andrechapelon wrote: In the continuum from builder of railroad models to model railroad operator it sounds like your preferences lie in the direction of model building. I'm not sure I'd agree with your characterization of the value of old issues of MR, RMC, etc. vs. newer ones. The real question comes down to what is the purpose of building a model? Is the building of the model an end in itself or is the building of the model being undertaken so as to be part of an overall scene in which the overriding purpose is to simulate some portion of the rail transportation system in a realistic manner?
In the continuum from builder of railroad models to model railroad operator it sounds like your preferences lie in the direction of model building. I'm not sure I'd agree with your characterization of the value of old issues of MR, RMC, etc. vs. newer ones. The real question comes down to what is the purpose of building a model? Is the building of the model an end in itself or is the building of the model being undertaken so as to be part of an overall scene in which the overriding purpose is to simulate some portion of the rail transportation system in a realistic manner?
It's indeed something of a matter of personal perspective, Andre. But I do build my own models to go on the layout and represent a real, miniature world, although many of them have been entered in contests before doing so. The modeler's ultimate purpose for building his layout certainly factors in but the idea that the general hobby has somehow gone from the goal of basically running trains on a nicely scenicked, interesting layout, over largely to serious and formal operations, is fictious. While MR may constantly hype operations (as they have since the 1950's) as overwhelmingly important, it remains the case that no survey ever conducted among hobbyists has been able to demonstrate that even 20% of model railroaders are seriously operations-oriented. This has never been, nor likely ever will be, the prime focus of the average hobbyist. In that respect, demonstrating more advanced construction/model building concepts and techniques through articles should probably be much more a part of publications such as MR today - just as it was in the past. I'm already aware that there are plenty of other really good modelers out there, so I want to learn from them, not just see pretty, ultra-close-up pictures of bits of their layouts.
As to comparing what was done in the past with what's accomplished today, as it appears in the pages of hobby publications like MR, RMC, or now on the Internet, I can indeed cite you examples of as good or even better model building and equally or more realistic, model photography from the 1950's than actually exists today.
The magazines of yore had the goal of showing you how YOU could advance your modeling skills to create a better layout. Today, they serve mainly to show examples of what someone else has done but usually, I'm afraid, not how you can go about doing it (except maybe to buy it RTR!).
CNJ831
This sure opened up a can of worms, didn't it? Personally, I wouldn't buy back issues on disc. I've got 30 years worth of MR on bookshelves in the train room as well as over 20 years of the NTrak Newsletter and every issue of N-Scale. I prefer to look in the annual indexes for something I want to look up. Besides, if they were all in my computer, I wouldn't have anything to read in bed at night. No room on the bed for the computer. N-Scale has produced a set of discs of back issues, so obviously it can be done and they are a much smaller magazine than MR, but I don't know what format the material is in or if it has indexing or what. Things like newsletters are okay electronically--I receive a couple of ham newsletters and the weekly employee newsletter from the company I used to work for by e-mail. Those I read once and discard, but a full sized magazine would just be too much on the computer. I think Joe is right--MR has researched the subject and concluded it just wouldn't be worth it. However, it would be a good idea for them to have all the issues archived electronically for longevity, and it would be a good way to produce single articles for people who need them.
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Boy, sometimes these things really get into a heated situation.
For my part, I have Model Railroader back to the 60's complete and some spasmodic copies back to the 40's, I always anxiously await my printed copies of MR, TRAINS, Classic Trains, RMC, N-Scale ad-infinitum to arrive. When I can fill the voids at reasonable cost I do.
I am editor of a Model Railway Club magazine, we supply about 160 40 page copies, per month, they are available via our website or hard copy, the members and other organisations get to choose, in this day and age where "everyone" has a computer, we get about 90 that opt for a printed hard copy even though it only has a colour cover and the rest is black and white, the website version is in full colour and yet in keeping an eye on the downloads, there are probably about ten regular takers by this method. Others just don't seem to bother.
Some that have the website access still ask for a hard printed copy, yet only a few to my knowledge have them right back to issue one.
To me there is something nostalgic about collecting and keeping printed copies, yet I also buy auto magazines to read and then donate them to my doctors surgery or other means for others to enjoy, but try and take my printed model and prototype railroad magazines away from me, sitting back reading a good book, magazine etc is a relaxing enjoyable experience, I go back to old issues just because I can, I also have a lot of information on CD's, but as far as I am concerned its the pits sitting at a computer "for everything".
Kalmbach puts a lot of references to "website bonuses" in magazine articles, I hardly ever look at them.
I guess there will always be alternatives as to how we receive and/or want things, but I don't think the hard copy is going to be totally replaced any time soon, just as you can still buy kits when "everyone" wants R-T-R.
Teditor
CNJ831 wrote: jfugate wrote: Other than some prototype information in them, any Model Railroader content over about 25 years old would be merely of historical interest about the hobby itself -- not especially useful, to be sure.I have a complete collection of MR's back to 1960, with a select few issues all the way back to the 1940s -- and other than an occassional prototype piece or wanting to see what the hobby was doing then, I almost never refer to those older issues.Like Brakie, I have to disagree with that position. I have MR back to the 1940's and if I was forced to truncate my collection at one end or the other, I'd definitely choose dropping the last 25 years of the magazine, rather than those earlier issues. I find them a treasuretove of ideas and useful material. Very little in the way of advancing modeling skills has surfaced in the last dozen or so years and you'll find ten times the true modeling content in those older magazines than can be found in the latest ones. In fact, I've won a number of NMRA modeling competitions building models based directly on articles, designs and concepts from the 1950's and 1960's that appeared in MR. No such similarly fruitful material has appeared therein in a long time in my opinion.CNJ831
jfugate wrote: Other than some prototype information in them, any Model Railroader content over about 25 years old would be merely of historical interest about the hobby itself -- not especially useful, to be sure.I have a complete collection of MR's back to 1960, with a select few issues all the way back to the 1940s -- and other than an occassional prototype piece or wanting to see what the hobby was doing then, I almost never refer to those older issues.
Other than some prototype information in them, any Model Railroader content over about 25 years old would be merely of historical interest about the hobby itself -- not especially useful, to be sure.
I have a complete collection of MR's back to 1960, with a select few issues all the way back to the 1940s -- and other than an occassional prototype piece or wanting to see what the hobby was doing then, I almost never refer to those older issues.
Like Brakie, I have to disagree with that position. I have MR back to the 1940's and if I was forced to truncate my collection at one end or the other, I'd definitely choose dropping the last 25 years of the magazine, rather than those earlier issues. I find them a treasuretove of ideas and useful material. Very little in the way of advancing modeling skills has surfaced in the last dozen or so years and you'll find ten times the true modeling content in those older magazines than can be found in the latest ones. In fact, I've won a number of NMRA modeling competitions building models based directly on articles, designs and concepts from the 1950's and 1960's that appeared in MR. No such similarly fruitful material has appeared therein in a long time in my opinion.
This locomotive of Ray Breyer's http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/image/69520614 is being bashed to be part of an NKP roster and, while it might be a prize winner, the purpose of Ray's effort is not simply to bash up a realistic rendition of an NKP H-6d, but to provide his model railroad with a useable piece of freight motive power. The emphasis in the modeling press used to be on the individual item, whereas today it's the item as part of a larger whole. Quite frankly, I think Joe is right, by and large. While there are individual articles/series I'd like to see reprinted (e.g. "Thornburgh Builds A Wabash Mogul", Bob Darwin's series on detailing a Bowser Challenger, W. Gibson Kennedy's series on scratchbuilding Canadian Pacific's Kettle Valley passenger train, etc.), I don't think complete PDF files of past issues would be of much value.
Modeling skills haven't advanced? I don't recall anything this realistic appearing in the MR press back in the 50's/60's: http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/coppermine_menu/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=4
Or this: http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b337/jsix/?action=view¤t=NYC1273cabooseview-5600.jpg
http://www.monon.org/models/mindheim5.jpg
http://www.trains.com/mrr/objects/pdf/mr_lv_7-03_hoosierline_01.pdf
Or even this: http://www.gatewaynmra.org/models/2004regional/2004r-102-1.jpg
It's a Spectrum 2-8-0 altered to match a Frisco 2-8-0. I'll grant you, there are giveaways to its origin, but it's pretty close.
Quite frankly, just looking at some superb models over the Internet is far more useful (in most cases) than reading a 50 year old "how to article" in MR or RMC (with some exceptions).
Mindheim's layout has appeared in MR as has Fugate's. Jim Six has had multiple articles in both RMC and MR. There have been multiple articles on bashing Genesis 2-8-2's and Spectrum 2-8-0's to more closely resemble specific prototypes. If you don't like the Genesis model, a BLI USRA light Mike can be used. And this http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/Trains/2-10-2/ is far more useful than a text article when it comes to kitbashing an IHC 2-10-2 to mimic a CN T-1a. Here's one of Mike Sowsum's other kitbashes: http://tinyurl.com/yg5vcj
Here's a kitbash involving an IHC mechanism and a Rivarossi B&O S-1a boiler: http://bb.1asphost.com/TMSOCR/bo21023.jpg
Another Spectrum kitbash, well, more of a detail job: http://tinyurl.com/yh9dwc
I remember an article by Malcolm Vordenbaum sometime in 1957 wherein he showcased several Penn Line engines that he had de-Pennsified. It was, IIRC, a good article, but the results were free lanced locos. I'd rather see articles such as the one in the August, 2000, issue on creating a UP specific version from the Genesis Mike or the one by Iain Rice (forget the issue) on on making an L&N J-3 from the same starting point, not to mention Iain's kitbash of the Spectrum 2-8-0 into a CV M-5a (sometime in 1999, can't remember the month).
I find the modern mags coupled with a judicious use of the Internet far more useful than most articles in issues of MR/RMC that are 40 or more years old.
OTOH, Bergie, if you're reading this, could you guys reprint the Jim Boyd article entitled "Lagged Boilers Are Easier"? It appeared in the September, 1967, issue.
Andre
There is a scene in the movie where he says something like that to Sam who is playing the piano and singing does he say something similar to play it again? I know something like that is said about a song.
IIRC, the line went something like, "You played it for her, play it for me. Play it, Sam."
But then, it's been a while since I saw "Casablanca".
I have an idea from the middle of the road. Kalmbach frequently recycles article material in printed form like "Top Notch Track Plans," etc. Why not offer these paperback anthologies, both past and present, in paper and pdf format? This would be a lot easier (and cheaper) than scanning MR volumes frm one to one zillion and would actually make a lot of this material more accessible. Possible themes could include "toy train heritage," "a century of car building," "scenery from Hertz to Hayden," a pdf rerun of "Model RR With John Allen," and so on. How about a digital "Great Model Railroads" with a pdf image and a few video snippets?
Good media can be good business as well as great value for the customer.
Happy New Year!
Rich
Scenery is completely new. So is track wiring.
BRAKIE wrote:Actually a lot of those older techniques is just as valuable today as they was back then.Nothing has changed all that much over the years.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cacole wrote:Our club recently threw away hundreds of issues of Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman, NMRA Bulletins, and other publications that were over 10 years old because it was our opinion that anything appearing in them was no longer available or there were better products and techniques available today. We tried and tried but couldn't even give them away. Several people offered to take them, but expected us to pay the postage.
However, for archive purposes, Kalmbach should make good quality digital scans of older Model Railroaders, even if they never intend to sell them to the public. Paper does not last forever and a digital copy could be a handy in-house reference as well as preserve the older issues before they are lost forever.
If back issues sell today for a song, why would digitizing them suddenly make them more valuable? I just don't see how there's any real market for more than a few thousand digital copies of back issues -- and that's only if they were dirt cheap.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
I know I'd buy every year if the cost was right
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Several years ago, National Geographic released all of their issues on a set of CDs. The problem with them is, all you can do is view them on your computer. There's no search function, and you can't print anything, as near as I recall.
The very earliest issues are practically illegible because the printing quality back then was not very good and scanning made the print even blurrier.
Older issues had absolutely no advertising in them, and I imagine that the early issues of Model Railroader also had minimum advertising. Today's issues are almost 50% advertising. Would you really want to pay for a set of CDs that were half advertising, and the companies or products advertised no longer available?
Our club recently threw away hundreds of issues of Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsman, NMRA Bulletins, and other publications that were over 10 years old because it was our opinion that anything appearing in them was no longer available or there were better products and techniques available today. We tried and tried but couldn't even give them away. Several people offered to take them, but expected us to pay the postage.
CurtMc wrote: And therefore there should be no discussion of anything if they are not doing it?There is certainly the tone of your postings.Personally I don't think it is a good idea but it is worth chatting about.
And therefore there should be no discussion of anything if they are not doing it?
There is certainly the tone of your postings.
Personally I don't think it is a good idea but it is worth chatting about.
No one is saying there shouldn't be a discussion.
People are saying that, given Kalmbach's position on the matter, there's really no point in discussing it.
KL
Midnight Railroader wrote: CurtMc wrote: Just because a company has been around does not mean they are doing all the things TODAY that they should be. Many a company that is 50 + years old has failed to adapt to the times, no? Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them. If they thought they could make money doing it, wouldn't they be producing them now? After publishing MR since 1934--and watching competition come and go--I'd imagine they know how to generate revenue, no? Look at the MR website. It's not the internet presence of a company that doesn't understand current technology. They already publish articles in PDF format. In fact, some of their PDFs include video. They clearly "get it." It might just be that Kalmbach knows a little bit more about the pros and cons of doing this than the posters on this board and have based their decision on that.
CurtMc wrote: Just because a company has been around does not mean they are doing all the things TODAY that they should be. Many a company that is 50 + years old has failed to adapt to the times, no? Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them. If they thought they could make money doing it, wouldn't they be producing them now? After publishing MR since 1934--and watching competition come and go--I'd imagine they know how to generate revenue, no?
Just because a company has been around does not mean they are doing all the things TODAY that they should be. Many a company that is 50 + years old has failed to adapt to the times, no?
Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them. If they thought they could make money doing it, wouldn't they be producing them now? After publishing MR since 1934--and watching competition come and go--I'd imagine they know how to generate revenue, no?
jackn2mpu wrote: Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them.
They already publish articles in PDF format. In fact, some of their PDFs include video.
They clearly "get it."
It might just be that Kalmbach knows a little bit more about the pros and cons of doing this than the posters on this board and have based their decision on that.
CurtMc wrote:Just because a company has been around does not mean they are doing all the things TODAY that they should be. Many a company that is 50 + years old has failed to adapt to the times, no? Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them. If they thought they could make money doing it, wouldn't they be producing them now? After publishing MR since 1934--and watching competition come and go--I'd imagine they know how to generate revenue, no?
Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Like was said in Field of Dreams: "If you build it, they will come". Forgive me for going off topic for a moment, but this is a personal pet peeve of mine: NO ONE said "if you build it, they will come" in Field of Dreams. The quote is, "if you build it, HE will come." Also, Kirk never said, "Beam me up, Scotty," and the line "Play it again, Sam" does not appear anywhere in Casablanca. Thanks for letting me vent.
jackn2mpu wrote: Like was said in Field of Dreams: "If you build it, they will come".
The quote is, "if you build it, HE will come."
Also, Kirk never said, "Beam me up, Scotty," and the line "Play it again, Sam" does not appear anywhere in Casablanca.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Railphotog wrote: I think I read somewhere that PDF files can be setup so they cannot be copied or altered. Maybe it was something different, but there are certain things that originators can do to prevent some actions with the files. Anyone know for sure?
The Adobe Acrobat Professional edition does provide copy/print protection.
Haven't several people already mentioned that Kalmback is not interested in doing this for several reasons besides the expense and logistics? Kind of surprised this thread still has legs.
Lynda
I think I read somewhere that PDF files can be setup so they cannot be copied or altered. Maybe it was something different, but there are certain things that originators can do to prevent some actions with the files. Anyone know for sure? If this is correct, then if Kalmbach did do them, copying might not be a problem.
As to the problem of past article being able to be used, I dug out an old copy of one of MR's acceptance forms, and it did not include "one time use" material. It said "I agree that Kalmbach has the exclusive rights of the manuscript". This was from 1988, so things could have been changed since then, but my article would be available. If they paid me it would be great, but it's not something that I would expect.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Midnight Railroader wrote: jackn2mpu wrote: Like was said in Field of Dreams: "If you build it, they will come". Forgive me for going off topic for a moment, but this is a personal pet peeve of mine: NO ONE said "if you build it, they will come" in Field of Dreams. The quote is, "if you build it, HE will come."
He/they - who cares. One is singular, the other is plural. Maybe I should have said that I paraphased the line. Whatever. But the whole point I was trying to make is: if it gets done as a pdf and distributed on cd-rom and the public is made aware of it, then it will get purchased. If MR doesn't make mention of it, asking if modelers would want this, then how will they know whether or not to do it. And, as far as I can remember, it's never been mentioned in MR. Look at it this way - it's another revenue stream for them.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
jfugate wrote:I've spoken with Kalmbach about this when I've met with them about my articles and video PDF project that I'm doing for them and they tell me it isn't likely to happen.The market for MR on PDF (several thousand copies) is just not very large compared to the cost and labor issues. Plus just a scan of the pages would not be enough, you would need someone to go through all the pages and mark words to index ... the manual labor would be extensive.Then there's the issue of payment ... years ago it was not unusual for magazines to buy an original article with "first time North American publication" rights, so now producing the material in PDF form could be considered a second time global publication, which is in violation of the original contract. Just tracking down all the contractual agreements and sorting out the legal issues, determining if the author should be paid more for the second publication, yada, yada ... it could be huge. Unfortunately, much of that material was originally produced with no idea that digitial redistribution might be a future option so the original contract when the work was purchased doesn't allow for that.Long story short -- no market and the production is fraught with technical and legal issues.You can get back issues for a song on eBay and Kalmbach provides an excellent online index ... which is almost as good.
I've spoken with Kalmbach about this when I've met with them about my articles and video PDF project that I'm doing for them and they tell me it isn't likely to happen.
The market for MR on PDF (several thousand copies) is just not very large compared to the cost and labor issues. Plus just a scan of the pages would not be enough, you would need someone to go through all the pages and mark words to index ... the manual labor would be extensive.
Then there's the issue of payment ... years ago it was not unusual for magazines to buy an original article with "first time North American publication" rights, so now producing the material in PDF form could be considered a second time global publication, which is in violation of the original contract. Just tracking down all the contractual agreements and sorting out the legal issues, determining if the author should be paid more for the second publication, yada, yada ... it could be huge.
Unfortunately, much of that material was originally produced with no idea that digitial redistribution might be a future option so the original contract when the work was purchased doesn't allow for that.
Long story short -- no market and the production is fraught with technical and legal issues.
You can get back issues for a song on eBay and Kalmbach provides an excellent online index ... which is almost as good.
Sorry, I don't quite buy the old "we're too small to do this" bit. The ARRL (amateur radio organization in the USA) years ago started selling ALL their back issues of QST, QEX, and some other magazines on CD rom. Nobody seemed to get in a tizzy about royalty payments or original contract language; heck some of the articles go back to the early 20th century (1934, IIRC).
The League doesn't have a huge in-house staff to do this, they just chugged away at it and got it done. And, you don't have to index every word - the ARRL didn't. Acrobat allows one to do searches in a document, so indexing isn't needed. Trains - hobby; amateur radio - hobby.
There doesn't seem to be a market because MR doesn't push it in the magazine. If they wanted to do it, they'd find a way. Like was said in Field of Dreams: "If you build it, they will come". Make people aware of it and it WILL be purchased.
Why am I the only person that wants this in a Star Trek viewing display userformat???? Oh thats right. Star Trek is my "other" obsess- er hobby.
LOL
James
Model Railroading magazine is already selling PDF versions of its now former magazine. Here is a link: http://www.modelrailroadingmag.com/2005_cd.htm Check out the free sample issue.
Jim
This same question appears over and over at intervals. Early in this forum's history a magazine rep (I can't recall just who it was any more) postered a reply clearly stating that MR had considered the project but had no intention of doing anything about it in the foreseeable future.
Incidentally, the first few times this question surfaced here, numerous posters indicated what they'd be willing to pay for such a product and, to say the least, their figures would have never made it worthwhile for Kalmbach to consider anyway.