From my experience, most rail joints fail in conductivity because of poor track installation at those points, not because of any inherent fault with the rail joiners. By the way, you won't get failure issues from corrosion at the rail joiners like some have with Scotch-lok and similar connectors, because there's no galvanic reaction unless you use the wrong type of rail joiners.
Installing feeders on every section of track to avoid (or overcome) continuity problems at the rail joiner is simply over-building in one way to compensate for less-than-adequate work in another, IMO. But hey, that's just my view - to each his or her own. Installing a bazillion feeders isn't my idea of fun, so I'm extra careful when I install the rail joiners, which is why I've NEVER had one fail electrically (or otherwise) since I started doing it the way I described earlier.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
There is another important reason to use more track feeders other than worrying about ,or trying to compensate for, track laying skills. It is very important for DCC operation, and that is "resistance" per linear foot. As you load down the track system with more and more equipment drawing current, the voltage drops begin to add up, and that can spell Trouble.
We spend thousands of dollars on our rolling stock and locomotives, isn't it logical to spend the time and money to wire our layouts to ensure trouble free operation?
After reading many of the replies above, and "should haves", it reminded me of an old saying that I loved in industry: "It is the duty of all good engineers to anticipate all possible problems before they occur, and to have ready corrective actions when and if something goes wrong. However, it is very difficult to remind oneself, that the original objective was to drain the swamp, when your up to your neck in alligators". ( Some words have been changed to protect younger readers from industrial slang ).
My name is Jim, and I don't lay rail very well, but I lay rail better than I paint it, and ballast it, and do scenery, and ... But, I'm getting better.
I'm hoping that the layout I am building will operate well enough that I don't have to rebuild it in the foreseable future. I fiddled with rail joiners, squeezing them in a vice, etc. but I could not convince myself they were tight enough to work forever. I did discover that soldering feeders onto every track section is really not too hard or time consuming, and I discovered that I enjoy doing it! Now I have a layout with lots of track sections joined by unsoldered joiners with a forest of feeders dangling below the table. I hooked up ONE SET of feeders to my DCC system. I'll get to the rest, and a bus eventually. Oh, I do have one piece of track which has NO soldered connections: it's a 25 degree crossing, and I just couldn't figure out a good way to put feeders on it. It does have 4 sets of rail joiners though. My feeders are 20 gauge stranded wire, and will eventually solder them to a 14 gauge solid bus (Romex) not more than 24 inches from the track.
Wanna hear about my turnouts? I soldered one set of feeders to each turnout, AND soldered 30 gauge stranded wire loops between each moveable point rail and it's stock rail. I'm not expecting any electrical problems with them! I did NOT attempt to power the frogs (these are Atlas customline with insulated but powerable frogs). I'll do that in the future if I find I must.
I have an OLD layout (30 years maybe) and it DID have a rail joiner which had failed to conduct power. Once I found the offending joiner, I slid it back and forth once and it's been find ever since.
Enjoy YOUR trains! How permanent is YOUR layout? Will it be a source of frustration if it isn't perfect forever, or are YOU willing to perform troubleshooting and maintenance or rebuild as required?
I am inclined to agree - there's some degree of overkill recommended. I personally find the overkill part of the fun :-)
Jim
Mark,
You make an excellent point - one I'd forgotten when I responded to the original post. To each his own. This may sound snide, but I mean it sincerely: shame on me for suggesting my way was the right way. Whatever I know about layout wiring I learnt from my father. He was an electrician/fine instrument maker and, if you can believe it, even more of a perfectionist than I.
It's too easy to forget that everyone comes into the hobby with different experience and ways of tackling problems. I'll probably continue using feeder wires on every three-foot section because that's the way I was taught and because I enjoy soldering and electrical work generally. I'm also really lazy; so, nothing spalts my bricks more than having to go back and correct earlier mistakes.
Y'all have a good one.
Lynda
I am not going to pass judgement on the "correct" way to wire rail sections or the "correct" wire gauge. Here is what works for me with no maintenance. I use DCC. My bus is 14 gauge stranded wires. Runs are as long as 90 feet from the power source. I use about 4" of 22 gauge solid wire from the rails and solder to 14 gauge stranded wire. The 14 gauge wire is then connected to the bus using suitcase connectors. All rails are soldered. I heat the rail until the solder is "sucked" into the rail joiner. Feeder wires are spaced between blocks. Yes, I have blocks for detection and singnaling purposes. I have check voltages from one end of the layout to the other and there is no more than 0.2 volts difference in the meter readings. Engines run smoothly over the entire layout. So, do I overkill? I don't know. I do know that my railroad runs very well with the standards I use.
Steve B.
Hum, more feeders needed. Boy I have heard that before! I am new to this hobby and was told when my DC MRC 6200 was not doing what it should the main wires where to small (from 6200) to blocks where to small and I needed to up grade the sizes of the feeders. I did, results was the MRC 6200 was junk! I replaced it with a smaller MRC 9500 and ever thing worked as it should.
I have two main lines, B is now DCC with a cheap and under powered E-Z with only 1 amp. B has 7 feeders and is around 95 feet. One of the reason I had not went DCC sooner is fear of more wiring. If I have done the math right there is only 1 feeder per 13.57 feet, far short thand 1 per 3 feet.
So far there has been no problem, yes the joints I attache (spell check) the feeders are solder but that is it.
My track laying skills are much better that what I came to this site with, thanks to the help i have gotton. But, like many things I have been told you have to find what works for you. Start cheap and add as you need to get what you want.
You don't need to spend $12.00 + for ready to run rolling stock, you don't have to have 22" turns to run steam, be Bob Villa to bulid a bench, and don't need feeders ever section of track.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
As in almost every aspect of this hobby, what is acceptable to some is totally inadequate for another. There is no absolute right way to wire a layout. Some, like myself find the DCC/Electrical aspect to be a very interesting and stimulating part of the hobby. There is nothing that I enjoy more than tinkering with a soldering iron and getting things to work. Every single piece of my track is soldered to something. It may be an adjacent piece of flextrack or a pair of feeders. At no point on my layout is electrical continuity dependent on a press fit rail joiner. This is what works for me, and IMO this will significantly add to the long term reliability of my layout. For me the attachment of feeder wires is neither a chore or a great expense. (You can get a lot of color coded feeders out of mis-cut lengths of thermostat wire). If someone else has great reliability and success with a layout connected with 2 wires from the transformer then great! I guarantee that there is someone who thinks my approach to the wiring is overkill. It is just as likely that they have a greater obsession with another aspect of the hobby that is of less interest to me.
I don't think anyone is saying that their method is "The Right One" simply that it is the one that works for them.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Okay, it sounds like everyone is using flex track so I think I'm the oddball here as I'm using sectional track (Atlas True Track NS code 83 in 9" long sections with regular rail joiners).
I'm using 5 amp DCC with 130' of track and 3 sets of feeders roughly equally spaced. It's been running very well for about a year. I've had some discussion on this with Jeffrey Wimberley but now I'm wondering about the future?
How do you prevent electrical conductivity problems with sectional track? Please don't say don't use it, unless that's the only answer.
I might also point out that all my track is loose-laid on top of foam. No glue. It just floats. I did this at first thinking I may want to move things around but I'm happy with the arrangement and won't be moving much. With the plastic built-in roadbed, everything locks together well and doesn't move, except for possible expansion/contraction. Painting the foam and adding scenery tends to hold the track in place as well.
Would appreciate any suggestions.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jwils1 wrote:Okay, it sounds like everyone is using flex track so I think I'm the oddball here as I'm using sectional track (Atlas True Track NS code 83 in 9" long sections with regular rail joiners). I'm using 5 amp DCC with 130' of track and 3 sets of feeders roughly equally spaced. It's been running very well for about a year. I've had some discussion on this with Jeffrey Wimberley but now I'm wondering about the future?How do you prevent electrical conductivity problems with sectional track? Please don't say don't use it, unless that's the only answer. I might also point out that all my track is loose-laid on top of foam. No glue. It just floats. I did this at first thinking I may want to move things around but I'm happy with the arrangement and won't be moving much. With the plastic built-in roadbed, everything locks together well and doesn't move, except for possible expansion/contraction. Painting the foam and adding scenery tends to hold the track in place as well.Would appreciate any suggestions.
If you are going to keep your current layout into the forseeable future, I'd go back and check for loose joiners and replace any that aren't gripping both rail ends securely, and let it go at that. Then again, I seem to be the maverick in this crowd!
Soldering a drop to every track joint is wasteful overkill, electrically. You accomplish the same thing by soldering a drop to every other rail joint such that the rail on either side of the drop is hardwired. The price of doing this is reliance on a single solder joint for direct electrical feed - jeffers_mz
As one who has experienced both power problems from friction-fit rail joiners AND expansion problems ( humidity-controlled basement), I have learned from my own experiences. Perhaps everyone else should do the same. Most layouts don't last 5 - 10 years. (Some of us move).
TIME and ENVIRONMENT work against you. Dirt, dust, oils, cleaning agents, and oxides are your enemies, They become contanimants over time.
A 4'X 8' with flextract mainline will have 6 pieces and 10 friction-fitting rail joiners. Sectional track multiples this X 4.
I don't solder my reail joiners, so I use feeders liberally. Just exactly WHEN does 'RELIABITY' become 'OVERKILL'??
jwils1 wrote: Okay, it sounds like everyone is using flex track so I think I'm the oddball here as I'm using sectional track (Atlas True Track NS code 83 in 9" long sections with regular rail joiners).
Jerry, prior to starting this layout, I had a fairly basic loop of Atlas Trutrack code 83 with a couple of sidings. Admitedly, this was not permanently set up and would be taken apart and re-used. Within a very short time I would get sections where the train would stop dead. I was always able to fix it by taking it apart, cleaning the ends of the track and tightening the joiners with a slight squeeze of a pair of pliers. If you are not glueing the track down and can easily get to problem areas if they occur then I would not be too worried. My fear with a more permanent setup with ballasted track is that fixing a problem later would be quite destructive and a real pain to do.
SIMON:
I think with sectional track I would go with Jeffers' suggested connecting 2 - maybe even 3 - rail sections together which forms a 3 foot section of track, like flextrack.
The caveat is to NOT solder each of the 3 foot sections together, and to leave a 'business card's space between them, allowing for rail expansion.
See if you can put curved 3' sections into the centers of the curves for smoothness, and go and trim from there. Track is the cheapest item to buy.
Well this is they way I approach it, when I buy track I set up an assembly line so to speak.
trim off a few ties in the middle on each piece while the soldering iron is heating up, cut my feeder wires and strip dip in flux ready for tinning. Once that is done lay all the track out and one after another solder the feeders to the bottom of the rails. Then when I am ready to lay track I just place it spike and and cal it done. I can go behind later and tie into the buss line and be runnning and I will know without a doubt each piece of rail is good. Spending lots of prep time up front will get you a better end result.
When I first built my layout I had a single set of feeders for each block. Most blocks were less that 8'. I used 14ga stranded connected to 18ga stranded with wire nuts. The feeders were soldered to the bottom of a rail joiner like the ones Atlas sells. None of the wire runs were over 10'. All was well - for about 7yrs.
I then began to notice that at low to medium speeds the locos would slow ever so slightly when operating at certain spots of the layout. Other places it was more noticeable. No amount of track or wheel cleaning would help.
I decided to find out exactly why this was occurring. I loaded each block one at a time with a .250ma electrical load. Using the voltage drop method, I began to check for losses. Not exactly the wiggle and jiggle method but one that works very well in giving accurate results. I was surprised at what I was seeing on the DMM. Some blocks were losing close to 1v; many were in the .600 to .700mv range. The further from the feeder in each block, the higher the voltage drop. Loose or contaminated joiners caused the losses.
I carefully replaced all of the joiners and added extra feeders in all of the blocks over 3'. I used extra caution to not get any ballast glue on the joiners. A joiner never gets reused. After another eight years a recent test showed my drops all under .080mv. No more slow order areas.
When you initially build a layout, everything will be (or should be) electrically tight. Over time this will change. How much it changes depends on you.
cpeterson wrote:Maybe this is an aside, but the point was brought up that the 3M scotch lock connectors eventually corroded and caused poor electrical connections, wouldn't that be a similar situation in the long run to suitcase connectors? I realize these are what a lot of people are using and even MR has used them in their projects but I havn't yet used them as I hate to redo wiring. What are your opinions?
Dissimilar metallurgy in contact points will mean galvanic action. Over time, there will be a failure. It depends, to an extent, on humidity, but also on any acids, fluxes, and any number of other contaminants on the wires and connectors.
I believe you can purchase an electrical "grease" that inhibits corrosion. It is meant to be used in areas where humidity, salt air, and other agents are constantly bathing the connection or its housing. Home Depot sells it in a smallish tube.
While everyone has their own way of doing things, it still boils down to having to make work arounds to keep the problems from cropping up. Why does everyone keep trying to reinvent the wheel time after time!
Just as the 3M Scotchlocks and using anti oxidant grease. Why not just solder the wires in the first place and the problem is solved/stopped.
But then there are others that have the mind set, no matter how others suggest doing things “I will do it my way just to show you”. And the funny thing is that they eventually do and will abandon the project after finding out that the others were right. But would they ever admit they were wrong NOPE!
If your method is working well there is no reason to go back and change. This whole dissertation was to help out those that are just starting to do the Benchwork, Trackwork wiring.
If your location of your layout is in a climate controlled atmosphere then anything will work – not soldering - Scotchlocks – just twisting the wires together or what ever. But don’t come back complaining later on when the thing fails to operate smoothly
BOB H – Clarion, PA
I'm sure the OP meant to rankle feathers, knowing full-well that the "common wisdom" as proffered by the hobby press is more feeders are better.
I've added more and more feeders feeders each time I've built a layout... that's through hard experience. Admittedly, part of my challenge is that I build mine to move with me as I change assignments, and even to go to shows, so purely mechanical connections will likely be jostled loose.
But why wouldn't you want to play it safe? I just don't get it.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Increasing the amount of feeders and the wire gauge lowers the resistance in the rails, increasing the current handling capacity for those multiple unit lash-ups that multiply the current draw, in addition to bridging mechanical connector failure. I've had fun noodling with big oval test tracks, where I like to see how little I can get away with, but when building a layout it pays major dividends to err on the safe side. Besides, adding extra feeders is one of the less time consuming aspects of layout construction; certainly far easier than that bomb-proof benchwork.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
So after reading this post last night at 2:00am I went over to The Ebay and ordered 4 rolls of atlas' 20 Guage Stranded Wire (2 green and 2 black) I model in N scale and use the Digitrax Super Empire Builder System. My layout is in the blue foam stage, and this past Sunday I finished all the tracklaying! I havea Temporary set up of only two feeders for a layout that fills a 8 x10 room, and I of course see locos slow down in spots etc (this was just to test the newly laid track) I always planned on putting in lots of feeders, and I have gathered from this thread that:
-20 or 22 guage for feeders, 14 or 16 guage for bus wire
-feeders between every 3 and 6 feet (makes sense)
My questions are:
-I use Code 80 Atlas Sectional track on curves especially and most of the layout. I hate the kinky out of shape flextrack brings and only use it sparingly. Should I solder the tracks together? If so, does each rail or only one rail need to be soldered?
Thanks in advance,
Canadian Shield
CanadianShield wrote: So after reading this post last night at 2:00am I went over to The Ebay and ordered 4 rolls of atlas' 20 Guage Stranded Wire (2 green and 2 black) I model in N scale and use the Digitrax Super Empire Builder System. My layout is in the blue foam stage, and this past Sunday I finished all the tracklaying! I havea Temporary set up of only two feeders for a layout that fills a 8 x10 room, and I of course see locos slow down in spots etc (this was just to test the newly laid track) I always planned on putting in lots of feeders, and I have gathered from this thread that:-20 or 22 guage for feeders, 14 or 16 guage for bus wire-feeders between every 3 and 6 feet (makes sense) My questions are:-I use Code 80 Atlas Sectional track on curves especially and most of the layout. I hate the kinky out of shape flextrack brings and only use it sparingly. Should I solder the tracks together? If so, does each rail or only one rail need to be soldered? Thanks in advance, Canadian Shield
It's best to solder flextrack together on curves (IMHO); it's absolutely necessary if you're glueing, rather than nailing, the track down. If you're nailing, you may be able to get away without solder, but I'm skeptical (I tried it once, and it still didn't quite look right). You'll need to solder both rails to avoid a kink.
Dave,
Thanks for the prompt Answer to my question I have one more for you guys. What Device do I use to take the "main power line" down and separate into feeders? Would a Terminal strip work? If so what type am I looking for when I go down to Radioshack?
In the car audio world we call it a distribution block (but the ones for car audio are for 0 or 4 guage wire lol)
Alrighty folks,
Since early this morning I have decided this is my feeder plan:
-20 Guage Atlas Wire for feeders
-16 guage Speaker wire (stranded) for bus supply wire
-Barrier strips to hook everything up
I purchased some on ebay some at radioshack, So weekend wring here I come!
Hmmm. Seems that I'm a real minority in this one. My room-size layout has been in operation for at least 15 years. No feeder wires, other than the initial hook-up, no bus wires, and no problems. Control is walk-around DC, all track is painted and ballasted, and I run heavy trains with multiple locomotives. All track is soldered together at the railjoiners, with gaps cut where required. What am I doing wrong? (By the way, all track is nickel-silver, and I don't clean it unless the installation of scenery causes a localised mess.)
Wayne
It's hard to have too many feeder wires, especially with DCC. There are a couple of spots on my layout that need additional feeders, even though they are only a few feet from a feeder. Again, track joiners, turnouts etc.
Add the feeders, we all need soldering practice anyway.
BRAKIE wrote:The thing to remember with rail joiners is be sure they are tight on the rail..This may require squeezing the joiner with pliers.
doctorwayne wrote: All track is soldered together at the railjoiners, with gaps cut where required.