Plastic v. Brass

[Anonymous]

I can't afford brass, and besides just about everything I need is made in plastic.

[Anonymous]

Its not what it is made of, but what it is made to resemble, that is most important to me.

Brass models generally rate better for durability, but are also very high in cost, and in the case of older ones, do not run so well out of the box. Yes you can upgrade the guts with newer parts, but that only drives up the costs even further.
Plastic models are cheaper, and are getting much better in running and detail quality. But its rare that you'll see some one-road, low in number prototype done in plastic. The demand is to low.

Alvie.

[Anonymous]

Top end modern brass (you DID say money was no object), blows the friggin doors off plastic.
Plus in 20 years, it will hold its value and most importantly, if it dies, a good mechanic can fix it. Just try to find parts for a 20 year old plastic model!!
I can work on brass mechanisms. With a NWSL catalog under my arm, I can bring a dead one back to life. I doubt that will be so plastic stuff dies!

[Jetrock]

If there were ***ANY*** plastic models available for the things I like to model most, I suppose I would buy them. When I do buy brass, I don't buy four-digit-pricetag monster master brass, because I don't like big engines anyhow.

I own three brass locomotives. The most expensive was $130, the cheapest $50. They have NEVER been made in plastic, so if I wanted to own a Baldwin-Westinghouse Class D steeplecab or a Birney single-truck safety car, brass was THE ONLY WAY TO GO. If anyone produced them in plastic, I'd be happy but I don't think it is going to happen any time soon. On another plastic vs. brass thread, some user mentioned "EVERY ENGINE EVER MADE IS AVAILABLE IN PLASTIC!" I replied with a list of things I would give my eye-tooth to see in plastic (but do not exist) but that user got very, very quiet after that point...

So, in general, if you model common stuff then there is plenty of plastic for you. If you model obscure things, you may have to go brass--which MAY mean spending a lot of money but does not HAVE to mean that.

[cjcrescent]

Jetrock;

I LOVE IT!!!, "Every engine ever made is available in plastic!" Wish I had seen it. I'm sure I really would have blown a gasket. I probably have a list as big as yours of what I would like to have but is not made at all.

Since I model SRR in steam, lets see what is and what's not available, plastic or brass. Start with best known SRR locos, Ps-4's 5-heavy Pacifics, 3-brass, 2-with elesco FWH, 1-with Worthington FWH, 2-different tenders, 2-plastic, 1 needs major redetailing to make a Ps-4 of either type, 1 needs trailing truck changed. These were the only USRA 4-6-2 types on the roster. Where are the P, P-1, P-2, P-3's? None of these are USRA's. 2-mikes, brass Ms-4's USRA heavy clones . One plastic USRA heavy, needs major redetailing. 1-Ms-7 Brass, only because prior WWII, was ERIE RR, real odd looking compared to rest of roster with the only vandy tenders on roster. 3-light USRA's Ms-3's, 1-brass, 3-plastic again specific detail highly lacking on all, but plastic is worse. 1-Ms mike, brass real POS, # specific 4501.
Where are the rest of the pre USRA mikes, M, Ms, Ms-1,Ms-2, or the Ms-5 & 6's which were converted from light 2-10-2's. 4-0-8-0 switchers, USRA 3-brass, 1 plastic, none are specific, SRR never owned USRA 0-6-0's, so there are none of those usable. There is one brass 0-6-0 that is close in boiler shape and size of clinders and drivers are close, but to make SRR results in major rebuilding.
What plastic can I use to give me class B's,(4-4-0's), C's (4-4-2's), D,E,F (4-6-0's) 1-F-1 4-6-0 brass # specific-949. 1 F-11 4-6-0 plastic, needs major redetailing to make correct.
How about, G, (1 old kit long OOP), H, I, J, K, Ks-1, Ks-2, Ks-3, 2-8-0's. There is one 1-Ks 2-8-0 brass. Each one of the 4-6-0 & 2-8-0 classes were so different from the other, that not even driver, boiler, or cylinder size were similar, most were built prior to 1900, except the class K's, and most lasted until after WWII.
Here again where are the class L shays, class L, (same class as shay, SRR considered the shay an articulated) articulated 2-6-8-0, Ls-1 2-8-8-2, Ls-2 2-8-8-2. S-class 2-10-2, 4 brass USRA's,3 lights and 1 heavy, 1-USRA light kit, and a new plastic USRA light just announced. We do almost as well with USRA light mountains, with 2 Brass Ts-1's, 1 kit, and one plastic. SRR didn't have heavy 4-8-2's.
This does not even cover the oddballs that all RR's had. There is one "Tractor" in brass a 2-10-2+2-8-0, the 2-8-0 mech is mounted under the tender. This of course leaves out the 2-8-2+2-6-2 variations. I haven't even touched on SRR 3' narrow gauge 2-6-0, 2-6-2's and others. And all of this is just steam, never mind the diesels like the big Trainmasters that aren't available at all. Both plastic versions, Atlas & Athearn, come with the standard high ends. SRR bought their locos with the ends cut down to standard EMD height by FM to allow access, via regular drop steps on the Geep's these were run between.
Sorry about the rant, but at times it really irks me to hear a blanket statement like that.

[darth9x9]

If money is no object, Overland's RTR brass is a no brainer. They even come with Kadee couplers installed.

[orsonroy]

I only buy brass when I can't get an engine or signature car any other way. Looking at my brass collection shows three cabooses that would be real PITA's to scratchbuild, three steamers that will never be offered any other way, and five Orienta Powerhouse USRA mikes that are actually the best and most affordable choice for diehard USRA mike fans (Athearn's are POS, as are IHC's and Bowsers, "real" brass is too expensive, and BLI's aren't out yet).

In all cases, I prefer plastic or cast metal over brass. The collector's market has driven the prices of new brass through the roof, making it out of reach for most (including myself). And from what I've seen, I superdetail steam at least as well as the brass manufacturers, plastic runs better than brass (I've worked on more brass steamers than I own), plastic is more DCC- and sound-friendly, and plastic costs around 1/10th of brass. Add up all the variables, and it's plastic for me!

[Jetrock]

Heck, cjcrescent, my list wasn't even that long--all I was looking for was a couple of Niles or Hall-Scott interurban cars and maybe a Baldwin-Westinghouse or 60-ton GE steeplecab in plastic! For us juice jacks and trolley-jollies, we pretty much have to go with brass, scratchbuild, or build LaBelle kits (and, as the saying goes, "If you want to learn how to scratchbuild interurbans, build a LaBelle kit!")

[cjcrescent]

Jetrock;
I know about the LaBelle kits. They are fun though. Have several of their passeneger cars.

Yeah, it can be frustrating to try to model a RR and there be little or nothing to model with. I know that there will never be any RR to have every engine available in brass or plastic, except maybe a shortline that has only one or two locos. Some RR's like ATSF, NYC, PRR, and UP have had large selections of locos on the market at one time or another, but even with these giants, not every class of engine is or ever will be available.

[Anonymous]

If money were no object, I'd be buying Overland factory-painted brass. like a previous post. However, given that one brass loco would probably cost more than my whole collection of plastic models, I can't afford to buy brass. Interestingly some manufacturers seem to be making locos with the best of both - Bachmann's new OO scale Class 66 will supposedly have some etched-brass detailing parts factory fitted to enhance the look of the loco.

From what I've seen here, brass locos seem to be rather like older Land Rovers - you can always repair them and get them running again as the basic design is solid and the parts are still available, or more recent parts can be used. In this respect, brass has an edge over plastic if you're looking for locos that will still be running for many years to come.

[JerryZeman]

There isn't a plastic Great Northern or Northern Pacific steam engine available in HO, so that kind of narrows down my preferences.
regards,
Jerry Zeman

[Anonymous]

I like plastic because it is easier for me to add details and/or kitbash. No soldering is required with plastic.

[Anonymous]

I didn't vote, as more choices and different wording are needed in order to produce meaningful results. Others have already made the key points, but one that perhaps needs to be emphasized is diesel versus steam. While I am mostly steam myself, I model the popular transition era and have some diesel (all plastic) just for the heck of it. I can therefore note from personal experience that there are many truly excellent plastic diesel models in HO (only scale I have experience with) and they run flawlessly - better by at least a small margin than even the best-running brass diesels. Its hard for me to see any reason to invest the extra money in brass diesels especially since diesels are also intrinsically easier to detail, modify and paint than steam. Yet its an interesting paradox that diesel brass has been far more affordable than steam brass for at least 25 years. This fact suggests that the Asian manufacturers have high profit margins and offer diesel brass at lower prices because of the plastic competition.

With steam, on the other hand, outside of the USRA stuff and a handful of very popular locos such as N&W J, or a few articulateds, there is no practical alternative to brass for those who model a prototype. (Same comments also apply to cabooses). Even with the models that I mentioned, it has been only quite recently that quality plastic has come to the steam market (and yes, my LifeLike N&W Y-3 2-8-8-2 is a great model). Quality, accurate plastic models of steam have only been made possible by the incredible run-up in brass steam prices.

I satisfied most of my steam needs via the brass market in 1988-95. About three years ago, I stopped even looking at brass - I simply cannot justify the necessary expenditure even if I can technically afford it. After all, this is only a hobby. With seemingly no end in sight to the price inflation, one wonders what the future of the brass market can be. Certainly if I were starting in the hobby today, I would never consider brass and presumably would therefore have to stick to diesels.

[Anonymous]

Even though brass models are very, very nice, well....... most of them.... I still prefer a plastic model. I think that the plastic holds paint better and it is also easy to fix if an item breaks off. I personally do not have alot of experience with soldering brass engines together, but it seems that if you are running a big boy and it has some mishap which causes a small detail part to bend and/or break off, the repair job would be huge! Not that i don't take good care in my models, but in a house like mine, there is always "that guy" or the "not me, i didn't do it" guy running around. Where, if the item was made out of a plastic shell, it would be 500 times easier to repair. AND nevermind scratches. i could only imagine trying to repair a deep scratch on a brass model. I wouldn't even know where to start. but again, on plastic, putty, sand, paint, DONE!

[Ole Timer]

Well .... if you're going to leave the brass engines just set and tarnish and never use them like almost all of them are ... fine . But myself I did'nt get into trains to have a museum ... I use them . I have 3 types ... but my non-painted brass ones look stupid on a realistic layout at the local clubs . Did anyone ever hear of diecast ? Metal ... lower priced than brass ? Yes you can highly detail plastic . And as far as future huge values for brass ... forget it ... Ebay killed that ... don't go by these book values ... someone's dream that you can never get on the market ! Now do you want to get into scale issues ?? LOL

[CAZEPHYR]

If you have been running model trains for forty years or so, the answer was always brass until about 1990 or so.   This has changed in the last five to ten years since my favorite Big Boys and Challengers can be had in plastic with details that rival most of the Key and Overland models.  

I never thought I would purchase Die Cast metal engines until the Trix Big Boy and the Lionel Challenger came out, and I have the PCM also.

So as time changes, so do our habits.  They always say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but it turns out we can change with the times and learn new tricks after all.     

Plastic versus Brass?   Somedays I like brass and other days I like plastic. 

[tomikawaTT]

IMHO, it isn't the material the manufacturer used to fabricate the model that counts.  The important things are how it looks after painting and weathering and what use is made of it.  A pristine brass (fill in the blank) in a glass case on somebody's mantel impresses me a lot less than a nicely weathered train set B&O dockside 0-4-0 shuffling cars on somebody's model of Pratt Street.

I personally own models made from just about everything except compressed cow manure, and every single one comes with fond memories about its acquisition, construction and use.  My favorite mainline steamer has a brass superstructure on a pot metal frame, my favorite catenary motor is brass, my favorite diesel-hydraulic is cast pot metal, my favorite EMU cars are brass and my favorite DMU cars are built up from card stock with stamped brass ends.  On my short line, my favorite steam loco (at the moment) is a heavily kitbashed plastic 2-6-6-2, one of my very few plastic locomotives.  My freight cars, or at least a major percentage of them, are steel - honest-to-Murgatroyd tinplate, of correct scale size, proportions and appearance.  I like them all just about equally.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[SteamFreak]

If money weren't a factor, I'd probably go for brass. There was a local shop that dealt only in brass locos near me with a painted Big Boy that had me drooling all over the display case.  It beat the Trix version hands down, at least aesthetically, but I couldn't justify the $2K price tag. The owner closed up shop in the late 90's, because guys would come in only to shoot the breeze, drink his coffee, and gawk at all brass jewelry. I think he went to mail order, but I don't know if he's still in business. Some of the painted brass I've seen on Evil Bay, like a Samhongsa NP A5 Northern are just gorgeous.

Nelson

[Great Western Rwy fan]

I have 2 brass Ho models,One is a Ken Kidder McKeen motorcar,The other is an Empire Midland 2-10-0 Decapod #90 Great Western Railroad,I don't know how many of these were made by Empire but someone scribbed 1-8 inside the original box.In any event I know they didn't make many of the GW Locomotive.
I bought both of these because the GW had them.other then that I mostly buy plastic proto 2000 as the detail is as good as brass or close anyway,And the price is great.

[Charlie]

For me, its brass passenger cars and plastic locomotives as I model the 90's and I model small business/business excursion trains

Ch

[Virginian]

My first locomotive was a brass N&W Class J.  That was the only way one could get one back then.  I eventually got some Class As and Ys, and a K2a streamlined.  I could not bring myself to part with the bucks for an N&W 4-8-0 or a VGN 2-8-4 or a 2-10-10-2.  As the plastic As and Ys became available I sold brass and got the new plastic locos.  I am down to two brass (sentimental value and still no plastic K2a) and I am quite happy, because fidelity to prototype (within reason) and good smooth running are all I cared about.  Sound is a nice bonus.

I have a few "sort of" VGN 2-8-2s, and I still "need" an N&W M, but I am still unwilling to spend the bucks (and I do not have nearly the money I once did) for either a brass M or MB.

I think the key question everyone needs to ask is do they want or need a loco that is not available any other way, or do they want the extra fine fidelity of a brass engine.  It's your money.

[Anonymous]

I'm also thinking it's a little artificial to ignore diecast - especially what's available out there recently.

Between that and the amazingly improved plastic of the last few years, I don't feel any need for brass other than things that can't be got any other way. Unfortunately, with a fetish for streamliners - particularly steam, it's often a choice between questionable quality older Rivarossi (selling for insane prices on E-bay, usually) and Brass.

I was thrilled to see BLI come out with the PRR T-1 and announce the Dreyfus Hudson coming soon. Now if they'd just hurry up with a Hiawatha, John Wilkes and half a dozen others, I'd not have any need for brass at all.

[rrebell]

Your wording is extremely bias toward a vote for plastic. Why should one be comparing an excellent plastic loco with a so-so brass one?

In fact, my passion is camelback locomotives. These do not come in plastic with any accuracy of detail what so ever. And when it comes to steam locomotives in general, brass is it a no-contest winner, even compared to those new plastic models that are in the $500+ range. Anybody who owns brass examples of such is fully aware of this.

JB

Since you are into camelbacks and seem to know brass, I need a coulple of small ones for my road and would like your reconmodations, need a lot of details on them as they will be seen with proto 2000 stuff.

[rrebell]

As was originally posted "price no object" Then I would definately go Brass for the following reasons: More durable and robust, will not devaluate but rather increase in value with time, you can actually get "hard to find" types, though in limited quatities. They will stand the test of time.

Regards
Fergie

Will not devalue, have you cheaked the price of brass these days and compared them to 4 or 5 years ago, many have gone way down in price especially the climax and the medium size shays.

[dinwitty]

depends on the model and circumstances.  and your available money.

say a nickel plate berk is in brass and plastic, and really is in various forms.

If all were the same price and general quality I'll go to the brass.

Thats not the case tho.

I think since plastic prices have gone up, they've actually went to improve the detail quality to near brass. Thats cool.
I hope that trend continues and a great variety of  model equipment steam and diesel become more available.

But for that rare model that doesnt get made or wont prove profitable any other way, it will generally go brass and more expensive.

I have 3 Rivarrosi 2-8-8-2's and I have gone thru reworking one of them putting a motor in the middle, repainting, etc, it pales to the new PCM, I want that so bad.

I have regeared my RR 2-8-8-2 and you have no idea how great it is seeing it crawl, it makes the effect so much bigger when dragging a lead of cars.

[Amtrak_Titan]

I would prefer getting Plastic models instead of Brass models. Brass costs like $500 or more. There are a lot of Plastic models avalible. The Plastic are cheaper than brass.

[Texas Zepher]

An interesting topic to bring up again after being started over two years ago.  I saw the writing on the wall when Lifelike started their Heritage series and began selling off my brass collection while the prices were still fairly high.  With the advancement of technology I now believe that almost all prototype models will eventually be made in plastic.   The Precision Craft GN S-2 is a classic example.  In fact, this just happens to be one of the types I sold for big bucks back then.

[edkowal]

If plastic models had been available in On2 in the '70s, I would have bought them.  They weren't.
So I bought brass engines.

-Ed

[modelmaker51]

For me, the material a model is made of is completely irrellanvant. Fidelity to prototype is what matters. I buy for price and modify as needed.

As someone else mentioned, I'm not building a museum, I'm building a model Railroad.

As far as brass being more durable, that's a lot of b.s. As a custome builder I've spent a lot more time rebuilding brass locos, than I ever will plastic. Today's engineering-plastic gears and drive lines are far superior to the old brass and nylon gears and they're a lot quieter too.

Repairing a dropped brass loco requires a lot more work than a plastic one, which can usually just be snapped back together.

So, while a brass loco may be more detail specific, one can easily add details to either to get the model you want, and as far as longevity is concerned, anyone ever see plastic tarnish, or rust, or disintegrate. Doesn't plastic have a lifetime of some 10000 years? by which time all that expensive brass will have turned back into dust.

Bottom line, buy the model you need at the price you can afford, in 100 years we'll all be dead and who's going to care then?

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Almost any of my cars - either passenger or freight - are plastic. Perhaps only 2% of my cars are brass. This is because I am running prototypically long trains - 100 or more cars in case of freight trains - with only one steam engine - as it was reality.
But without exception my engines are brass. Most important reason is the fairly large variety available. I am running steam locomotives only - and the plastic industry offers only 4 or 5 models of prototypes interesting to me (the UP Big Boy and Challenger don't belong to these).
Next reason is accuracy. In general even older brass engines are more accurate than recent mass produced models because they reproduce a specific prototype class of a specific railroad. To understand what I mean here are examples: the Proto2000 0-8-0 steamer has been released with a tender in appearence being closest to a NYC tender - but not exactly! And of course it is more away from any other road. Then it is much more justified to me to spend 250 or 300 bucks for a brass engine than 200 or more for that plastic thing. And detail ommisions on older brass models like brake rods or cab to tender deck apron or sand lines or truck chains etc. I can add by myself. Next example are all mass produced articulateds. On all these you will find also the REAR engine being pivoted! Of course with all necessary compromises in detail to allow that! What the hell is all the other detail worth when a discriminating modeller can run these only on straight track?!
And today's brass imports feature a detail level where nearly all things being of importance to me at that scale are present. And the running qualities of these are also unmatched! I have a CB&Q O-5b  and a PRR S1 from Challenger, and these run like butter! NOTHING to hear except the usual rolling noise from between wheels and track!!! Extremely slow these can crawl, too. Nothing more one could wish. Actually I have not one single bad running engine. The older models are louder (often very loud), but usually they run very fine. Add a new motor, and in some cases new gears, and the noise is history.

Because I am steam loco mechanic, fireman and engineer I am a detail fanatic. Compare an Overland N&W class J with a BLI, or a KEY or PFM C&O Allegheny with a Rivarossi, or any brass 2-8-4 with the Proto2000 (these have the most ugly model wheels (drivers) I have ever seen - also the recently "improved driver appearence" only causes marvel that this is possible today), or a Key PRR K-4 with any mass produced one, or a Key or Precision Scale NYC Niagara with the BLI, etc. - you will find omissions over omissions on the plastic engines. And those plastic tenders full with "coal". A situation present in reality only during few minutes after leaving the station. And not only full they are, but in most cases the coal load is also extremely flat - I did never see a realistic plastic "coal" load. I would have to cut it out and detail the tender's interior. And even that wouldn't be the hardest part on some models.
And since I am not the worst in soldering I don't trust in gluing on locomotives as I did before.

With brass models I get what I am looking for: a good to breath taking accurate model of a specific prototype with only few compromises in detail, and - by the way - to hold a model made of brass in the hands and to feel its solidity and robustness is something completely different than with a plastic one. The pleasure to set this on track and watch it running for me is much bigger than with a plastic model.
I would have a large problem to spend $500+ for a Trix or PCM Big Boy or a Rivarossi Allegheny or other ones because they all do not have the detail and appearence I am looking for (and are not made of brass), and because the efforts to redetail these to become a credible representation of their prototypes is huge. But it is much more easy for me (by far I do not belong to the people called "rich" - I simply buy very few models a year - f. e. I needed 8 years to complete my 100 car through freight train) to spend $1000 or more for a GN R-2 or C&O Allegheny in brass, and to add these few omitted details to make a complete and accurate model.

I am not interested to see the plastic locomotives regarded as something bad as concerning most of them I agree to any opinion from "They look nice" to "They are affordable". But the thing I cannot agree is the statement that plastic (or die cast) has reached or even surpassed brass qualities.

Since ebay some brass models are found much easier than before and therefore are somewhat cheaper, but there are still notable exceptions. But I don't care for the value of brass over time because I don't sell any of them.