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Operations questions from the confused Coyote

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Operations questions from the confused Coyote
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:51 PM

Hello All,

As some of you may know my OL and I are currently building an HO Scale layout in a spare bedroom of our house that we have been converting to a Train Room.

Our layout is set in 1953-54, in northern Arizona and is the old AT&SF main running through a small town .

I've read through a lot of various material on operations and think I have come to understand it enough that I've been able to make a reasonable, decent plan... but after all this time I still have no idea as to how operations -work-. Let me try and explain what I mean by this, I understand that basically we are talking about layout picking up and moving cars and then taking them to yards and breaking them up, sorting them out and remaking them into trains to be sent here or there. What I don't get is how to actually apply that thinking to our plan.

I have the tracks and know the industries and I think (and hope) I've put in proper trackage for run-arounds and other needed movements and set out my spurs in proper facing or trailing manner accept for one that has a run-around provided because of that.

That all said what I lack is the understanding of just how it all fits together... meaning what sort of cars should go and come from where, what sorts of materials are typically moved to and from such industries and how often etc. I know it may seem strange that someone can get to this point in a layout and not have a clue as to these things but I started off in the hobby totally pig ignorant about trains, in fact I'm sure that some pigs that live near the tracks might actually know more than I do! Smile [:)]


So I am wondering if anyone here might help give me some ideas... To help out along that vein I have provided our track plan below and a key to the tracks and industries.

Honestly gang I don't even know if I'm making any sense here Blush [:I] so if I'm not or haven't provided enough information or details please let me know and I promise to try and either provide the info needed or clarify my question ASAP.

Looking forward to any input you all have to offer.

Thanks in advance for your time and aid.

Peace.

Coyote






 

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Posted by selector on Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:33 PM

I don't think I really understand your question, Grandpa C., but have you any historical sources for the AT&SF and what it did for revenue anywhere within 150 miles of you?  Any archival information, photos, maybe they have an online historical society websit like the PRR and others have...and so on?  I mean, you have, I hope, decided long since what model kits representing industries you intend to place here and there on your layout to be serviced by AT&SF.  So, if they are reasonably realistic work for the Road, find pictures of trains in the area at that time and look closely at what they comprise.  Boxcars or flatcars for dimensional lumber, coal, whereas sugar beets, corn, grain, combines and harvesters, autos, sheet metal, and a host of other things could go in gons, open hoppers, or flatcars as appropriate, and on and on.

I get the feeling I'm not doing any good, so I'll let you refine your question if you can.

-Crandell

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:43 PM

I believe your layout might be too small for complicated computer systems (like RailOp).  I would guess a simple train schedule with a card forwarding system for the switching would be appropirate for this layout.  However in the limitations of this forum I am intimidated to attempt to explain.  Nor can I find a good reference right now.  I'll search a bit and see if I can find one.

For starters a simple schedule would include the SuperChief arriving from the west (staging yard) doing its stop(s) and then departing to the east.  As this is the centerpiece of the layout that would be the starting place where all other trains are scheduled around it.  Remember the El Capitan ran on the same schedule just a few minutes behind the SuperChief.  In fact on this section of track, in this era, there would be seven to nine passenger trains both directions each day!  That is pretty good traffic to start with. 

But you know, the easiest way to understand operations is not a book but rather to watch or participate in operating sessions that use the various methods.  Perhaps you could scout around and find some local layouts to observe the operation of.  We hosted operating sessions on our layouts for a club from Dallas a couple years ago, so I know there is at least one operations group in the metroplex area.  I would guess there are tens of them.  

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:00 AM

Staging to Piedmont Local

One local:

A Scrap yard. One Gondola. You can load this with scrap. This Gondola load could return to Staging and on to a foundry off layout to be converted to metal materials to the specifications required by your D industry "Bolt and Screw Factory" This gondola can return empty. If you loaded this on monday morning and it was picked up monday afternoon, it can arrive at the Foundry (Somewhere out there in the world), be unloaded tuesday am and returned to you on Wed. am.

B You can either bring in petroleum products that are consumed by your town like Gasoline, Diesal and perhaps Kerosene. Your industry says "Supplier" so I dont know what you would want to ship out. Im guessing Heavy Oil for Bunker Fuel in shipping or other similar consumers. You can put a 10,000 gallon single dome tank car for each type of liquid. Since I see room for two cars on that spur, I see a Single Dome inbound Diesal and perhaps a twin or triple dome with Leaded gas, kerosene and lube oil.

C Shipping warehouse. All warehouses need boxcars. Lots of them. They dont care what is on the boxcar itself. I see room for one, maybe two boxcars of 40' length. Maybe the town of Peidmont has a operation (Off railroad, not visible or modeled in your space) that is within a short trucking distance away. You would want hardware, general store stuff, plumbing fixtures, electrical stuff, small canned items like WD40 etc etc etc. Anything that you can think of that fits in a 40' boxcar with perhaps several men or a forklift availible to move it. You can load it inbound, or have it load out. If you wanted to get really fancy, have that warehouse support other towns and industries on your railroad with loads to and from. (Internals)

D Bolt and Screw Factory. I bet you might want to park a empty gon there and have it collect shavings. Boxcars can take away finished bolts and screws of all kinds to the outside world. They can deliver tools, replacement machinery parts or even entire machines can be loaded and sent out for overhaul. You would want loads of leather gloves, protection if any for your factory workers. Maybe a Tank car of lube or a covered hopper of additive that can be used to help finish the metals on the bolts and screws. Perhaps a boxcar of paint now and then. They definately would want boxes, carboys (Metal containers capable of being moved by forklift) and strap iron, clamps, staplers etc etc to control the assortment of bolts and screws being produced. Even empty cardboard boxes inbound to be filled with these little things to shipping out to all the hardware stores in your area or out into the world off layout. (Those bcardboard boxes might arrive from a printer ready to be filled with product)

So far the local's conductor has inbound to Peidmont:

One Gondola
One or Two tank cars (or more)
One or two Boxcars
Gon (Coils or bar stock of metals), Box, Flat (MAchinery, metals stock), covered hopper (Sand, additives etc) Any of these, all at once or just different loads at different times as needed by your factory.

Swapping out each of the 4 Peidmont industries with a empty or load of a similar car type according to what you have on your operations plan. I see a potential for at least 6 cars, maybe as many as 10.

Since your green track at Peidmont is about 7 feet long or so, you can support it with a complete local for peidmont while leaving the blue short run around free to get cars to and from the 4 industries.

Once you were finished at Peidmont, your local has a choice. Return to staging and ternimate there until the next ops session (Next workday) or you may choose to go to the next town (Garnet) and take care of those industries that can use loads generated by Peidmont. Once you gathered the Garnet outbounds you can either continue to staging via the wye or you can execute a runaround your train and put the caboose on the other end to return to staging via Peidmont in the afternoon.

Suddenly that little railroad local has a LOT of work to do doesnt it?

I would think that you can support one train to Peidmont, another for Garnet keep them seperate that way.

Your Garnet local will have it's own list of things needed by that industry.

Both locals can have a dispatcher to keep them apart.

Or perhaps you prefer one big train to handle Peidmont, then Garnet and return to staging but I dont know if you have sufficent capacity (Sidings etc) and it would be more fun to run two trains at once (Two operators) or one at a time in a specificed order for that day's work at each town.

That's an idea for Peidmont, I left Garnet alone because I did not want to get this post TOO big.

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Posted by snagletooth on Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:54 AM
 
  Here's some more ideas on you on Garnet.
F. you' have outbound loads of cement in covered hoppers, being the fifties, single bay.
G. you'd have outbound loads of crude oil in tank cars, and occasional inbound shipments of pumps and such machinery on flat cars.
H.anything inbound or outbound in boxcars or flat cars
I. cattle outbound in stock cars
J. grain loads out in boxcars, maybe an ocassoinal inbound load of feed or ferelizer, also in boxcars.
K.outbound loads of sand or gravel in open hoppers, or ballast for your "railroad" in ballast cars, which are pretty similar to open hoppers.
 
Snagletooth
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Posted by Tom Bryant_MR on Sunday, January 14, 2007 8:06 AM

GC,

You might try perusing the yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarCards/

The purpose of this group is to provide a forum for model railroaders to discuss various operations and software applications as well as hand written
car cards and waybills to route rolling stock to industries on and off their layouts. This concept can be applied to small, medium, or large model
railroad layouts
 

Railroad Operations at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/

The purpose of this list is to provide a forum for railway modellers to discuss railroad operations as well as to model industry practices and operations. Operations is a series of events that are required to complete a task. We expect this list to show how these tasks should be set out to accomplish your goal. Discussions will include, among other things, how best to simulate the operations of prototype railways and how to operate trains by Train Orders or Centralized Traffic Control. Computers or car cards (a manual car card waybill system)will be discussed.

Do you know how all the industries you model actually carry on day to day business? Where do typical raw materials come from to produce their products? Where do the finished products go? How are industry practices and railway operations linked? All of these questions are typical of what we plan to discuss on the Ops-Ind list.

The list is open to all who have an interest in simulating the operations of railways and industries on their layouts.

Regards,

 

Tom

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Posted by Dave-the-Train on Sunday, January 14, 2007 8:49 AM

At some point you might like to take a look at my posts in this thread...

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1002692/ShowPost.aspx

I've whizzed through your question and glanced at your layout diagram.

Some ideas that I hope will help...

  • On the real railways (and I assume in very similar form on the real RR) operations are the role of the Operating Department/Operations Department or (if we want to be sickeningly modern)  "Production Department" Dead [xx(]
  • HOWEVER... Locos are usually almost entirely the province of the Loco Dept, the Track is the province of the MoW, Signals belong to the Signals and Telegraph Dept (may have a different name over there), BUT the operation of the signals by signalmen comes within the Ops Dept... as do train crews except Drivers/Engineers - and other footplate crew.
  • You will also probably find a Commercial department which is likely to include all revenue collection, possibly advertising/marketing and possibly on train staff other than Loco crew.  There may also be Property, Civil Engineering and many other departments.  The real Sad [:(] department is Human Resources but I will refrain from saying any more Whistling [:-^]
  • Naturally in a short line set up all of these may be encompassed by half a dozen to 20 people.
  • So while there is an Ops department most of the time it can't do very much without working with several other departments.

The reason for this explanation is to introduce the idea that RR ops break up in several ways.  Apart from almost always involving several departments that have to work together (whether they want to or not) the operations break up into several areas.  Just as we might look at ops from the point of view of any one department we might start to look at an "operation" from one of many starting points.

Do we start with

  • the crew
  • the loco(s)
  • the car(s)
  • the schedule
  • the customer
  • ???

I'm going to try to start somewhere else altogether and try to look at things sort-of from "on-high".

Off the top of my head "operations" breaks down into a bunch of loco/car/train actions...

  • You don't get anywhere without starting out with either light loco or (if you have Multiple Units - self powered- ) empty stock workings.  Quite simply, if the Engineer doesn't bring the Motive Power you aren't going to go anywhere.  We should end up with a Light Engine movement if I remember and complete the circle.  At the end of the day(s) the loco has to be put away again.
  • Next come a whole bunch of things in a sort of heap.  They will have started out with someone going out selling the RR's carrying ability and/or someone coming in wanting to buy it... but, that said, what we are interested in is that someone has a load to be collected and delivered - usually at specific points.  That, in some sense, is the be-all-and-end-all of Ops.  Without loads that pay there is no RR.  unfortuantely some departments forget this... when more depts forget this than recall it RRs close... this happened. 
  • The end result of this heap is one of two things:- You either need an empty car to be spotted and filled or you have a full car that needs to be spotted and emptied. In between may be a journey of a few yards or a thousand miles.
  • So the loco has been prepped in a loco yard (I've skipped that bit as it's loco dept Sigh [sigh]).  It's going to be let out onto a running track/main by a combination of Dispatcher/towerman with directions to go and collect things from specific points.
  • Depending on era and location the locos first thing to collect would/will be a caboose.  (From here on I will leave a caboose or no caboose to be assumed as appropriate).  Sometimes the loco would pick up just a caboose and make a "caboose hop" to where the cars for the train were waiting.  Othertimes the loco would hook staright onto a train with a caboose on the back (or not).
  • We now have a train!  Shock [:O]
  • The train will have a scheduled pathway in the schedule and also a status.  Status is the order of importance the RR ascribes to that particular type of train and, specifically, that individual train.  The train will also have a specific identity.  This may be totally specific or specific within the day or the week.
  • Some trains are scheduled every day and get the same designation/identity each day.  Some are scheduled weekly and get the same each week.  Just for fun some are the same each day of the week but get a different designation each day of the week but that is the same each week. Mischief [:-,]
  • Then there are trains that are not in the regular schedule.  These are "Extras" and they get a status and an identity AND a place in the schedule in their own right.
  • Different RR categorize their trains by different names and in a variety of ways.  You can reckon that Senior Company Management and their guests get priority over all but one train type.  Then come the high payers/perishable loads - reefers and varnish (the oreder is deliberate - passngers moan fruit/veg rots).  Then you work your way down through the heap with bulk aggregates somewhere near the bottom - but not always...
  • THE TRAIN that EVERYTHING else gets out of the way and even backs up for is the wrecker going to a smash.  Here even a Royal train will get set aside for this working.  NOTHING gets in the way of the big hook in emergency.  You will never see the tracks clear so fast in any other circumstances.
  • A place in the schedule for both regular trains and extras may be specific to the half minute or very vague to the point of being "run when traffic allows".  The former will be something like a business special while the latter is likely to be a MoW train dropping off materials locally.
  • On a big Class 1 RR the schedules may be divided up both by route and divisions.  On a shortline they may be "go out on Tuesday and come back on Wednesday".  This is one of the reasons that "explaining ops" is so difficult... there is just so much of it.  BUT that is why I am trying to give an extremely broad over view.
  • The loco hop to the caboose and the caboose hop to the train (if that's the way it's done) may have their own slots and identities in the schedule or they may be put together in a way that identifies them as being part of a group of moves.  that is RR specific... probably era specific as well.  US practice often has the advantage of using the loco numbers as part of the train id... even if only for extras... and this can help you keep sight of connected moves.
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Posted by Dave-the-Train on Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:01 PM

Hey!  I seem to have finally hit the limit of words in a post...

So, as I was saying...

  • Wherever possible all other switching work will be done clear of the Main track(s).  Short of 100% this is never often enough for a DS.  He wants all non-through movements well out of the way.
  • You may also get transfer movements bvetween yards.  these can be handled by road locos, switchers (usually more slowly - so you want the distance to be short) or transfer locos.
  • Sometimes when a train terminates or switches direction it will do so via several steps using different tracks.  the number of moves will be kept to a minimum to get the job done.  that said propelling moves are kept to a greater minumum so, sometimes, you will put in a run-round move, even two, rather than have one long push.
  • Then there are other things a DS has to account for other than moving trains...

    • Standing trains!  Big Smile [:D]
    • Not as daft as it sounds...  These may include... Trains doing things... trains waiting for others to get out of their way.  The HORRIBLE one... failed trains and trains with problems...  (Doing things includes crew changes).
    • Maintenance.  This clearly starts with MoW who need to take the tracks from time to time.  The signals people need to do the same.  Sometimes, some quick maintenance gets done on the Main... where it can be done safely.  It isn't unusual for work on one main to have to be stopped while trains run by on an adjacent main, trains on an adjacent main to have to be stopped or both (usually in a sequence).
    • Then there's things like City Ordinances that may require trains to not run between specific times... usually at night.

    More later...

    EDIT

    Some of the things that can be included under the heading of "Maintenance out on the Main Track"

    • Steam days... coaling and watering locos on through trains - especially high priority trains like Passenger /varnish and reefers.
    • Diesel days... locos will sometimes be fueled from road tankers while standing on a main track... I've seen pics of both freight and passenegers being fueled this way.  I don't have a clue what the rules are or what decides when it is done.
    • Some passenger trains could have the diners replenished while still on the Main.
    • Changes in consist for accomodation and for routeing (dividing and bringing together) of passeneger trains.
    • Adding head end cars (mails) to passenger trains.

    I've gone a bit beyond maintenance there...

    Something that a DS does npt want is a train crew going "Dead on the Clock"... that is reaching the maximum of their permitted working hours ... out on the Main track.  A train "dead on the Clock is stuck where it is until a fresh crew can be got to it.

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    Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:11 PM
     Dave-the-Train wrote:
    Hey!  I seem to have finally hit the limit of words in a post...
    Another reason I didn't even attempt any sort of a full answer in the context of the forum Whistling [:-^]
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    Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:38 PM
     selector wrote:

    I don't think I really understand your question, Grandpa C., but have you any historical sources for the AT&SF and what it did for revenue anywhere within 150 miles of you?  Any archival information, photos, maybe they have an online historical society websit like the PRR and others have...and so on?  I mean, you have, I hope, decided long since what model kits representing industries you intend to place here and there on your layout to be serviced by AT&SF.  So, if they are reasonably realistic work for the Road, find pictures of trains in the area at that time and look closely at what they comprise.  Boxcars or flatcars for dimensional lumber, coal, whereas sugar beets, corn, grain, combines and harvesters, autos, sheet metal, and a host of other things could go in gons, open hoppers, or flatcars as appropriate, and on and on.

    I get the feeling I'm not doing any good, so I'll let you refine your question if you can.

    -Crandell

     

    Crandell;

    Thanks for the reply some good advice in there I will take a good long look over on the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society web page and at Q-station.

    Your answer was a fine one by the way. Smile [:)]

    Peace.

    Coyote

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    Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:55 PM
     Texas Zepher wrote:

    I believe your layout might be too small for complicated computer systems (like RailOp).  I would guess a simple train schedule with a card forwarding system for the switching would be appropirate for this layout.  However in the limitations of this forum I am intimidated to attempt to explain.  Nor can I find a good reference right now.  I'll search a bit and see if I can find one.

    TZ;

    Understandable I thank you for your reply though... I also got the impression that our layout would be a bit too small for something like RailOp. Do you know of any god Card Forwarding Systems you might point me too?

     Texas Zepher wrote:

    For starters a simple schedule would include the SuperChief arriving from the west (staging yard) doing its stop(s) and then departing to the east.  As this is the centerpiece of the layout that would be the starting place where all other trains are scheduled around it.  Remember the El Capitan ran on the same schedule just a few minutes behind the SuperChief.  In fact on this section of track, in this era, there would be seven to nine passenger trains both directions each day!  That is pretty good traffic to start with.

     

    Indeed it is and a great point thanks for bringing that up.. I really like the idea of having my operations limited to and having to work around the passenger trains as they pass through and obviously all having to give way to the Super Chief as she flies by.

     Texas Zepher wrote:

    But you know, the easiest way to understand operations is not a book but rather to watch or participate in operating sessions that use the various methods.  Perhaps you could scout around and find some local layouts to observe the operation of.  We hosted operating sessions on our layouts for a club from Dallas a couple years ago, so I know there is at least one operations group in the metroplex area.  I would guess there are tens of them.  

     

    Also good advice. I joined the NMRA last year I suppose I could try and look up some of the clubs in my area through them... I'm not very good at going out and meeting people, the OL jokes that if she didn't make me go out I'd be a shut in.. I tell "who needs to go out everything I need is right here, as long as you're home baby" you'd be amazed how long that line has continued to work. Wink [;)] But you are quite right there is no replacement for practical hands on experience and who knows maybe some good friends can be made in the deal too.

    Thanks again for all the advice.

    Peace.

    Coyote

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    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 15, 2007 12:11 AM
     Safety Valve wrote:

    Staging to Piedmont Local

    One local:

    A Scrap yard. One Gondola. You can load this with scrap. This Gondola load could return to Staging and on to a foundry off layout to be converted to metal materials to the specifications required by your D industry "Bolt and Screw Factory" This gondola can return empty. If you loaded this on monday morning and it was picked up monday afternoon, it can arrive at the Foundry (Somewhere out there in the world), be unloaded tuesday am and returned to you on Wed. am.

    <SNIP>

    That's an idea for Peidmont, I left Garnet alone because I did not want to get this post TOO big.

     snagletooth wrote:
        Here's some more ideas on you on Garnet. F. you' have outbound loads of cement in covered hoppers, being the fifties, single bay. G. you'd have outbound loads of crude oil in tank cars, and occasional inbound shipments of pumps and such machinery on flat cars. H.anything inbound or outbound in boxcars or flat cars I. cattle outbound in stock cars J. grain loads out in boxcars, maybe an ocassoinal inbound load of feed or ferelizer, also in boxcars. K.outbound loads of sand or gravel in open hoppers, or ballast for your "railroad" in ballast cars, which are pretty similar to open hoppers.
     

    Safety Valve, Snagletooth,

    Thank you both! This is exactly the sort of information and examples I was looking for... It clarifies things for me 100% I have printed these replies out they give me the sort of backbone examples that allow me to "get" it and build/change on this. This has told me a lot of what I wanted to know -thank you both so much again!

    Thanks and Peace.

    Coyote

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    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 15, 2007 12:14 AM

    Tom;

    Thank you greatly sir I will check them out!

    Peace.

    Coyote

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    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 15, 2007 12:39 AM
     Dave-the-Train wrote:

    At some point you might like to take a look at my posts in this thread...

    http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1002692/ShowPost.aspx

    I've whizzed through your question and glanced at your layout diagram.

    Some ideas that I hope will help...

    <SNIP>

    Dave;

    *whew* wow that is almost over my headDunce [D)]  Thank you for such a highly detailed answer I have printed it out and I am going to read over it a couple dozen times!

    Thank you so much! This looks like some great info so far.

     I am looking forward to the next part!!

    Peace.

    Coyote

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    Posted by snagletooth on Monday, January 15, 2007 12:42 AM
     Post up when you get it sorted out. Id liked to know how it goes. Good Luck, Coyote
    Snagletooth
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    Posted by Dave-the-Train on Monday, January 15, 2007 7:01 AM

    Coyote

    1. I've added to the last post.

    2. Don't worry about it being a lot of material... take it in a bit at a time.  I'm trying to condense 45 years of rail experience and a HUGE subject into an extremely broad overview  right off the top of my head.  There could well be a better way of setting it out.  The way I seem to be going is by diferent people's persectives.

    I think that I've about done with the DS.

    EDIT: No I hadn't!  What i should point out is that, working with the small bit of nRR that you have... a town's worth... oart way along the line... you do and do not need to be aware of the DS.  For you a DS is likely to be some way away and you may at best only have a Tower Operator (if there is a Tower) or a Telegraph Operator at a train Order Station to relay the DS's instructions to the train crews.  (Should that be "trains' crews")?

    The important thing from all this stuff is some sort of awareness that the RR is a huge thing spread over distance and that the bit you model is just a fraction of it.  If you can get this context working in your head a whole bunch of things will become more clear and you will get a whole lot more out of your modelling.  From a dioramma of a chunk of RR you can move up to a miniature word of trains that you represent a tiy scene in/of... (Sorry about the lousy grammar...).

    There's a guy called a Yard Master (on the bigger roads).  He does the same thing in a big yard as a DS does out on the running tracks/mains.  Like the DS a Yardmaster has to be able to see out the back of his head and see into the future... at the same time.

    Okay.

    The Engineer's side of "operating".  This should be easier to get your head round.

    The Engineer's job is to get his train over the road safely as close to the scheduled times (if they are given) as possible.

    That said there are a whole different bunch of trains - and part trains - an engineer can have to deal with.

    • He may pick up a completely set up train in either a yard or on the Main.
    • He may pick up a single loco or a string of locos... and he may have mid-train-helpers if he's running diesels... now called "DP" = Distributed Power.  Mid train Helpers and DP are always diesels in the form of radio controlled locos controlled from the Head End.  This is distinct from Helper Locos cut in mid train or at the rear with their own crew.  If you didn't know it every single steam loco had to have and be worked by its own full crew for practical reasons.  Diesels when run together are usually run "In Multiple" with a single crew in the lead loco SO LONG AS they have MU connections and are compatible (MU = Multiple Unit).  If there is any break in MU continuity the trailing locos must start again with a fresh crew or run dead (i.e. be hauled out-of service) UNLESS they are remote controlled as with DP.  Diesel Locos not running in Multiple or DP but with independent crews are running in Tandem... I don't even know for sure that US practce includes this.  Steam can run with diesel.  The steam/diesel divide will run with seperate crews.  the diesel element would normally run in Multiple so long as the locos could do so.
    • Oops wandered off a bit... Ops are very diverse...
    • Broadly speaking the same conditions apply to Electrics that apply to Diesels... they don't have to be fired etc so they can be worked remotely.
    • The Engineer may pick up a loco (for loco read "one loco or a lash-up big enough to shift his train" once you move from steam to diesel) and caboose... or he may go get the caboose at a very early stage of the proceedings.
    • Until we move into cabooseless ops an Engineer always wants a caboose around unless he is making a light loco movement.  Until that divide he isn't going to take anything anywhere until he has the caboose on the back of the train.
    • After the BIG DIVIDE he wants a FRED or later equivaent.  A FRED is a "Flashing Rear End Device".  This is not a conductor Mooning.  Later technology gets more elaborate and more recent devices tell the head end all sorts of things by radio signal... but that is way too technical... especially as I model right on the divide so that only my Intermodals and unit trains get FREDs and all the rest get cabooses.
    • It is not possible to say that cabooses became obsolete at a given date... because they didn't.  On a whole lot of trains cabooses ceased to be required... but there continue to be a whole bunch of reasons that a caboose is required.  If you are doing modern ops you simply have to look up what the situation is in your area.  (IIRC for Coyote's Ops a caboose would be required in all cases).
    • From here on I'm going to talk caboose... for modern ops read "FRED" for "caboose".  bearing in mind that a conductor - if one is provided - will ride the head end if the train has a FRED as it gets a bit drafty sitting on the last car...
    • Strange as it may seem having a caboose... and a Conductor in it... is an Engineer's concern.  From hooking on to a train to cutting off He absolutely MUST have a caboose.  It is the way that he knows that he has a complete train.  In fact he absolutely MUST have the conductor IN the caboose. It causes a heck of a problem if the Engineer takes the train away a bit too sharply and the conductor fails to join his caboose... you can lose a brakeman or three but NEVER the conductor.
    • The is a real Chicken and Egg war here.  The Engineer runs the train but the Conductor is in charge of the train (except the loco).  If you can figure it out you'll have beaten decades of wrangling.  I'm not even going to try to explain it here.  From a DS's and a towerman's point of view they are BOTH responsible for the train and they can each and/or both be a pain in the butt.
    • The Engineer is responsible for the power and brake force of the train.  The conductor is responsible for what is in the train AND the brake force.  This goes back to steam... if an Engineer got it wrong he could blow up his loco.  (There is some really interesting stuff in the issue(s) of just how you can blow up a steam loco... and the results are real spectacular - never seen them modelled... would it be enough to say that when a steam boiler blows it can remove buildings (note the plural) and remove itself a station length from the point of take-off...  Um... they usually involve dead people...)
    • Brake force I'm not going to go into here.  Except that being able to stop a train short of hitting something more solid than it is is THE issue of moving trains  rather than the ability to to get them rolling.  Keeping a train rolling is such a small issue that it barely figures... it only really depends on having enough fuel... although keeping a train rolling - even if you can't see that it is rolling - is an extremely important part of "operating" a train effectively/efficiently...
    • There are only two things that stop a train... friction (between wheel and rail combined with between wheel and brake shoe/disc/pad) and something bigger than the train... like a mountain grade against it or a solid block of something - like a train...  Engineers, signalling, conductors and towermen/DSs DO NOT stop trains... they attempt to regulate their progress...
    • Does this start you looking at the subject a bit differently?
    • I need some sleep... I will be back
    • Member since
      December 2001
    • From: Northern CA Bay Area
    • 4,387 posts
    Posted by cuyama on Monday, January 15, 2007 10:56 AM

    Long thread on starting ops on a small layout.
    http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/889291/ShowPost.aspx

    The key thing is to start simply and add complexity and challenge over time.

    Some of the responses you are getting are mostly correct, but some of this is way too in-depth for a beginner, IMHO. And some just doesn't make sense and is needlessly complicated, at least in my personal view.

    For car cards and waybills, one can certainly make their own, but an easy approach is to buy the starter set from Micro-Mark.

    One of the best things you can do for yourself to get a good start is to get a good book -- and read it. Of those currently in print, I would recommend Tony Koester's Realistic Model Railroad Operation. (Kalmbach)

    Regards,

    Byron 

    • Member since
      July 2006
    • 2,299 posts
    Posted by Dave-the-Train on Monday, January 15, 2007 11:49 PM

    When it comes down to it you have a choice.  You can find a system of planning and working movements of cars that has been worked out by model RR people to give them what they feel represents satisfactory movements or you can do a lot of reading/research and find out something of what goes on on the real RR in order to create an imitation of a small part of the very large world of RR operations.

    In my view the one will shuffle a few cars between loading and unloading points.  When looked at all this is is movements between points A, B and possibly C to J (?).  There is little going on other than shuffling the pack.  In the other you can aquire the knowledge to have some idea what might be going on in your little bit of the RR.  Trains getting worked straight through.  trains stopping to do specific things for specific reasons.  Of just those two elements you can have an understaning of why a train might run on a particular track, or stop and wait, or why a train might wait before switching cars out rather than just get on and do it. 

    I don't know at what stage one moves to greater complexity.  I don't think that I learnt to drive by pushing toy cars around on the floor as a kid.  When I did learn to drive I had to more-or-less get in there with all the big traffic and some guidance.

    If cuyama thinks that some of th posts just don't make sense he should have the confidence to say which ones and why.

    It's your train.  Enjoy yourself.

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