Hello All,As some of you may know my OL and I are currently building an HO Scale layout in a spare bedroom of our house that we have been converting to a Train Room.
Our layout is set in 1953-54, in northern Arizona and is the old AT&SF main running through a small town .I've read through a lot of various material on operations and think I have come to understand it enough that I've been able to make a reasonable, decent plan... but after all this time I still have no idea as to how operations -work-. Let me try and explain what I mean by this, I understand that basically we are talking about layout picking up and moving cars and then taking them to yards and breaking them up, sorting them out and remaking them into trains to be sent here or there. What I don't get is how to actually apply that thinking to our plan. I have the tracks and know the industries and I think (and hope) I've put in proper trackage for run-arounds and other needed movements and set out my spurs in proper facing or trailing manner accept for one that has a run-around provided because of that. That all said what I lack is the understanding of just how it all fits together... meaning what sort of cars should go and come from where, what sorts of materials are typically moved to and from such industries and how often etc. I know it may seem strange that someone can get to this point in a layout and not have a clue as to these things but I started off in the hobby totally pig ignorant about trains, in fact I'm sure that some pigs that live near the tracks might actually know more than I do!
So I am wondering if anyone here might help give me some ideas... To help out along that vein I have provided our track plan below and a key to the tracks and industries.Honestly gang I don't even know if I'm making any sense here so if I'm not or haven't provided enough information or details please let me know and I promise to try and either provide the info needed or clarify my question ASAP.Looking forward to any input you all have to offer.Thanks in advance for your time and aid.
Peace.Coyote
I don't think I really understand your question, Grandpa C., but have you any historical sources for the AT&SF and what it did for revenue anywhere within 150 miles of you? Any archival information, photos, maybe they have an online historical society websit like the PRR and others have...and so on? I mean, you have, I hope, decided long since what model kits representing industries you intend to place here and there on your layout to be serviced by AT&SF. So, if they are reasonably realistic work for the Road, find pictures of trains in the area at that time and look closely at what they comprise. Boxcars or flatcars for dimensional lumber, coal, whereas sugar beets, corn, grain, combines and harvesters, autos, sheet metal, and a host of other things could go in gons, open hoppers, or flatcars as appropriate, and on and on.
I get the feeling I'm not doing any good, so I'll let you refine your question if you can.
-Crandell
I believe your layout might be too small for complicated computer systems (like RailOp). I would guess a simple train schedule with a card forwarding system for the switching would be appropirate for this layout. However in the limitations of this forum I am intimidated to attempt to explain. Nor can I find a good reference right now. I'll search a bit and see if I can find one.
For starters a simple schedule would include the SuperChief arriving from the west (staging yard) doing its stop(s) and then departing to the east. As this is the centerpiece of the layout that would be the starting place where all other trains are scheduled around it. Remember the El Capitan ran on the same schedule just a few minutes behind the SuperChief. In fact on this section of track, in this era, there would be seven to nine passenger trains both directions each day! That is pretty good traffic to start with.
But you know, the easiest way to understand operations is not a book but rather to watch or participate in operating sessions that use the various methods. Perhaps you could scout around and find some local layouts to observe the operation of. We hosted operating sessions on our layouts for a club from Dallas a couple years ago, so I know there is at least one operations group in the metroplex area. I would guess there are tens of them.
Staging to Piedmont Local
One local:
A Scrap yard. One Gondola. You can load this with scrap. This Gondola load could return to Staging and on to a foundry off layout to be converted to metal materials to the specifications required by your D industry "Bolt and Screw Factory" This gondola can return empty. If you loaded this on monday morning and it was picked up monday afternoon, it can arrive at the Foundry (Somewhere out there in the world), be unloaded tuesday am and returned to you on Wed. am.
B You can either bring in petroleum products that are consumed by your town like Gasoline, Diesal and perhaps Kerosene. Your industry says "Supplier" so I dont know what you would want to ship out. Im guessing Heavy Oil for Bunker Fuel in shipping or other similar consumers. You can put a 10,000 gallon single dome tank car for each type of liquid. Since I see room for two cars on that spur, I see a Single Dome inbound Diesal and perhaps a twin or triple dome with Leaded gas, kerosene and lube oil.
C Shipping warehouse. All warehouses need boxcars. Lots of them. They dont care what is on the boxcar itself. I see room for one, maybe two boxcars of 40' length. Maybe the town of Peidmont has a operation (Off railroad, not visible or modeled in your space) that is within a short trucking distance away. You would want hardware, general store stuff, plumbing fixtures, electrical stuff, small canned items like WD40 etc etc etc. Anything that you can think of that fits in a 40' boxcar with perhaps several men or a forklift availible to move it. You can load it inbound, or have it load out. If you wanted to get really fancy, have that warehouse support other towns and industries on your railroad with loads to and from. (Internals)
D Bolt and Screw Factory. I bet you might want to park a empty gon there and have it collect shavings. Boxcars can take away finished bolts and screws of all kinds to the outside world. They can deliver tools, replacement machinery parts or even entire machines can be loaded and sent out for overhaul. You would want loads of leather gloves, protection if any for your factory workers. Maybe a Tank car of lube or a covered hopper of additive that can be used to help finish the metals on the bolts and screws. Perhaps a boxcar of paint now and then. They definately would want boxes, carboys (Metal containers capable of being moved by forklift) and strap iron, clamps, staplers etc etc to control the assortment of bolts and screws being produced. Even empty cardboard boxes inbound to be filled with these little things to shipping out to all the hardware stores in your area or out into the world off layout. (Those bcardboard boxes might arrive from a printer ready to be filled with product)
So far the local's conductor has inbound to Peidmont:
One GondolaOne or Two tank cars (or more)One or two BoxcarsGon (Coils or bar stock of metals), Box, Flat (MAchinery, metals stock), covered hopper (Sand, additives etc) Any of these, all at once or just different loads at different times as needed by your factory.
Swapping out each of the 4 Peidmont industries with a empty or load of a similar car type according to what you have on your operations plan. I see a potential for at least 6 cars, maybe as many as 10.
Since your green track at Peidmont is about 7 feet long or so, you can support it with a complete local for peidmont while leaving the blue short run around free to get cars to and from the 4 industries.
Once you were finished at Peidmont, your local has a choice. Return to staging and ternimate there until the next ops session (Next workday) or you may choose to go to the next town (Garnet) and take care of those industries that can use loads generated by Peidmont. Once you gathered the Garnet outbounds you can either continue to staging via the wye or you can execute a runaround your train and put the caboose on the other end to return to staging via Peidmont in the afternoon.
Suddenly that little railroad local has a LOT of work to do doesnt it?
I would think that you can support one train to Peidmont, another for Garnet keep them seperate that way.
Your Garnet local will have it's own list of things needed by that industry.
Both locals can have a dispatcher to keep them apart.
Or perhaps you prefer one big train to handle Peidmont, then Garnet and return to staging but I dont know if you have sufficent capacity (Sidings etc) and it would be more fun to run two trains at once (Two operators) or one at a time in a specificed order for that day's work at each town.
That's an idea for Peidmont, I left Garnet alone because I did not want to get this post TOO big.
GC,
You might try perusing the yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarCards/
The purpose of this group is to provide a forum for model railroaders to discuss various operations and software applications as well as hand written car cards and waybills to route rolling stock to industries on and off their layouts. This concept can be applied to small, medium, or large model railroad layouts
Railroad Operations at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/
The purpose of this list is to provide a forum for railway modellers to discuss railroad operations as well as to model industry practices and operations. Operations is a series of events that are required to complete a task. We expect this list to show how these tasks should be set out to accomplish your goal. Discussions will include, among other things, how best to simulate the operations of prototype railways and how to operate trains by Train Orders or Centralized Traffic Control. Computers or car cards (a manual car card waybill system)will be discussed. Do you know how all the industries you model actually carry on day to day business? Where do typical raw materials come from to produce their products? Where do the finished products go? How are industry practices and railway operations linked? All of these questions are typical of what we plan to discuss on the Ops-Ind list.The list is open to all who have an interest in simulating the operations of railways and industries on their layouts.
Regards,
Tom
At some point you might like to take a look at my posts in this thread...
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1002692/ShowPost.aspx
I've whizzed through your question and glanced at your layout diagram.
Some ideas that I hope will help...
The reason for this explanation is to introduce the idea that RR ops break up in several ways. Apart from almost always involving several departments that have to work together (whether they want to or not) the operations break up into several areas. Just as we might look at ops from the point of view of any one department we might start to look at an "operation" from one of many starting points.
Do we start with
I'm going to try to start somewhere else altogether and try to look at things sort-of from "on-high".
Off the top of my head "operations" breaks down into a bunch of loco/car/train actions...
Hey! I seem to have finally hit the limit of words in a post...
So, as I was saying...
Then there are other things a DS has to account for other than moving trains...
More later...
EDIT
Some of the things that can be included under the heading of "Maintenance out on the Main Track"
I've gone a bit beyond maintenance there...
Something that a DS does npt want is a train crew going "Dead on the Clock"... that is reaching the maximum of their permitted working hours ... out on the Main track. A train "dead on the Clock is stuck where it is until a fresh crew can be got to it.
Dave-the-Train wrote:Hey! I seem to have finally hit the limit of words in a post...
selector wrote: I don't think I really understand your question, Grandpa C., but have you any historical sources for the AT&SF and what it did for revenue anywhere within 150 miles of you? Any archival information, photos, maybe they have an online historical society websit like the PRR and others have...and so on? I mean, you have, I hope, decided long since what model kits representing industries you intend to place here and there on your layout to be serviced by AT&SF. So, if they are reasonably realistic work for the Road, find pictures of trains in the area at that time and look closely at what they comprise. Boxcars or flatcars for dimensional lumber, coal, whereas sugar beets, corn, grain, combines and harvesters, autos, sheet metal, and a host of other things could go in gons, open hoppers, or flatcars as appropriate, and on and on.I get the feeling I'm not doing any good, so I'll let you refine your question if you can.-Crandell
Crandell;
Thanks for the reply some good advice in there I will take a good long look over on the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society web page and at Q-station.
Your answer was a fine one by the way.
Peace.
Coyote
Texas Zepher wrote: I believe your layout might be too small for complicated computer systems (like RailOp). I would guess a simple train schedule with a card forwarding system for the switching would be appropirate for this layout. However in the limitations of this forum I am intimidated to attempt to explain. Nor can I find a good reference right now. I'll search a bit and see if I can find one.
TZ;
Understandable I thank you for your reply though... I also got the impression that our layout would be a bit too small for something like RailOp. Do you know of any god Card Forwarding Systems you might point me too?
Texas Zepher wrote:For starters a simple schedule would include the SuperChief arriving from the west (staging yard) doing its stop(s) and then departing to the east. As this is the centerpiece of the layout that would be the starting place where all other trains are scheduled around it. Remember the El Capitan ran on the same schedule just a few minutes behind the SuperChief. In fact on this section of track, in this era, there would be seven to nine passenger trains both directions each day! That is pretty good traffic to start with.
Indeed it is and a great point thanks for bringing that up.. I really like the idea of having my operations limited to and having to work around the passenger trains as they pass through and obviously all having to give way to the Super Chief as she flies by.
Texas Zepher wrote:But you know, the easiest way to understand operations is not a book but rather to watch or participate in operating sessions that use the various methods. Perhaps you could scout around and find some local layouts to observe the operation of. We hosted operating sessions on our layouts for a club from Dallas a couple years ago, so I know there is at least one operations group in the metroplex area. I would guess there are tens of them.
Also good advice. I joined the NMRA last year I suppose I could try and look up some of the clubs in my area through them... I'm not very good at going out and meeting people, the OL jokes that if she didn't make me go out I'd be a shut in.. I tell "who needs to go out everything I need is right here, as long as you're home baby" you'd be amazed how long that line has continued to work. But you are quite right there is no replacement for practical hands on experience and who knows maybe some good friends can be made in the deal too.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Safety Valve wrote: Staging to Piedmont LocalOne local:A Scrap yard. One Gondola. You can load this with scrap. This Gondola load could return to Staging and on to a foundry off layout to be converted to metal materials to the specifications required by your D industry "Bolt and Screw Factory" This gondola can return empty. If you loaded this on monday morning and it was picked up monday afternoon, it can arrive at the Foundry (Somewhere out there in the world), be unloaded tuesday am and returned to you on Wed. am.<SNIP>That's an idea for Peidmont, I left Garnet alone because I did not want to get this post TOO big.
<SNIP>
snagletooth wrote: Here's some more ideas on you on Garnet. F. you' have outbound loads of cement in covered hoppers, being the fifties, single bay. G. you'd have outbound loads of crude oil in tank cars, and occasional inbound shipments of pumps and such machinery on flat cars. H.anything inbound or outbound in boxcars or flat cars I. cattle outbound in stock cars J. grain loads out in boxcars, maybe an ocassoinal inbound load of feed or ferelizer, also in boxcars. K.outbound loads of sand or gravel in open hoppers, or ballast for your "railroad" in ballast cars, which are pretty similar to open hoppers.
Safety Valve, Snagletooth,
Thank you both! This is exactly the sort of information and examples I was looking for... It clarifies things for me 100% I have printed these replies out they give me the sort of backbone examples that allow me to "get" it and build/change on this. This has told me a lot of what I wanted to know -thank you both so much again!
Thanks and Peace.
Tom;
Thank you greatly sir I will check them out!
Dave-the-Train wrote: At some point you might like to take a look at my posts in this thread...http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1002692/ShowPost.aspxI've whizzed through your question and glanced at your layout diagram.Some ideas that I hope will help...<SNIP>
Dave;
*whew* wow that is almost over my head Thank you for such a highly detailed answer I have printed it out and I am going to read over it a couple dozen times!
Thank you so much! This looks like some great info so far.
I am looking forward to the next part!!
1. I've added to the last post.
2. Don't worry about it being a lot of material... take it in a bit at a time. I'm trying to condense 45 years of rail experience and a HUGE subject into an extremely broad overview right off the top of my head. There could well be a better way of setting it out. The way I seem to be going is by diferent people's persectives.
I think that I've about done with the DS.
EDIT: No I hadn't! What i should point out is that, working with the small bit of nRR that you have... a town's worth... oart way along the line... you do and do not need to be aware of the DS. For you a DS is likely to be some way away and you may at best only have a Tower Operator (if there is a Tower) or a Telegraph Operator at a train Order Station to relay the DS's instructions to the train crews. (Should that be "trains' crews")?
The important thing from all this stuff is some sort of awareness that the RR is a huge thing spread over distance and that the bit you model is just a fraction of it. If you can get this context working in your head a whole bunch of things will become more clear and you will get a whole lot more out of your modelling. From a dioramma of a chunk of RR you can move up to a miniature word of trains that you represent a tiy scene in/of... (Sorry about the lousy grammar...).
There's a guy called a Yard Master (on the bigger roads). He does the same thing in a big yard as a DS does out on the running tracks/mains. Like the DS a Yardmaster has to be able to see out the back of his head and see into the future... at the same time.
Okay.
The Engineer's side of "operating". This should be easier to get your head round.
The Engineer's job is to get his train over the road safely as close to the scheduled times (if they are given) as possible.
That said there are a whole different bunch of trains - and part trains - an engineer can have to deal with.
Long thread on starting ops on a small layout.http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/889291/ShowPost.aspx
The key thing is to start simply and add complexity and challenge over time.
Some of the responses you are getting are mostly correct, but some of this is way too in-depth for a beginner, IMHO. And some just doesn't make sense and is needlessly complicated, at least in my personal view.
For car cards and waybills, one can certainly make their own, but an easy approach is to buy the starter set from Micro-Mark.
One of the best things you can do for yourself to get a good start is to get a good book -- and read it. Of those currently in print, I would recommend Tony Koester's Realistic Model Railroad Operation. (Kalmbach)
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
When it comes down to it you have a choice. You can find a system of planning and working movements of cars that has been worked out by model RR people to give them what they feel represents satisfactory movements or you can do a lot of reading/research and find out something of what goes on on the real RR in order to create an imitation of a small part of the very large world of RR operations.
In my view the one will shuffle a few cars between loading and unloading points. When looked at all this is is movements between points A, B and possibly C to J (?). There is little going on other than shuffling the pack. In the other you can aquire the knowledge to have some idea what might be going on in your little bit of the RR. Trains getting worked straight through. trains stopping to do specific things for specific reasons. Of just those two elements you can have an understaning of why a train might run on a particular track, or stop and wait, or why a train might wait before switching cars out rather than just get on and do it.
I don't know at what stage one moves to greater complexity. I don't think that I learnt to drive by pushing toy cars around on the floor as a kid. When I did learn to drive I had to more-or-less get in there with all the big traffic and some guidance.
If cuyama thinks that some of th posts just don't make sense he should have the confidence to say which ones and why.
It's your train. Enjoy yourself.