things  (wether right or wrong)  that will start disscussions to true peace.

Thank you for agreeing and I also agree with what you said about terrorists...

Terrorists are cowards but what they are trying to do is exactly what they want; to strike at the heart of a nation by inflict fear amonst its people and in turn destroy our way of life.  That's why we should take even more caution on everything, NOT just ban anything like guns and sale of knives (Australia going this path, for example, your kid cannot buy a Exacto for school project unless you also go and buy it for him or her) etc. (BTW, business and first class still serving meals with metal knives) or even ridicule cetain ethnic community within the society.  Without this getting into a political debate, I think excercise extreme caution is the way to go and not think 'No way!' or have the 'That's imposible' attitude because I hope everyone all can learn the lessons in history.

I also just want to say that I actually classify cowards as terrorists as well, you know the ones who calls up and hangs up or don't say anything?  You got something to say then say it!  But I also don't condone mucho slug-it-out with anything either, because for what???  It's just what it is, a difference in opinion and wars had started with that.  We got enough crap to worry about in today's scoiety with your own life like paying the credit cars bills with trains etc. LOL

So, take every step carefully in life, take note of things around you, think before you say or act and try to resolve any indiferences with a peaceful solution and a SMILE and let's hope we all live long and prosper and may we all have fun with our trains!  :-)

[snagletooth]

  O.K., I'll give you that. I remember that one. the gov. should have done more on that. Shoulbd have blown him apart. But it was unloaded. That's probably ( In my opinion, and incorrectley) why they didn't do more to stop him and left it up to the county. We are talking about "hijacking" a whole train, not "stealing" one piece of equiptment. there is a difference. Does anyone think that , excuse me i've forgetten their names right now, they could "hijack" a GP38-2 in Mo. or Ark. and run it to Chicago without someone saying something? And that's without gov. cargo.!! I've seen Spent nuclear rods come through Aurora, and yes it was one cop clearing the platforms, but I,ve seen the military escort on the train (from afar)  and it was not people easily beaten. And it would be quickly notified if some one tried. You would not get very far

  I guess what everyone is missing is the chicken attitude of most teroist. they don't attack hard (I.E. strong military targets), but civilian targets, to get the government to concede because the public is now afraid, which is against Europeane and North American Rules Of War. They have no rules of war. War is a way of life, to be passed on. They still remember the crusades. The crusades was a reaction to an invasion by the Mores and Islamics of southern Euope and, most importanly of Jerusalim( which I believe belongs to the Jews).

  I don't remeber what US general said it, but. The key to victorie is understanding your enemies sight of the war. It doesn't matter how we see the world, it's understanding how they see things  (wether right or wrong)  that will start disscussions to true peace. We are still Fifgting religuis wars, and, as a Methodist, this is wrong. The Christians have Rome and Bethlehem, the Muslims have Mecca and Irag, the Jews SHUOLD HAVE JERUSELEM! they cannot, in their belief, have contant with their lord until they rebuild the temple, the one temple, in jeruselem.

  End this endless religiuos warring and get the religuious leaders to meet together. It's getting old now
 

[Anonymous]

Iceman.

As I said before "Take me to Cuba"

Bah!

How can you hijack something that's on a fixed pathway with the route set by people who aren't even on the train?  A train is not like any other vehicle nor like an aircraft.  The train nor the crew decide where they are going.  So, tell me how you would hi-jack one?

Impossible.

Roger,

I can't exactly tell you how but I just see it and saw it as possible.  Believe it or not, people also said that learning to fly, then fly a commercial jet into a building narrower than the plane itself is impossible not to mention bring down TWO world's highest building is impossible.  Bruce Ismay who built Titanic said 'Titanic is unsinkable and God himself couldn't sink it.'  People at FAA also said jumnping from a plane flying at 300 knots is impossible but DB Cooper did it and got away with a lot of money while doing it.

If you really want to goto Cuba, I think I got enough frequent flyers points to go but just think about the above words for a sec.

[rogertra]

Iceman.

As I said before "Take me to Cuba"

Bah!

How can you hijack something that's on a fixed pathway with the route set by people who aren't even on the train?  A train is not like any other vehicle nor like an aircraft.  The train nor the crew decide where they are going.  So, tell me how you would hi-jack one?

Impossible.

[Anonymous]

 A crane heavy enough to lift an Abrams A-1? And load it on to what that wouldn't be seen? And with what, a credit card? I repeat, A TRAIN HAS NOT BEEN HIJACKED IN THE US SINCE THE CIVIL WAR!!!!! do what? take it where? Unload before the US Army realized "WHAT THE " Small arms i"m willing to give (Ask any inner city rail cop on Intermodal robberies), but A-1 Abrams, smart missell's, nuclear waste or weapons, extremely doubtful!! Ask the mafia when they "hijack" a trailer, they already know where to take it and they already have a customer. Ask the Irish Mob, same thing. Ask the military!! it's heavely guarded!!! it' would take an organized military to pul it off!! try to hide 20 tanks in your back yard.

All I am saying is if there is a will there is a way.  Isn't about 8 years ago in Atlanta Georgia, a guy took one of the Marine's M-60 Patton for ride?  ;-)  And the cops were powerless to stop and had to wait for the fuel to run out?  I really hate to think the level of corruption in this world but if you can steal a Ferrari with sophisticated alarms and securites and armed guards at dealerships/depot and smuggle it around the world then why not some plutonium or a granade launcher?  An Army ordance officer was arrested in Australia last week for selling 8 TOW type RPG to terrorist and since then, only one was recovered which means there are still 7 that's out there and the one that was recovered is only possible after the Federal Police spent $50,000 to buy it back.  Everyone has a price, it's just a matter of how much.

One more thing, there was no plane hijack after the infamous DB Cooper but that doesn't mean it not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

 TV? It's gotten as bad as then internet as far as "reliable information". I want what your

Well, I agree, otherwise there wouldn't be a job called 'PR Consultants' who gets paid $5000 a month per client just to get your face on TV or newspapers.  But the thing is, can you afford not take those things into consideration?  When you control the flow of information, you control the world.  Think about it, was used to be fought on muddy hills with bayonets but now you just get a bunch of 'Information Officers' with keyboards pushing buttons.

[snagletooth]

 A crane heavy enough to lift an Abrams A-1? And load it on to what that wouldn't be seen? And with what, a credit card? I repeat, A TRAIN HAS NOT BEEN HIJACKED IN THE US SINCE THE CIVIL WAR!!!!! do what? take it where? Unload before the US Army realized "WHAT THE " Small arms i"m willing to give (Ask any inner city rail cop on Intermodal robberies), but A-1 Abrams, smart missell's, nuclear waste or weapons, extremely doubtful!! Ask the mafia when they "hijack" a trailer, they already know where to take it and they already have a customer. Ask the Irish Mob, same thing. Ask the military!! it's heavely guarded!!! it' would take an organized military to pul it off!! try to hide 20 tanks in your back yard.

[Anonymous]

Well I am a terrorist, and thanks for giving me all these nice hints on how to kill you all!

You know, I seriously hope the FBI or the boys in Virgia is reading this thread because there are so many leads leading up to 9/11 and people just failed to act because they think like some of us in here;  'How the heck do you do that?!'  And when the first plane crashed, it's already too late.  And as I mentioned before, somethings unfortunately have to be learned from mistakes but it wouldn't hurt to listen and perhaps do some more reasearch and we all do our bit to prevent things from happening.  And you know something?  Some of the movies are subtle messages for the authorities and believe it or not, I have always believed some of he disaster movies are a subtle tool to gauge people's reactions and preparedness of the various Agencies.  That's why in those movies, you will find the Agencies involved in the end credit.  For all intetions and purposes, it would be a social experiment and if people believed what they see, then it means that it's possible, remember Die Hard 3 with the so-called 'ceramic' Glock 17 (they called it Glock 7 if I remembered correctly).  Shortly after the movie, colour density sensitive X-Rays were introduced in airports around the world.

[Anonymous]

Oh, good grief - without a railhead ramp to unload it, it's just so much dead iron, anyway.  The vehicles are stripped of anything removable before they're loaded, and the heavy weapons are missing breechblocks, and given that it takes most of the skilled and experienced men and NCOs in a well-trained unit to get it all onto a train in the first place, it seems pretty unlikely that you could do anything with it other than run it into - um, wherever the CTC dispatcher directs you to.

So not such a big worry, I think. 

Well, apart from able to rent a heavy lift crane from some rental place, it wouldn't be hard to steal one.  From what I see, all the missile launchers are still on the Hummers, they just covered it with a OD tarp!  Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the control box is located at the switch junction just like the signal box?  If it's electronics, I am sure some geek would be able to override it!  LOL

[snagletooth]

 TV? It's gotten as bad as then internet as far as "reliable information". I want what your

[Anonymous]

What  you probably didn't see in the video were the Cobra choppers flying escort...

Actually, they did show the Cobras flying in the distance but they said it's a Marine excercise because that's where the Marine base is...

[Anonymous]

Some people spend far too much time watching (Inaccurate and unbelievable) TV shows and Hollywood movies.

How the heck can you hijack a train?

Hijack, as in "Take me to Cuba!"

Bah, get a life, please.

People do have a life and this is a 'What If?' thread and if you took it too seriously, then you should get a life.

Like I said, 20 years ago, you would asking the samething; 'How the heck do you hijack a plane and crash it into the WTC?'.  Remember, a lot of things in life are learned from experience.  Before DB Cooper hijack a plane with a gun and then parachute out of a 707 at the back of the plane when he lowered the access ramp, the airports doesn't even have a X-Ray machine at the time not to mention after that, all planes since then scraped the rear access ramp design.  And remind you, DB Cooper is still not confirmed if he is the same person who later caught hijacking another plane using the same MO and there are still half a million missing.

May be you should watch some TV, you might learn a thing or two.

[snagletooth]

  I bet. And heavily guarded in every town. Seen nuclear waste trains  (3 of them) in the 80's. Only one local cop ahead of time to clear the platforms, but the train itself, WOW!!!!!!

[Medina1128]

What  you probably didn't see in the video were the Cobra choppers flying escort...

[caldreamer]

Sensative shipments such a nukes are a closely guarded secrect as to route and time of shipment.  They are shipped in unmarked cars and are VERY HEAVILY GUARDED.  You would not get within 50 feet of one without getting shot.  The guards on those shipments have "shoot to kill orders" and WILL shoot you dead without warning if you get too close.